DAD's SMASH LAB UPDATED 1/22 - Wizard Kick Canceling 101; "Z1gman Comboing"!!!

[hyperstation]

dad SHOULD be working on a ganon/MK chain of death.

thatsyournanedude is my buddy from PA. We worked long and hard on a Ganon/MK chain of death last night with little avail, but we're not givin up yet. We figured out some awesome stuff.

Psh. We dont need chains.


@ DAD: looking forward to next..."experiment"?

Keep your eyes pealed, homie. It's coming.

 

[hyperstation]

Double post in order to bring this thread to the top so people see this question/request:

I'm looking to get my next treat captured, edited, uploaded and written up this weekend, but I don't want the discussion about the other techs to die. In fact, we haven't had a hell of a lot of discussion. I've provided the building blocks, and now I need to have better feedback about HOW you're applying these techniques so I can add more information to the DSL write ups.

This is a TWO way street. That is, I've got mad knowledge that I need to share with the community because I believe it either enhances or alters the way in which Ganon should be played in certain situations. I need to know what your success has been in implementing this ish into real gameplay.

I have had very encouraging results.

For the Ledge Hop -> iDJ, I've had great KOs on unsuspecting recoverers using the iDJ with DI away from the stage for a nice DAir. There's the perception that there's a bit of a blind spot up and to the outside of Ganon when he's ledge hanging. The iDJ technique fills this blindspot and gives you the option of DAir, BAir, and UAir: all KILL moves. Most people shy away from recovering MKs, for instance. I go toe to toe EVERY time, and SOMEONE is going to die. iDJ has greatly increased my options and my kill count on someone who's **** beyond the edge like MK. Cyphering Snakes have no chance in hell anymore, either.

As for the BDC, I've had SOME success, but it's hard because I've been playing mostly online and there are extra lag frames. I've found one or two BDC air dodges in a row followed by a buffered Spot Dodge upon landing does great things for approaching. I also have been using my spot dodge momentum "glitches" (yet to be revealed) to set up crazy mind games and land FTilt/DTilt kills unexpectedly. I've got a Demonic Dash Attack coming in the next video that works seamlessly into this whole concept of BDC, and I've been getting kills at ranges I didn't used to think possible. Get ready. I've got a new Demonic Moveset. lol.

Anyway, please give me feedback. I mean, I hope people are attempting to incorporate these new ideas, because I think the REALLY complicate the way someone tries to read Ganon in addition to giving him a handful of new kill options. Anyone?

 

[Z1GMA]

I've had a few nice kills thx to BDC -> Ftilt.. especially against Ike/Link.
And the iDJ helps me in mixing up my ledge -> stage-game, making me harder to predict.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

I've tried to incorporate the iDJ and the BDC into my game but it's very limited right now. I'm still just doing reverse Uairs and trying to master the timing to sneak in with a grab or jab after.

 

[hyperstation]

Okay, after a really long play session last night, I've begun just absolutely ****** with Ledge Hop -> iDJ. DIing away from the stage and DAiring or UAir chaining is just brutal. If you haven't started using this, your Ganon is only operating at 50% on the ledge. I think iDJ is bigger than I first suggested, so please start using this and post your findings so we can update the Notes section of the iDJ discussion.

 

[hyperstation]

Double post to let you all know I uploaded the newest video! CLICK DOWN THERE

Wizard Kick Canceling (WKC) 101 (and other WK goodies)

Perhaps not as much new stuff as the past videos, but most of the new things are still being tested and I don't have enough material for their release yet. I feel confident that almost anyone will find something good in this new video though. I think I said I'd make it back in like f*cking November. It's still a good idea, as far as I'm concerned.

I haven't done the write up for this section as I'm really tired right now, but it'll be done tomorrow. Most of it is self explanatory anyway, but I'm sure I'll need to explain a few things in the write up. Let the discussion begin. Tell ME something I don't know about WKC and the ledge. THXBAI!

Enjoy,

<3 DAD

 

[Z1GMA]

Very nice vid, DAD.
You work so hard for all the Ganons out there =' )

 

[hyperstation]

Very nice vid, DAD.
You work so hard for all the Ganons out there =' )

I HAVE A DREAM...

that Ganon will perform better in tournaments and get the respect he deserves.

OBAMA! Turn on yr f*cking TVs you heathens!

(And I don't mean to play Smash. lol)

 

[AgentJGV]

unfortunately im at school so i cant.

 

[hyperstation]

unfortunately im at school so i cant.

Off topic: but to be honest, your school is terribly f*cked up if classes aren't stopped so everyone can watch this. It's so insanely important, and you students should be freaking out at your administration for handling this so shortsightedly.

 

[AgentJGV]

eh. im in studyhall so yeah. And the school is mixed with pro/anti Obama people.

 

[Finns7]

^ Me and Agent both live in youngstown. At my school they let us watch it, it was great until aretha franklin put a little too much soul in the song >_> lolololol.

 

[hyperstation]

^ Me and Agent both live in youngstown. At my school they let us watch it, it was great until aretha franklin put a little too much soul in the song >_> lolololol.

Dude, Aretha was f*cking fantastic. The whole inauguration was epic in scale, simultaneous excitement and sobriety, and historical importance. Shame on any institution - school, business, or any other organization - that didn't recognize the precedence that today's event held over ANY other operations.

If you didn't watch the inauguration, do what's required of you as a HUMAN and watch it by whatever means necessary. Now, back on topic, please.

 

[TP]

This is a great thread, but nothing in it is as impressive as DAD's new avatar.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This is a great thread, but nothing in it is as impressive as DAD's new avatar.

I laughed when I saw it. Not lol, not lul. I laughed.

 

[hyperstation]

The avatar is amazing at full scale. It looses a lot of detail being sized down. I may upload the full scale version just so that I can post it when making "/thread" comments. Or perhaps once MOM and I start uploading sets (keep your eyes peeled...we're talking EPIC sh*t) I could have a Mortal Kombat style DAD vs MOM juxtaposition of images. lol

SOOOOOOO.....how you guys like the WKC vid?

 

[Greasy Steve]

Good day, hyperstation. I <3 Dad (no homo).

I just got brawl a few days ago, and worked to unlock up to Ganondorf last night. As soon as I can figure out why my Wii won't go online, I'll have a friend code for you. Or perhaps we could have some home play later.

 

[Z1GMA]

Good day, hyperstation. I <3 Dad (no homo).

I just got brawl a few days ago, and worked to unlock up to Ganondorf last night. As soon as I can figure out why my Wii won't go online, I'll have a friend code for you. Or perhaps we could have some home play later.

How cute of you to spend your very first post on DAD "J

 

[hyperstation]

Good day, hyperstation. I <3 Dad (no homo).

I just got brawl a few days ago, and worked to unlock up to Ganondorf last night. As soon as I can figure out why my Wii won't go online, I'll have a friend code for you. Or perhaps we could have some home play later.

Yo waddup, Greasy. Welcome to my lair.

Everybody, Greasy's my boy from WAY back. Be nice to him.

On topic: I finished the write-up for the WKC video. Let's get this discussion on track now, shall we?

 

[Z1GMA]

I've got some interesting stuff to discuss!

* Grab release -> WCK away from stage *

O = Ganon
x = opponent (MK in this case)
-- = stage

----------------Ox----------
^If you grab MK about here...

----------------O----------x
^He'll land almost exactly at the ledge when grab released.

--------------------------Ox
^And you'll hit him perfectly with your WKC as he comes down right by the ledge...

-------------------------- O x
^From here you can follow up with what ever you like.
Instant Uair is garanteed at low %'s, right?

Grab release -> WCK away from stage; Cool or lame?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon could foot stool someone hanging on the ledge, by WFC. I've done and killed with this multiple times.

 

[hyperstation]

Ganon could foot stool someone hanging on the ledge, by WFC. I've done and killed with this multiple times.

I've got kills doing something similar, but instead it's WKC -> UAir -> Foot stool on a ledge hanger. I think MOM uploaded a vid a while ago of exactly this.

 

[:034:]

*falls into DAD's SMASH LAB* Hey guys! whats goin on in dis thread lol

Yeah, I watched Obama's inauguration, it was pretty epic. Aretha Franklin coming up was cool, but her hat distracted me way too much. XD

How many people were actually at the Mall that day? I haven't heard concrete numbers yet.

 

[x_Deity_x]

Great work on all of this, DAD. Deity's glad you made something of his Inside Wizkick Cancel. =)

There seems to be a little something here for everyone~

 

[TP]

Hey guys, the following is completely unrelated to this thread, but this is the thread every Ganon main checks the most. I'm leaving the forum for awhile. I don't know how long, but at least a week and maybe a good deal more. I won't be playing on Wifi either, sorry Salty. Keep it real while I'm gone guys. Someone take charge of the chainchoking thread for me. When I come back, I'll have some new discovery or research for everyone.

Peace out.

 

[hyperstation]

Alright, everyone. Things just got really SERIOUS up in DAD's SMASH LAB.

Z1GMA PMed me earlier today with an awesome find. We agreed that he would make a video of the new concept and I would do the writeup for him since English isn't his second language. To be honest, this could potentially be it's own thread, but it serves the interest of so much of the discussion going on in DSL.

As I mention in the discussion section, I've got big ideas for bringing together BDC, Z1gman Comboing, and the newest video I'm working on which involves the Spot Dodge. It's gonna get SO freaking crazy.

Without further ado, get down to business with the newest section of DSL: Z1gman Comboing! OP updated with a video by the man himself and my write up.

 

[Teronist09]

MORE crazy stick stuff to memorize? I hope my controller doesn't break any time soon...

This would only work on characters you can tipman standing up, correct? or can anyone be hit by it?

 

[hyperstation]

This would only work on characters you can tipman standing up, correct? or can anyone be hit by it?

I plan on testing this fairly extensively because I have a lot of questions of my own. Namely, can the character being Z1gmaned DI to grab the ledge. My intuition says no, because if the character indeed enters free-fall without control over their character for however many frames, that might include DI. But then again, you can DI DURING a hit, so if the opponent has the foresight, perhaps they can DI it.

Blad's testing for the Bouncing Combo found that pretty much everyone (I THINK?) can be Tipmaned, but some require a FF. Perhaps this is the case here. This is speculative, and I will post if I come up with anything more concrete. Note that Z1gma Tipmans Fox in the video...is he tall enough to do that without FFing? I don't know.

 

[Teronist09]

I think you might have to hit with a certain part of the hitbox for the free fall to initiate. I was able to get Fox to enter the freefall state but Oli would travel about half the same distance and then jump back onto the stage (this being testing with computers for Oli and my brother for fox) Also, Oli was hard to hit, so this technique probably wouldn't be of much use on him since you have to get almost right on him, or else have momentum towards him already.

DI was included, but I don't think it was enough for tipman > dair to miss. I'll do more extensive testing later because I want to see if the small characters all lack the freefall thing because of how the hitbox touches them

Also, do you move the control stick full up to prevent FF with dair cstick? I couldn't get it to work holding up and out.

 

[hyperstation]

I think you might have to hit with a certain part of the hitbox for the free fall to initiate. I was able to get Fox to enter the freefall state but Oli would travel about half the same distance and then jump back onto the stage (this being testing with computers for Oli and my brother for fox) Also, Oli was hard to hit, so this technique probably wouldn't be of much use on him since you have to get almost right on him, or else have momentum towards him already.

DI was included, but I don't think it was enough for tipman > dair to miss. I'll do more extensive testing later because I want to see if the small characters all lack the freefall thing because of how the hitbox touches them

Also, do you move the control stick full up to prevent FF with dair cstick? I couldn't get it to work holding up and out.

That's funny because I just updated the OP. Everywhere I had been writing DI UP when I meant DOWN. Try again. To practice, if you start out of a crouch and continue holding down, you'll be sure that you're not going to Fast Fall during your DAir.

 

[Teronist09]

So I've done some more testing.
Small characters don't seem to be tipman > dair-able because they don't fall far enough after the tipman, which is probably related to having to FF uair them to hit with the tipman.
The Tipman > Dair is completely avoidable MOST of the time, it would seem, just by DJ'ing, regardless of DI. It's also possible they can dair you, but that's only if they don't use a jump, and most of the time Ganon will hit first. Big characters (bowser) can be sourspotted for death some of the time; D3 can up-b recover, but you grab him with darkdive and after that edgegaurd.

I'd like to say that Tipman > Dair on Ike is lol. He can aether before you can dark dive back up and drag you into the abyss.

The Tipman > Footstool alone works wonders on characters like Wolf whose recovery won't get back onto the stage, giving you an easy edge guard. I think it worked on DK and possibly Bowser.

Oh, and the whole fallstate thing seems to just be CPU's being ********. I never had that happen under human control, but I was able to replicate the stuff in the video with CPU's


I wonder if you can gimp at all with footstool> nair? Probably not though.

 

[:034:]

Finally, something that I can pull off. XD This looks awesome but.... Z1gman combo sounds lame. :/ Honestly... Can't do better than that?

 

[Z1GMA]

Thx for doing the wrote-up, DAD. Great job!

As far as I can tell, Timpan>Dair works best on Low %'s (Around 0-20%);
But It CAN be performed at high %'s too, though I'd rather use Uair at high %'s.
(Dair seems to have a greater success rate at Low %'s)

On Link, I peformed it after his ledge attack, as seen in the vid.
It works on Link cause he stands almost right at the ledge after his ledge attack (<100%) #####
It didn't work on Snake cause he steps in on the stage during his ledge attack.

BUT...
Note that they don't have to be right by the edge at high %'s. (They slide a greater distance)

Summary: The setup is easier to perform at high %'s... But the Follow ups are easier to
perform at low %'s (Greater success rate, I think)

We have yet to test which character ledge attacks that can be countered with this.
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
As for the name... I understand that youre trying to give me cred by calling it "Z1gman comboing", DAD.
And that youre refering to Tipman/Flipman, which are also performed with Uair.
"Z1gman comboing" sounds hilarious ^^

I suggest "Z1gma combo"(Like: Gonzo combo), or "Z1gma Spike"; And that it mainly reffers to Uair>Dair
But I feel like an azzhole when I'm suggesting my name in the combo-name..
I'll just let you decide it, DAD.. Or if anyone else has a cool name suggestion.

"TOD"? (Toe of doom) lulz

thx again, DAD!

 

[hyperstation]

Thx for doing the wrote-up, DAD. Great job!

As far as I can tell, Timpan>Dair works best on Low %'s (Around 0-20%);
But It CAN be performed at high %'s too, though I'd rather use Uair at high %'s.
(Dair seems to have a greater success rate at Low %'s)

On Link, I peformed it after his ledge attack, as seen in the vid.
It works on Link cause he stands almost right at the ledge after his ledge attack (<100%) #####
It didn't work on Snake cause he steps in on the stage during his ledge attack.

BUT...
Note that they don't have to be right by the edge at high %'s. (They slide a greater distance)

Summary: The setup is easier to perform at high %'s... But the Follow ups are easier to
perform at low %'s (Greater success rate, I think)

We have yet to test which character ledge attacks that can be countered with this.
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
As for the name... I understand that youre trying to give me cred by calling it "Z1gman comboing", DAD.
And that youre refering to Tipman/Flipman, which are also performed with Uair.
"Z1gman comboing" sounds hilarious ^^

I suggest "Z1gma combo"(Like: Gonzo combo), or "Z1gma Spike"; And that it mainly reffers to Uair>Dair
But I feel like an azzhole when I'm suggesting my name in the combo-name..
I'll just let you decide it, DAD.. Or if anyone else has a cool name suggestion.

"TOD"? (Toe of doom) lulz

thx again, DAD!

We obviously don't have to keep that name. I just thought it was funny, what with tipman, flipman, etc. But we can certainly change it.

Next order of business: We need people to practice this WITH opponents to see what the success rate is. Things to bear in mind: at which percentages is it guaranteed? Which "combos" are guaranteed? Things of this nature.

 

[Teronist09]

Which "combos" are guaranteed?

The only one that seems guaranteed is tipman > footstool. The dair seems to be avoidable, at least at low % and large characters can be hit out of their DJ by sourspot, as I said before. Any aerial besides dair seems to hit, though.
The tipman footstool could totally rock Wolf matches, it should be insta-death. Unfortunately he crouches like all the time...


Assuming that your opponent is on the edge, what's the optimal spacing away from them? Since I've started using down+out DI I land on the stage after uair almost 50% of the time...
Also, if you do wiff the uair and land on the edge like I seem to do, you can dair small characters out of their second jump. Might work on bigger ones too.

 

[Z1GMA]

We obviously don't have to keep that name. I just thought it was funny, what with tipman, flipman, etc.

Let's keep it as it is, for now =p

 

[hyperstation]

The only one that seems guaranteed is tipman > footstool. The dair seems to be avoidable, at least at low % and large characters can be hit out of their DJ by sourspot, as I said before. Any aerial besides dair seems to hit, though.
The tipman footstool could totally rock Wolf matches, it should be insta-death. Unfortunately he crouches like all the time...


Assuming that your opponent is on the edge, what's the optimal spacing away from them? Since I've started using down+out DI I land on the stage after uair almost 50% of the time...
Also, if you do wiff the uair and land on the edge like I seem to do, you can dair small characters out of their second jump. Might work on bigger ones too.

Thanks for taking this on, Teronist. Obviously we will need more sources corroborating your claims before I can update the OP, but this is what the discussion is all about. I wonder if you're optimally inputting the DAir. The DAir when I was doing it was coming out really disturbingly fast, maybe only a matter of frames slower than the Footstool, but then again, it could come down to a matter of frames.

I've been thinking, even if there is room for escape, part of this moves sexiness is it's unexpectedness. That is, how many times have you opponents seen you go from a grounded tipman -> DAir over the edge? Probably not too many times, and DAir's hitbox is tall enough that even if they are able to jump, there's a good chance you could souerspot the DAir and still put them in a seriously gimped recovery situation.

Good work, Teron.

EDIT:

SUM 4th DIMENSION LAWLZ

Z1gma's String Theory.
Z1gma's ToE: Theory of Everything.

 

[Z1GMA]

I think it's pretty hard for the opponent to even react and realize that Ganon's coming
down after them, unitl it's too late..


Thx for testing it, Teronist. (I Forgot to thank you before.)

 

[Blad01]

Awesome Z1gma

I find "Z1GMA Edgeguard" or "ZIGMA COMBO SPIKE TO THE DOOMS (ZCS TTD)" to be better names

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Just a thought but would this combo be possible with a DAir start up?

As in DAir -> Tipman -> Whatever follow up. As I recall a DAir to a Tipman is always a guaranteed trip so maybe you could get more damage and stun that way?