The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

KirinBlaze said:

Don't worry, I'll be there. The venue is only like..not even an hour away. I was surprised when I learned how close it was.

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and team GARBAGE DAY! shall reign supreme

Camalange said:

Not only that, even when Sonic is allowed Ike wins low tiers anyway. Ike in teams is the new MK of low tier doubles. Double Ike is absurd xD

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Ike is that good in low tier doubles? Funny that you would say that. I teamed with JG Wentworth in low tier doubles a couple of months ago. He was Samus and I was Mario. (of course) We fought an Ike and a Ness and i gimped Ness once and Ike twice in game one. I would've gimped them more in game 2, but they chose Castle siege which I don't like and I don't gimp well there except for the 3rd part. Ike is definitely not the MK of low tier doubles.

About the MU ratio, does 55:45 Mario seem right?

I'd like to say f-smash is useless in this match-up, well at least for me. I can't, and will not hit a Sonic with f-smash ever. I just recenetly played a Sonic (WiFi but...xD) and I took Matador's advice, **** that u-smash won me the match (I used it for all my K.O's), he was right on the button for it. Not that I doubted you in the first place.

Eh, I'd like to call it even, but I mean if everyone else agrees to 55:45 then let it be.

Camalange said:

JG is legit, but you haven't given names to the Ike and Ness...and this took place a couple of months ago.

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Bajisca (I think that's how you spell it) was Ness and Orion was Ike. They are/were on the top 15 in NJ. JG is definitely legit. I made Mario a threat though and that is enough for me.

I just came back from NJ the other day where Inui+M2K (Ike+Ike) won doubles, and both took first/second in singles. They took down legit low tier mains in both, and don't even main Ike seriously. That's all I'm sayin :/

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Easy explanation: They are Inui and M2K. Inui pwns in teams and M2K pwns period. Also I'm not sure about M2K, but Ike is Inui's low tier main. Maybe not double Ike's but at the same tourney, Inui and Atomsk (Ike and PT respectively) lost to shadow and puffster at doubles jiggz

M2K mains Ike in low tiers. Inui I'm very sure mains CF in low tiers, or maybe that was last time when I asked.

Inui plays Ike/Ganondorf in Low Tiers. Mostly Ike.

That was a good talk. You Sonic people are all right but I think us Mario's should discuss someone else. I say we go with TL or spin a wheel to find out.

_kadaj_ said:

http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=20538

Lol

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You should have posted this in the social thread my boy...


Mario>Sonic...Just don't get air clipped

Toon link should be the next, I been runing into too many of them

TL is a straightforward matchup. He's gonna camp you. You will cape his projectiles. His Z-air and N-air are annoying. He sucks at landing KO moves. But you can keep up with him with combos, and edgeguarding.

Oh and by the way. He cannot shieldgrab your N-air or U-air if you time it right. You can D-smash, tilt, or Jab him before he can grab that if you do it right. The best way to set up this frame trap is by doing your SH D-air -> N-air/U-air. In case he catches on to this and tries to wait out your next attack, just try grab instead.

lol we had a major discussion on tl yesterday...you missed out

Abuse your FLUDD against Toon Link. I cancels out his arrows and boomerang as well as pushes away his bombs. Between FLUDD, Cape, and Nair you have a solid arsenal against his projectiles. If you're going to try and camp him use FHFireballs. Toon Link's camping game is Short Hop oriented so coming down with a a FHFireball gets around this and his range. It also gives you a few other options on the way down like Cape Stalling to see what he's going to do or to bait something so you can punish with an aerials, or just coming down with a FF'd aerial.

- As mario, you guys should be able to gimp toonlink fairly easy regardless of how low we recover. Thus, most of the time, we will hold a bomb while trying to recover to prevent a gimp.
-With this sad, toonlink can gimp mario moderately easy as well.
-Zair beats out your Fire balls.
-Should be pretty knowledgeable to most smashers but NEVER come near the ledge when toonlink is camping near it and you are under 25%. This results in a free stock for toonlink for most characters (Mario falls under this list)
-Getting back on stage is annoying for toonlink. Try to bait out an air dodge and punish or space yourself from the ledge and go from there.
-DO NOT ATTACK TOONLINKS SHIELD WITH MODERATELY LAGGY MOVES! Toonlink can do the following OoS:
N-Air, B-Air, Grab (lol), and the most punishing, Up-Smash.
Even moves as simple as pits dash attack can be punished by an Up-Smash OoS
-Toonlink is floaty, so keep that in mind when trying to do your "brawl" combos.
-A B-Air chain cannot be done in front of mario due to his N-air
-If you can get under neath toonlink when he is in the air, you can either 1) Bait out a Dair and punish severely or 2) Juggle the hell out of him since toonlink sucks once an opponent is underneath him just like marth (Marths Dair is Trash)
-Mario kills toonlink early than toonlink can kill mario (I believe)
-Your bair out ranges us but...Sword>Legs

Perferred Stages for toonlink during this match up:
Pirate Ship-(Reduces chances of being gimped)
Final Destination
Halberd-(Mario is more of a horizontal killer than anything I believe and toonlink will be killing vertically earlier). Keep in mind that mario will be killing lighter/mid weight characters (toonlink) at about 90-100 percent on this stage as well.

TL;DR Pretty much anywhere that allows toonlink to move around and use his projectiles while keeping Mario in Midrange since mario can cape our projectiles.

As for mario. These are the stages that Ive been counted with against him

Battlefield- Not that bad but better for mario in this match up.
Lylat-His fireballs are not affected as badly as toonlinks projectiles.

Something I would also like to add...This applies for any character vs toonlink. If toonlink cannot kill his opponent before he is killed, he WILL have a hard time coming back and getting a quick kill off the bat without receiving a good amount of damage. Hes mainly about momentum and projectile traps to help set up kills/gimps so take advantage of this and punish in your own unique ways.

Thats about it

55:45 Toonlink or 50:50 (I say 50:50 because it is based on Stage dependency and Matchup knowledge since this Match up involves a lot of momentum)

I talked to Izumi about this MU today. You can't let TL keep the momentum and PS as much as you can. Really PS is one of your most important tools in this MU. Also from what mlg said, i can go with an even MU.

I just thought I would point out...

Mario's F-smash does outrange Ike's (which outranges Marth's too btw). The spacing is a tad strict, but if you know exactly the distance Mario's reverse F-smash hits from, you should be fine.

Also, his F-smash from my experience playing the matchup seems to outrange Ike's F-air. We know how much he loves spacing F-air right? Well, charging F-smash can own that.

Oh yeah and the whole TL discussion sounds about right.

Mario's Fsmash just has amazing range, but it really doesn't change the matchup that much though good to know. Is it good to close TL or is there anything more to talk about?

I know your done with ROB (or not?), but I sorta debate that the ratio for the matchup be 65:35 Mario... I played a ROB on here today who was at my skill level, he mained ROB and me the Mario Bros (more Luigi) Luigi does good, a 60:40 or 55:45 with him comboing ROB easily and the fireballs stopping ROB's gyromite and other stuff, but Mario did great.

Mario most likely has troubles gimping ROB (Who really doesnt?) for his early kills to make up for lack of kill power, but the cape easily reflects ROB's 2 projectiles back at him, and can kill ROB rather quickly if it's a fully charged beam or gyromite. ROB's also very easy to combo, I managed to rack his damage up to almost 70% within a very short time. Juggling him's not much of a problem due to some clunky aerials which seem to be easily avoided. ROB does has a heavy weight which makes Mario's other killing moves sides from the cape rather hard to kill with, but otherwise, I found this to be a great matchup for Mario

65:35 Mario? If not, then definatly change it to 60:40. Luigi has a 60:40 against ROB, and Mario does even better than Luigi in this matchup I think.

Sorry if there's any problems with this, I'm not an advid main of Mario...more Luigi.

...ROB is honestly a hard matchup for me with his spacing tools that he's got. I think the matchup is more neutral, but you can ask Botastic about it. He's pretty much number one in this matchup.

But anyhow, a good ROB has tools that can easily interrupt Mario's approach and discourage fireball camping. ROB's F-smash is very annoying with its large disjoint and low ending lag and its anti-air properties. A ROB that angles lasers intelligently doesn't get punished for camping either.

Maybe the only reason I think the matchup is hard is because the only ROBs I've played were significantly better than me at the time lol.

Nice write up, mjg, though I would like to point out Halberd is a good Mario stage as well. His Usmash can KO lighter/mid weight characters off the top at mid 90%'s and low 100%'s. Mario can abuse the first part of the stage off the ledge rather well too.

vato_break said:

i've heard of jwn3d pretty good mario.3rd best WC mario =)

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Lol he is the best wc mario main imo. Prolly 2nd best after tc1.

l could have swore this MU died... along with Straked <3

Yeah, I died a few weeks ago.

But he's alive now...

As Samuel L. Jackson.

Get caped.

50:50 sounds good, both have some nice pros and cons against each other

Yonder said:

I know your done with ROB (or not?), but I sorta debate that the ratio for the matchup be 65:35 Mario... I played a ROB on here today who was at my skill level, he mained ROB and me the Mario Bros (more Luigi) Luigi does good, a 60:40 or 55:45 with him comboing ROB easily and the fireballs stopping ROB's gyromite and other stuff, but Mario did great.

Mario most likely has troubles gimping ROB (Who really doesnt?) for his early kills to make up for lack of kill power, but the cape easily reflects ROB's 2 projectiles back at him, and can kill ROB rather quickly if it's a fully charged beam or gyromite. ROB's also very easy to combo, I managed to rack his damage up to almost 70% within a very short time. Juggling him's not much of a problem due to some clunky aerials which seem to be easily avoided. ROB does has a heavy weight which makes Mario's other killing moves sides from the cape rather hard to kill with, but otherwise, I found this to be a great matchup for Mario

65:35 Mario? If not, then definatly change it to 60:40. Luigi has a 60:40 against ROB, and Mario does even better than Luigi in this matchup I think.

Sorry if there's any problems with this, I'm not an advid main of Mario...more Luigi.

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Might just be me, but sometimes we put own the MU is more in the opponents favor than it should be for the sake of shutting them up. ROB is 60:40 Mario, Falco, Pit, and Lucario are even (Maybe 55:45 disadvantage for Lucario but not 60:40) I've heard that Oli is possibly Mario's advantage though I think it's even (Oli is just annoying to play due to his playstyle), and Bowser is 60:40 Mario. Now I will admit these are my opinions, but I can back them up.

Anyways if we are closing TL, we can go to D3 and get it over with (or just steal from their boards) or go to Jiggz or Ike for the sake of low tier tourneys. I would prefer Jiggz because sometimes I don't fully know how to fight her.

KirinBlaze said:

Nice write up, mjg, though I would like to point out Halberd is a good Mario stage as well. His Usmash can KO lighter/mid weight characters off the top at mid 90%'s and low 100%'s. Mario can abuse the first part of the stage off the ledge rather well too.

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Ok i missed that note. Ill go back and Edit.

Thanks!

Jigglypuff...I honestly have no idea what the matchup ratio is. My first instinct says it's neutral.

If you know how a good Jigglypuff plays, they will play very campy like Wario. And it can be extremely frustrating. However with fireball camping, a few combos, and your Up-smash, she doesn't last all that long. However be wary of her when you go offstage. She's very good at edgeguarding, and Mario's predictable recovery is something that she can capitalize on very effectively.

The more pressure you can put on her with well-spaced aerials and fireballs, the better you will do in this matchup. Trying to stay away from her to camp is usually pointless since she can simply chase down and punish if you try to play keep away.

That's my opinion vs Jigglypuff anyway.

And as for Ike:

A really boring but simple matchup. Intelligent fireball camping is very safe against him. Up-smash out of shield can punish almost everything Ike does on your shield. If Ike is stupid enough to QD your shield, reverse F-smash punishes that. Up-B out of shield can get him as he jabs. FLUDD, cape, N-air, and other stuff also gimps him really hard, and your F-smash can outrange his stuff (even his F-air and F-smash both can get outranged by a well-spaced F-smash). 90% of Ike's game will be punishing you with Jabs and F-air, so the more you can stay safe from those two attacks, the better you will do in this matchup (and if Ike thinks he can Jab out of spotdodge or shield, make sure to D-air him). 6/4 Mario imo...

Inferno3044 said:

and Bowser is 60:40 Mario. Now I will admit these are my opinions, but I can back them up.

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You really gotta fight some good Bowsers Inferno. They absolutely will not let you camp them, ESPECIALLY as Mario.

Online, maybe it's 60:40. Believe it or not, fireballs are much better online than offline. Offline though, where they can reliably powershield and punish your lag (very likely with a grab release -> sideB or something) makes for difficulty camping.

Our best tools here are the ability to combo and gimp him easily, and having a consistent approach method. Camping will get you wrecked though. Fireballs are mediocre for that. These things in mind, we're vulnerable to his OOS options, grab releases, and amazing KO power. Even from the surface you can tell that this is an even matchup.

If Bowser's shield is worn out just a little, you can fireball camp all you want since it will more easily poke him.

Who here knows Bowser can just Jab fireballs?

Any character can jab fireballs....

Flayl said:

Who here knows Bowser can just Jab fireballs?

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ooh! me! me ! I know l know!

How about that walking to ftilt eh mate?

fireballs are good but not crazy good compared to Falcos homobeast spam lasers.

Famous said:

Any character can jab fireballs....

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Pretty much. I love how people act like it's news.

Flayl said:

Who here knows Bowser can just Jab fireballs?

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Oh yeah! This is totally new! I didn't know this! OMG Mario's fireballs are useless!

Nice try. That's why good Marios fullhop Fireballs to hit you from unique angles. It's also the safest and most effective way for him to camp.

It's also completely useless against Bowser. Well I'm glad we're all cleared up on that.

Lol, nothing is completely useless against Bowser...No Bowser I've played has actually had the time to jab every single fireball that comes towards them...

Flayl said:

It's also completely useless against Bowser. Well I'm glad we're all cleared up on that.

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You obviously missed my point.

GOOD Marios can spam fireballs at angles that are very difficult for Bowser to deal with. He's a big target, and if his shield is even somewhat worn down, he's at significant risk of getting shieldpoked.

And say like I know you want to Jab fireballs, I'll just aim them high so that they burn your face.

You can't exactly afford to whiff against Mario anyhow when his F-smash does in fact outrange every one of Bowser's attacks not named Firebreath. It's better than Bowser's F-smash because Bowser almost always relies on someone leaning into his F-smash in order to make the most of it, while Mario can always reach from outside Bowser's range with his F-smash regardless of what Bowser does. Mario's F-smash does 18%, and aside from outranging so much in this game, it gets people off the stage if it doesn't kill them. If the stage doesn't have a lot of platforms, good luck recovering against a good Mario.

Yes, Bowser can make Mario's life a bit miserable when Mario has to get up from the ledge, but it doesn't really compare to the fact that Mario is pretty darn good at gimping predictable recoveries.