The "Salmon smash"

Z1GMA · Feb 1, 2009

(( This thread isn't about Fsmashing out of a dashdance (which is old; yea I know). It's about the extra range, 5 characters gets, when performing it correctly. ))

Speaking of range:
Ganon's Studder step Fsmash, is good. - [Forward + Fsmash]
Turn around Fsmash, is better. - [Backward + Fsmash]
Salmon smash, is amazing. - [smash Forward > smash Backward + Fsmash]

It's a dashdance canceled Fsmash; which makes him teleport (sort of) and then Turn around Fsmash.
I named it "Salmon smash" cause Ganon wiggles like a Salmon, before planting his elbow in the face of his enemies.

Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Shiek & Sonic, are the only ones that can perform this kind of studderstep-smash.
(Ganon, Falcon & Mario, get's the most range-bonus)

Video:
http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rPg1TOrZQ&feature=channel_page

3x Fsmash - 3x SS Fsmash - 3x Turn around Fsmash - 3x Salmon smash
(Ganon starting as far to the left as possible)

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Dr. Hyde · Feb 1, 2009

Srsly? This doesn't seem possible. Even with Brawls amazing physics!!!(sarcasm)
but **** this is dumb just dumb
I love it great find

Gleam · Feb 1, 2009

Bravo, bravo Zigma. Bravo indeed.

All Praise the Swedish Ganon.

hyperstation · Feb 1, 2009

Atta boy, Z1gma. This is not the same method I mentioned a while ago, but when you informed me of this, I compared the distance to the method to which I was referring, and it seems comparable. The method I'm referring to is more situational as it is part of my Spot Dodge research. You'll understand soon enough. :lick:

In other news, is Z1gma the man or what?

Ray_Kalm · Feb 1, 2009

Z1gma, your contributions to the Ganon boards and Ganon's metagame, never seems to stop.

hyperstation · Feb 1, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Z1gma, your contributions to the Ganon boards and Ganon's metagame, never seems to stop.

His Ganon's got that heady, Scandinavian edge that we North American Ganons just miss out on. The roots of Black Metal are in the earth close to where he's from, so you can't be surprised he has a special touch with the King of Evil.

Metal_Dave · Feb 1, 2009

So I haven't been on these boards in a while, and I was hoping this would be a major breakthrough, but this has already been established. At least down here in SFL it has been.

Anomilus · Feb 1, 2009

Wait wait.... I could have sworn I was always doing that. When I learned of the Stutter-step FSmash, I also remember hearing of two methods - Hitting Back + Side CStick for increased ranged, then quickly hitting Forward > Back + Side CStick for an even larger increase in distance. I've been using both methods for months! (the longer method took a bit more time to get down since I was using it on Wifi)

...You mean this wasn't already common knowledge!? <___>

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

To the above two posters:

As far as I know, this is new. I think you're remembering incorrectly what people referred to as the 3rd method of Fsmash which yielded the greatest distance. That method was slight push forward > Smash backward + C-Stick forward. I see how it's entirely possible that from this information someone would logically change the slight push forward to Smash forward, but nonetheless, I believe this is the first time this has been shown. If you guys have been doing it for a while, good on you, but screw you for not sharing. :lick:

SaltyKracka · Feb 2, 2009

hyperstation said:
To the above two posters:

As far as I know, this is new. I think you're remembering incorrectly what people referred to as the 3rd method of Fsmash which yielded the greatest distance. That method was slight push forward > Smash backward + C-Stick forward. I see how it's entirely possible that from this information someone would logically change the slight push forward to Smash forward, but nonetheless, I believe this is the first time this has been shown. If you guys have been doing it for a while, good on you, but screw you for not sharing.

Um...no. I've known about this for months. Hell, I think I learned about it in Sliq's guide, of all things.

There are two ways of stutter-stepping Fsmash.

Here's how you do the first and second SS Fsmashes, assuming you're facing right.

1. [Analog stick left, c-stick right]
2. [Analog stick left, analog stick right, c-stick left]

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

There's nothing in Sliq's guide about this. I just checked.

I recall with clarity a discussion we had about Stutter Stepped FSmashes a few months ago. There were 3 variations posted, not far from what you posted above:

1. analog stick SMASH right + c-stick right (good)
2. analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (better)
3. analog stick push right -> analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (best)
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(4). analog stick SMASH right -> analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (BESTEST)

I can see how it's easy to interpret the third option as the same thing as what Z1gma's showing here, but I assure you there has not been a post on this to my knowledge. The discussion about the third type posted above revolved around the fact that you were actually just walking a tiny bit forward with the push right then stuttering the smash out of that. If you managed to take push right and turn it into SMASH right either on accident or on purpose, good for you.

Z1gma, have you tried this out of a controlled dash dance? Is there any chance that each dash builds momentum and the FSmash could go even further? Just a thought. I doubt it, but I can dream, can't I?

fonzi21 · Feb 2, 2009

hyperstation said:
The discussion about the third type posted above revolved around the fact that you were actually just walking a tiny bit forward with the push right then stuttering the smash out of that. If you managed to take push right and turn it into SMASH right either on accident or on purpose, good for you.

the walking a tiny bit forward and then doing the turn around smash is the same thing as the salmon smash as long as that tiny bit is a dash. Yes you can dash any distance you want, and smash left on control stick and do your smash attack right ( you have to power shield cancel which loses time obviously but it's still the same effect). Which is your salmon smash at a different speed.

The only difference is the speed of doing it. Either I dash forward then quickly do a quick power shield cancel to a turn around smash, or I do the "salmon smash" there isn't really a difference besides the speed of the attack.

So I wouldn't consider this a "breakthrough"

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

You're not understanding, Fonzi...

First of all, you ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT (!!!!!!!!!!) "dash any distance you want then smash left on the control stick and do your smash attack right" ABSOLUTELY NOT. What Z1gma has shown here is essentially the child of Dash Dancing and Stutter Step FSmashing. Dash Dancing requires that you DASH CANCEL. You can only dash cancel with specific timing out of your dash.

Whether or not it's a "breakthrough" is MOOT. Look, a handful of very competent Ganons (Z1gma, Kalm, myself) are all intrigued by this, and I'll tell you EXACTLY why that is. We're intrigued because this method, as far as we know, MAXIMIZES our FSmash range. There's no arguing that. Whether or not you guys want to sit around and tug on eachother's salmons debating about whether or not this technique is new or how you've been "doing it for months" doesn't mean SH*T. Clearly not everyone's been doing it for months, and there's something here to be learned.

On topic now, please. There are questions that have been fielded that haven't been answered. Less salmon tugging, more head scratching, please.

Z1GMA · Feb 2, 2009

fonzi21 said:
Yes you can dash any distance you want, and smash left on control stick and do your smash attack right. Which is your salmon smash at a different speed.

You can't perform the turnaround Fsmash out of a flowing dash-animation; you have to interupt the dash-animation as soon as it started, or else Ganon will just slide/brake before you can Fsmash.

hyperstation said:
T
1. analog stick SMASH right + c-stick right (good)
2. analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (better)
3. analog stick push right -> analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (best)
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(4). analog stick SMASH right -> analog stick SMASH left + c-stick right (BESTEST)

Thx, for getting this down, DAD.

fonzi21 · Feb 2, 2009

your right I meant you can dash and quickly shield cancel and have the same effect. My fault. I forgot to mention about the shielding =(

I changed it.

I also understand it maximizes range. Which any advantage for Ganon is for the better. I'm not trying to flame anyone or anything, but this definitely has been known.

:034: · Feb 2, 2009

All I know and can reply about is that this is pretty amazing. And that Salmon Smash is a really dumb name, but oh well.

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

fonzi21 said:
your right I meant you can dash and quickly shield cancel and have the same effect. My fault. I forgot to mention about the shielding =(

Sooooooooo....actually you're talking about something completely part and parcel to this discussion which has little, if any, relevance to the topic.

Side Note: Shield Canceling with Ganon isn't terribly forgiving. You can't dash any distance you like and just throw up a shield. Like Dash Canceling, it's pretty frame specific.

Zerxion · Feb 2, 2009

I thought this has been known, or at least I know that I do it.

Edit: I found where it was, near the bottom of Gleam's thread for Ganon techs, it explains the 3 ways to SSfsmash. And DAD's earlier post, tapforward > smashbackward > cstickforward isn't much different than smashforward > smashbackward > cstickforward. In fact I do the latter because it makes it easier. This is more of a notification than a discovery.

fonzi21 · Feb 2, 2009

hyperstation said:
Sooooooooo....actually you're talking about something completely part and parcel to this discussion which has little, if any, relevance to the topic.

Side Note: Shield Canceling with Ganon isn't terribly forgiving. You can't dash any distance you like and just throw up a shield. Like Dash Canceling, it's pretty frame specific.

your post earlier you asked if you could do the smash out of a dash. I guess you meant without power shield canceling.

The only frames you can't do a power shield cancel is the start up frames of Ganon's dash. The salmon smash definitely excels because it can be done instantly instead of a dash to a powershield, turn around smash.

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

fonzi21 said:
your post earlier you asked if you could do the smash out of a dash. I guess you meant without power shield canceling.

The only frames you can't do a power shield cancel is the start up frames of Ganon's dash. The salmon smash definitely excels because it can be done instantly instead of a dash to a powershield.

I asked if you can do the smash out of a DASH DANCE and whether or not a longer dash dance would yield a longer Fsmash. Read again, please. We're eating this topic alive, and I don't want to have to keep correcting people.

fonzi21 · Feb 2, 2009

Your right. Sorry for the misread on the dash dance =D

Z1GMA · Feb 2, 2009

Copied from Gleam's thread:

Gleam said:
3rd stutter step (most distance gained)
quickly press right on the control stick then left on the control stick then right on the c-stick

This might be the same method as mine..
But who cares? I never said it was a new tech.
I just made a vid of Ganon's Fsmash-stuff.

Only thing I wan't to make clear, is that this is totally different from:
[Walk right > smash back > C-stick right]
It's both faster AND gives more range.

imo, walking and then back+Fsmash, isn't a technique on its own.
It's more like walkning, and then "Turnaround Fsmash"
It takes to much time to be concidered a fast and effective studderstep smash.

Anomilus · Feb 2, 2009

As Zerxion has mentioned, while there is this "Push Forward" method, this is actually the first time I've heard about that. Personally I've always been smashing forward then completing the rest of the inputs. Had I known this wasn't being utilized by other Ganon mains here, I would have said something, but I just assumed this was common knowledge by now. =/

I will say that while I was on Brawl confirming what I "already knew", I did take notice that the distance CAN be maximized with just the right amount of delay between smashing Forward and the rest of the inputs. Not to confuse with walking or anything. It still requires the dashdancing moment, but there is a slightly difference depending in its timing. It's a slight trade-off - a tiny bit slower, but just a bit lengthier, so it's definitely helpful to examine this technique.

As for some notable applications, I think it works really well with BDC'ing or even just any short-hopped use. One minute you're up and down in the air and your opponent is trying to get in your space, and the next minute you just jutted out a large distance with an elbow in their face. It's definitely a nice lil' surprise. =P

stRIP · Feb 2, 2009

Lulz

I tried it out in a friendly

and killed him, ELLBOW IN HIS FACE

Really nice Z1GMA u deserve a special title like "Discovery ganon" or something <3

DKKountry · Feb 2, 2009

Neat. Ima go try this out.

LinkSceptile333 · Feb 2, 2009

Awesome find!

But why is it called Salmon Smash? It could've at least been called "Elbow of Death".

Z1GMA · Feb 2, 2009

Find, or not, doesn't matter.
What really matters is that this is an awesome technique; which makes the range of Ganon's Fsmash, just slightly shorter than Wolf's regular Fsmash (no joke). On top of that, Ganon's Fsmash is hella powerful.

In fact, Falcon's Salmon smash, beats Wolf's regular Fsmash.

Also what matters is that Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Sonic & Shiek, are the only ones who's got this technique.

(Just tested it)

Zerxion said:
tapforward > smashbackward > cstickforward isn't much different than smashforward > smashbackward > cstickforward.

There's a pretty big difference in both speed & range. Trust me..

Zerxion · Feb 2, 2009

The input isn't much different I meant. (yeah the range and speed are noticable) It's nice that you made a vid on it though.

The "Salmon Smash" is pretty useful heheh.

Ray_Kalm · Feb 2, 2009

Z1GMA said:
Find, or not, doesn't matter.
What really matters is that this is an awesome technique; which makes the range of Ganon's Fsmash, just slightly shorter than Wolf's regular Fsmash (no joke). On top of that, Ganon's Fsmash is hella powerful.

In fact, Falcon's Salmon smash, beats Wolf's regular Fsmash.

Also what matters is that Ganon, Falcon, Mario, Sonic & Shiek, are the only ones who's got this technique.
(Just tested it)

There's a pretty big difference in both speed & range. Trust me..

Ganon has the most distance, right?

:034: · Feb 2, 2009

^ He just said Falcon's beats Wolf while Ganon's is slightly shorter than Wolf's. So I'd gamble on a 'no' there.

Ray_Kalm · Feb 2, 2009

Flying Dutchman said:
^ He just said Falcon's beats Wolf while Ganon's is slightly shorter than Wolf's. So I'd gamble on a 'no' there.

How did I not notice that?

hyperstation · Feb 2, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
How did I not notice that?

Ganjadorf. That's how.

Z1GMA · Feb 2, 2009

Though one must not forget about the extra range, that Ganon's
disjointed hitbox gives, in his Fsmash; Compared to Falcon's

A2ZOMG · Feb 2, 2009

I've known about this for a looooooooong time (like ever since I got the US Brawl release) and do it very rarely. Dash Dancing in Brawl is more trouble than it is worth especially since random tripping exists, and you already solidly outrange Marth's F-smash with a reverse F-smash.

And....you guys just discovered you could cancel Dash Dancing with a Smash? This existed even back in Melee. =/

:034: · Feb 3, 2009

hyperstation said:
Ganjadorf. That's how.

pssst

Marihuanadorf

Z1GMA · Feb 3, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
And....you guys just discovered you could cancel Dash Dancing with a Smash? This existed even back in Melee. =/

So which characters in melee, can improve their Fsmash range by turning their back against the enemy?

A2ZOMG · Feb 3, 2009

Z1GMA said:
So which characters in melee, can improve their Fsmash range by turning their back against the enemy?

Nobody, true that.

However, canceling a Dashdance into F-smash is OOOOOOOOOLD.

I'll repeat, you outrange Marth with stutter step F-smash, which is awesome. If you're good, and shield his F-smash (yeah, I think you have a REALLY tight window to punish from a normal shield), or see him whiff, it will punish him.

Z1GMA · Feb 3, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
However, canceling a Dashdance into F-smash is OOOOOOOOOLD.

Yea, I know it's very old. I too, have been doing it for months.

But this thread isn't about smashing out of your dashdance; which all characters can do.
It's more of a notification that Ganon + 4 more characters, are the only ones that gets an awesome range-bonus, from it. (Especially Ganon & Falcon)

I never said it was new. I Just made a vid. K? : )

-------

Ganjadorf has incredible disjointed hitboxes!

stRIP · Feb 3, 2009

Z1GMA said:
-------

Ganjadorf, has incredible disjointed hitboxes!

made my day

edit: hmm sry 4 offtopic but: Z1GMA some dittos now?

Z1GMA · Feb 3, 2009

OP edited:
(( This thread isn't about Fsmashing out of a dashdance (which is old; yea I know). It's about the extra range, 5 characters gets, when performing it correctly. ))

The "Salmon smash"

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

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