Free Uair on ganon when he releases you from his up b (+vid) - The 'backfire Uair'

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

One can get a free Uair in on ganon when he releases you from his up b, when you (the falcon) have around 90% damage, or more.

Due to the weird hitstun ganon's up b deals, one can only Uair ganon when he releases you from his up b when you have around 90% damage or more.

This is great when you are both at higher percents (you, the falcon and your opponent, the ganon) and you get caught in his up b, as his up b cannot kill you, but your 'backfire Uair' can kill him. This can be utilized by intercepting ganons recovery with letting yourself get hit by his up b (when you have around 90% damage or more) and then using your 'backfire Uair' to gimp him to his doom.

Due to this ganons will have to be careful with using their up b when their opponents are at higher percents.

We have tested this with sonic, MK and falcon, and all these chars can get a free aerial in when ganon up b's them when they have 90% damage or more.

The ganon community knows this. But most of you probably do not know this (only due to not playing ganon and probably not knowing such aspects of ganon).

Here is a video demonstrating the free Uair as one gets released, and how it does not work below around 90%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJy_Txvs74

Credit to Gf2tw for testing this with me, to make sure this works. ( gf2 is also the ganon in the vid showing how this works).

I think (almost) every character has at least one backfire aerial.
spread the word

choknater · Feb 26, 2009

Ooh, pretty nice! I wonder if it works with Sheik.

It has to be uairs that come out very quickly right? Hm... and maybe ones with wider hitboxes? Sheik's is very vertical... I guess I could test that out later.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

choknater said:
Ooh, pretty nice! I wonder if it works with Sheik.

It has to be uairs that come out very quickly right? Hm... and maybe ones with wider hitboxes? Sheik's is very vertical... I guess I could test that out later.

Yes, I think every character can do this.
It just needs to be quite a quick 'backfire aerial', the hitbox is not much of an issue, I presume.
Again, I think every character can do this, or at least, the majority of the cast.

Falcon
Sonic
MK

these three characters are tested+confirmed that they can do it. (when they have around 90% damage or higher).
In your case (sheiks case) I think sheiks Nair can be her 'backfire aerial'.

Camalange · Feb 26, 2009

Works with Sonic?

Sweet...

Can he use ANY aerial afterword?

Jim Morrison · Feb 26, 2009

No, just Fair and U-air.

DemonFart · Feb 26, 2009

oh yeah this really helps ganon...
lulz this is interesting.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

Camalange said:
Works with Sonic?

Sweet...

Can he use ANY aerial afterword?

Gf2tw said:
No, just Fair and U-air.

What Gf2 said.
I should have clarified not all aerials can be used as a backfire aerial.

Falcon's backfire aerial(s): only Uair
Sonic's backfire aerial(s): Fair and Uair
MK's backfire aeria(s)l: Fair and Uair

Again, I think (almost) every character has at least one backfire aerial.
spread the word

Noodlehead · Feb 26, 2009

could you do this against falcon?

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

Noodlehead said:
could you do this against falcon?

No.
Falcon's up b has too much knockback/hitstun, even when the opponent has around 90% damage.

Ganon's up b just turns weird after ganon's opponent has more than 90% damage..

on another note, marth's Fair is also confirmed to be a backfire aerial.

FB Dj_Iskascribble · Feb 26, 2009

Mk also has a sweetspot N-air backfire too

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

dj_Iskascribble said:
Mk also has a sweetspot N-air backfire too

Awesome.
When more characters' backfire aerial(s) are known, I will list them all in the OP of this thread.

DemonFart · Feb 26, 2009

=fair?

Wogrim · Feb 26, 2009

We don't need a thread for this. Just put it in a post in matchup discussion and leave it at that.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

Wogrim said:
We don't need a thread for this. Just put it in a post in matchup discussion and leave it at that.

Wait..what?
This deserves its own thread man.

This may mean that when we get ganon offstage (forcing him to up b), he loses a stock..

Darxmarth23 · Feb 26, 2009

I do stuff like this all the time when i am marth against ganon. it always leads to my tippered f-air.

fun stuff.

Liquid Gen · Feb 26, 2009

Bowser can do fair with this.

Old, but I like a thread on it; I haven't seen one made yet.

Wogrim · Feb 26, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Wait..what?
This deserves its own thread man.

This may mean that when we get ganon offstage (forcing him to up b), he loses a stock..

It deserves its own thread only because multiple characters can do this, and the thread should be in the Ganon boards because of that. Because of that, one post in our matchup discussion (linking to it and noting the Falcon-specific implications) would have been enough, and the discussion should continue there if you feel it's enough to change the matchup ratio.

You should also get an offstage video up to show the gimping, since I don't recall a Ganon ever using his up-B onstage.

1 more thing: did you try anything else out of it (I was thinking Raptor Boost in particular)?

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

Wogrim said:
It deserves its own thread only because multiple characters can do this, and the thread should be in the Ganon boards because of that. Because of that, one post in our matchup discussion (linking to it and noting the Falcon-specific implications) would have been enough, and the discussion should continue there if you feel it's enough to change the matchup ratio.

You should also get an offstage video up to show the gimping, since I don't recall a Ganon ever using his up-B onstage.

1 more thing: did you try anything else out of it (I was thinking Raptor Boost in particular)?

No I did not try special yet. I only tried them below 90% before we kinda figured out that it only works around 90% damage or higher.

I will test specials too, asap.

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

Of course, there's one thing you're all forgetting with this. If the Ganon is recovering properly, 90+% is enough to stagespike you easily. So, you're not going to be gimping Ganon with this.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
Of course, there's one thing you're all forgetting with this. If the Ganon is recovering properly, 90+% is enough to stagespike you easily. So, you're not going to be gimping Ganon with this.

The Uair will take away some momentum.
And 90% isn't enough to stagespike..right?

I thought ganon's needed more damage to do that.

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

1. Not enough momentum.
2. It probably won't gimp Ganon anyways. If anything, it'll only help him recover.
3. No, his Up-B stagespikes a lot earlier than 90%

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
1. Not enough momentum.
2. It probably won't gimp Ganon anyways. If anything, it'll only help him recover.
3. No, his Up-B stagespikes a lot earlier than 90%

Nah, not help him. If ganon has around 90% or higher himself he will lose a stock.
And the stage spike might be a problem, but as ganon has trouble with getting 'unstuck' under FD's lip when he gets stuck under it, there is a certain safety when intentionally getting grabbed.

Ganon will most likely up b you into the side of the stage, making you bounce away from the stage, instead of beeing stage spiked.

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Nah, not help him. If ganon has around 90% or higher himself he will lose a stock.
And the stage spike might be a problem, but as ganon has trouble with getting 'unstuck' under FD's lip when he gets stuck under it, there is a certain safety when intentionally getting grabbed.

Ganon will most likely up b you into the side of the stage, making you bounce away from the stage, instead of beeing stage spiked.

1. Nah, since uair will hit him up, then any decent Ganon will DI up and forwards and be able to recover.
2. The thing about FD's lip is that Ganon isn't the only one who has trouble recovering from under it, assuming you're even going to be playing on FD. (If not, then your point is rather moot.) As well, since the Ganon will be recovering, he won't even be able to get under there. If anything, assuming you don't get stagespiked (and you will, trust me), then you'll be put in a position where YOU won't be able to recover.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
1. Nah, since uair will hit him up, then any decent Ganon will DI up and forwards and be able to recover.
2. The thing about FD's lip is that Ganon isn't the only one who has trouble recovering from under it, assuming you're even going to be playing on FD. (If not, then your point is rather moot.) As well, since the Ganon will be recovering, he won't even be able to get under there. If anything, assuming you don't get stagespiked (and you will, trust me), then you'll be put in a position where YOU won't be able to recover.

I am talking about KOing ganon off the side with this, or sening him to far away to recover (wich is KO'd off the side I presume).

And I used the lip of FD as a guide line where he will up b, wich will most likely not result in a stage spike..

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I am talking about KOing ganon off the side with this, or sening him to far away to recover (wich is KO'd off the side I presume).

And I used the lip of FD as a guide line where he will up b, wich will most likely not result in a stage spike..

..........you really think that you're going to be able to KO Ganon off the side with your uair? Wow, that's just so incredibly stupid, I could honestly laugh. The only time that would work is when you could just kill Ganon anyways, and getting stagespiked for your troubles seems like a rather stupid idea.

And using FD as a guideline is rather flawed. Just like FD itself.....but anyways, any good Ganon will recover one way for FD, and another way for everywhere else, especially Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Lylat, and Battelfield. Even then, at 90+% you're going to get stagespiked, no matter how far FD's lip is.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
..........you really think that you're going to be able to KO Ganon off the side with your uair? Wow, that's just so incredibly stupid, I could honestly laugh. The only time that would work is when you could just kill Ganon anyways, and getting stagespiked for your troubles seems like a rather stupid idea.

And using FD as a guideline is rather flawed. Just like FD itself.....but anyways, any good Ganon will recover one way for FD, and another way for everywhere else, especially Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Lylat, and Battelfield. Even then, at 90+% you're going to get stagespiked, no matter how far FD's lip is.

Ok..
Killing with Uair is not stupid at all..lrn2falcon

also, you aren't able to stagespike on all stages, so even if you're right with your stage spike and all, this is still quite useable on stages where one cannot stage spike.

And without reliable appraoches/kill moves this is quite useful.

Skip2MaLoo · Feb 26, 2009

at 0 if you ledge hog ganon and he does his upb, i always knew you could kind of jump at him afterwards and get a knee. i believe its inescapable. I don't know any ganon's who uses up b on stage though..and offstage I'd rather just gimp him. If specials (forward b) works, then that'd be amazing.

EDIT: does the uair cancel momentum?

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

Killing with uair is not impossible, I agree, but my point is that you won't kill with it until percentages at which jumping into the **** is entirely pointless.

As for stages wherein you wouldn't be getting stagespiked, I will agree that there are a few. However, these stages are all uniformly in Ganon's favor anyways. So, it's rather a moot point. This doesn't give Falcon any advantages if he tries to jump into the ****.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
Killing with uair is not impossible, I agree, but my point is that you won't kill with it until percentages at which jumping into the **** is entirely pointless.

As for stages wherein you wouldn't be getting stagespiked, I will agree that there are a few. However, these stages are all uniformly in Ganon's favor anyways. So, it's rather a moot point. This doesn't give Falcon any advantages if he tries to jump into the ****.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this will turn the entire matchup around. not at all.
This is just another way for us to get an Uair in, wich will only be usefull if we aren't at around 150% ourselves offcourse.

But still, a way is a way

And you seem to underestimate the killing power of falcon's Uair.
It is commonly used as a kill move, as it can KO very nicely.

SaltyKracka · Feb 26, 2009

Mmmm, perhaps. However, if you can only get it off when you're at 90% or more, it's still nothing more than a way to kill both characters at once.

Zeallyx · Feb 26, 2009

SaltyKracka said:
Mmmm, perhaps. However, if you can only get it off when you're at 90% or more, it's still nothing more than a way to kill both characters at once.

I like how you put that. But it is untrue, especially on stages where one cannot stagespike.

I agree it is a risky approach. But when we ever get caught in you guys' up b near the end of a stock, this might save us

t3h n00b · Feb 26, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I think (almost) every character has at least one backfire aerial.
spread the word

heh maybe Falcon can get second last spot on the tier list now

Mmmm, perhaps. However, if you can only get it off when you're at 90% or more, it's still nothing more than a way to kill both characters at once.

Unless you're in a situation when you'd normally get killed by Dark Dive, you shouldn't die while doing this. It may not necessarily kill Ganondorf, but this sounds like it will have a very good chance to gimp his recovery if the Dark Dive was used offstage because Falcon's uair would presumably knock Ganon out of range for a second upB, or at least rack up easy damage.

Edit: Knee is too fast. I think it's the red.

F5Hazardousdoc · Feb 27, 2009

Ummmmmmmmmm

Is the uair coming out before he gets knocked away? Because if falcon uairs immediately after the Up B, and he's doing the animation of uair, you can't be stage spiked...

If you can land the uair after it, stage spike is no problem. You can't get stage spiked unless you're in a tumbling animation, actually, you'll just stick to the wall and can easily do a walljump and still have your second jump for further gimping. :|

If the uair comes out DURING the move and then falcon gets blasted away and goes into the tumbling animation, then stage spike is a worry, but I was under the influence that you perform a uair directly after you get blasted away, due to the hitstun being so lulzy.

t3h n00b · Feb 27, 2009

Now that I think about it, if you could spam uair (or any aerial) during the delay where Ganondorf or Falcon latches onto you, then why would anyone get stage spiked?

Face124 · Feb 27, 2009

Hmm... Intrestig stuff HazDoc. Can the Knee be ss'ed after his up-B? Also, Ganon dawg's up-B stage spikes a Falcon at about 47% and falcon's does it to g-dawg at about 18%. This definitely can't work against Falcon because falcon's up-B Has hitstun.

Kinzer · Feb 27, 2009

Yo 2K, from what I saw in the vid, it looked like you did it when Ganon's Dark Dive I think it's called would be mad decayed, have you tried it at different %ages with either some degree of decay or none at all?

Wogrim · Feb 27, 2009

About this 90%... from the vid it looks like it's relevant only when onstage because it just means you land before you can pull out an UAir; what does it have to do with offstage gimping?

Jim Morrison · Feb 27, 2009

We tried this in the air too, which is probably where you are when gimping. Same results, only works at 90% or more (we did it somewhere up to 150%). Also, we did this with and without stale up-b. And the way I see it, when ganon is hitting you with up-B, you're not totally against the stage. You don't get stage spiked if your doing an aerial before you hit the stage, so you won't get stage spiked.

Red-Blue · Feb 27, 2009

In the air, this'll work from 45%-100?% Depends on your DI though. You have do slightly DI up-inwards. Or else Falcon just gets released downwards.

Or that's atleast what I found out. I could be wrong, very wrong.

Zeallyx · Feb 27, 2009

Kinzer said:
Yo 2K, from what I saw in the vid, it looked like you did it when Ganon's Dark Dive I think it's called would be mad decayed, have you tried it at different %ages with either some degree of decay or none at all?

Gf2tw said:
We tried this in the air too, which is probably where you are when gimping. Same results, only works at 90% or more (we did it somewhere up to 150%). Also, we did this with and without stale up-b. And the way I see it, when ganon is hitting you with up-B, you're not totally against the stage. You don't get stage spiked if your doing an aerial before you hit the stage, so you won't get stage spiked.

What gf2 said

We did enough testing

and also, salty cracked didn't want to listen (wich was kinda logical) but I think the Uair will save you from getting stage spiked. As it comes out immediatly as you are released and this makes you experience almost no knockback (wich means that a stagespike will be unlikely).

Free Uair on ganon when he releases you from his up b (+vid) - The 'backfire Uair'

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