The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

Metatitan said:

My god, we've taken the matchup discussion and turned it into a debate on who the top peaches are. To both sky and dark, I hope you know that unless you consistently place high (which neither of you do, but sky quit peach for awhile so we'll see), it is extremely tasteless to call yourselves top or best peach mains on a certain coast. I'm not saying either of you aren't, but let other people give you titles and let them bring that here instead of yourselves.

Back onto the matchup, Vato are you going to active gamers? I'd like to take a shot at the matchup and see how I do

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I swear you have the urge to just want to cause crap. And why even drag me in this? I said nothing in the matter and had nothing to do with me. But to bring fact to you that once again, you know nothing about, I am the Beast Peach on the EC and one of the top in the country. it's not a bias statement or fanboy crap. it's facts for how I been doing in tournaments and beating those I have played, gone even with.

Seriously enough with this, seriously it is always you bring this garbage up, really in areas not needed. Cause I could be a straight tool and say you have not done anything with Peach and just became a Peach main for your words to matter at all. Edreese already said this to people already. Learn your place and quit it. Seriously really freaking annoying as hell you are. Damm, I might just add you on ignore man.

I'm going to have to ask you guys to stop. Meta, you're really just looking to start something.

hmm ok then lol

sorry about that post, but that just got me annoyed how I got dragged into that when I did not even say anything on the matter. It was Sky who got on about it, not me.Just talking about Peach Vs Mario.

Also I don't think there is anything else to say. And most said 55:45 Peach. So I guess you guys can close this up and move on. I really don't have anything else to say.

55-45 peach, I think we should cover wolf or olimar.

Actually ill just take it to vm

Dark.Pch said:

sorry about that post, but that just got me annoyed how I got dragged into that when I did not even say anything on the matter. It was Sky who got on about it, not me.Just talking about Peach Vs Mario.

Also I don't think there is anything else to say. And most said 55:45 Peach. So I guess you guys can close this up and move on. I really don't have anything else to say.

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I'll try to brawl more Peachy players online. Lag is a such a B***H

OK. I think most of us agree on 55:45 Peach. Let's just say 55:45 Peach arguable for 50:50. This dragged out long enough. Jman we already did Olimar, but I wanna rediscuss him. We haven't done Wolf though. So people decide on Olimar (again) or Wolf. If not those, then say someone else.

Sky` said:

From best peach on the WC according to M2K, to a 'notable' peach.

X] Never thought titles would get to me.

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Just seeing my name being mentioned is enough. Seriously I haven't played since early July lol.

As far as the matchup goes; I'm going to have to say 60-40 Peach favor. I'll also go with a 55-45 if need be.

lololol

Gotta love the Peach boards.

DraikRoan said:

Just seeing my name being mentioned is enough. Seriously I haven't played since early July lol.

As far as the matchup goes; I'm going to have to say 60-40 Peach favor. I'll also go with a 55-45 if need be.

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It's not 60:40. 60:40 means that you have the character has a significant advantage over the other. Peach has some stuff going for her, but definitely not so that Mario would have a tough time with.

EDIT: OK. Wolf, Fox or Lucas starts.

Most people will agree with 55-45 peach,

Can we do Lucas now? I have come to a realization that I really don't know this MU at all because I was doing poorly against a Lucas today in low tiers. Also I was a ******* and approached with SH's and kept getting hit with retreating PK fires which wouldn't work if I remembered that i can shield while dashing. I was just so dumb today.

EDIT: Lucas discussion starts now.

vs Lucas is 55/45 to 6/4 Mario's favor.

Lucas can keep up in damage racking, but Mario is waaaaay better off in terms of getting the KO (or gimping). That's why he wins this matchup.

His KO moves are all terrible except in terms of knockback. All of them are easy to avoid. If he F-smashes, just stay out of range and stutter step F-smash to punish it. PK fire is an EASY powershield or Cape on reaction. Your spacing game is better than his due to you having more speed.

Anyhow Lucas can't kill unless you make a mistake and fall into something dumb, while you can outspace him with F-smash, actually have killer OOS options. Oh and by the way, D-air -> N-air/U-air cannot be shieldgrabbed if you Jab immediately after. Generally if you play a tight spacing game, you'll have the advantage for the most part since there are times you can punish Lucas's spacing with KO moves, while there are really not many times, if any where he can punish a good spacing game from Mario.

Oh and if he's in range while recovering, FLUDD or Cape his recovery for the epic lulz.

The only two matchups I currently worry about in low tiers are Zelda and Mario dittos. Everyone else I have no fear against.

Vs Zelda is just dumb because she has a ridiculous spotdodge game which I haven't learned to punish. Next time I enter low tiers, it will be a different story. =)

But...I get owned in dittos lol. I just suck at them. Maybe next time I'll beat Mikehaze. Or maybe not. =/

A2 pretty much got it right. The only thing Lucas has over Mario is that he has a better camp tool, and we go 'lol' to camping anyway. As far as ground game goes, Mario and Lucas are about even, besides the fact that Lucas has an insanely fast D-tilt. While KO power is definitely in Lucas' favor in terms of killing, execution and speed is in favor of Mario. He'll have a much easier time getting KOs.

Lucas' recovery is actually pretty good. Most Lucas players I know don't even need to use PKT2 unless they get sent low. Granted, their fall speed is what makes them vulnerable to cape most of the time. Mario's recovery, while more telegraphed, is much more safe. The only thing Mario has to worry about is PK freeze, which is just there for damage since the knockback actually rises you upward.

As for things to look out for: When off stage in general, whether you're recovering or edgeguarding, be careful about D-air, since there's a spike on the last hit. You should be getting hit by Lucas' U-Smash as much as you get hit by Ike's F-smash, but be careful about approaching with aerials during that, since there's a lingering hitbox. Same with his D-Smash, which often reminds me of G&W's turtle. -.-

And A2, the way to beat Zelda is by two ways. Either outcamp her, or D-air the hell outta her.

From what I can tell, Lucas likes counterpicking Luigi's mansion just because his D-smash lasts over 9000 years on that stage.

But anyhow it doesn't really change the matchup as long as you avoid that ****.

I was a bit slow on saturday and I'm too aerial based. I like being in the air for no reason which is why my shielding isnt amazing. I have too little faith in my ground game and will use bair or dair until i get in. With that, I was vulnerable to PK fire and that's why I lost. Honestly though, his Fsmash has pretty ok speed. Also to put this out, Mario's overall air game is better, but Lucas' nair is a very good combo breaker. How do you get past that? Also, what stage should I CP/ban?

If you get a Lucas off stage, a Lucas will try their best to avoid being gimped, we have alot more options than Ness (the one who we're always compared too, but we play completely different ).
- Zap Jump / Wavezap- A great recovery that is very hard to gimp due to the fact that it's pretty much a really high double jump with PKF (and Magnet). However, it is a difficult AT to pull of and can lead to very bad situations if missed
- Tether - Most people underestimate Lucas' tether. I've actually tested it, and it IS longer than Link's when catching the edge
- Wave Bounce / Magnet Pull - Lucas will recover high and use his PKF recoil, in this recoil he will get a large momentum swing from his PSI Magnet making gimping him up high really hard

Now how to gimp his PKT2 recovery

-A simple aerial will not kill Lucas unless performed correctly. A good Lucas will know his angling well and make it back. You must realize that Lucas is standing still for 1 1/2 seconds while he's using his recovery, make the best use.
-Cape will reflect Lucas while using PKT2, however you should find it necessary to edgehog due to Lucas' great special fall horizontal movement.
-Cape will reflect PKT1 while in use. This is not a good way to gimp due to having to time perfectly off stage, if you miss you'll end up getting PKT2'd.
-FLUDD. This is some scary **** for Lucas when he's off stage, it will push him from his Up-B and can sometimes kill. However, this is not gaurented gimp because he may be able to navigate his PKT1 to hit himself

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I'd say that your biggest worry off stage is Lucas D-air spike. It's a weak spike, but it's still a spike to gimp. If he try's to PKT1, you can use your cape to reflect it most times. Becareful of PKFreeze, although it's no where close in strength to Ness' PK Pulse.

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On stage, Lucas has a good ground game. When you're around 80% Lucas will start to try to D-air you. If he can land the meteor, try your best to tech it. If you don't tech it, it will lead to a d-tilt lock to f-smash, which is a gaurenteed kill for Lucas. Lucas' N-air will eat your shield, but it's extremely easy to out prioritize. If you see Lucas not retreat his F-air, you can shield grab. Lucas has a decent camping game with his Wavebounced PKF and can stop yours near completely with his PSI Magnet. If he Magnet's a fireball, Lucas can magnet cancel. This means you can't bait a PSI Magnet to punish most of the time.

I hope I helped

A2ZOMG said:

From what I can tell, Lucas likes counterpicking Luigi's mansion just because his D-smash lasts over 9000 years on that stage.

But anyhow it doesn't really change the matchup as long as you avoid that ****.

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he also combos better there, as most moves hit into the ceiling leading into other stuff.

Then there's the fact that PK fire works well against the pillars and usmash goes way high and lingers (bad, too)

oh, and the nair's kinda long on pillars too.

That's about it for mansion

Brinstar is a good Lucas stage too for some of the same reasons above and the small blast zones...

Norfair is the camp city for Lucas too

Don't fireball camp.

RocketPSIence said:

If you get a Lucas off stage, a Lucas will try their best to avoid being gimped, we have alot more options than Ness (the one who we're always compared too, but we play completely different ).
- Zap Jump / Wavezap- A great recovery that is very hard to gimp due to the fact that it's pretty much a really high double jump with PKF (and Magnet). However, it is a difficult AT to pull of and can lead to very bad situations if missed
- Tether - Most people underestimate Lucas' tether. I've actually tested it, and it IS longer than Link's when catching the edge
- Wave Bounce / Magnet Pull - Lucas will recover high and use his PKF recoil, in this recoil he will get a large momentum swing from his PSI Magnet making gimping him up high really hard

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I never have underestimated the tether and keep it in mind. Also Lucas can make it a bit difficult for Mario to gimp, but it's definitely possible if we get you offstage horizontally

Now how to gimp his PKT2 recovery

-A simple aerial will not kill Lucas unless performed correctly. A good Lucas will know his angling well and make it back. You must realize that Lucas is standing still for 1 1/2 seconds while he's using his recovery, make the best use.
-Cape will reflect Lucas while using PKT2, however you should find it necessary to edgehog due to Lucas' great special fall horizontal movement.
-Cape will reflect PKT1 while in use. This is not a good way to gimp due to having to time perfectly off stage, if you miss you'll end up getting PKT2'd.
-FLUDD. This is some scary **** for Lucas when he's off stage, it will push him from his Up-B and can sometimes kill. However, this is not gaurented gimp because he may be able to navigate his PKT1 to hit himself

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The point is that FLUDD is extremely useful to gimp Lucas. Big plus for us.

I'd say that your biggest worry off stage is Lucas D-air spike. It's a weak spike, but it's still a spike to gimp. If he try's to PKT1, you can use your cape to reflect it most times. Becareful of PKFreeze, although it's no where close in strength to Ness' PK Pulse.

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Dair offstage can be a bit of a threat due to its disjoints. I don't think it's too hard to dodge though. PKT1 and PKFreeze can both be nulled by cape. I never get hit by PKFreeze and I rarely get hit by PKT1.

On stage, Lucas has a good ground game. When you're around 80% Lucas will start to try to D-air you. If he can land the meteor, try your best to tech it. If you don't tech it, it will lead to a d-tilt lock to f-smash, which is a gaurenteed kill for Lucas. Lucas' N-air will eat your shield, but it's extremely easy to out prioritize. If you see Lucas not retreat his F-air, you can shield grab. Lucas has a decent camping game with his Wavebounced PKF and can stop yours near completely with his PSI Magnet. If he Magnet's a fireball, Lucas can magnet cancel. This means you can't bait a PSI Magnet to punish most of the time.

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His ground game is good, but nothing that Mario can't take. Your smashes are strong, but laggy. I forget sometimes that his Dsmash has a hitbox behind him though much weaker. When I see Lucas using dair, I counter it with a bair or UpB. My point is that you shouldn't fear dair. Just make sure you aren't below him and fight it with your much superior air game. Btw what out prioritizes Lucas' nair?

I hope I helped

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You did. Thank you.

EDIT: LM is legal in places? Really?

Out of all the low tiers, I honestly find Earthbound boy's the most difficult match-up for me.

My hardest low tier matchup is Zelda, just because her spotdodge game can kill you. Oh and Mario dittos.

Man, I gotta get into low tiers again. I gotta somehow get matches of me recorded. Seriously, I was a ****ing beast in low tiers. Except Mikehaze and Awesome beat me. XD

Inferno3044 said:

Can we do Lucas now? I have come to a realization that I really don't know this MU at all because I was doing poorly against a Lucas today in low tiers. Also I was a ******* and approached with SH's and kept getting hit with retreating PK fires which wouldn't work if I remembered that i can shield while dashing. I was just so dumb today.

EDIT: Lucas discussion starts now.

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Hey that set was against me gg's

RocketPSIence said:

Now how to gimp his PKT2 recovery

-A simple aerial will not kill Lucas unless performed correctly. A good Lucas will know his angling well and make it back. You must realize that Lucas is standing still for 1 1/2 seconds while he's using his recovery, make the best use.
-Cape will reflect Lucas while using PKT2, however you should find it necessary to edgehog due to Lucas' great special fall horizontal movement.
-Cape will reflect PKT1 while in use. This is not a good way to gimp due to having to time perfectly off stage, if you miss you'll end up getting PKT2'd.
-FLUDD. This is some scary **** for Lucas when he's off stage, it will push him from his Up-B and can sometimes kill. However, this is not gaurented gimp because he may be able to navigate his PKT1 to hit himself

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I prefer just using fireball.

Inferno3044 said:

Btw what out prioritizes Lucas' nair?

EDIT: LM is legal in places? Really?

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Nearly anything out prioritizes Lucas' nair, like an f-tilt or u-tilt probably, I'll have to test it for you guys.

about the edit. Yes, it is legal in places. One of Lucas mains who won a tourney in Columbia CP'd LM and d-throwed to d-tilt locked... I don't really see how the place could qualify for legal though

Just space B-air really well a lot. It will trade at minimum in the air with him, and you have better followups most of the time.

The only Low tier that scares me is (Ally's) captain falcon. :D


/ontopic

I believe the match up is even. Lucas shuts down a defensive Marios like me, and he's also isn't as easy to gimp as people thing. That magnet pull is pretty gay+Tether. The key is aggression and just playing safe.

XeroXen said:

Don't fireball camp.

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lol

10chars

Now Tyr is a god kai!? WHO IS NEXT!!!

But seriously don't fireball vs. Lucas, unless your really smart about it. It's a bad idea.

lol I got infracted for spam for that post Xero. Your Mod clearly didn't get to watch you healing me like 200% lol.

Bo, I play aggresive vs Lucas, I get wrecked by n-air, b-air or whatever other aerial he throws at me. D-air into fsmash easily wracks up 40 damage on me .

Tyr_03 said:

lol I got infracted for spam for that post Xero. Your Mod clearly didn't get to watch you healing me like 200% lol.

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Should've gotten that recorded, the perfect example of what not to do against Lucas.

BoTastic! said:

The only Low tier that scares me is (Ally's) captain falcon. :D


/ontopic

I believe the match up is even. Lucas shuts down a defensive Marios like me, and he's also isn't as easy to gimp as people thing. That magnet pull is pretty gay+Tether. The key is aggression and just playing safe.

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I agree w/ Bo, Lucas is so challenging w/ a great defense on Mario, fireball camp will fail. 55/45 our favor or 50/50 even

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:

I agree w/ Bo, Lucas is so challenging w/ a great defense on Mario, fireball camp will fail. 55/45 our favor or 50/50 even

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...No. 45/55 Lucas.

takerfan619 said:

Hey that set was against me gg's

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ggs. I was off that day but chances are you would've won anyways. It was a fun match, but I think PS1 is what gave you the 2 stock. I don't play on that stage much and you are very good on that stage. Though I might not be able to do tourneys for a bit, when I do I will be better.

I haven't lost to a Lucas in tournament. Just saying...

It's about how to fight each aerial. Normally I attempt to dodge nair, but now that I know that it doesn't have much priority, I can go in fighting that move. His dair isn't to bad. If you see he's using it, fight from the side and bair him. Use fireballs like you would against G&W. Use them sparingly, but intelligently. When they are at really low percents like close to 0%, fireballs can be used very well as an approach because absorbing wont be of any use.

Now I'm not saying this will be an easy matchup. I''m saying you can't be overly aggressive or overly defensive. If you are very defensive, nair will be a big problem. If you are overly offensive, then you will be punished. The Mario style of being very versatile and reacting accordingly. This will give you the momentum to fight him. He is possible to gimp though quite a bit more difficult than Ness is. Use Dsmash or Fsmash to get him off stage due to their horizontal knockback. Use can use Fthrow if you can follow it up.

My point is that you can't rely on an extreme too much to win this. Like Mario, you must be versatile to beat him as well as other characters. Kinda funny that I didn't think of all this when I fought Nasty. 60:40 Mario might be a bit extreme, but I don't lose to Lucas too often (pointing out that I did lose to Nasty on Saturday) and I think Mario has some advantage. 55:45 Mario is my input. Maybe 60:40 because he can't kill well except with Fsmash which is still not that fast. His only kill moves are his smashes which are pretty slow. That or a dair/nair(?) spike.

Inferno3044 said:

When they are at really low percents like close to 0%, fireballs can be used very well as an approach because absorbing wont be of any use.

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Lucas' magnet is not like the bucket. I consider it the inverse or opposite. It has too much begining lag and not enough ending lag. If a Lucas magnet's a projectile he can jump or crouch out of it to avoid an attack while gaining health. Inventively, it's called magnet cancel.

Point: Don't fireball camp