Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[JayBee]

can we get more mario mains in here please?


Lol at Red vs Blue

 

[darkNES386]

It's weird because Mario has so much going for him- projectile and shieldpressure, reflector, U-tilt juggles, some nice near-lagless aerials/juggle moves and priority with some moves - but like DJ said, he can really get ***** offstage and has some really dangerous matchups.

@__@;

Mario is always the "can do a little bit of everything guy."

His parents must have been like .... "Mario you have to choose between soccer, baseball, golf, tennis, karate, kart racing, saving princesses, cleaning up islands and building galaxies. If don't pick one thing you'll only be okay at everything and never become truly amazing at one thing."

Mario's response: okee dokee

....and he goes off and still does everything... hence he'll never be amazing at smash bros.

All Sonic cares about is being fast... which may be one dimensional... but it pays off in fighting games usually.

 

[Darknid]

I
Spacing ability does not come from air mobility alone.

It helps, a lot. It easily puts Mario above Sonic in terms of spacing.

Up close Sonic's ftilt actually is two hits. If opponent is on the edge this will actually push them out of shield and then hit them.

If you're using the F tilt when you're hugging your opponent, its range doesn't really matter, does it?

Okay, so basically you are sort of agreeing with Sonic has more mobility (ground?) while Mario is better Aerial (first quote).

Well, Sonic can get where he wants to be, ground or air, a lot faster. However, in terms of aerial handling and speed which is more important for spacing, Mario wins.

You've completely lost me. I read the first sentence and thought you were saying everyone agrees Sonic is better at recovery. You move on to say there isn't much danger in gimping sonic when Sonic's spring can sometimes hit player attempting to gimp him. Sonic has invincy frames on his up special (mario has them too I know). All of Sonic's specials are viable (yes even HA, very situational but still can add ridiculous clutch recoveries if necessary). He can mix in spin-shotting (the momentum boosted double jump), jump cancel out of both spin specials regularly AND attack after his up special.

Who is attempting to gimp sonic from underneath? ZSS? I've also spiked Sonic out of his up special before, I know of the invincibility frames but I've never actually seen them. There's also the fact that none of Sonic's aerials will gimp you when he's recovering. Sonic has the better recovery, as in he probably has a better success rate and he has more options, but it isn't dangerous at all to go after him.

If that's not enough....

The recovery thread (<---) clearly shows Sonic dominating a massive majority of the cast. A mod owns the thread sarcasm: So you know it's the truth /sarcasm

lol. I'm speaking from experience.

Let me first clarify that anything not quoted I mostly agree with.

So if Mario has the ability to threaten MK with a gimp... Sonic actually has the ability to avoid being gimped by MK and can escape many combos that most characters fall victim to against MK.

Personally, if I had to put money on who would win first against MK with the top marios and top Sonics playing I would not put all my chips on red.

Mario isn't easy to gimp, though, but most MKs are never threatened with a gimp, and Mario changes that, which is a big factor in the matchup. He's also got fireballs, and better spacing which you need against MK. It's probably a **** matchup for both, but as far as matchups go vs high tiers, if Sonic can beat a 55-45 with Snake, and decent matchups vs all of the others I mentioned, then ****. good job. Mario can escape combos as well with his quick aerials.


Also, Mario has an identity now. He robs you of your stock at low percents better than anyone else.

 

[Kinzer]

Where's my Wot?!

Of course Ftilt isn't used to damage (a majority of the time) It's used to space.

 

[Chis]

If you're using the F tilt when you're hugging your opponent, its range doesn't really matter, does it?

Yes, because you can punish well spaced/long ranged moves better.

Well, Sonic can get where he wants to be, ground or air, a lot faster. However, in terms of aerial handling and speed which is more important for spacing, Mario wins.

Speed? Anyways, could you be more specific?

Who is attempting to gimp sonic from underneath? ZSS? I've also spiked Sonic out of his up special before,

That's more of a player dependent thing. That doesn't happen in high levels.

I know of the invincibility frames but I've never actually seen them. There's also the fact that none of Sonic's aerials will gimp you when he's recovering. Sonic has the better recovery, as in he probably has a better success rate and he has more options, but it isn't dangerous at all to go after him.

Not just his spring. Sonic has the 5th highest areal movement in the game and a good second jump. A lot of the time you can DI to the stage. Also, Sonic has multiple ways of recovering back onto the stage. Spinshot and ASC are the most noticeable ones. Spin shot launches Sonic quickly through the air and ASC held forward makes Sonic move through the air at a 45 degree angle. Homing attack, meh. Also his Dair makes it hard to keep track of him while he's recovering.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I disagree with Mario having better spacing than Sonic JUST because of aerial speed. Spacing on the ground is just as good. Sonic can dash in and out of attack range faster than Mario can weave in and out in the air.

All thanks to pivot, his options aren't limited either.

 

[Sosuke]

lol
At first glance, this thread makes you guys seem like jerks.

 

[Chis]

So who do you think is better and why sasukebowser?

 

[_clinton]

Tell me, Mario has moreorless the same matchups against the top-tiers with the exception of D3, and yet why do I only see Sonic getting anywhere?

Let's see...

Mario is always the "can do a little bit of everything guy."

His parents must have been like .... "Mario you have to choose between soccer, baseball, golf, tennis, karate, kart racing, saving princesses, cleaning up islands and building galaxies. If don't pick one thing you'll only be okay at everything and never become truly amazing at one thing."

Mario's response: okee dokee

....and he goes off and still does everything... hence he'll never be amazing at smash bros.

All Sonic cares about is being fast... which may be one dimensional... but it pays off in fighting games usually.

I feel this says it...

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Why?

Untill you answer this question, your posts are moot.

Iight, i'll tell you why I think that. Mario is generally faster (in the air), he can combo better and he can kill better. He also doesn't get owned be random d-tilts unlike Sonic. The only things sonic seem too have going for him are ground speed and hard to gimp/good recovery.


Mario>Sonic as a brawl character.

 

[Maniclysane]

Sonic is NOT better than Mario

D3 infinite. ggs.

 

[Kinzer]

lol
At first glance, this thread makes you guys seem like jerks.

We are jerks.

Let's see...

I feel this says it...

So are you acknowledging that Mario is not seeing the light of competitive play and will almost not likely see it sometime soon whereas Sonic for his standards are prospering?

Iight, i'll tell you why I think that. Mario is generally faster (in the air), he can combo better and he can kill better. The only things sonic seem too have going for him are ground speed and hard to gimp/good recovery.


Mario<Sonic as a brawl character.

...He just has better acceleration, Sonic is the 6th fastest character in the air... I'll admit Sonic' acceleration makes his aerial game somewhat bleh, but don't get the two confused.

Also assuming the DTilt thing was a joke (if it isn't, I lol at you), Sonic does not get ***** by D3 and has similar matchup ratios, and Sonic has his own ups too. Even though they are similar characters I just give it to Sonic for the fact that he is a more stand-alone character than Mario is regardless of whether or not D3's CG is banned, and that is what I believe the tier list is suppose to represent... Let's see there was something else I was gonna say, what was it...

Not just Fixed but...

No I think that's it, If I remember I'll be sure to post it or something.

 

[darkNES386]

It helps, a lot. It easily puts Mario above Sonic in terms of spacing.

General aerial movement IS a very prime source of spacing and Mario along with easily half the cast kicks Sonic's butt at this. At some point though you do have to land and that's when Sonic's ground speed shows his true spacing ability. Sonic does have an absurd hyphen smash which can become even more absurd if the DAC version of his usmash is used. Picture Sonic covering just ever slightly under half of FD with a sliding usmash that has invincy frames right as it's released. His uber delayed dash attack can make this move even more unpredictable.

If you're using the F tilt when you're hugging your opponent, its range doesn't really matter, does it?

You missed my point completely. I never boasted about his ftilt range. It's actually not too shabby, but I'm saying it has two hits which executed closer to opponent:
1) Opponent releases shield early and gets hit by second part
2) Opponent is shielding on side of stage and first hit pushes opponent off edge and second hit is a guarantee.

Well, Sonic can get where he wants to be, ground or air, a lot faster. However, in terms of aerial handling and speed which is more important for spacing, Mario wins.

Just remember sonic can cover FD in under 1 second. Especially against human opponents... covering distances shorter than FD forces Sonic's opponent into some sort of reaction. When you know Sonic is coming at you that fast and you're floating in the air you have to commit to either a second jump, aerial or air dodge. If you used your second jump now you have less options and the Sonic has to only guess where you are landing.

How easy is it for Mario to approach a marth who spaces fairs effectively?

Who is attempting to gimp sonic from underneath? ZSS? I've also spiked Sonic out of his up special before, I know of the invincibility frames but I've never actually seen them. There's also the fact that none of Sonic's aerials will gimp you when he's recovering. Sonic has the better recovery, as in he probably has a better success rate and he has more options, but it isn't dangerous at all to go after him.

lol. I'm speaking from experience.

Also, Mario has an identity now. He robs you of your stock at low percents better than anyone else.

1)I take you've never found yourself being eating a footstool or spring after attempting to gimp a Sonic? No you don't start under Sonic to gimp him, but when two aerials hit each other both characters tend to be knocked upwards... more than you may think, Sonic finds himself above his opponent in this case and either a footstool or spring is bound to happen. This doesn't mean Sonic's opponent instantly dies. Sometimes all it takes is for Sonic to find himself grabbing the edge just before his opponent.

2)It sounds like the Sonic(s) you've faced believe recovering with spin-shot INTO your fair spike is Sonic's best option. This time last year Sonic mains were discovering just how extremely predictable and punishable the spin-shot recovery is.

3)I'm disgusted ANY time my Sonic dies off the bottom of the screen. I still think you don't realize how versatile Sonic's recovery options are. If the Sonic players knows what to expect he honestly can't be gimped. I can say without a doubt that Sonic players that can't recover effectively do not have much success.

One of his strongest points is that he's actually a middle weight: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374
He shares virtually the same weight as Mario. Something many players underestimate about Sonic.

I welcome any Mario to jump out and try and fair me just as much as I welcome diddy kongs who try to spike and then use their side special to get back.

 

[Darknid]

Yes, because you can punish well spaced/long ranged moves better.

Uh..If you're just gonna use the move when you're hugging your opponent, you might as well be bragging about the spacing aspects of luigi's up B. It's irrelevant. Sonic's spacing is **** to begin with and the only reason he isn't demolished by characters with great range is his speed and mobility. This does not equate to good spacing. Mario's agility in the air does. He is a better spacing character, period.

Speed? Anyways, could you be more specific?

Well, I call it agility, but the several factors that make up a character's handling in the air. Mostly acceleration, and Sonic's is ****.

That's more of a player dependent thing. That doesn't happen in high levels.

Sonics still fall prey to the WOP. every one of his many options falls prey to a decent WOP.

Not just his spring. Sonic has the 5th highest areal movement in the game and a good second jump. A lot of the time you can DI to the stage. Also, Sonic has multiple ways of recovering back onto the stage. Spinshot and ASC are the most noticeable ones. Spin shot launches Sonic quickly through the air and ASC held forward makes Sonic move through the air at a 45 degree angle. Homing attack, meh. Also his Dair makes it hard to keep track of him while he's recovering.

A good second jump? How did you come to that conclusion? I'd say it's average at best. DI to the stage? His acceleration is crap. Just to put this into perspective, if Sonic falls into the water on the left platform gap in jungle japes, he cannot make it back to the stage by jumping and using up B. The best he can hope for is a DI to the ledge, and that's if he got out of the water the moment he was able to WITHOUT mashing jump because that would cut his initial jump out of the water short. His dair? No character gets gimped if they are that high to begin with. Unless you mean dair to spring, in which case, have fun getting edgehogged/stage spiked. Now, he may have various options in terms of recovering, but none of them make it dangerous to attempt a gimp. Mario, on the other hand, will screw you over if the tables are turned and he makes it back before you do.

 

[darkNES386]

Uh..If you're just gonna use the move when you're hugging your opponent, you might as well be bragging about the spacing aspects of luigi's up B. It's irrelevant. Sonic's spacing is **** to begin with and the only reason he isn't demolished by characters with great range is his speed and mobility. This does not equate to good spacing. Mario's agility in the air does. He is a better spacing character, period.

Then accept that what Sonic IS good at apparently pays off enough.

Just to put this into perspective, if Sonic falls into the water on the left platform gap in jungle japes, he cannot make it back to the stage by jumping and using up B.

He can... it's called using an aerial at the peak of his spring to increase his momentum thus increasing his horizontal recovery.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

It's irrelevant. Sonic's spacing is **** to begin with and the only reason he isn't demolished by characters with great range is his speed and mobility. This does not equate to good spacing.

That doesn't make any sense. You say Sonic's spacing is crap, then you say he has enough speed and mobility to stay out of range?? >_>

Dash out > pivot > dash in > punish

Of course this isn't entirely mastered but I'm more than sure one's mobility, whether ground or air, equates to good spacing.

---

And about the jungle japes thing. I've made it back that far numerous times. Why I decided to even counter pick that stage against Peach? I don't know, but it's totally legit and possible.

 

[Kinzer]

I lol at how this guy is strawmanning me and DNES.

 

[Darknid]

General aerial movement IS a very prime source of spacing and Mario along with easily half the cast kicks Sonic's butt at this. At some point though you do have to land and that's when Sonic's ground speed shows his true spacing ability. Sonic does have an absurd hyphen smash which can become even more absurd if the DAC version of his usmash is used. Picture Sonic covering just ever slightly under half of FD with a sliding usmash that has invincy frames right as it's released. His uber delayed dash attack can make this move even more unpredictable.

Sonic's ground speed, that is to say the speed of his dash, does not make him a good spacing character. Sure, Mario has to land, but he can immediately jump and throw out another attack the moment he does. Mario can spend 95% of his time spacing bairs vs most chars. His hyphen smash isn't much of a spacing tool. It's a rocket attack. You might as well say his spindash is a good spacing tool because it goes far.

You missed my point completely. I never boasted about his ftilt range. It's actually not too shabby, but I'm saying it has two hits which executed closer to opponent:
1) Opponent releases shield early and gets hit by second part
2) Opponent is shielding on side of stage and first hit pushes opponent off edge and second hit is a guarantee.

Again, none of this has anything to do with spacing. There's also the 3rd option, where your opponent shields both hits and grabs you.

Just remember sonic can cover FD in under 1 second. Especially against human opponents... covering distances shorter than FD forces Sonic's opponent into some sort of reaction. When you know Sonic is coming at you that fast and you're floating in the air you have to commit to either a second jump, aerial or air dodge. If you used your second jump now you have less options and the Sonic has to only guess where you are landing.

This assumes your opponent has no: Traps, spammable attacks, disjointed attacks, continuous jabs, continuous grabbing attacks, rocketing attacks that beat yours, projectiles or anything that would consistently stop you. Most characters have something to deal with this. My main doesn't, though, and that's the only problem I ever have against Sonic.

How easy is it for Mario to approach a marth who spaces fairs effectively?

Well, he could toss fireballs along the ground until one hits, forcing Marth to come near him to attack him, then dash+shield into comfort zone. He could also rar a bair which can be spaced just as well as Marth's fair. He could also FLUDD Marth's blade, if I recall correctly FLUDDing the tip of Marth's attack gives him a ton of hitlag. Mario ends his fludd animation before Marth's hitlag ends, allowing him to close the gap. He has several options for this. You could also cape him, cape is a very long range disjointed move that beats everything as long as it hits his opponent's body. Pretty sure it will never clank. The easiest option would be coating the ground with fireballs, limiting his landing options.

1)I take you've never found yourself being eating a footstool or spring after attempting to gimp a Sonic? No you don't start under Sonic to gimp him, but when two aerials hit each other both characters tend to be knocked upwards... more than you may think, Sonic finds himself above his opponent in this case and either a footstool or spring is bound to happen. This doesn't mean Sonic's opponent instantly dies. Sometimes all it takes is for Sonic to find himself grabbing the edge just before his opponent.

2)It sounds like the Sonic(s) you've faced believe recovering with spin-shot INTO your fair spike is Sonic's best option. This time last year Sonic mains were discovering just how extremely predictable and punishable the spin-shot recovery is.

3)I'm disgusted ANY time my Sonic dies off the bottom of the screen. I still think you don't realize how versatile Sonic's recovery options are. If the Sonic players knows what to expect he honestly can't be gimped. I can say without a doubt that Sonic players that can't recover effectively do not have much success.

One of his strongest points is that he's actually a middle weight: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374
He shares virtually the same weight as Mario. Something many players underestimate about Sonic.

I welcome any Mario to jump out and try and fair me just as much as I welcome diddy kongs who try to spike and then use their side special to get back.

That's never happened to me because I don't allow it to happen. We are not talking about the Mario vs Sonic matchup, and mainly vs Sonic you want to WOP him to force him into his up B then gimp that. I've also never found any trouble killing Sonic, as far as his weight goes, As DK I kill him at 70 and as Mario, probably 80 with F smash. His weight is no plus.

 

[Matador]

Mario and Sonic are pretty close potential-wise. I play Sonic as a second because I'm truly a Sonic fanboy, and play a really good one/team with a really good one for tourneys.

The reason I'd probably say Mario is better is that I'm terribly biased Mario can kill better and can adapt to his bad matchups a little better.

Before we fly off the handle, let me explain myself. Mario and Sonic, much to my enjoyment, share an enormous stutterstep Fsmash. Mario's has a little more range, his disjointed, and kills earlier on the sweetspot. Sonic can set his up much better than Mario and with therefore be landing is much more often, making it more reliable once the opponent is in kill percentage. Someone also already touched on his Usmash. This attack is ALSO disjointed and will clash with attacks like Marth's Fsmash and DK's Dsmash and will hit through the bottom of MK's nado. This doubles as a KO move that will kill a little higher than your Fsmash does and a combo starter on heavy characters that don't die from it until outrageously high. IIRC, Sonic's KO moves are Bair, Fsmash, and Dsmash and Uair on occasion. While he has more options, Mario's Fsmash kills with the best of them, sometimes taking out characters like MK under 100%. I feel this is something Sonic could really use.

Mario and Sonic, in actuality, both combo very well. They both have great gimp potential. They both have pretty good spacing. I'd probably give Mario the nod in spacing since he can safely pressure shields sort of like Wario without worrying about punishment. He also has a cape that shield pokes and is safe on shield as well as fireballs when trying to keep an opponent from walking into his "safety zone" if he needs to play defensively. Sonic can be great on shields as well but, from my experience, he can't lay on thick shield pressure as well as Mario can with attacks like his Dair and remain relatively safe.

Sonic outranges Mario on quite a few moves and can approach very well in the hands of a pro. His speed and mindgames (yeah, I said it) allow him to get in and punish forced attacks extremely well. I really don't understand why people say his priority is bad...I've only found that his SideB and DownB are low priority, so I won't touch on it.

Most importantly, Mario can change his playstyle pretty well to fit whatever matchup. If he's against DK, he can pressure heavily with fireballs, **** with combos and gimps and ultimately land him a pretty even matchup. Against D3 who ***** him with grabs, he can play defensively with fireballs, Fludd and cape to kill camping. Mario has severely underrated OOS options (fastest upB OOS with invincibility, and you can quote me on that), Usmash and aerials. He also will end up killing him earlier than Sonic will because of his Fsmash, again, having more power. If there's a character like Wario that he needs to outspace the entire match, Bair, fireballs, and cape help out with that. He also has a few high priority moves like cape, Usmash and Fsmash if he needs to deal with his lack of disjointed attacks. Hell, he even has a meteor for character like Jiggs that lack a meteor cancel and cape vs the many characters like ROB and TL that like to camp. Sonic generally can't camp as well and doesn't have as good of a defensive game with less efficient OOS options. Offensively, he can be even more dangerous than Mario, but he takes a back seat everywhere else.

Obviously Sonic spanks all of low tier and most of middle tier in tourney results. Good **** people. Mario doesn't have many people representing him nowadays, so we've really slowed.

/johns

Anyways, that's what I think. Mario may be a tiny step in front of Sonic in terms of who's actually the better character. Both are extremely underrated (Sonic definitely taking the cake) and have a ton of potential.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Sonic's ground speed, that is to say the speed of his dash, does not make him a good spacing character. Sure, Mario has to land, but he can immediately jump and throw out another attack the moment he does. Mario can spend 95% of his time spacing bairs vs most chars. His hyphen smash isn't much of a spacing tool. It's a rocket attack. You might as well say his spindash is a good spacing tool because it goes far.

Oh yes it does make him good at spacing. Just as you said before, Sonic doesn't get rocked by character with long range because of his speed on the ground. Who's to say he can't exit the range, then re-enter when they're in landing lag?

This assumes your opponent has no: Traps, spammable attacks, disjointed attacks, continuous jabs, continuous grabbing attacks, rocketing attacks that beat yours, projectiles or anything that would consistently stop you. Most characters have something to deal with this. My main doesn't, though, and that's the only problem I ever have against Sonic.

Same goes for Mario when he's spacing bairs 95% of the time, I guess. And no, cape isn't the ultimate counter, not saying you said it was, all that stuff you stated above are STILL going to stop a legitimate approach from Mario AND pretty much everyone else on the roster.

Well, he could toss fireballs along the ground until one hits, forcing Marth to come near him to attack him, then dash+shield into comfort zone. He could also rar a bair which can be spaced just as well as Marth's fair. He could also FLUDD Marth's blade, if I recall correctly FLUDDing the tip of Marth's attack gives him a ton of hitlag. Mario ends his fludd animation before Marth's hitlag ends, allowing him to close the gap. He has several options for this. You could also cape him, cape is a very long range disjointed move that beats everything as long as it hits his opponent's body. Pretty sure it will never clank. The easiest option would be coating the ground with fireballs, limiting his landing options.

Well, using FLUDD would be pretty useless, since you won't need to close the gap, I'm pretty sure Marth will be in your face spacing fairs, not across the level. So yeah, fireballs... only best option.

I probably played Marth once xD but from what the others say, I believe he can fair Marth before Marth pulls out a second fair in his one short hop.
All thanks to that wonderful ground speed of ours we can just barely stay out of range and then dash in to fair before he can pull out the second retreating fair! Ossim! =D

That's never happened to me because I don't allow it to happen. We are not talking about the Mario vs Sonic matchup, and mainly vs Sonic you want to WOP him to force him into his up B then gimp that. I've also never found any trouble killing Sonic, as far as his weight goes, As DK I kill him at 70 and as Mario, probably 80 with F smash. His weight is no plus.

LOLwut? Don't you know how high Sonic's Up B goes? Noooooo way are you gimping him after he uses it. D=
Unless you hit him out of hit, but if you're WOPing him then you'll hit him during his invincy frames which are at the beginning of the spring. Unless you can suddenly get higher than him before the spring? I dunno.

---

All in all, Mario needs some serious representatives. Cause he seems like he has WAY more potential than what is showing.

 

[Chis]

Uh..If you're just gonna use the move when you're hugging your opponent, you might as well be bragging about the spacing aspects of luigi's up B. It's irrelevant. Sonic's spacing is **** to begin with and the only reason he isn't demolished by characters with great range is his speed and mobility. This does not equate to good spacing. Mario's agility in the air does. He is a better spacing character, period.

Isn't that the same thing? Unless Mario has sigifacantly more range or something, that's the same thing but in the air.

Sonics still fall prey to the WOP. every one of his many options falls prey to a decent WOP.

At high level?

A good second jump? How did you come to that conclusion?

This is a fact. It's good lol

I'd say it's average at best. DI to the stage? His acceleration is crap.

5th best in the game. Another fact. Also spin shot = goes really fast.

Just to put this into perspective, if Sonic falls into the water on the left platform gap in jungle japes, he cannot make it back to the stage by jumping and using up B. The best he can hope for is a DI to the ledge, and that's if he got out of the water the moment he was able to WITHOUT mashing jump because that would cut his initial jump out of the water short. His dair? No character gets gimped if they are that high to begin with. Unless you mean dair to spring, in which case, have fun getting edgehogged/stage spiked. Now, he may have various options in terms of recovering, but none of them make it dangerous to attempt a gimp. Mario, on the other hand, will screw you over if the tables are turned and he makes it back before you do.

Sonic has faster and safer ways to getting back to the stage like I just explain.... They're are used in higher levels a lot. Sonic's recover is safer, period.

You take about weaving like it can't be on the ground. Isn't the point of it to hit with the tip of the attack while keeping youself safe? Well Mario doesn't have a sword so...

Also getting '*****' in a macth up vs a highly used tourny charater would surely make it hard to win some tournys.

 

[Kinzer]

...Since nobody else has commented on Matador...

First - Good s*** for the most part.

Second - While Mario may have the freedom of all-aroundness, Sonic can make his MU's less excruciating than they appear as well, all thanks to his fakeouts/cancels/ability to keep his options open for the most part and limit the opponent in some kind of way. It's a fair trade-off when the likes of G&W can still be winnable even if it seems almost hopeless on paper (no pun, and TBH I really don't see how G&W is a problem to begin with, but I digress.).

Third, you people to star Spinshotting to Bair. Yes I know how you've been preached to do the CiTH combo but honestly if y'all just start flying up, over, and behind, you'll be in a much safer position; add that Bair has some considerable pushback and no lag from a SS height it makes it all the more harder to punish you, and by the time they try anything you're GONE! You won't need shield pressure when you start embracing the hit-and-run style of Sonic. I'm not pointing this directly at Matador but for the rest of you, it's all food for though.

I always stop at third but my post doesn't:

Next - his priority isn't bad, it's that mentality people still have from March/April of 08 where most Sonic's would just approach with said attacks, and even they're not that bad when used correctly.

I'll it to Mario that he can camp, even if Sonic can still do it he can't really keep it up for long because a lot of characters force him to approach... but Sonic can still be played very gay don't get me wrong... but seriously even if Sonic is at a majority of the time forced to attack, it's the things I've mentioned before that allow him to be successful in what he does, and when you're good attributes are good enough to cover some other lacking fields, you might not need them as much.

...Yet if Sonic was as broken as Meta Knight, being able to do good in everything, that really wouldn't hurt when you're not feeling in the mood for one playstyle... Somehow Sakurai messed up Sonic and yet did him right or captured the very character that is Sonic... who doesn't just want to stay in one place for too long, but would rather be on the assault...

Psh, can be just put both at mid tier? They really are equally potent AFAI can see.

Also how is Lucas above Sonic? I know I wasn't around for the discussion, but is that even possible when Lucas has Ness' same problems and worse?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uh..If you're just gonna use the move when you're hugging your opponent, you might as well be bragging about the spacing aspects of luigi's up B. It's irrelevant. Sonic's spacing is **** to begin with and the only reason he isn't demolished by characters with great range is his speed and mobility. This does not equate to good spacing. Mario's agility in the air does. He is a better spacing character, period.

the fac tthat I acn run in between Olimars grabs is very, very good.
The fact I can punish Marths Fair or Ikes Far )which Mario cannot do) says quote alot.
The fact that the opponent cannot take a swing at the hedgehog without risk of the character rushing in and punishing says alot.

Sonics spacing game is very good. If only because of speed and mobility.
By your logic, Wario does not space well and we know that is not true.
Speed and mobility equate to good spacing provided it is high enough.

Considering Sonics longer ranged moves coupled with his speed and agility, he is good at spacing.

Well, I call it agility, but the several factors that make up a character's handling in the air. Mostly acceleration, and Sonic's is ****.

you already repeated something we agree with.

Sonics still fall prey to the WOP. every one of his many options falls prey to a decent WOP.

Are you joking?
1/4th FD=12 frame.
You really trying to say he will get WOP'ed?
I am sorry you are grossly underestimating sonics ability.

Marths Fair is over 15 frames. If Sonics stands outside that range (which is much less than 1/4th of FD).
Marth is in a position where a WOP isnt going to work.
WOPs are meant to wall off opponents with quick, high range, safe moves.
Sonic circumvents that in that you have to take into account the duration of your move into account.

Let alone dash shield grab goes through everything except the moves with high knockback.

A good second jump? How did you come to that conclusion? I'd say it's average at best.

There is a list for second jumps and Sonic is up there.

DI to the stage? His acceleration is crap.

Side B momentum cancel craps onto you.

Just to put this into perspective, if Sonic falls into the water on the left platform gap in jungle japes, he cannot make it back to the stage by jumping and using up B. [/quote\
Side B jump he grabs the ledge.
Go do it, your ignorance is terrible.

His dair? No character gets gimped if they are that high to begin with. Unless you mean dair to spring, in which case, have fun getting edgehogged/stage spiked.

Fail.
Dair lets sonic mix up his recovery approached, using it off stage when there is no safe ground beneath you is begging for punishment. Why assume stupid behavior?

Now, he may have various options in terms of recovering, but none of them make it dangerous to attempt a gimp. Mario, on the other hand, will screw you over if the tables are turned and he makes it back before you do.

Really?
I want you to take DK and try to spike Sonic without being punished for it. I want you to try it with mario as well.
Seriously dude, you are dealing with a character who can jump cancel his recovery.
You trying to gimp sonic without risk is not gonna happen.

Sonic's ground speed, that is to say the speed of his dash, does not make him a good spacing character.

Use a grab with Olimar.
I rush forward.
You try to grab again. I run out of range.
Total time for first grab=14 frames
Total time for second grab=22 frames.

Name someone else who can do the same thing and not get grabbed.

Let alone that spacing is meant to limit options, name a character that can pressure sonic and limit him to where he cannot do anything to you without placing yourself in a positon where you cannot harm him.

Sure, Mario has to land, but he can immediately jump and throw out another attack the moment he does.

So can Sonic.
Whats the difference.

Mario can spend 95% of his time spacing bairs vs most chars.

yet Sonic, with his superior ground and mobility speed, cannot?
Riht.

His hyphen smash isn't much of a spacing tool. It's a rocket attack. You might as well say his spindash is a good spacing tool because it goes far.

Usmash can be used to space because of how far and how fast it travels. It is not easy at all to punish.

Why do you think most characters just stand there when facing sonic?
They cannot force him close, they have to wait for him to decide to come near.

Again, none of this has anything to do with spacing. There's also the 3rd option, where your opponent shields both hits and grabs you.

Agreed.
However, tipper Ftilt and tipper Bair are safe on block against most of the cast.

This assumes your opponent has no: Traps, spammable attacks, disjointed attacks, continuous jabs, continuous grabbing attacks, rocketing attacks that beat yours, projectiles or anything that would consistently stop you. Most characters have something to deal with this. My main doesn't, though, and that's the only problem I ever have against Sonic.

Um actually it does.
can you name a character who can go into his side B then cancel it when there is trouble?
Sonic keeps his options open, thats why he can do so much when he approaches while remaining safe.

You fire a laser, I shield it then dash towards you and cover much more space than ANYONE in the game.
In fact, you cannot use more than two projectiles without me being in front of you.

You can spam your attacks but again, anything more than 15 frames in length and Sonic has the possibility of getting in. That number becomes even smaller as he is closer.
The threat of punishment for mis-spacing is always there.
You can't merely WOP Sonic. You have to ensure you cannot be punished when try to space Sonic.
Which for most characters, places them outside of range to harm Sonic.
So they wait, while he dashes around controlling the tempo and spacing of the matchup.

now characters with projectiles are more tricky, but this is where powershielding starts to be really helpful

Well, he could toss fireballs along the ground until one hits, forcing Marth to come near him to attack him, [/quote[ Stop playig bad Marths.
I'll jab your fireballs out the air. What are going to do now? Throw more?
jab jab jab.
Get spaced.

then dash+shield into comfort zone.

How?
When marth has such good range and Mario doesnt have sonics dash shield grab range.

He could also rar a bair which can be spaced just as well as Marth's fair.

Disjointed attack vs non disjointed attack.

Who wins out?

He could also FLUDD Marth's blade, if I recall correctly FLUDDing the tip of Marth's attack gives him a ton of hitlag. Mario ends his fludd animation before Marth's hitlag ends, allowing him to close the gap.

Good luck with that.

Do you realize how close you must be?
As well as the circumstances regarding marth being that close.
You are unsafe. You need FLUDD precharged and you would need to have Marth in position where you arent in risk of his sword.

He has several options for this. You could also cape him, cape is a very long range disjointed move that beats everything as long as it hits his opponent's body.

Marths sword has greater range than the cape.
Next argument?

Pretty sure it will never clank. The easiest option would be coating the ground with fireballs, limiting his landing options.

Marths agility is comparable to marios and he has higher speed IIRC.
Fireballs are also rather slow and have predictable trajectory and Fair covers so much area.

That's never happened to me because I don't allow it to happen. We are not talking about the Mario vs Sonic matchup, and mainly vs Sonic you want to WOP him to force him into his up B then gimp that. I've also never found any trouble killing Sonic, as far as his weight goes, As DK I kill him at 70 and as Mario, probably 80 with F smash. His weight is no plus.

DK IS A FRIGGIN HARD HITTER!
HE KILLS HEAVIES EARLY TOO!
*facepalm*

You aren;t gimping ^B Do you not realize how friggin high it goes?
Do you not realize sonic is in full control of his side B?
Do you not realize how insane your argument sounds?

@matador: **** dude is making me want to use Mario now XD.

 

[Kinzer]

D*** you people, you're all gangraping the guy.

How about your opinions, I already posted mine, where do you people stand? XD

Also since Matador is already here, we might as well invite any/all of the other Mario boarders that are interested in this kind of discussion and get their PoV, even though maybe everything has already been said.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually I would have to side with the Mario's. I do think Mario is potentially better than Sonic, though not by much.

*shot*

 

[JayBee]

enough of this spacing garbage.

sonic in the air spaces usually with bair, which is, although slower to come out is longer than mario's it also has little landing lag. and lets him move away. hell, sonic can outspace luigis moves with bair and ftilt if done intellegently, and not feel like i have to go "sonic aggro" like people seem to think he's only good for.

on the ground, sonic's dash is very important in spacing. i dont know how people can say this doesn't mean anything in terms of spacing. every fast character in anygame uses thier superiour speed to approach, space, and retreat constantly, and it works in tourneys all the time. mario's techniques for spacing are the standard of what brawl is, while sonic is an extreme in one of the major categories. how can someone tell the fastest character in the game that his speed doesn't mean anything when it comes to spacing. people, i think underestimate how strong his movement game is, simply because of a lack of projectile. and the fake outs he has fits well in a tournament setting.

most projectike characters can't even pin sonic down for long with those projectiles in the first place. he covers the distance so well in each shot. and against mario's fireballs, he can just spinshot away. it may be safer for mario to do so, and smash tells us that this is a proven thing to do, but sonic can opt to not even deal with it at all and dash away.

i dont know why there have not been a lot of marios makeing a name for themselves other than Boss (who btw, last time i checked, really plays luigi in tourneys as of now), but thats not anyones fault but thiers. and i dont believe its because of something stupid like D3's chaingrabs, though it factors some. and also, marth, and may other characters, eat fireballs using thier attacks. marth can cut them like they weren't there, hell, sonic can jab them, and move away before mario can capitolize. sure its not how everyone else does it, but that's because no one can on just running speed alone, but sonic. so let's not get in it in our head that beacuse he has an okay projectile approach, hes better than sonic, becuause sonic has none, yet he gets to the opponent quicker, and puts just as much if not more pressure on the opponent.

another thing, people are saying this and that about FLUDD, however, its only really good in very specific situations, other wise its usage is entirely player dependant.


I think that the basics of sonic's game, in order to do it right, takes more time and makes him a harder character to learn compared to mario. up close mario IMO is better overall. at closign and spacing its sonic. at recovery its sonic. at edgegaruding its a tie. in tourney representation and results, sonic wins. at comboing its a tie.

the end.

 

[Kinzer]

Yeah I'll shoot you alright for saying that!

Also doesn't lack a projectile, he is a Mutha @#$%ing projectile!

Sonic for President lyfe.

 

[bobson]

Our games sell more than yours. Pbbthtbhpthbt.

 

[Kinzer]

Pfth, just 'cause your games are more attuned to the little 5 year kiddies doesn't mean they're better.

Spoiler

I still say that pretty much has been said, maybe.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Our games sell more than yours. Pbbthtbhpthbt.

We would have won the console war but Sega decided not to support 3rd party games as much as they should. =P

No one cares about a jumping plumber.
They care about a super sonic blue furry who can go super saiyan.

 

[Chis]

Er, lets not bring that into this thread lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol mario has the sales... but sonic has the popularity, how do you think he got in the game in the first place

 

[Matador]

Sonic definitely has a higher learning curve than Mario. Mario really isn't even THAT hard to play at tourney level, but you really have to know the game to utilize all of his options.

I honestly have no idea why there aren't many of us. Boss still reps Mario for tourneys even though it's little. We have Marios like BO X7, Famous, TC1, VatoBreak, SupaTony, KirinBlaze, and others out there repping him and placing pretty well with their respective seconds for bad matchups but we're still low. I think our tourney representation is low or something, not sure. I personally just can't afford the time or money to get out to tourneys as much as I'd like, even though I've been to a few.

By the way, Mario vs D3 is NOT as bad as many make it out to be. Mashing out of the infinite since it requires a pummel is stupid easy up till 60%. I've seen Boss do it. I've done it myself. Again, just change your playstyle to campy and play safer. It's still a terrible matchup, but it's not scaring Marios away...not any Marios that'd actually make a difference anyway.

I also don't think Mario sweeps Sonic in spacing either. I just think that his ability to do things like pivot his cape and space Nairs to stutterstepped Fsmashes is pretty notable. I figure it gives him an edge, but hey, I could be wrong. I play Mario, you play Sonic. Naturally I'd have my bias even though I'm trying to stay as objective as possible.

Anyways, you have my opinion, though I doubt any other Marios will really agree with me. Mario is a tiny step ahead of Sonic in terms of potential because of his vast array of options, but Sonic isn't far behind. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he passed Mario in the next tier list...granted SBR actually pays attention to characters lower than Kirby on the list this time -_-

Ness >> Lucas, yet they're even. wtf.

 

[vato_break]

mario shouldn't even be in low tier...he should be in the middle of mid and sonic should be at the top of low.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Firstoff, Mario is simply a way better video game character by concept.

Sonic's 2d platformers have WHOAMYGOD CAMERA ISSUES! It's like you start running, WHOA THIS GUY IS FAST! *CRASH* Stupid walls.

Mario's 2d platformers on the other hand are so ****ing good that people make spinoffs of them. Specifically SMW and SMB3 and their related hacks > any of Sonic's platformers.

Mario in general has a more solid grip on the low tier than Sonic does. Come to think of it...I can't really think of any matchups that Sonic clearly does better in than Mario, while Mario on the other hand, I can definitely say that he does better against characters like Wolf, Falco, Bowser, DK, Marth, Luigi, and Kirby.

 

[Darknid]

Firstoff, Mario is simply a way better video game character by concept.

Sonic's 2d platformers have WHOAMYGOD CAMERA ISSUES! It's like you start running, WHOA THIS GUY IS FAST! *CRASH* Stupid walls.

Mario's 2d platformers on the other hand are so ****ing good that people make spinoffs of them. Specifically SMW and SMB3 and their related hacks > any of Sonic's platformers.

Mario in general has a more solid grip on the low tier than Sonic does. Come to think of it...I can't really think of any matchups that Sonic clearly does better in than Mario, while Mario on the other hand, I can definitely say that he does better against characters like Wolf, Falco, Bowser, DK, Marth, Luigi, and Kirby.

Well, thing about Sonic The Hedgehog as a game is, anything short of running really fast on a set track is done better by Mario platformers. That game would never exist without Mario creating that gameplay. Clearly inferior as a game to anything you see from the Mario series. If my parents bought me a sega system when I was a kid I'd be pretty pissed. This may explain why a lot of sonic mains are ****s.

The only matchup I can think of that Sonic does better than Mario in as far as high tiers go is D3, for obvious reasons. Sonic is a bit of a ***** to grab in the first place and can't be infinite'd. If you take the Snake matchup, which is important..I just don't see how Sonic can do anything in that matchup. Traps everywhere, Snake has a reliable way to intercept spindash/interrupt sonic's dash(as easy as holding A), while Mario's is a 55-45 from what I remember..not bad.

Another thing that hasn't been addressed regarding Mario is his insanely underrated camping game. Who outcamps Mario? Maybe Oli, and who else? Hell, it's possible that Mario outcamps oli anyway. You can't slip a projectile through cape spam, the timing window required would only allow what..3% of projectiles to go through? You definitely wouldn't be hit more than Mario if you spammed lasers/arrows against his cape.

 

[Browny]

oh ffs STOP listing matchup ratios as some sort of worthwhile argument. "lol sonic/mario goes XX:YY vs Snake because we say so." Its a horribly flawed argument, you will never convince anyone and posting it is an insult to everyone who wasted thier time having read it.

btw matador with all the new GOOD players in the sbr-b now i think were pretty safe for having a decent tier list come june lol.

 

[Kinzer]

Firstoff, Mario is simply a way better video game character by concept.

Sonic's 2d platformers have WHOAMYGOD CAMERA ISSUES! It's like you start running, WHOA THIS GUY IS FAST! *CRASH* Stupid walls.

Mario's 2d platformers on the other hand are so ****ing good that people make spinoffs of them. Specifically SMW and SMB3 and their related hacks > any of Sonic's platformers.

Mario in general has a more solid grip on the low tier than Sonic does. Come to think of it...I can't really think of any matchups that Sonic clearly does better in than Mario, while Mario on the other hand, I can definitely say that he does better against characters like Wolf, Falco, Bowser, DK, Marth, Luigi, and Kirby.

Well, thing about Sonic The Hedgehog as a game is, anything short of running really fast on a set track is done better by Mario platformers. That game would never exist without Mario creating that gameplay. Clearly inferior as a game to anything you see from the Mario series. If my parents bought me a sega system when I was a kid I'd be pretty pissed. This may explain why a lot of sonic mains are *****.

The only matchup I can think of that Sonic does better than Mario in as far as high tiers go is D3, for obvious reasons. Sonic is a bit of a ***** to grab in the first place and can't be infinite'd. If you take the Snake matchup, which is important..I just don't see how Sonic can do anything in that matchup. Traps everywhere, Snake has a reliable way to intercept spindash/interrupt sonic's dash(as easy as holding A), while Mario's is a 55-45 from what I remember..not bad.

Another thing that hasn't been addressed regarding Mario is his insanely underrated camping game. Who outcamps Mario? Maybe Oli, and who else? Hell, it's possible that Mario outcamps oli anyway. You can't slip a projectile through cape spam, the timing window required would only allow what..3% of projectiles to go through? You definitely wouldn't be hit more than Mario if you spammed lasers/arrows against his cape.

Wow, I just wrote a huge summary of why these two in particular interest me... and then somehow I get kicked out, log back in, and then it's all lost... stupid school servers.

I'm even more infuriated right now, and I don't feel like doing it all again, so I'm just gonna keep it short, sweet, and to the point.

A2, congradulations, you're not the person I don't want to avoid to debate the most with now. However I still need to address you since you're here anyway.

First off, I'll just assume the franchise talk is all some kind of joke... and it is, because no matter how much evidence you bring to prove whatever, it doesn't really matter any in the long-run since that's not what the purpose of this thread is!

Second, it's easy to name matchups where the characters almost never see the day of light, you can say that Mario beats out Captain Falcon 99-1, it really won't matter to anybody when the main concern of most people are the top-high tiers. Out of all the characters you mentioned that filled that criteria are Marth and Kirby... and LOL at how 5 points would make any signifigant difference.

Dark, you resorting to insults/flames is reportable, frankly IDC if you develop a vendetta, at least A2 doesn't resort to this kind of stuff in his steadfast debate. You on the other hand are outright silly for even seriously talking about the franchise this way and having to call us out.

You're also funny, you think like A2 that Mario makes anymore of a stand-alone character than Sonic when they both have similar matchup ratios with the exception of D3. Go ahead, feel comfortable that you have 5 points of influence in certain MUs, if I said it once I'll say it again:

It makes

next to

no difference

in the long run.

Especially not when I could waste my time scribbling through our MU thread and pull the same s*** out of my a** card. I have better things to do than having to look for even the most miniscule difference that won't change any GD thing.

Also what kind of camping game does Mario have when anybody not named MK with his transcedent sword can just jab out Fireballs and/or shield them? It may still be there granted, but when on the defensive I doubt he's a better character in said field than say Bowser... who I think Nintendo intentionally made a fortress out of, even his Up-B is named after it.

 

[Tenki]

Firstoff, Mario is simply a way better video game character by concept.

Sonic's 2d platformers have WHOAMYGOD CAMERA ISSUES! It's like you start running, WHOA THIS GUY IS FAST! *CRASH* Stupid walls.

It does seem that way in the newer games lol. In the old games, he moved slower and believe it or not, there was more of a platforming aspect XD

for my programming class, I made a 2d platformer, and I think my character runs a bit too fast for his own good, but I had a pretty nice fix to the camera issue by making the camera look further ahead while you're running. >__>' too bad S.Team hasn't figured this out.

If you take the Snake matchup, which is important..I just don't see how Sonic can do anything in that matchup. Traps everywhere, Snake has a reliable way to intercept spindash/interrupt sonic's dash(as easy as holding A), while Mario's is a 55-45 from what I remember..not bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZuoyw5iKf4

Note that this is a bad match to use as an example, but it shows what kind of pressure game Sonic holds - the fast movement to hide when the true approach is coming, baiting and punishing dodges.

Snake will generally be limited to grenade/C4/CQC based traps (prox mines are asking for Sonic to use to limit Snake's movements or for Sonic to actually grab him while he's still setting them), and Sonic can avoid or take advantage of grenade counter attempts.

9_9;

anyway, lol @ everyone hogging out on the aerial movement thing.

Mario has nice aerial acceleration, and since most Brawl characters have slow ground movement/mobility, aerial acceleration is generally seen as the status symbol for spacing ability (hint --> wario)

 

[Chis]

Well, thing about Sonic The Hedgehog as a game is, anything short of running really fast on a set track is done better by Mario platformers. That game would never exist without Mario creating that gameplay. Clearly inferior as a game to anything you see from the Mario series. If my parents bought me a sega system when I was a kid I'd be pretty pissed. This may explain why a lot of sonic mains are *****.

Yeah, spam and flaming will be reported. Don't do that again.

The only matchup I can think of that Sonic does better than Mario in as far as high tiers go is D3, for obvious reasons. Sonic is a bit of a ***** to grab in the first place and can't be infinite'd. If you take the Snake matchup, which is important..I just don't see how Sonic can do anything in that matchup. Traps everywhere, Snake has a reliable way to intercept spindash/interrupt sonic's dash(as easy as holding A), while Mario's is a 55-45 from what I remember..not bad.

What DJ and Tenki said.