DAD's SMASH LAB UPDATED 1/22 - Wizard Kick Canceling 101; "Z1gman Comboing"!!!

Swoops · Jan 8, 2009

Flying Dutchman said:
I've been into OoS for a while, there are some things that can be done. You have your usual shieldgrab, but you can also (much more useful) drop your shield and quickly reverse pivot grab... Your opponent can space himself, but if he has lag, you can nail him with this.

Two TAP JUMP options OoS are of course, the up B and the Quake. Never use the Quake, I find it not useful at all. Your opponent will have to be severely miss-spaced if you want to him with it. Up B OoS is somewhat notable, due to having Grab Armor. Meaning, lagless attacks could be punished - any follow-up could be grabbed (you would still take damage) and your opponent will get a load of damages AND not get their second jump back. This is useful for some characters with bad recoveries and if you're by the edge. The low hitstun on this can get you another hit in the face. Overall not something I would turn Tap Jump off for.

Grab armor, but it's 20 frames >.<. Honestly I'd rather go for n-air or u-air OoS, which I believe are 14 and 13 frames respectively at most. Ganon's jump animation is 7 frames right?

Also, I've now been able to successfully buffer reverses out of shield drop. Meaning, as soon as I drop my shield I can do a turn around jab, d-tilt (with only a bit of practice,) or standing grab.

Z1GMA · Jan 8, 2009

"Buffered Dash Canceling"

Dude.. This stuff is deep!
Good job DAD!

:034: · Jan 8, 2009

Swoops said:
Grab armor, but it's 20 frames >.<. Honestly I'd rather go for n-air or u-air OoS, which I believe are 14 and 13 frames respectively at most. Ganon's jump animation is 7 frames right?

Also, I've now been able to successfully buffer reverses out of shield drop. Meaning, as soon as I drop my shield I can do a turn around jab, d-tilt (with only a bit of practice,) or standing grab.

Yeah, true. A full hop nair or uair OoS is certainly a lot more reliable than up+b. I wouldn't recommend it, but it's okay to keep your options open.

hyperstation · Jan 8, 2009

Shadow Nataku said:
@DAD
Also about the IASA dodge buffering to extend Ganon's hitbox, isn't that essentially the same thing as the Angelic step Pit players have? Ganon was able to use it as well and it was sorta briefly covered in a older guide here.

But I'm wondering if you did a reverse dodge buffer would it even double the space Ganon can cover with the buffered FTilt? I seem to recall remembering something about how you can actually extend the distance covered by that move.

Yes. It is exactly the same momentum glitch as we used in the Demonic Step. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say about reverse dodge buffering, but anything to potentially push this slide a little further is cool with me.

Flying Dutchman said:
One more thing that is very useful but that I haven't exactly been paying much attention to is Upsmash Out of Shield. The 'technique' from Melee still exists, but it isn't exactly wide-spread for Brawl. To perform it, simply do an upsmash... If you have tap jump on. Without tap jump, you can simply use the jump button... I'll explain:

1. Hold your thumb over Y and A.
2. Hold up on your control stick.
3. Roll thumb from Y to A.
4. UPSMASH!

It's basically the same motion as the Thunderstorm, just with up. I honestly don't know why I haven't been paying attention to this... It's very useful, if you can find the situation for it.

Hope this helps a little. I haven't been contributing a whole lot lately, have I?

EDIT: Oh, here's the link to my old thread. Maybe you can find some stuff in it?: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181639

EDIEDIT: BDC looks like a waveland.. It can be pretty useful, more so in teams, though when you're dealing with multiple opponents..

Regarding the USmash: I keep Tap Jump off for a number or reasons that we won't go into right now. I used to find the Y->A USmash a problem, but as soon as I realized what was actually happening, it not only ceased to be a problem, but it also opened up a number of options. This is, as I'm sure you know, FD, called "Jump Canceling," and it can be used for a number of things in Brawl. One of them is to initiate a slide into a USmash similar to a Dash Canceled USmash. The reason I'm going into this right now is because I think you MAY be onto something here. Jump Canceling happens extremely quickly, and perhaps we can use this to our advantage OoS. I'm not sure.

Good contributions, all. We're getting some really good sh*t going right now. FD, I'll check out your old thread to see what can be gleaned. (We haven't forgotten about you, old buddy! FD = O.G.)

:034: · Jan 8, 2009

hyperstation said:
Regarding the USmash: I keep Tap Jump off for a number or reasons that we won't go into right now. I used to find the Y->A USmash a problem, but as soon as I realized what was actually happening, it not only ceased to be a problem, but it also opened up a number of options. This is, as I'm sure you know, FD, called "Jump Canceling," and it can be used for a number of things in Brawl. One of them is to initiate a slide into a USmash similar to a Dash Canceled USmash. The reason I'm going into this right now is because I think you MAY be onto something here. Jump Canceling happens extremely quickly, and perhaps we can use this to our advantage OoS. I'm not sure.

Jump Cancelling is odd in this game, I find. They work at about the same mechanics as in Melee, just that they now also work without the control stick. The Upsmash OoS was possible in Melee for the same reason... It's just a lot easier in Brawl. It's **** with some characters with really good upsmashes, like Fox.

We can definitely use upsmash as an okay function OoS. It's certainly something worthy of testing, at least.

Good contributions, all. We're getting some really good sh*t going right now. FD, I'll check out your old thread to see what can be gleaned. (We haven't forgotten about you, old buddy! FD = O.G.)

What tha f is OG supposed to mean? XD

@HomE · Jan 8, 2009

Flying Dutchman said:
What tha f is OG supposed to mean? XD

Original Gangster

Ray_Kalm · Jan 8, 2009

2009 is really coming out good for us, we've found several new functions/techniques over the past week, now we just have to learn them. Most of Ganon's potential really relies on his ground game/tactics.

:034: · Jan 8, 2009

@HomE said:
Original Gangster

I lol'd ~~10lols~~

Shadow Nataku · Jan 8, 2009

hyperstation said:
Yes. It is exactly the same momentum glitch as we used in the Demonic Step. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say about reverse dodge buffering, but anything to potentially push this slide a little further is cool with me.

Well it might be nothing.

But we know the Demonic Step distance can be controlled simply by how long you wait before inputting the command doubling the momentum. However I noticed you can do a demonic step than go straight into ANOTHER buffered dodge (since all demonic step seems to be is a dodge buffer to begin with) immediately after the turn around basically adding even more distance to your attack.

Its a tricky move though hence why I'm not sure how useful it'd be but it does cover some significant distance since you're basically just covered ground equal to 3 Ganon's.

ShinGaruda · Jan 8, 2009

Reversing the direction of the attack makes the move less predictable.

Just in case no one has really taken it into consideration.

Big O · Jan 9, 2009

Swoops said:
I mean all of the OoS options ganon has are just a tad too slow for a lot of stuff. Shield drop frames wold be nice to have though if anyone could provide them.

Shield drop has 7 frames of lag meaning a shield drop jab hits on frame 15.

Z1GMA · Jan 9, 2009

What about Buffered Dash Canceling+attack from the edge of a platform? can it cancel the afterlag of a grounded attack, and make you fall off instead?

hyperstation · Jan 9, 2009

Z1GMA said:
What about Buffered Dash Canceling+attack from the edge of a platform? can it cancel the afterlag of a grounded attack, and make you fall off instead?

I'm not sure I entirely understand the question, Z1GMA. Could you try to explain it a little better?

Z1GMA · Jan 9, 2009

Hmm... My english won't allow me =(

You can buffer a dash near a ledge so that you fall off, right?
Ganon__BD__ledge>fall

Can you attack right before falling off, so that the fall cancels the afterlag of the attack?
Ganon__BD_Attack_ledge>fall

Ray_Kalm · Jan 9, 2009

Down throw > Buffered dash canceling.

Leads you right next to your opponent free of harm.

hyperstation · Jan 9, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Down throw > Buffered dash canceling.

Leads you right next to your opponent free of harm.

I don't follow. I haven't really understood the last few posts in here, actually. lol. Help?

I've been using both BDC->buffered spot dodge and spot dodge -> sliding ftilt in game with nice results.

Ray_Kalm · Jan 10, 2009

hyperstation said:
I don't follow. I haven't really understood the last few posts in here, actually. lol. Help?

I've been using both BDC->buffered spot dodge and spot dodge -> sliding ftilt in game with nice results.

No, it's what I literally meant. Dthrow already limits the opponent's options, we could avoid those limited options by BDC and land right next to whomever we're fighting.

hyperstation · Jan 10, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
No, it's what I literally meant. Dthrow already limits the opponent's options, we could avoid those limited options by BDC and land right next to whomever we're fighting.

OHHHHHH. I thought you were saying Dthrow > (is better than) BDC. I like what you're proposing, Kalm. Dthrow -> BDC -> buffered spot dodge -> sliding jab/Ftilt. mmmmmmm. Sounds like we have some testing to do.

Ganon is getting so freaking crazy, man.

Swoops · Jan 10, 2009

Big O said:
Shield drop has 7 frames of lag meaning a shield drop jab hits on frame 15.

Thank yoooou Big O, that is **** helpful.

It's official everybody, n-air OoS is a pretty viable tactic. More duration than jab, quicker than jab (1 frame >.>,) more area to its hitbox, and safer all around. U-air is just a bit quicker and no lag whatsoever, but the hitbox is limited and it's a bit hard to do with perfect timing...practice practice I guess.

hyperstation · Jan 10, 2009

Hey dudes,

I have a question for you all regarding the next update to DSL. I need to know which area of Ganon play you're most interested in hearing all my secrets about.

I've decided that I'm going to go ahead and do a section on momentum "glitches" out of the spot dodge. I've got some hot new sh*t I'm working on which I think will begin to make the Spot Dodge seen as something to fear, not to punish. I'm going to include the forward slide that I showed in the introductory BDC video in this section, but I have some other things which might compliment BDC nicely. The aim in making a section about momentum glitches out of Spot Dodge would be to show how we might be able to complicate how an opponent "reads" a spot dodge. That is, traditionally I think people might look at the spot dodge as an opening in which they can make an approach and attack, but I'm finding ways to make the spot dodge a lot less legible and (hopefully) more dangerous.

I also still plan on doing a section in the Ledge discussion about WKCing and all it's permutations beyond the ledge, how you might use it for gimping, "combos" for low percentage kills, stage spiking, speed hugging, etc.

I am also still working on figuring out the most efficient input for every ACed Ledge->stage aerial. Z1GMA tells me he's cooking up some good sh*t regarding that sexy ACed UAir he discovered, so if there's a lot of interest in a Ledge -> Stage update next, maybe he and I can pool our resources and come up with something really dope.

Anyway, so what do you dudes want to see next? Spot dodge momentum glitches, Wiz Kick Canceling, or Ledge -> Stage Aerials?

I know I'm pushing to add a LOT of new information very quickly, but I'm realizing that it's going to be helpful to have a handful of adjacent discussions happening simultaneously. I think it's completely okay for the information contained in DSL to be way, way ahead of it's more practical application in game. Consider the discussions here on the cusp of ganon play - things we've prioritized because we see potential in how they might change the way we play - which will later settle out into the realm of practicality.

<3 DAD

SaltyKracka · Jan 10, 2009

Ledge -> Stage Aerials sounds like the most practical and best applicable one for now. I suggest you focus on that.

Z1GMA · Jan 10, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Down throw > Buffered dash canceling.
Leads you right next to your opponent free of harm.

This should fit perfectly with a Dsmash followup at like 0-5%

Ray_Kalm · Jan 10, 2009

Z1GMA said:
This should fit perfectly with a Dsmash followup at like 0-5%

Yeah, or a reverse grab. You'll be able to play the opponent with this till 45% or so.

Z1GMA · Jan 10, 2009

Oh lord! 45%
People will start calling Ganon "cheap"
lulz

hyperstation · Jan 10, 2009

Oh wow...we're actually going to start using DSmash now?

I thought Ganon was my friend, and I knew him inside and out. But now this...? :shakes head:

WTF is happening? Thanks for the good info Z1GMA and Kalm. I'm gonna test some of this today and add a bit to the Notes section on BDC if I like the results. Keep it up.

Z1GMA · Jan 13, 2009

A while ago someone said he was able to perform the Utilt safe from getting punished like 9 out of 10 times.
I think it was you DAD? Or maybe Kalm? (not sure)

However, I'd love to have a deep discussion about the Utilt ((in the future))

For example:

When to use it
How to keep it safe from punishing
How does the opponent react? (Psychology)
Mindgames
Shield breaking
How to perform when least expected
Trix
And how to cancel it =_='

Everything!!

Z1GMA said:
((in the future))

hyperstation · Jan 13, 2009

I've got my fair share of Utilt ideas with good success rates. I'll post some here later if people are interested. I actually get kind of a lot of kills with Utilt (relatively speaking), and against good people, not just scrubs.

studly · Jan 14, 2009

awww you guys are amazing... u shuldnt have

D1 · Jan 15, 2009

Great thread DAD as I'm extremely fond of Ganon myself, I shall keep my eyes peeled for more updates on this thread as they come. Much appreciated, and where have you been btw? I haven't seen ya in an NYC tourney in a while.

TP · Jan 15, 2009

We should move on to the next topic if nobody else has anything to add for this one.

Finns7 · Jan 15, 2009

Z1GMA said:
Oh lord! 45%
People will start calling Ganon "cheap"
lulz

Someone actually called my ganon cheap no lies...

Ray kalm uses hacks with his ganon

hyperstation · Jan 16, 2009

D1 said:
Great thread DAD as I'm extremely fond of Ganon myself, I shall keep my eyes peeled for more updates on this thread as they come. Much appreciated, and where have you been btw? I haven't seen ya in an NYC tourney in a while.

Thanks a lot, D1. I'm stuck in PA right now getting healthy, lol. I'll be back soon and MOM and I plan to come to a BX weekly with BUM or something soon. Keep checking back, I got mad new sh*t that most people aren't privy to yet that I'm just testing extensively before making more vids.

Twilight Prince said:
We should move on to the next topic if nobody else has anything to add for this one.

Soon. Working on some new ish.

Finns7 · Jan 16, 2009

Hyper, why dont I see people using the wizkck to upair, Ive killed with this many times.

hyperstation · Jan 16, 2009

Finns7 said:
Hyper, why dont I see people using the wizkck to upair, Ive killed with this many times.

Because people are idiots. Wiz Kick / Wiz Kick Canceled ledge strings are brutal. I mean...freaking brutal. Trust me, Finns, I know that Wiz Kick over the ledge -> rising UAir is your bread and butter...and your a better man for it. People who don't make use of the quickness of wizkick to get WAY out over the ledge which then gives you a huge amount of range/options in NAir, UAir, FAir, DAir and even BAir (all of these with a jump in any sequence) are limiting their ledge game so much. Hell, I challenge anything that moves beyond the ledge. I don't care if it's name is MK, I'm gonna go toe to toe and often, I'm gonna win it.

On topic:

Last night I had the most brutal LOOOOW percentage kill on a recovering MK which was only possible because I used Ledge Hop -> iDJ w/ DI away from ledge -> DAir. It was fantastic, and there was absolutely nothing that metallic puff ball could do about it.

Z1GMA · Jan 16, 2009

Haha, you added the lab pic..

hyperstation · Jan 16, 2009

Z1GMA said:
Haha, you added the lab pic..

Hell yes. It's hilarious. Everyone should check out Z1GMA's awesome photoshop that I posted in the OP. More importantly...

look at my post count. You won't be seeing me for a bit because this one needs to stick around for a little while. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

EDIT: I've immortalized the numbers in my avatar. But I'm still gonna let this one roll for a while.

:034: · Jan 16, 2009

Make a new account or something

Z1GMA · Jan 16, 2009

-empty post-

thatsyournamedude · Jan 16, 2009

dad SHOULD be working on a ganon/MK chain of death.

AgentJGV · Jan 16, 2009

thatsyournamedude said:
dad SHOULD be working on a ganon/MK chain of death.

Psh. We dont need chains.

@ DAD: looking forward to next..."experiment"?

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