Ganon iz a MYTHBUSTA - Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings

hyperstation · Jan 21, 2009

GANON IZ A MYTHBUSTA
Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings, or
How We Can Rise Up and Overcome

The Purpose

First of all, there may be some overlap between this thread and Kalm's match-up thread. This is because the purpose of this thread is to unpack a lot of the shortcomings of Ganon's competitive game in an attempt to remedy them, find solutions, and make advances with Ganon in the competitive scene. Part of this process is going to be looking as specific aspects of Ganon's worst match-ups - the techs/moves/issues in general that just **** Ganon causing 70-30, 80-20, or 90-10 match-ups - and seeing if there's ANYTHING we can do about it. Bear in mind, we are NOT doing match-up discussions. We're breaking it down to specifics. Much of our search will be fruitless, to be sure, but this is the thread where we put all our cards on the table and see if we have anything CLOSE to a winning hand. I'm going to start with just a few topics, but I think this topic - not unlike DSL - should be a proverbial gangbang of information with many topics happening at once, because we're probably going to see overlap.

The Process of Character Interrogation

Join a match-up chatroom, and instead of just asking "1v1 EC USA Tourny Rules," say, "1v1 EC USA Tourny Rules. I'm looking for experience versus some of Ganon's worst match-ups: Shiek, Falco, DDD, ZSS, MK..." or whomever your heart desires. You might also lurk the boards of your most feared adversaries, surveying a Who's Who of that character. Once you know who's nasty with whatever character you're studying, send a PM, explain your plight, and tell them you're looking to get your a$s handed to you. Anecdote: today I did exactly this in the AiB Matchmaking Chat. I asked specifically for ZSS, Shiek, Falco, etc. I got a guy who was great with ZSS and more than proficient with Shiek. When playing his Shiek, I asked him to do me the favor of FTilt locking me as often as he could in order to try to get good DI out of it. I still need work, but he obliged, and it was very helpful. I also asked him to chaincamp on BF. I wanted the worst of the worst. After a couple matches against each character, I was going even with both of them. How about that?

The idea is that you subject yourself to the worst conditions and techniques of a given match-up and see what you can come up with. Obviously it may take a little bit of effort to find someone willing to help you, but if your Ganon is dope, people generally have a hard time turning down that fight because it's just too d*mn fun.

Beyond Match-ups: Problems in General

This aspect of the Myth Bustaz thread could perhaps be the most fruitless. For instance, how the eff do we get rid of RCO lag? If we can't get rid of it, let's finally write out, in detail, how you handle it correctly (I'll take that charge). Best methods of avoiding gimping/handling your second jump and up+B recovery? How can we use Utilt safely and effectively? These are the types of issues we will be diving into as well. Certain problematic aspects of Ganon's play are far more holistic than Shiek's FTilt lock or Falco's CG. These problems are inherent to Ganon and we need to find ways to overcome or avoid them.

CHARACTER SPECIFIC

:shiek:

FTilt/FTilt Lock: What is the proper DI and SDI to escape this? Is there an escape at low percentages, or do you just grin and bear it until the knock back is high enough that you can evade? How about any other general tips about this Ganonrape tactic?

Flamingo said:

To Hyperstation:

Sheiks should never have an ftilt input error, it's extremely easy. The beat should be burned into our muscle-memories by now.

1. Idk. Usually 15-20 - 50-80 (character dependant) (With DI) On you, probably 60? Idk, don't play many Ganons.

2. You won't 'escape' per-say. You can DI so that we are forced to turn around to keep tilting or finish our ftilt combo... -> nair, utilt, possibly Usmash vs Ganon...

3. You DI towards Sheik. Maybe SDI works better, idk, don't do Sheik mirrors. But it would still be towards Sheik. Also, Characters with invincibility on the first few frames of input willbe able to use that move to escape. Ex. Marth's Dolphin Slash. I don't think Ganon has anything like that though.

Click to expand...

Koskinator said:

Ftilt lock with Shiek. DI and SDI down at early percentages and get your ****ing shield up. I assume this stops working around 20%+.

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Marsulas][COLOR="yellow said:

Her ftilt is a beast in this matchup obviously. You all are aware of escaping it at early percentages with down DI and then getting up your shield. Experienced Sheik players will ftilt a couple of times at early percentages and then immediately go into a dsmash, jabs, or a grab. After you DI down and then get your shield up....immediately roll backwards.

At mid percentages it really is just a matter of not getting hit with her ftilt. If you are ever in a position where you are in your shield and Sheik is just ftilting away, full hop and then go from there......anything that Sheik can do to you in the air is nothing compared to what ftilt will do to you. Even on a powershield there is little you can do if the Sheik player buffers her ftilt correctly.

One thing i've found to be semi-reliable as i've played as Ganon in this matchup is to powershield, SH a bit out of range from her ftilt, and then catch her with an aerial Gerudo. This is extremely risky if the Sheik player happens to spotdodge it however....so only use it as a mixup every once in a while.

If you spotdodge an ftilt, do not attemp a jab or dtilt or any other possible close range option you have. Sheik's jab, ftilt, and utilt will outspeed anything in your moveset and you will find yourself in a deadly frame trap. Your best option would be to roll or jump away and reset your spacing.

In fact I would recommend spotdodging an awful lot in this matchup because her only real threat to beat a spotdodge on the ground would be her utilt. If you are facing an ftilt crazy Sheik.....spotdodging can be a life saver[/COLOR].

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Chain-Camping in general and Chain-Camping Under Platforms on BF: How can you approach this? Is this truly spamable to the point of non-approach (assume the Shiek is competent)? I've not been exposed to chain-camping much, but during the match-up discussion this technique was talked about a lot.

Flamingo (from a PM) said:

The only thing of Ganon's that will go through the chain I have experienced is going diagonally from the air toward Sheik with a Down+B. It has hit me quite a bit.

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Marsulas said:

A lot of Sheik users(myself included), will love to praise the chain and all of its glory. It is true that technically with perfect use Ganon can not do a **** thing.....but I found a small trick.

It is extremely hard for me to maintain chain coverage behind myself when protecting from the front and it takes a little while for me to transition behind me if my opponent lands behind the chain. Full hop over the chain, land behind Sheik, and when Sheik moves the chain behind quickly SH and wizkick onto the top of Sheik. This is really one of the only ways I have ever been able to sneak past the chain and its devilry.

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Sheik's Grab Game: Some notes on how she will be using her grab game and how you can avoid/prepare for many of the issues that come with it. She likes to use grabs to set you up for her phenomenal gimps.

Marsulas said:

Her grab game isn't amazing, but she is quick enough to make it seem that way at times. If your in the habit of immediately airdodging after being thrown, you will easily get hit by Sheiks nair or bair.

Probably her best and most used throw is going to be fthrow. Most average Sheik players will love to fthrow and immediately SH fair to try to knock you offstage. This is easily avoidable if you DI down and away on her fthrow. The better Sheik players, however, will fthrow and walk into a shield>utilt>ftilt on Ganon.........something you should be very aware of.

She does have some nasty tricks on Ganon out of a ground release since he is in perfect range for an ftilt or a dash grab. Once again if you ever suspect a grab release, a spotdodge is your best friend and then immediately get the hell out of there. I personally love to release to a needle storm and if it's shielded then I regrab.

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Grab Issues: Is Gonzo Combo truly inescapable? Does Ganon stand no chance before 60% if he's grabbed?

MK26 said:

...The u-air of the gonzo combo is sdi-able, but ganon might fall too quickly to escape a reverse u-tilt
and around 20%, you can di the throw away and the u-air will miss.

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Chain Grabbing: Any way in hell to escape it?
CG -> DAir 0-DEATH: Is this truly Ganon's demise? NO! This myth has been BUSTED...kinda. It depends on the stage, but you can DI and SDI INTO the stage as soon as Falco's DAir connects and tech off the ledge. It's not perfect, and it's hard to do, but it's certainly nice to know. View this vid: Surviving Falco's Spike

HOLISTIC ISSUES

RCO Lag: Any theories on how the hell we could cancel this? If not, talk about the methods you use to handle it efficiently. I can do a write up/vid either here or at DSL at some point, but I'm more interested in if anyone has even a glimmer of hope for canceling RCO.
Reassessing FAir: Swoops, this one is just for you. You've spoken of FAir recently as your newest spacing fetish. Kalm, I know you agree having spoken to you recently about it. Hook us up. I've added a composite image of FAir for anyone's reference during discussion:

Swoops said:

As for f-air, every Ganondorf main should be learning to space this very, very well. It should be your second nature to pull this out and hit with the very end of your fist. It would be helpful for someone to get a hitbox pic, but I can try to get a detailed one.

When hitting with the inside portion of the f-air, it does much less knockback, much less shield stun and pushback, and a little bit less damage. Land with the just the tip of this move (the area arches from directly above and in front of Ganon when it starts out, and decent amount below him when it finishes,) and it does insane knockback, often killing medium weights off the side of the stage as early as 70%, pushes their shield back very far, and does a good amount of shield stun for Brawl. The shield stun and pushback are good enough to where most characters won't have quick enough moves to dole out the punishment. Of course, there are quick enough dash attacks, and definitely tether grabs that can take advantage of the lag, but that's why you have to know who you're fighting against.

You must know that if you don't connect with either the opponent or a regular shied (not powershield,) you will get punished. That is what becomes slightly tricky with f-air as you go along. You have the start up frames, and you have to be in juuuust the right range. Sounds hard, but it's just tricky sometimes. You have to be in the right range to stay outside theirs and hit with the sweetspot, but inside the right range to where you don't miss and get screwed. Spot dodging and powershielding seems like a problem at first, but with the timing of f-air, it becomes a little bit harder for them to time spot dodges and PSing.

Spacing f-air just takes quite a bit of practice and getting used to. Make sure that you fast fall the attack into their shield and range a lot, otherwise you're going to be hanging in the air after missing while they're on the ground ready to punish. Double jump becomes a very useful tool for setting up f-air spacing, as you can control the fall and range a little better. You should also learn to space it over moves as well, as the hitbox comes in around in arching motion to come over and skull crush a lot of moves. DK is a character where f-air can be very effective at competing with his own spacing game and beating a lot of his ground game.

Edgeguarding with f-air is something that should be used a little more often as well. It's definitely risky, especially with walk off f-air, because you barely grab the ledge to make it back, which can allow for an edgehog from decently smart players if you miss. Walk off f-air is still a main edgeguard in my book though. It requires almost no set up time if your near the ledge (tipman and stomp still require set up times that are much easier to see coming,) covers a very wide area, and will blast people off the side at fairly early percents.

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Ray_Kalm said:

As Z1GMA said, FAir is like a airborne FSmash. I use it regularly against characters heavier in weight, though I tend to save it's raw power to kill those lighter in weight (Metaknight, Marth). The "curve" Ganon makes goes slightly inward (common knowledge), inward enough to avoid a couple of moves and punish at the same time, and which could be enough to kill middle/low weights at decent percentages.

Click to expand...

Swoops said:

F-air OoS is like 6 frames faster than a shield drop>f-smash. I might do a little more research for OoS f-air as a punisher for very laggy moves, but for the time being I would usually just use f-tilt in place of it.

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UTilt Usage: I've got plenty on this one, but the discussion should be started all around. I'll put my 2 cents together after the discussion gets rolling

Z1GMA said:

*Triggers couter moves, such as Marth's.
****** Charizzard when he's using Rock smash.
*"Utilt surfin". DAD~ (DAD's Note: Using the moving platform on Smashville, set up a UTilt facing in TOWARDS the stage while the platform is on the far left or right of the stage and is beginning to move into the stage. It's a relatively safe position vs many opponents and can catch tall opponents standing on the stage since UTilt's hitbox actually extends slightly BELOW the moving platform.
* Vs Ike's recovery.
*DAD's Note: Triggering Snakes C4 (but not remote mines, if I remember correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

And, I just did some testing. (probably common knowledge)
*The sucktion alone, renews stale moves. (DAD's Note: the suction still must connect for it to negate stale moves. Idea: in 2v2s, use it against your team mate and have the roll out of the hit box. With a Fox as a teammate, you could have Fox stand IN the wind "hitbox", allow it to connect, then immediately laser you out of it. Doing this in sequence over and over again would refresh both team mates moves and cause little damage to Ganon.)
*The wind of the Utilt has to connect, or just scratch your opponent (or any "object" - baloons, etc)
It doesn't matter if they're in the wind for just a 1/10 sec, or 2 entire seconds; It still just counts as "1 hit". Also, if they are hit by both the wind AND the explosion, it still counts as "1 hit" (1 input)

If you catch them with the wind while they are already shielding, they WILL get hit by either the wind OR the explosion.. Cause if they roll away they will get "winded" in the roll-lag at the start of the roll-animation.

Click to expand...
UTilt Canceling: Like the RCO topic, any distant dreams of how we could possibly cancel it? In all likelihood, it's not possible, but let's be honest...we all are kept awake at night dreaming about it. As of now, the only known methods of canceling UTilt include stage interference (i.e. the conveyor belts on P.S.2) or enemy interference. I've suggested a hypothetical Ganondorf/Fox team in which Fox uses a single laser to strategically cancel Ganon's UTilt without any knockback. In all likelihood, this isn't a very useful technique, but I figured it was worth noting incase it spurs any thoughts
OoS Aerials: Tap Jump ON or OFF? According to Flying Dutchman, any aerial can be performed OoS with Tap Jump OFF that can be performed with Tap Jump ON ~~with the exception of Up B.~~

MK26 said:

You dont lose any oos options with tap jump off
While holding shield and up on the control stick, press jump and b at the same time to up-b oos.

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A Note to ALL Contributors

I want TONS of recommendations for these lists. Let's get this thing hitting fast and hard. Anything you got, throw it out there. This thread doesn't have to be pretty. If you're an "outsider" (that is, not a Ganon main, though this term is not intended to offend), please treat us with respect if disproving a myth we've attempted to bust. That is, don't get all high and mighty in telling us we were wrong about something, because it's COMPLETELY possible we are indeed wrong. Let's not derail the thread the way it happens so often in match-up discussions. This goes for Ganon mains too...be respectful. This thread is to be a sloppy, quick brainstorming session, and its tone should remain LIGHTHEARTED. I'm tired of angry threads.

Thanks, everybody,

<3 DAD

stRIP · Jan 21, 2009

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

U ARE NOT DEAD IF FALCO GRABS YOU!

=)

Ray_Kalm · Jan 21, 2009

stRIP said:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

U ARE NOT DEAD IF FALCO GRABS YOU!

=)

That's not as easy as it seems, to pull of. It actually takes quite a amount of practice to do it accurately, and consistently during game play.

Dragmire · Jan 21, 2009

for kirby combo yes it's escapeable about at 15% or so just DI Up and away from the kirby when he's doing it, works pretty well

hyperstation · Jan 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
That's not as easy as it seems, to pull of. It actually takes quite a amount of practice to do it accurately, and consistently during game play.

Nonetheless, the dude's right. I gotta practice DIing -> stage teching spikes in general. Obviously, this is stage specific. However, stRIP...this myth has been BUSTED!

Will update OP.

Dragmire said:
for kirby combo yes it's escapeable about at 15% or so just DI Up and away from the kirby when he's doing it, works pretty well

We need proof before I can update on this one. Vidz?

stRIP · Jan 21, 2009

As a melee player its easy to tech da **** :D

hyperstation · Jan 21, 2009

stRIP said:
As a melee player its easy to tech da **** :D

Choke on one, stRIP. I've been ballin' melee since December 2001 launch day. NEVER anyone other than Ganon.

Naw, I'm just kidding, but GET BACK TO WORK. Bust those myths, homie.

GotenOnNimbus · Jan 21, 2009

I suppose I'll give a little input, even though I have little tourney experience. I've at least been working with Ganon for the past 3-4 months, and keeping up with most things here.

For Falco, I've just gotten very good at Powershielding his stupid lasers from different distances, just so he has to approach. I hang out near the edge while at low percents, just so I have the chance to recover if I'm chainspiked. Sadly, I don't know an effective way out of the spike, though...There've been flukes, but nothing consistent. =(

Fair has become my new best friend. I've purposely whiffed it a few times in a match to make my opponent think I can't effectively use it, then rely on other aerials for a little bit, then BAM...bust out the Fair at the next opportunity. I've noticed I use it more when recovering high.

Utilt I use to edgeguard when I don't feel comfortable enough to leap out and chase my opponent offstage. Start it up about when they sweetspot the edge, either they need to jump out of the way before their invincibility ends, or try and brave its wind effect and hit you in the second it has to go off.

Z1GMA · Jan 21, 2009

stRIP said:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

U ARE NOT DEAD IF FALCO GRABS YOU!

=)

Can one buffer the Wall tech?

Koskinator · Jan 21, 2009

Ftilt lock with Shiek. DI and SDI down at early percentages and get your ****ing shield up. I assume this stops working around 20%+.

hyperstation · Jan 21, 2009

Koskinator said:
Ftilt lock with Shiek. DI and SDI down at early percentages and get your ****ing shield up. I assume this stops working around 20%+.

KOSK, for god's sake I trust you, but I need vids or corroboration from other Ganons.

fromundaman · Jan 21, 2009

I was going to look into this a little more before posting it, but since it would fit in the scope of this thread, I think I have found a way to get a guaranteed Utilt.

I did this against a ****ty TL (That's the only reason this situation occured):
He Dairs, but misses, and I accidentally Utilt (**** Kirby habits!). What happened was that he was suspended in the air right above the stage by the wind in Dair animation until the Utilt hit him. I plan on trying this with other moves that force the user down (Kirby's FC, Sonic/ZSS/G&W/ICs Dair, Yoshi's Down B, D3's UpB (You have no idea how much I hope this one works!), any freefall state, or any other animation that only ends when you hit the ground (or stays out long enough for a Utilt if not ground canceled).).

I probably won't be able to effectively test this until tomorrow or Friday, so if anyone else feels like checking it out, go ahead.

Also, you can situationally cancel a Utilt on certain stages, like on PS1&2 when the stage changes, Delfino when the stage lands, and I think Halberd when the stage lands on the ship.

TP · Jan 21, 2009

I would also like to share a potential use for the Utilt. The wind triggers the counters of Lucario, Marth, and Ike. From the 2 minutes of "testing" I did, this shows theoretical promise against Ike, not the others. Ike's counter is the one with the most end lag and smallest range from what I could see. This is probable worthless, but whatever. Fromundaman's looks better than mine, but if someone wants to test mine further, go right ahead.

Another "use" of the Utilt occured when I was fighting Gleam on Pictochat. A wall of some sort rose between us that we could not attack through, but the Utilt worked. This was the Pictochat form with a bunch of squares in a pile. He shielded the Utilt both times I tried, which led to his sheild breaking, then the wall disappeared to let me Punch him. In other words, use Utilt on Pictochat. This is more worthless than the counter thing, but just as fun.

Finns7 · Jan 21, 2009

I was going to do a thread like this on the link and ganon boards, your one step a head dude :D..........

Ok You should also put up possible ways to counter the grab release.

I havnt tried this with ganon yet but with link the gonzo combo doesnt work at all, isnt it the fthrow to upair to grab blah blah blah. I usually just DI the upair and jump out idk.

Falcos double lazer is more gayer to me than anything. Lag kills my powershielding game though but still. It stops my dair, bair, upair movement and mindgames. My main form of movement is almost never the standard run and falco ***** that...

Lex Crunch · Jan 22, 2009

Making Forward Aerial great? Come on. You fast fall that just before the strike, you're a moving hitbox of death, especially if it's a sweetspot. It also hits slightly above you, so why the hell not? It's not as fast or as spammable as Up Air, but if you're predicting or baiting an air dodge, this will almost always work as a one hit wonder, and it works for punishing an opposition receiving landing lag from both of you coming down from the air. If it's not rising, then its effectiveness comes from the fastfall, because that $hit is FAST after the startup lag. And so far, no one has suspected the retreating F-Air. Works great for certain edgeguards and retreating from a failed gimp if you have the height.

Maybe Swoops can put it better than I can...

Swoops · Jan 22, 2009

You know with Falco's spike you can easily just wait for it then DJ and recover...you make it back onto the stage. Tech obviously works too if you don't want to risk being on the stage for an extra attack but it beats the risk of missing the tech and dying.

As for f-air, every Ganondorf main should be learning to space this very, very well. It should be your second nature to pull this out and hit with the very end of your fist. It would be helpful for someone to get a hitbox pic, but I can try to get a detailed one (I just wish there was something to get completely accurate hitbox pictures.)

When hitting with the inside portion of the f-air, it does much less knockback, much less shield stun and pushback, and a little bit less damage. Land with the just the tip of this move (the area arches from directly above and in front of Ganon when it starts out, and decent amount below him when it finishes,) and it does insane knockback, often killing medium weights off the side of the stage as early as 70%, pushes their shield back very far, and does a good amount of shield stun for Brawl. The shield stun and pushback are good enough to where most characters won't have quick enough moves to dole out the punishment. Of course, there are quick enough dash attacks, and definitely tether grabs that can take advantage of the lag, but that's why you have to know who you're fighting against.

You must know that if you don't connect with either the opponent or a regular shied (not powershield,) you will get punished. That is what becomes slightly tricky with f-air as you go along. You have the start up frames, and you have to be in juuuust the right range. Sounds hard, but it's just tricky sometimes. You have to be in the right range to stay outside theirs and hit with the sweetspot, but inside the right range to where you don't miss and get screwed. Spot dodging and powershielding seems like a problem at first, but with the timing of f-air, it becomes a little bit harder for them to time spot dodges and PSing.

Spacing f-air just takes quite a bit of practice and getting used to. Make sure that you fast fall the attack into their shield and range a lot, otherwise you're going to be hanging in the air after missing while they're on the ground ready to punish. Double jump becomes a very useful tool for setting up f-air spacing, as you can control the fall and range a little better. You should also learn to space it over moves as well, as the hitbox comes in around in arching motion to come over and skull crush a lot of moves. DK is a character where f-air can be very effective at competing with his own spacing game and beating a lot of his ground game.

Edgeguarding with f-air is something that should be used a little more often as well. It's definitely risky, especially with walk off f-air, because you barely grab the ledge to make it back, which can allow for an edgehog from decently smart players if you miss. Walk off f-air is still a main edgeguard in my book though. It requires almost no set up time if your near the ledge (tipman and stomp still require set up times that are much easier to see coming,) covers a very wide area, and will blast people off the side at fairly early percents.

I see f-air becoming a very big part of Ganondorf's game as we go along, as it's a very decent spacing tool that is fairly safe, causes lots of damage and knockback, and can out space even Marth in some scenarios. It's definitely something that can completely trump MKs range. I know that f-air can completely pressure a lot of opponents with a far reaching move that can KO a lot of characters at surprisingly low percents, and that can out space most characters in the game. It has its own weaknesses, but overall with proper use, it becomes a very deadly tool in Ganon's arsenal.

EDIT: Yes crunch, I put it better than you did :D. Lol, I don't think it takes a bunch of devotion, but it does take some work to make f-air extremely viable in a higher level of play.

Lex Crunch · Jan 22, 2009

Is it just me, or does the sweetspot of F-Air have noticeably good priority?

Honestly though, it's not really as hard as anyone makes it out to be, in my opinion. I think it's awesome, and is basically second nature at this point. I love Swoops for promoting it and doing a good job of it, too. =D

(I don't have the specs, rep, or skill to promote it well XD)

Z1GMA · Jan 22, 2009

The only Ganon-color with red hair, is actually the Default one.
It's not a "Myth bust", but it's pretty odd..

Lex Crunch said:
Is it just me, or does the sweetspot of F-Air have noticeably good priority?

I too, get that feeling.
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
EDIT: Now I've red what you posted, Swoops. A good read it was...
(I was to lazy to read it earlier)

What input do you specificly use when you Fair space?
I use [Controlstick up] -> [C-stick], almost simultaneously.
Retreating SH Fair, is pretty good in my experience.

Actually,, Fair is almost like an airborne Fsmash.
SHFF Fair Oos is a hell of a punisher, and a lot faster than Fsmash.

hyperstation · Jan 22, 2009

See, this is what I'm talking about.

A quick, sloppy, gangbang of information. Keep it up, guys. I'll add a bit about just DJing the Falco Spike, but I have a feeling at a certain percent, you're just gonna have to tech it.

Updating the OP later, and still looking for as many topics as you guys can throw at me.

Dolphination · Jan 22, 2009

I have been using F-air for ages and it really is great. The pushback frees you up even against marths that I have played they couldnt hit me after a shield. If you arent spamming it, it's not only extremely scary to see flying at you but it's extremely scary to see flying at you 0_o. AND I have used it in place of Dair or Uair spikes off stage because since I spike a lot people think they can read my movement and expect me to come down on them so when I jump straight out at them, they cannot escape the massive range of Fair coming out to send them to who knows where. It's practical uses are pretty much retreating and I use it to pnish when my dair or fsmash cant. Example, 3D's Up-B landing. And thats my piece o the pie.

Highly underrated move...freaking owns.

Teronist09 · Jan 22, 2009

I've had to get progressively good with fair spacing because I hold my controller sideways when I play, so I wiff uair's into fair ALL the time.

hyperstation said:
KOSK, for god's sake I trust you, but I need vids or corroboration from other Ganons.

I hold up with the control stick and smash di with cstick down and out and get out at around 29%. Di both up and out and you can dj out at about 36 I think.

Is teching out of any part of IC's chaingrab possible/realistic?

hyperstation · Jan 22, 2009

Teronist09 said:
Is teching out of any part of IC's chaingrab possible/realistic?

I thought about adding that topic, of course, but I believe that when played correctly, ICs chaingrabs are guaranteed 0-death NO MATTER WHAT. We're talking top of the metagame though. I play a little IC and I can't do it consistently.

Ray_Kalm · Jan 22, 2009

As Z1GMA said, FAir is like a airborne FSmash. I use it regularly against characters heavier in weight, though I tend to save it's raw power to kill those lighter in weight (Metaknight, Marth). The "curve" Ganon makes goes slightly inward (common knowledge), inward enough to avoid a couple of moves and punish at the same time, and which could be enough to kill middle/low weights at decent percentages.

A2ZOMG · Jan 22, 2009

F-air gives G&W a huge scare when you outspace him with it. =)

Swoops · Jan 22, 2009

Z1GMA said:
What input do you specificly use when you Fair space?
I use [Controlstick up] -> [C-stick], almost simultaneously.
Retreating SH Fair, is pretty good in my experience.

Actually,, Fair is almost like an airborne Fsmash.
SHFF Fair Oos is a hell of a punisher, and a lot faster than Fsmash.

I'm 'bout to mythbust a nut up in here.

Well, I guess do each his own, but I personally wouldn't do that simultaneously just because you have almost no control over fall speed and I suspect you left lingering in the air a bit. I personally always fast fall into my opponent/opponent's shield unless they are in the air. It takes more advantage of the arch of the move, and it eliminates any extra frames of vulnerability after the move is completed. Retreating is awesome with it, but again you have to make sure you're actually retreating against something and you are hitting them or their shield. I cannot stress enough how much completely whiffing a f-air hurts you.

F-air OoS is like 6 frames faster than a shield drop>f-smash. I might do a little more research for OoS f-air as a punisher for very laggy moves, but for the time being I would usually just use f-tilt in place of it.

:034: · Jan 23, 2009

Time to bust this nut once and for all:

Ganondorf CAN jump out of shield when tap jump is off. You can still do uair/nair/dair/bair/fair/usmash out of shield if you have tap jump off. The only OoS option that goes away is Up B.

hyperstation · Jan 23, 2009

I updated the OP with information that I believe to be correct or at least corroborated by a few sources. I'm not totally convinced about the DI/SDI of FTilt Lock with Sheik because I'm not familiar enough with the move to notice when my escape is caused by Sheik input error or my DI. Everything is subject to change, of course. Good work, everyone. Let's keep it going.

I don't know when I'll do this as I'm going out of town for a day or two this weekend, but I thought of a good idea to continue expanding the FAir discussion (which admittedly may need to be moved to its own topic at some point). I was thinking I'd capture a FAir in 1/4 Speed at perfect spacing from a dummy and then overlay each frame of the FAir into one image.

As I see it, there are two important aspects that need to be diagrammed in an image. 1) the path and curvature of Ganon's arm. 2) the hitbox and specifically the sweetspot. We could use this composite image to easily show the curvature, and with a little more testing we could probably diagram with some degree of accuracy exactly where the hitbox and sweetspot are located. I don't mind doing the composite image once my time allows it, but I won't be taking up the reigns on the hitbox diagramming as I am not the FAir authority here. Swoops, would you take care of that if I make the image for you?

MK26 · Jan 23, 2009

Flying Dutchman said:
Time to bust this nut once and for all:

Ganondorf CAN jump out of shield when tap jump is off. You can still do uair/nair/dair/bair/fair/usmash out of shield if you have tap jump off. The only OoS option that goes away is Up B.

You dont lose any oos options with tap jump off
While holding shield and up on the control stick, press jump and b at the same time to up-b oos

Also, the u-air of the gonzo combo is sdi-able, but ganon might fall too quickly to escape a reverse u-tilt
and around 20%, you can di the throw away and the u-air will miss

fromundaman · Jan 24, 2009

Okay, so about that Utilt thing I was SO excited about on the first page... Yeah, it happens very randomly and rarely, and to be honest, I don't know why and can't find out, but it seems far from consistent... Guess that's useless...

:034: · Jan 24, 2009

MK26 said:
You dont lose any oos options with tap jump off
While holding shield and up on the control stick, press jump and b at the same time to up-b oos

Well, I usually prefer to not do this, since the ones that need up+b out of shield use tap jump for faster activation (Samus/Bowser) and/or invincibility frames (Marth/MK). Thanks for the tip, though.

hyperstation · Jan 24, 2009

Thanks for the input, MK26/Maestro.

This thread's starting to come along. I'd like it if people start submitting areas of Ganon's play to reanalyze in addition to just responding to the issues I already have posted. This is for US, not me.

fromundaman · Jan 26, 2009

Could someone else try to see if they can figure out that Utilt thing I posted earlier. While I still can't find any way to do it consistently, it would be so awesome to get free Utilts that I'm really hoping some of you smarter, more experienced Ganon players can figure it out.

PK-ow! · Jan 26, 2009

fromundaman said:
I was going to look into this a little more before posting it, but since it would fit in the scope of this thread, I think I have found a way to get a guaranteed Utilt.

I did this against a ****ty TL (That's the only reason this situation occured):
He Dairs, but misses, and I accidentally Utilt (**** Kirby habits!). What happened was that he was suspended in the air right above the stage by the wind in Dair animation until the Utilt hit him. I plan on trying this with other moves that force the user down (Kirby's FC, Sonic/ZSS/G&W/ICs Dair, Yoshi's Down B, D3's UpB (You have no idea how much I hope this one works!), any freefall state, or any other animation that only ends when you hit the ground (or stays out long enough for a Utilt if not ground canceled).).

Okay.
Okay.
Whoa.
Okay.

EDIT: 4:22, this vid: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5C_qwpSUwps&feature=related

There's a vid I saw... I could have sworn it was the Legan set (it was vs. a red ganon on Smashville)... and I *know* the only Link vids I watched were LEgan's, so that narrows it down....
-anyway, where Link's boomerang returns to him, and it syncs with a Dsmash he cleanly lands on this Ganondorf. The Ganon, rather than go anywhere, just moves a modest distance to Link's other side. Ganon's damage was ~80% so he should have been in the air no matter what magic DI he had.
But this is something Link users have to keep in mind and it's that Boomerang seems to change the knockback of the other move. And yes, you can't believe Boomerang merely overrode anything... it's from how the Ganon moved. It wasn't consistent with the Boomerang's "push", it was just like the knockback of the attack was less.

So I'm thinking, the wind property, has the power to cancel this kind of momentum. Or powerfully interfere with it.

To our advantage.

If it really does work on a range of moves like that, this could be huge.

*~*~*~
On a related note, I seriously doubt you can cancel utilt. I tried... anything I could think of. I just don't see how there's enough room for an exploit in the 'A attack' system to exist.

That is, unless we have even a single anecdote of it happening. But if the idea came from nothing.... I'm calling it a myth. A fancy. A fantasy! A mirage we must not let distract us from the true path.

fromundaman · Jan 26, 2009

PK-ow! said:
Okay.
Okay.
Whoa.
Okay.

EDIT: 4:22, this vid: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5C_qwpSUwps&feature=related

There's a vid I saw... I could have sworn it was the Legan set (it was vs. a red ganon on Smashville)... and I *know* the only Link vids I watched were LEgan's, so that narrows it down....
-anyway, where Link's boomerang returns to him, and it syncs with a Dsmash he cleanly lands on this Ganondorf. The Ganon, rather than go anywhere, just moves a modest distance to Link's other side. Ganon's damage was ~80% so he should have been in the air no matter what magic DI he had.
But this is something Link users have to keep in mind and it's that Boomerang seems to change the knockback of the other move. And yes, you can't believe Boomerang merely overrode anything... it's from how the Ganon moved. It wasn't consistent with the Boomerang's "push", it was just like the knockback of the attack was less.

So I'm thinking, the wind property, has the power to cancel this kind of momentum. Or powerfully interfere with it.

To our advantage.

If it really does work on a range of moves like that, this could be huge.

*~*~*~
On a related note, I seriously doubt you can cancel utilt. I tried... anything I could think of. I just don't see how there's enough room for an exploit in the 'A attack' system to exist.

That is, unless we have even a single anecdote of it happening. But if the idea came from nothing.... I'm calling it a myth. A fancy. A fantasy! A mirage we must not let distract us from the true path.

Yeah, but for some reason the wind properties don't *appear* to consistently interfere with momentum. If we could figure out the mechanics behind the wind momentum changing, we might be able to land free Utilts (Yeah, I know, I have a single track mind...).

Also, you can occasionally cancel Utilts when stages change, as I mentioned in the post you quoted. I can't see it ever being practical though...

hyperstation · Jan 30, 2009

So I just tried for over an hour to take footage of a sweet-spot FAir and compress it into a composite image in which each frame would be overlayed on the previous. It would have been nice to have so we could chart the line of curvature of his arm, but it turned out to be exceedingly difficult and my computer got really cranky. If anyone has a good way to do this, please do. I really want that image...I think it would be really helpful.

EDIT: NVM, I GOT IT!

I hope this is of SOME help to anybody. I really wanted to see an overlayed image like this with the arc of his attacking arm drawn out. I think it looks pretty dope...Enjoy:

:034: · Jan 31, 2009

****! I thought I was tripping (sakuraaaaii) for a while there, but it was just the picture.

PK-ow! · Feb 2, 2009

I can't see anything, DAD.

If you have frame-by-frame, then it would be more helpful to center the images on some fixed point (like some reference point from which the game draws his sprite*), and arrange them in some kind of viewable list.
Or just make a .gif.

*what's the correct term for a 3D render?

I have my own ponderings...
If you Murder Choke at Ice Climbers, how does it resolve a grab from them? Controller port?
Wouldn't that make Choke actually something safe to do in close range - compared to attacking into a (shield)grab of death?

Z1GMA · Feb 2, 2009

Cool pic..
It looks like Ganon's crushing Snake's skull!

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

PK-ow! said:
I can't see anything, DAD.

If you have frame-by-frame, then it would be more helpful to center the images on some fixed point (like some reference point from which the game draws his sprite*), and arrange them in some kind of viewable list.
Or just make a .gif.

*what's the correct term for a 3D render?

I have my own ponderings...
If you Murder Choke at Ice Climbers, how does it resolve a grab from them? Controller port?
Wouldn't that make Choke actually something safe to do in close range - compared to attacking into a (shield)grab of death?

The image IS centered. I had the camera on Zoom and it only moved up and down. I used the line in the background of Pictochat to orient every image to the same height regardless of the camera's location. I've been thinking of ways to clean up/alter the image, and I have a few ideas, but as it stands, I actually find it quite informative.

The curve is actually incorrect, though. The FAir begins at the highest point, so the arch should actually start at the top left of the Ganon composite, follow his hand downwards then ACROSS his body to connect the blow on the bottom right. I'm going to change this.

Ref · Feb 2, 2009

I knew ganon was a mythbusta....

Also I will now proceed to pick up Ganondorf as a character and play him.

Well my ganon is good on wifi at least.

Also What is up with Ganon's Nair...? Which leg is the sweetspot? That always confused me...

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