hyperstation
Smash Lord
GANON IZ A MYTHBUSTA
Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings, or
How We Can Rise Up and Overcome
Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings, or
How We Can Rise Up and Overcome
The Purpose
First of all, there may be some overlap between this thread and Kalm's match-up thread. This is because the purpose of this thread is to unpack a lot of the shortcomings of Ganon's competitive game in an attempt to remedy them, find solutions, and make advances with Ganon in the competitive scene. Part of this process is going to be looking as specific aspects of Ganon's worst match-ups - the techs/moves/issues in general that just **** Ganon causing 70-30, 80-20, or 90-10 match-ups - and seeing if there's ANYTHING we can do about it. Bear in mind, we are NOT doing match-up discussions. We're breaking it down to specifics. Much of our search will be fruitless, to be sure, but this is the thread where we put all our cards on the table and see if we have anything CLOSE to a winning hand. I'm going to start with just a few topics, but I think this topic - not unlike DSL - should be a proverbial gangbang of information with many topics happening at once, because we're probably going to see overlap.
The Process of Character Interrogation
Join a match-up chatroom, and instead of just asking "1v1 EC USA Tourny Rules," say, "1v1 EC USA Tourny Rules. I'm looking for experience versus some of Ganon's worst match-ups: Shiek, Falco, DDD, ZSS, MK..." or whomever your heart desires. You might also lurk the boards of your most feared adversaries, surveying a Who's Who of that character. Once you know who's nasty with whatever character you're studying, send a PM, explain your plight, and tell them you're looking to get your a$s handed to you. Anecdote: today I did exactly this in the AiB Matchmaking Chat. I asked specifically for ZSS, Shiek, Falco, etc. I got a guy who was great with ZSS and more than proficient with Shiek. When playing his Shiek, I asked him to do me the favor of FTilt locking me as often as he could in order to try to get good DI out of it. I still need work, but he obliged, and it was very helpful. I also asked him to chaincamp on BF. I wanted the worst of the worst. After a couple matches against each character, I was going even with both of them. How about that?
The idea is that you subject yourself to the worst conditions and techniques of a given match-up and see what you can come up with. Obviously it may take a little bit of effort to find someone willing to help you, but if your Ganon is dope, people generally have a hard time turning down that fight because it's just too d*mn fun.
The idea is that you subject yourself to the worst conditions and techniques of a given match-up and see what you can come up with. Obviously it may take a little bit of effort to find someone willing to help you, but if your Ganon is dope, people generally have a hard time turning down that fight because it's just too d*mn fun.
Beyond Match-ups: Problems in General
This aspect of the Myth Bustaz thread could perhaps be the most fruitless. For instance, how the eff do we get rid of RCO lag? If we can't get rid of it, let's finally write out, in detail, how you handle it correctly (I'll take that charge). Best methods of avoiding gimping/handling your second jump and up+B recovery? How can we use Utilt safely and effectively? These are the types of issues we will be diving into as well. Certain problematic aspects of Ganon's play are far more holistic than Shiek's FTilt lock or Falco's CG. These problems are inherent to Ganon and we need to find ways to overcome or avoid them.
CHARACTER SPECIFIC
:shiek:
- FTilt/FTilt Lock: What is the proper DI and SDI to escape this? Is there an escape at low percentages, or do you just grin and bear it until the knock back is high enough that you can evade? How about any other general tips about this Ganonrape tactic?
To Hyperstation:
Sheiks should never have an ftilt input error, it's extremely easy. The beat should be burned into our muscle-memories by now.
1. Idk. Usually 15-20 - 50-80 (character dependant) (With DI) On you, probably 60? Idk, don't play many Ganons.
2. You won't 'escape' per-say. You can DI so that we are forced to turn around to keep tilting or finish our ftilt combo... -> nair, utilt, possibly Usmash vs Ganon...
3. You DI towards Sheik. Maybe SDI works better, idk, don't do Sheik mirrors. But it would still be towards Sheik. Also, Characters with invincibility on the first few frames of input willbe able to use that move to escape. Ex. Marth's Dolphin Slash. I don't think Ganon has anything like that though.Ftilt lock with Shiek. DI and SDI down at early percentages and get your ****ing shield up. I assume this stops working around 20%+.Marsulas][COLOR="yellow said:Her ftilt is a beast in this matchup obviously. You all are aware of escaping it at early percentages with down DI and then getting up your shield. Experienced Sheik players will ftilt a couple of times at early percentages and then immediately go into a dsmash, jabs, or a grab. After you DI down and then get your shield up....immediately roll backwards.
At mid percentages it really is just a matter of not getting hit with her ftilt. If you are ever in a position where you are in your shield and Sheik is just ftilting away, full hop and then go from there......anything that Sheik can do to you in the air is nothing compared to what ftilt will do to you. Even on a powershield there is little you can do if the Sheik player buffers her ftilt correctly.
One thing i've found to be semi-reliable as i've played as Ganon in this matchup is to powershield, SH a bit out of range from her ftilt, and then catch her with an aerial Gerudo. This is extremely risky if the Sheik player happens to spotdodge it however....so only use it as a mixup every once in a while.
If you spotdodge an ftilt, do not attemp a jab or dtilt or any other possible close range option you have. Sheik's jab, ftilt, and utilt will outspeed anything in your moveset and you will find yourself in a deadly frame trap. Your best option would be to roll or jump away and reset your spacing.
In fact I would recommend spotdodging an awful lot in this matchup because her only real threat to beat a spotdodge on the ground would be her utilt. If you are facing an ftilt crazy Sheik.....spotdodging can be a life saver[/COLOR]. - Chain-Camping in general and Chain-Camping Under Platforms on BF: How can you approach this? Is this truly spamable to the point of non-approach (assume the Shiek is competent)? I've not been exposed to chain-camping much, but during the match-up discussion this technique was talked about a lot.
Flamingo (from a PM) said:The only thing of Ganon's that will go through the chain I have experienced is going diagonally from the air toward Sheik with a Down+B. It has hit me quite a bit.Marsulas said:A lot of Sheik users(myself included), will love to praise the chain and all of its glory. It is true that technically with perfect use Ganon can not do a **** thing.....but I found a small trick.
It is extremely hard for me to maintain chain coverage behind myself when protecting from the front and it takes a little while for me to transition behind me if my opponent lands behind the chain. Full hop over the chain, land behind Sheik, and when Sheik moves the chain behind quickly SH and wizkick onto the top of Sheik. This is really one of the only ways I have ever been able to sneak past the chain and its devilry. - Sheik's Grab Game: Some notes on how she will be using her grab game and how you can avoid/prepare for many of the issues that come with it. She likes to use grabs to set you up for her phenomenal gimps.
Marsulas said:Her grab game isn't amazing, but she is quick enough to make it seem that way at times. If your in the habit of immediately airdodging after being thrown, you will easily get hit by Sheiks nair or bair.
Probably her best and most used throw is going to be fthrow. Most average Sheik players will love to fthrow and immediately SH fair to try to knock you offstage. This is easily avoidable if you DI down and away on her fthrow. The better Sheik players, however, will fthrow and walk into a shield>utilt>ftilt on Ganon.........something you should be very aware of.
She does have some nasty tricks on Ganon out of a ground release since he is in perfect range for an ftilt or a dash grab. Once again if you ever suspect a grab release, a spotdodge is your best friend and then immediately get the hell out of there. I personally love to release to a needle storm and if it's shielded then I regrab.
- Grab Issues: Is Gonzo Combo truly inescapable? Does Ganon stand no chance before 60% if he's grabbed?
...The u-air of the gonzo combo is sdi-able, but ganon might fall too quickly to escape a reverse u-tilt
and around 20%, you can di the throw away and the u-air will miss.
- Chain Grabbing: Any way in hell to escape it?
CG -> DAir 0-DEATH: Is this truly Ganon's demise?NO! This myth has been BUSTED...kinda. It depends on the stage, but you can DI and SDI INTO the stage as soon as Falco's DAir connects and tech off the ledge. It's not perfect, and it's hard to do, but it's certainly nice to know. View this vid: Surviving Falco's Spike
HOLISTIC ISSUES
- RCO Lag: Any theories on how the hell we could cancel this? If not, talk about the methods you use to handle it efficiently. I can do a write up/vid either here or at DSL at some point, but I'm more interested in if anyone has even a glimmer of hope for canceling RCO.
- Reassessing FAir: Swoops, this one is just for you. You've spoken of FAir recently as your newest spacing fetish. Kalm, I know you agree having spoken to you recently about it. Hook us up. I've added a composite image of FAir for anyone's reference during discussion:
As for f-air, every Ganondorf main should be learning to space this very, very well. It should be your second nature to pull this out and hit with the very end of your fist. It would be helpful for someone to get a hitbox pic, but I can try to get a detailed one.
When hitting with the inside portion of the f-air, it does much less knockback, much less shield stun and pushback, and a little bit less damage. Land with the just the tip of this move (the area arches from directly above and in front of Ganon when it starts out, and decent amount below him when it finishes,) and it does insane knockback, often killing medium weights off the side of the stage as early as 70%, pushes their shield back very far, and does a good amount of shield stun for Brawl. The shield stun and pushback are good enough to where most characters won't have quick enough moves to dole out the punishment. Of course, there are quick enough dash attacks, and definitely tether grabs that can take advantage of the lag, but that's why you have to know who you're fighting against.
You must know that if you don't connect with either the opponent or a regular shied (not powershield,) you will get punished. That is what becomes slightly tricky with f-air as you go along. You have the start up frames, and you have to be in juuuust the right range. Sounds hard, but it's just tricky sometimes. You have to be in the right range to stay outside theirs and hit with the sweetspot, but inside the right range to where you don't miss and get screwed. Spot dodging and powershielding seems like a problem at first, but with the timing of f-air, it becomes a little bit harder for them to time spot dodges and PSing.
Spacing f-air just takes quite a bit of practice and getting used to. Make sure that you fast fall the attack into their shield and range a lot, otherwise you're going to be hanging in the air after missing while they're on the ground ready to punish. Double jump becomes a very useful tool for setting up f-air spacing, as you can control the fall and range a little better. You should also learn to space it over moves as well, as the hitbox comes in around in arching motion to come over and skull crush a lot of moves. DK is a character where f-air can be very effective at competing with his own spacing game and beating a lot of his ground game.
Edgeguarding with f-air is something that should be used a little more often as well. It's definitely risky, especially with walk off f-air, because you barely grab the ledge to make it back, which can allow for an edgehog from decently smart players if you miss. Walk off f-air is still a main edgeguard in my book though. It requires almost no set up time if your near the ledge (tipman and stomp still require set up times that are much easier to see coming,) covers a very wide area, and will blast people off the side at fairly early percents.As Z1GMA said, FAir is like a airborne FSmash. I use it regularly against characters heavier in weight, though I tend to save it's raw power to kill those lighter in weight (Metaknight, Marth). The "curve" Ganon makes goes slightly inward (common knowledge), inward enough to avoid a couple of moves and punish at the same time, and which could be enough to kill middle/low weights at decent percentages.F-air OoS is like 6 frames faster than a shield drop>f-smash. I might do a little more research for OoS f-air as a punisher for very laggy moves, but for the time being I would usually just use f-tilt in place of it. - UTilt Usage: I've got plenty on this one, but the discussion should be started all around. I'll put my 2 cents together after the discussion gets rolling
Z1GMA said:*Triggers couter moves, such as Marth's.
****** Charizzard when he's using Rock smash.
*"Utilt surfin". DAD~ (DAD's Note: Using the moving platform on Smashville, set up a UTilt facing in TOWARDS the stage while the platform is on the far left or right of the stage and is beginning to move into the stage. It's a relatively safe position vs many opponents and can catch tall opponents standing on the stage since UTilt's hitbox actually extends slightly BELOW the moving platform.
* Vs Ike's recovery.
*DAD's Note: Triggering Snakes C4 (but not remote mines, if I remember correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
And, I just did some testing. (probably common knowledge)
*The sucktion alone, renews stale moves. (DAD's Note: the suction still must connect for it to negate stale moves. Idea: in 2v2s, use it against your team mate and have the roll out of the hit box. With a Fox as a teammate, you could have Fox stand IN the wind "hitbox", allow it to connect, then immediately laser you out of it. Doing this in sequence over and over again would refresh both team mates moves and cause little damage to Ganon.)
*The wind of the Utilt has to connect, or just scratch your opponent (or any "object" - baloons, etc)
It doesn't matter if they're in the wind for just a 1/10 sec, or 2 entire seconds; It still just counts as "1 hit". Also, if they are hit by both the wind AND the explosion, it still counts as "1 hit" (1 input)
If you catch them with the wind while they are already shielding, they WILL get hit by either the wind OR the explosion.. Cause if they roll away they will get "winded" in the roll-lag at the start of the roll-animation. - UTilt Canceling: Like the RCO topic, any distant dreams of how we could possibly cancel it? In all likelihood, it's not possible, but let's be honest...we all are kept awake at night dreaming about it. As of now, the only known methods of canceling UTilt include stage interference (i.e. the conveyor belts on P.S.2) or enemy interference. I've suggested a hypothetical Ganondorf/Fox team in which Fox uses a single laser to strategically cancel Ganon's UTilt without any knockback. In all likelihood, this isn't a very useful technique, but I figured it was worth noting incase it spurs any thoughts
- OoS Aerials: Tap Jump ON or OFF? According to Flying Dutchman, any aerial can be performed OoS with Tap Jump OFF that can be performed with Tap Jump ON
with the exception of Up B.
You dont lose any oos options with tap jump off
While holding shield and up on the control stick, press jump and b at the same time to up-b oos.
A Note to ALL Contributors
I want TONS of recommendations for these lists. Let's get this thing hitting fast and hard. Anything you got, throw it out there. This thread doesn't have to be pretty. If you're an "outsider" (that is, not a Ganon main, though this term is not intended to offend), please treat us with respect if disproving a myth we've attempted to bust. That is, don't get all high and mighty in telling us we were wrong about something, because it's COMPLETELY possible we are indeed wrong. Let's not derail the thread the way it happens so often in match-up discussions. This goes for Ganon mains too...be respectful. This thread is to be a sloppy, quick brainstorming session, and its tone should remain LIGHTHEARTED. I'm tired of angry threads.
Thanks, everybody,
<3 DAD
Thanks, everybody,
<3 DAD