Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

_clinton · Apr 13, 2009

ROOOOY! said:
I don't see how Ness or Lucas, Lucas especially, have capacity for mind games. Sonic is good with 'mindgames' because he can usually punish the opponent for reacting for obvious reasons. All the fake-outs with speed, dash dances, shield cancelling, and all the rest of it give Sonic more options then pretty much all the cast. Of course, he's not perfect when it comes to all this. All these things to bait a reaction, even with Sonic's speed, are only really effective at medium close range, which in a way does kind of limit Sonic.

PK Fire's main use is punishing with both Ness and Lucas like I said already...they both have different uses for them that lets you throw them out pretty well...Lucas can travel to the top of FD...or across 3/4th of it in less than a second...Ness' PK Flash main use is to make someone screw up and make a mistake when recovering...hell they pretty much have a large number of uses overall

ROOOOY! said:
Mario being several places above Sonic must tie in with him being a better character. NO ONE can say with a straight face that Mario at the time of creation of this list was having as much tournament success as Sonic.

Actually I'm pretty sure the idea with the tier list factors in many things...not just tournament results...besides the way that list was formed was kind of a neat thing to look at in general as well...I mean they were really careful with how they made it you know >_>

ROOOOY! said:
I may have worded things wrong, as I don't think this makes sense reading it, but I hope you get my general point. Being a good character shouldn't raise your standing in the tier list, it just wrongly does at the moment (in some cases).

Fun fact...I don't give a **** about the tier list...

ROOOOY! said:
A SH air dodge sounds like a pretty sorry approach to me. Granted, Lucas' nair, which leads into a few things if I'm not mistaken is actually a good approach. The problem is, it's obviously coming at close range. This isn't down to the player being predictable, this is down to the lack of options of approaching that Lucas has. I'm not sure about his aerial acceleration, so I don't know how good he is at weaving aerials.

Ness and Lucas have great air movement...and considering how a short hop air dodge was just one thing I listed (he has PK Fire, fair, uair, dair, bair, Ftilt even) and my point of it being listed was just because when short hopped Lucas doesn't have to worry about any large down time (the idea is to get behind your foe if I was going to short hop an air dodge)

ROOOOY! said:
It's mostly around mid close range that Lucas has big problems, too close to camp and FIYAH, but too far away to directly attack (because of range problems.) Meanwhile, Sonic doesn't do great at close range, but excels at the range that Lucas has difficulty with.

Lucas doesn't really have range problems IMO...like Ness, Lucas has plenty of moves with good hit boxes...Lucas' ftilt is great...6 frames of start up time, with IASA frames, and more range than G&W's Dtilt...
Also retreating wise...Wavebounced PK Fire lets him run away pretty well...but have I talked about how open that move is? It has very little down time compared to Ness' for one thing...

ROOOOY! said:
It's hard to compare two vastly different characters, especially at 2:40 in the morning >_>

This is why Sonic should have talked about characters that are close to him 1st...C. Falcon, Pikachu, Squirtle, Fox, Diddy, and Zamus for example are all characters that have more in common with Sonic than Ness, Lucas, or Samus do...I mean the fact that they all use their speed in some way to screw with people is one thing...

I mean really...the point of this thread is just off as well IMO...it should be taking characters that Sonic has some things in common with and then trying to convince the reader on why you should pick Sonic...not *****ing about tier lists because of the TCs view (just saying...I'm 90% certain that Ness was 2nd in line to be talked about in this thread for just one real reason)

Chis · Apr 13, 2009

_clinton said:
Funny...because Ness and Lucas have a wide variety of choices as well for punishment...the point of Lucas' Dsmash for example is to punish defensive moves (mostly spot dodgers)...the point of Ness' yoyo is to punish defensive moves as well (mostly roll spammers)
Hell Lucas' usmash is meant for punishment as well...

Almost everyone's down smash punishes rolls so....everyone can punish, and Sonic's down smash punishes spot dodges as well. I'm saying how constantly and effectively you can punish when your 'mind game' works. Can you show me some good examples of Ness' and Lucas' "mind games"? I would like to get a better idea.

Funny...because the point of Ness' Bthrow is to start using it at around 130% (it isn't 140...130 is the magic number for mid weights or so)...DIing his throws up gets you in his Dthrow set ups...DIing them away can get you screwed with Fthrow...by the ledge...a ground break sets up a Pillar Spike...also I'm pretty sure it is closer to 200% for the Uthrow KO...that thing really is affected by DI...oh and stat wise for what it is worth...I'd say Ness' throws do a better job at potential set ups than Sonic's...

No, it's 170%, not 200%.

Jman115 · Apr 13, 2009

Sonic and Ness are two of the most underrated characters in the game.
Sonic has seks.

JayBee · Apr 13, 2009

i think someone made a great point. it seems that people still dont understand fully that the tier list we want should dictate what characters are doing good/ok/bad, in tourneys. the problem is this idea that the list is a list of whos best and worst in the game. this shoudl have NOTHING to do with whos better than sonic, well maybe a little, but not nearly like this thread has been headed so far. I'm looking at the link clinton shows, and that's legit stuff. Sonic cannot do that in that way. But this doesn't mean Lucus does better in tourneys becuase of it either. i also want to point out that that vid shows techs from lucas that are more technical, yet, still hasn't been enough to garner respect from the tourney scene, while sonic gets it often on his running speed alone, the thing that makes most of his mindgames viable to only him, while characters can be compared in abilities to higher tier characters, sonic is an anamoly, and there is no character similar to him. IMO, C.Viper from SF4 is the closest example from another recent game of how a character that is weaker has a unique property that allows her to excel, IN TOURNAMENTS.

Lucus and ness could be better characters in a few areas than sonic. understood. but I'm not seeing it in the tourneys at all. no one is really talking about it, and it bothers me. because if a character that can be that technical still can't make a strong impact after a year, when a character that may have less ranged tools, cancels and the fastest running speed in the game can, then what does that really mean? What must we understand before we can accurately place him on a list on anything?

the answer: Brawl, as know, is a game of options. but sonic's speed gives the unprecedented pressure that distorts the opponents thought process into less options, and it usualy doesn't matter what character they are playing. It's because being "the fastest character in the game" is elementary and its strengths translate into any fighting game. Sonic can force a more favorable matchup on speed alone. I think it may take just as much or maybe even more skill to master lucus and get him to the level of tourney recognition that sonic has, but sonics spacing is easier to control and learn, and becomes harder to pin down than lucus. i guess what i want to say is that lucus is much easier in the tourneys to pin down and limit options, even if we know he has more than sonic in the end.

I also feel that people put too much faith in projectiles. for example, Lucus has two projectiles that have to be set up for spacing or punishment will follow hard. At the same time, only characters like sonic, meta, and a few others make this weakness more obvious, because of thier rushing ability, and characters like Falco make this strength nearly obsolete. Sonic's spacing with the run and cancels IMO is easier to accomplish technically and it seems that its easier in brawl to deal with projectiles like lucus's than something that "simple" from sonic.

I also think that Sonic on the tournament tier list would be higher than the mother kids, is because it seems to me that even though his name preceeds him, he has gotten more scrutiny than nearly every character in the game, because of who he was as an icon. This made his development even quicker, and that may be the most important diference between Lucus ans sonic to date in competetive brawl. if anything, he would be higher just because of this: more players of said character understand the full extent of his abilites longer because they got it out before most of his low tier bretheren. that, and he is the Best in the game at something, and on natural ability alone, oyu can't take that away really.

ROOOOY! · Apr 13, 2009

_clinton said:
PK Fire's main use is punishing with both Ness and Lucas like I said already...they both have different uses for them that lets you throw them out pretty well...Lucas can travel to the top of FD...or across 3/4th of it in less than a second...Ness' PK Flash main use is to make someone screw up and make a mistake when recovering...hell they pretty much have a large number of uses overall

They do have a lot of uses, yes, I never said they didn't. People throw around the word 'mindgame' far too much nowadays that it's lost all meaning. Using PK Flash as an example, using it to throw someone off recovering isn't a mindgame, that's just edgeguarding plain and simple. It's a slow moving projectile, it has no inherent properties that make it a good tool for mindgames.

Actually I'm pretty sure the idea with the tier list factors in many things...not just tournament results...besides the way that list was formed was kind of a neat thing to look at in general as well...I mean they were really careful with how they made it you know >_>

Actually I have remembered how the list was made. The quote that I used above was very misleading as to how the list was made and what it's meant to show. This is because the characters were marked on things like ease in killing and survivability; which doesn't at all show how characters are doing in tournaments, which according to the quote on the official tier list is what it's meant to do. In an ideal world yeah, the best characters will do the best in tournaments, and the worst characters will do the worst. Sonic as an example does not fit this trend, as he is not that good a character, but consistantly does better than more than half the cast at tournaments.

I had heard that match-ups and tournament results factored a tiny bit into it. I don't know how, considering the 'points' system was just an average of voting, unless they had their own '1-15 tournament success' criteria.

Fun fact...I don't give a **** about the tier list...

Fun fact...none of this was directed at you...

Lucas doesn't really have range problems IMO...like Ness, Lucas has plenty of moves with good hit boxes...Lucas' ftilt is great...6 frames of start up time, with IASA frames, and more range than G&W's Dtilt...

I wasn't really clear in what I meant. He doesn't have many viable long range attacks. Ftilt and dair are good long range attacks, just the rest of them have flaws, often in the form of cooldown lag (see u+dsmash)

This is why Sonic should have talked about characters that are close to him 1st...C. Falcon, Pikachu, Squirtle, Fox, Diddy, and Zamus for example are all characters that have more in common with Sonic than Ness, Lucas, or Samus do...I mean the fact that they all use their speed in some way to screw with people is one thing...

I mean really...the point of this thread is just off as well IMO...it should be taking characters that Sonic has some things in common with and then trying to convince the reader on why you should pick Sonic...not *****ing about tier lists because of the TCs view (just saying...I'm 90% certain that Ness was 2nd in line to be talked about in this thread for just one real reason)

Agreed with this.

Chis · Apr 13, 2009

_clinton said:
I mean really...the point of this thread is just off as well IMO...it should be taking characters that Sonic has some things in common with and then trying to convince the reader on why you should pick Sonic...not *****ing about tier lists because of the TCs view (just saying...I'm 90% certain that Ness was 2nd in line to be talked about in this thread for just one real reason)

You have no idea on why I made his thread. I suggest you go to the tier list thread and search 'sonic'. Did you read the OP?

_clinton · Apr 13, 2009

Chis said:
Almost everyone's down smash punishes rolls so....everyone can punish, and Sonic's down smash punishes spot dodges as well. I'm saying how constantly and effectively you can punish when your 'mind game' works. Can you show me some good examples of Ness' and Lucas' "mind games"? I would like to get a better idea.

Not everyone has smashes like Ness and Lucas...can Sonic hold out a hitbox (Ness)? Do any of Sonic's smashes reflect things (Both)? Do any of Sonic's smashes hit in the same area 3 times (Lucas)?

Oh and as far as PK Thunder mind games go...really...just look up a highlight video or something like that...or look at that thread someone else posted that is trying to talk about how you can use Ness' PKT...

Chis said:
No, it's 170%, not 200%.

Training mode Mario's death rate using Sonic's Uthrow on FD with no DI is 189%...Training mode does have a habit of making moves about .1% weaker or so (or whatever Colin's data for this game was...I'd have to recheck that)...so it would be 179% or so w/o DI in a normal match...DI effects Sonic's Uthrow KO as much as Lucas' Dthrow does...I've done the numbers on Lucas' DThrow KO to know how much it affects the blow...the number for Sonic is closer to 200% than it is 170%...

JayBee said:
i think someone made a great point. it seems that people still dont understand fully that the tier list we want should dictate what characters are doing good/ok/bad, in tourneys.

Then that would solved just by looking at a tournament placing thread...

JayBee said:
Lucus and ness could be better characters in a few areas than sonic. understood. but I'm not seeing it in the tourneys at all. no one is really talking about it, and it bothers me. because if a character that can be that technical still can't make a strong impact after a year, when a character that may have less ranged tools, cancels and the fastest running speed in the game can, then what does that really mean? What must we understand before we can accurately place him on a list on anything?

Again...Ness and Lucas are down because of grab release issues which are overblown by far still IMO...before that showed up...they were seen as doing pretty well in the meta game...one 3 minute video that had a Marth pummeling Ness to death pretty much killed their fan base for any competitive spark...

JayBee said:
the answer: Brawl, as know, is a game of options. but sonic's speed gives the unprecedented pressure that distorts the opponents thought process into less options, and it usualy doesn't matter what character they are playing. It's because being "the fastest character in the game" is elementary and its strengths translate into any fighting game. Sonic can force a more favorable matchup on speed alone. I think it may take just as much or maybe even more skill to master lucus and get him to the level of tourney recognition that sonic has, but sonics spacing is easier to control and learn, and becomes harder to pin down than lucus.

1st off...pinning down Lucas and Ness is hard...for one thing because they have mobility on their side...2nd off their speed is overall not bad as well...

I mean god...do you think a Tink doing this would screw Ness as much as it screwed with Ganondorf?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-1M0ggQzdM

Granted it wouldn't really screw Sonic either that much...but it is for different reasons (PK Jump or in Lucas' case the fact that his stick is an actually good reflector as well would help...plus his PK Fire does work as an annoyer)...

JayBee said:
I also feel that people put too much faith in projectiles. for example, Lucus has two projectiles that have to be set up for spacing or punishment will follow hard. At the same time, only characters like sonic, meta, and a few others make this weakness more obvious, because of thier rushing ability, and characters like Falco make this strength nearly obsolete.

I didn't really put any faith in the projectiles at all actually...all of Ness' and Lucas' projectiles all have very specific uses...I mean you are aware that the main focus of my talk has been with proving in the case with Ness have been in more than just projectiles...
A. His ground game isn't 1/5 material...more around 3/5...
B. His recovery isn't Link like either...again around 3/5...
C. Grab release stuff only adds a bit to the match up talk with most of the cast
D. Backing up claims about his air game being great...based off of 1. his mobility and 2. his airs attacks all pretty much chain into each other
E. His ledge guarding game is greater than any issues he may have with his recovery game...
F. He has his own mind games that are either based off projectiles or certain moves (fun fact...his air moves and ground moves kill pretty well) Oh and he forces a large % of the cast into playing differently as well compared to what they may be used to playing because of his tools he has...

And with Lucas...
A. His ground game is above average...deal with it
B. His air game is above average as well...deal with it
C. His recovery is great...deal with it
D. His grab release may have more issues than Ness' if he gets grabbed...but he is more equipped to avoid a grab than what Ness is...
E. Again he also has a good gimp game...
F. Again on the mind games and making many players have to play differently...

ROOOOY! said:
They do have a lot of uses, yes, I never said they didn't. People throw around the word 'mindgame' far too much nowadays that it's lost all meaning. Using PK Flash as an example, using it to throw someone off recovering isn't a mindgame, that's just edgeguarding plain and simple. It's a slow moving projectile, it has no inherent properties that make it a good tool for mindgames.

Ok then...explain to me what part of edgeguarding in Brawl isn't a mind game in some way? The fact is many recoveries where improved by a lot and that is part of the reason on why I like PK Flash much more in this game...

Of course I should point out that anyone who thinks they might be able to punish Ness when he is using it might get screwed in some way as well...

ROOOOY! said:
Fun fact...none of this was directed at you...

Fun fact...I just felt like *****ing...

ROOOOY! said:
I wasn't really clear in what I meant. He doesn't have many viable long range attacks. Ftilt and dair are good long range attacks, just the rest of them have flaws, often in the form of cooldown lag (see u+dsmash)

Dsmash has very low cooldown lag compared to Usmash...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211307

The advantage time for Dsmash on the 3rd hit for a block (which is the one that matters) is 26 frames...that isn't much...Usmash is the one that matters...68 frames is a lot...but again...Usmash as far as move use goes...may be only thrown out like once or twice in a 3 stock match in one set if that...and the idea behind it and using it right is to punish or if you miss you won't die or at least not be punished hard from a miss anyway...that is how moves like that work...another example is JP's rest...only that is the most extreme of examples of course...

ROOOOY! said:
Agreed with this.

Thank you...

Chis said:
You have no idea on why I made his thread. I suggest you go to the tier list thread and search 'sonic'. Did you read the OP?

The OP is talking about people complaining about why Sonic is low in the tier list...which btw I don't care about in case you didn't get that due to how it was made in the 1st place...anyway...looking at my post I guess I should have been more careful with what I said...because it wasn't your view I guess...oh well...sorry

My point still stands IMO...you should compare Sonic to others who have the same idea with their move pool...which is mind **** with speed...God...Ness and Lucas' mind games come from a different area all together...of course they are going to be different...

ToxiCrow · Apr 15, 2009

Chis said:
Sonic has a decent throw game. One of the best pummel rates in the game and has the strongest up throw percentage wise in the game. He has a decent tech game with down throw unless it's teched. QUOTE]

Lucas's throw game = back throw and dthrow. dthrow almost always leads to a Utilt at low percents.
now for pummel rate: lucas has the highest pummel rate in the game (9% per second)

ROOOOY! said:

Pretty much 3 words sums it up.

Sonic - can - approach.

Do I get an award now?

And hello again everybody.

?

Click to expand...

Lucas can approach with Dair, Nair and RAR Uair.

Jman115 said:

Sonic and Ness are two of the most underrated characters in the game.
Sonic has seks.

Click to expand...

you win.

Chis · Apr 16, 2009

Personal I've had enough with comparing individual moves, I rather talk about the character as a whole and how they fair in the competitive environment. I think a few people worded this better them me. Anyways, move on to Lucas.

ShadowLink84 · Apr 19, 2009

_clinton said:
My point still stands IMO...you should compare Sonic to others who have the same idea with their move pool...which is mind **** with speed...God...Ness and Lucas' mind games come from a different area all together...of course they are going to be different...

Yhe purpose of the thread is how Sonic's potential in tournament settings is greater than others around him.

Making comparisons between himself and those of similar playstyle does not accomplish this because of the fact that it does not pertain to Sonics potential to those near him and show how Sonic is either a higher placing/tier from them.

Let alone that we cannot compare mindgames.
We compare options.

Why? Mindgames themselves are the result of player behavior.
When you say, my PK flash is a mindgame for edgeguarding. That is not accurate.

Its more like, I use PK Flash, and limit the options my opponent would have which could possibly lea to this there and that.

What can this character do in this situation?

Levitas · Apr 19, 2009

if you're trying to limit the opponents' options, use fast moves. That's one of the main reasons fox is good in melee.

PK flash is really really bad in brawl, as in worse than it was in melee.

Sonic is better than lucas unless you're playing against bad people. Most people are bad and don't realize it. Including a LOT of people on smashboards character discussions.

ShadowLink84 · Apr 19, 2009

^^^
This.
Put it in a better way than I could put it.

*JuriHan* · Apr 19, 2009

Chis said:
I hear a lot about how Sonic was placed so low in January's tier list. Since you want him to rise Sonic mains, you need to explain why he's better then certain characters Such as tourney results and match ups. I'll slow work my way up starting from Samus. In turn it'll hopefully improve some understanding of that character and clear away some miss conceptions. Maybe the fake SBR will look at this? If you main that character, you're welcome to join.

Edit: Good stuff on the Samus discussion guys :D, next up this the under rated Ness? Is Sonic better then Ness? Discuss.

Edit2: Thanks Ness' ( >_>; ), I apologies if we came of over aggressive some how... Yeah, Lucas next. Discuss.

You can also discuss whether Sonic will rise in June, or if his metagame has improved.

Sonic should be top tier because he has blast processing. Also Genesis does what Nintendon't.

JayBee · Apr 19, 2009

get out.

btw, is the lucus discussion done or close to yet? what has everyone agreed to overall concerning lucus and sonic?

ShadowLink84 · Apr 19, 2009

SniperNightOwlFromYoutube said:
Sonic should be top tier because he has blast processing. Also Genesis does what Nintendon't.

Blast Processing was actually not what it seemed. It was the physics engine that they used at the time.

Anyways, I would say Sonic is better only because unlike Lucas, he is a character who doesn't have as exploited weaknesses.
while Lucas certainly does better than sonic in some areas, his own weaknesses hold him back more so than they do for Sonic.

And I do agree the grab exploit is exaggerated.

Afro Boy2000 · Apr 19, 2009

Sonic is not better than Lucas.

Super_Sonic8677 · Apr 19, 2009

Afro Boy2000 said:
Sonic is not better than Lucas.

boxobair>your face

KirbyandSonicrock14 · Apr 19, 2009

I faceplam that everyone for got to mention that Sonic had something other don't have.
STEAK!!!!

Wel,, Yoshi does have his Green eggs and ham too, but STEAK is the best.

thecatinthehat · Apr 19, 2009

...

son, you dont even know the MEANING of steak.

ignore the fact that you started it.

^_^

da K.I.D. · Apr 20, 2009

back on topic please

_clinton · Apr 20, 2009

KirbyandSonicrock14 said:
I faceplam that everyone for got to mention that Sonic had something other don't have.
STEAK!!!!

Wel,, Yoshi does have his Green eggs and ham too, but STEAK is the best.

Ness' favorite food is steak

Chis · Apr 22, 2009

...

What SS8677 and Kid said. So how are high level Lucas' doing in tournys?

da K.I.D. · Apr 22, 2009

so far in my ramblings through ankokus list ive seen 3 lucass that have gotten point but have never gotten higher than 3rd, (there might have been one that got 2nd but he was deffo a MK secondary.) where as sonic has like 6-10 guys getting anywhere from 1st to 7th.

_clinton · Apr 22, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
so far in my ramblings through ankokus list ive seen 3 lucass that have gotten point but have never gotten higher than 3rd, (there might have been one that got 2nd but he was deffo a MK secondary.) where as sonic has like 6-10 guys getting anywhere from 1st to 7th.

Again I would like to bring up my point on character popularity and how it effects these things...

Chis · Apr 29, 2009

Well, I guess we'll revisit Lucas later, yes?

Mario next.

ShadowLink84 · Apr 29, 2009

_clinton said:
Again I would like to bring up my point on character popularity and how it effects these things...

When we compare the amount of play these characters see, we find that both Lucas and Sonic are not significantly different in terms of usage.

Stop using flawed arguments.

Neon Ness · Apr 29, 2009

Supa Marty-o...

I'm having a hard time with this one, to be honest.

A'ight, Sonic trumps Mario in range and, of course, speed. For range, moves like forward tilt, up air, and down tilt. More ranged attacks = more precision when it comes to spacing. Which is always a good thing. However, Mario's spacing on its own is still above average. He can also camp well with Fireballs... Sonic can't really camp. C-Can he...?

Mario's offstage game is slightly better. Not his recovery, but his ability to keep the pressure on while his enemy is recovering. Cape, Fireball, and FLUDD work wonders in a lot of situations. Especially against Ness... ;_; Sonic does have Spring gimping and HA walls, but I feel like the applications for those are fairly limited when stacked against Mario's options...

In the tournament setting, I don't see Mario doing any worse than Sonic as far as characters he'll face most often. In my opinion his worst matchup is Dedede (and that's just because the infinite makes it needlessly tough) which shouldn't be a big deal for people who live outside of Florida.

Apparently those who do play Mario play him well, but it seems like there are more Sonics getting top 8 for some reason.

But, eh. My Mario's rusty lately, so the actual

mains might need to correct me on a few things.

Tough call. I think they can do equally well, realistically speaking... Mario might be slightly better. Espy should have a showdown with Boss so we can see. :laugh:

da K.I.D. · Apr 29, 2009

Camalange and Malcolm have both beaten down on Boss's Mario.

but that doesnt have much of an effect on the point of this thread, other than the best mario out there is losing to a sonic that isnt really all that well known... (sorry cam)

Kinzer · Apr 29, 2009

It could also be that Boss is just too busy beasting with Weegee to do anything with Marty-O.

That, or Camal is more legit than you thought, KID.

But this is not a MU thread is it?

...If it hasn't already been said, Marty-O gets buttraped by D3, literally.

I also do not know which MU Marty-O does better than Sonic at, they both seem to have similar matchups against the ones that matter, with a couple of exceptions here and there maybe (but I can already tell you the difference isn't anymore drastic than 10 points at most).

Should I even explain who is more tourney presented/viable, even with D3's CG banned? We all know how much more ahead Sonic is at the moment.

Also Sega > Nintendo.

Camalange · Apr 29, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
Camalange and Malcolm have both beaten down on Boss's Mario.

but that doesnt have much of an effect on the point of this thread, other than the best mario out there is losing to a sonic that isnt really all that well known... (sorry cam)

It's all good bro, I'm workin' my way up.

As for Mario, (non-matchup wise), I feel he's better than Sonic. Mainly because he has great aerials, combo ability, and he's got nice kill moves. Dsmash is quick, Fsmash has great range, and did you ever notice how broken Mario's Usmash is? It hits from EVERYWHERE. It's insane...his head protects his entire body and has a good disjoint in FRONT of him too...it's almost like a second Fsmash but better.

JayBee · Apr 29, 2009

I think that if ever sonic would be considered better than mario, it would be because:

1: sonic has more better ranged moves to space with.
2: Sonic can probably punish better than mario

as for recovery, i think sonic is better, but i dont expect a good mario to be gimped any time soon either. I also think you have to take into consideration against the cast the ability for both to get in on opponents, since they are close tange fighters. Sonic can play at medium range because he is so fast, and mario can play out there a bit with the fireballs. also, do fireballs really bother the cast of brawl like sonic's closing speed can?

for the kill, Marios dsmash is more for punishment, so it wont be a kill move usually, fror them its Fsmash, upsmash. Sonic, its F smash (is it longer than marios?) D smash, and Bair. i may be off on this slightly.

questions we need to answer:
1: who does better in tourneys at this moment?
2: which characters has more disadvantaged matchups against the top/high tier characters on a matchup basis?
3: is there something in thier game/abilities that can be expoited consistantly, and how many of the characters can abuse that? (ex. ness GR situations, Wario's AR situations)

darkNES386 · Apr 30, 2009

I'm thinking now not against each other, but when facing off against the rest of the cast:

Mario's recovery options < Sonic's recovery options.
Mario has a projectile and reflector, Sonic IS doesn't have a projectile.
Mario is most effective in the air - Sonic is most effective on the ground.

Sonic is kicking mario's plunger on tournament rankings

Darknid · Apr 30, 2009

I wouldn't say Sonic is most effective on the ground, or that Mario is most effective in the air. Sonic is a very unique style, Mario is more basic. Mario's boxing game is better, his grab game is pretty good, wouldn't put it above Sonic's, but it definitely compliments his game. The range difference is barely noticeable. As far as spacing goes, I'd put Mario as the clear superior, because of his aerial agility and the speed of his bair/uair. Sonic's F tilt is a leaner and NOT a safe move, while Mario doesn't have much for spacing on the ground, but he doesn't really need it. Similar to diddy, link or guile from street fighter, his projectile extends his range as far as he pleases when he wishes to approach or defend.

So, just some basic categories.

Mobility: Sonic's is at the level of ridiculous, while Mario's is at the level of good. Sonic wins.

Recovery: Kinda depends, but I think everyone will tell you it's Sonic. Sonic's is easier for some to gimp, and there isn't as much danger in attempting to gimp him. At worst, you will be returning to the stage with him standing by the edge. With Mario, you never want to be in this position. Sonic wins this one, though.

Killing Power: Mario.

Damage Racking: I'd put it as a tie

Gimping: Mario.

As far as matchups go..I don't know. Mario has decent matchups with some of the highest tiers, such as Snake, Marth, DK, Wario, Falco etc. but falls prey to D3's infinite. Without the infinite, it's **** near even(keep in mind Mario can gimp D3, yes.), without the chaingrab it's a Mario advantage(lol). As for the MK matchup..Well, I don't know. I don't know Sonic's matchups. I can tell you it's called a 65-35 MK advantage, but that still needs to be explored even more. Mario is the one character who can actually threaten MK with a gimp.

It seems like Mario just has more **** going for him. Great, spammable projectile, great reflector, great gimping game, good agility, great combo game. Sonic has godly mobility, good combo game, good recovery.

Tournament rankings do not decide the better character.

Also, as for Sega vs Nintendo..yeah, we saw who won that one.

darkNES386 · Apr 30, 2009

I

Darknid said:
As far as spacing goes, I'd put Mario as the clear superior, because of his aerial agility and the speed of his bair/uair.

Spacing ability does not come from air mobility alone.

Darknid said:
Sonic's F tilt is a leaner and NOT a safe move

Up close Sonic's ftilt actually is two hits. If opponent is on the edge this will actually push them out of shield and then hit them.

Darknid said:
Mobility: Sonic's is at the level of ridiculous, while Mario's is at the level of good. Sonic wins.

Okay, so basically you are sort of agreeing with Sonic has more mobility (ground?) while Mario is better Aerial (first quote).

Darknid said:
Recovery: Kinda depends, but I think everyone will tell you it's Sonic. ~~Sonic's~~Mario? is easier for some to gimp, and there isn't as much danger in attempting to gimp him. At worst, you will be returning to the stage with him standing by the edge. With Mario......, you never want to be in this position. Sonic wins this one, though.

You've completely lost me. I read the first sentence and thought you were saying everyone agrees Sonic is better at recovery. You move on to say there isn't much danger in gimping sonic when Sonic's spring can sometimes hit player attempting to gimp him. Sonic has invincy frames on his up special (mario has them too I know). All of Sonic's specials are viable (yes even HA, very situational but still can add ridiculous clutch recoveries if necessary). He can mix in spin-shotting (the momentum boosted double jump), jump cancel out of both spin specials regularly AND attack after his up special.

If that's not enough....

The recovery thread (<---) clearly shows Sonic dominating a massive majority of the cast. A mod owns the thread sarcasm: So you know it's the truth /sarcasm

Darknid said:
Gimping: Mario.

As far as matchups go..I don't know. Mario has decent matchups with some of the highest tiers, such as Snake, Marth, DK, Wario, Falco etc. but falls prey to D3's infinite. Without the infinite, it's **** near even(keep in mind Mario can gimp D3, yes.), without the chaingrab it's a Mario advantage(lol). As for the MK matchup..Well, I don't know. I don't know Sonic's matchups. I can tell you it's called a 65-35 MK advantage, but that still needs to be explored even more. Mario is the one character who can actually threaten MK with a gimp.

It seems like Mario just has more **** going for him. Great, spammable projectile, great reflector, great gimping game, good agility, great combo game. Sonic has godly mobility, good combo game, good recovery.

Tournament rankings do not decide the better character.

Also, as for Sega vs Nintendo..yeah, we saw who won that one.

Let me first clarify that anything not quoted I mostly agree with.

So if Mario has the ability to threaten MK with a gimp... Sonic actually has the ability to avoid being gimped by MK and can escape many combos that most characters fall victim to against MK.

Personally, if I had to put money on who would win first against MK with the top marios and top Sonics playing I would not put all my chips on red.

Kinzer · Apr 30, 2009

If tourney results do not prove who is the better character (or is at least a major factor), then what is/does? I see little to no promise from Mario with the exception of Boss, whereas Sonic is in a whole class above some most of the low-mid tier characters with the exception of PT (D*** Reflex is representin'!).

Tell me, Mario has moreorless the same matchups against the top-tiers with the exception of D3, and yet why do I only see Sonic getting anywhere?

I also had no idea Sonic's FTilt was not a safe move, being that it's range/speed ratio is 3.5/5 stars compared to everybody else in the game, what does Mario have on the ground that acts similar? Fireballs are too laggy on start-up, and of his "GTFO!" moves such as DSmash have too much cooldown, his Jab is not much better off than Sonic's, and FTilt is only better at hitting opponents more higher up in the air. Perhaps Mario can take the skies and try to do something like Nair or Dair but still... Both have their range problems, Mario just has a brickwall and acceleration in the air.

Browny · Apr 30, 2009

MK's shuttle loop alone puts the matchup vs mario heavily in his favour before we even look into his dtilt, grabs, dsmash, nair... Sonic isnt going to be dying at like 60% anywhere near as often as mario will

Although i think the same for this case as i do for every character discussed...

I think Mario is a better character, but people prove me wrong again and again and again. Tourney results DONT lie. theorycrafting on mario's gimp and combo ability does, however

Afro Boy2000 · Apr 30, 2009

Sonic is NOT better than Mario

Tenki · Apr 30, 2009

It's weird because Mario has so much going for him- projectile and shieldpressure, reflector, U-tilt juggles, some nice near-lagless aerials/juggle moves and priority with some moves - but like DJ said, he can really get ***** offstage and has some really dangerous matchups.

@__@;

Chis · Apr 30, 2009

Afro Boy2000 said:
Sonic is NOT better than Mario

Why?

Untill you answer this question, your posts are moot.

RenegadeRaven · Apr 30, 2009

Sonic's ground speed and spring make an incredible difference since with those, it makes him that much harder to pressure.

Mario can be more easily gimped and dies a hell of a lot earlier than Sonic in most of his match ups. Simply chase Mario offstage, bait the cape, then gimp.

Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

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