The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

well can we get some more opinions on the ratio? And move on to another dicussion like Game & Watch

Darthlegolas said:

well can we get some more opinions on the ratio? And move on to another dicussion like Game & Watch

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We discussed almost every character. Right now what's left is Fox, Sheik, and low tiers.

Btw, I'm going to say this right now. Fox outcamps Mario. If he can outcamp Falco (and he does) I think he can outcamp Mario. Unfortunately, it doesn't halt an approach and Fox doesn't have that solid approaches for when it's needed like if Fox is losing. 55:45 Mario or even sounds right to me.

Fox can't get a kill or create an opening without taking a huge risk most of the time. That is why the matchup is at least even. Mario is a fair bit better at creating openings and getting kills safely (B-throw is viable against Fox).

Vs Sheik is also very even...I've played several Sheik players who are overall better than me, so I know this matchup really well.

You both combo each other to mid percents, but Sheik does this a little better. Mario however gets the kill earlier and more easily most of the time, so it evens out. Edgeguarding is big on both sides, and Sheik's needles/F-air are not to be underestimated, while on the flipside, edgehogging (to stop her SideB), N-air, and FLUDD are all really good ways to edgeguard Sheik.

In general a lot of this matchup past mid percents seems to be baiting approaches and landing grabs on predicted shielding not to mention Jab poking. Whoever picks up on those patterns first will have the advantage on stage.

Sheik may have a DACUS, but people overlook (and haven't really discovered) Mario's Hyphen Smash, which also slides very far when timed right, and is a safer kill move. Just thought I would point that out.

Also, in general, keep an eye out for her Up-B. It's a very good surprise kill move that works like a spotdodge into a strong hit (due to its huge invulnerable duration). Just make sure you're aware of it, because good Sheik players will try to trap you into this for kills. It works best if you telegraph an approach or attempt to attack out of a juggle.

Also, fireballs > chain, just in case you didn't know.

Mario can up b out of Shiek's ftilt, but I think it only works torward the top of Shiek, right?

Save that for the Sheik discussion. Btw with Fox, um Usmash? It's an extremely good kill move. His smashes aren't bad either.

Inferno3044 said:

Save that for the Sheik discussion. Btw with Fox, um Usmash? It's an extremely good kill move. His smashes aren't bad either.

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Wanna do what we did for wolf's raito?
50:50/55:45 Mario

If not 55:45.

Inferno3044 said:

Save that for the Sheik discussion. Btw with Fox, um Usmash? It's an extremely good kill move. His smashes aren't bad either.

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The ways Fox sets up kill moves all involve taking a significant risk or baiting a spacing mistake. That is what holds him back.

His F-smash is pretty terrible, being rather slow, and extremely unsafe. His D-smash comes out with decent speed, but it's also a massively unsafe move with rather short range.

A2ZOMG said:

The ways Fox sets up kill moves all involve taking a significant risk or baiting a spacing mistake. That is what holds him back.

His F-smash is pretty terrible, being rather slow, and extremely unsafe. His D-smash comes out with decent speed, but it's also a massively unsafe move with rather short range.

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His Fsmash is not that slow, but it is unsafe. I do understand that Fox's kill moves are unsafe and hinder him. You don't always need a set up for a kill move. I remember killing a Falco out of phantasm because I spaced and Fsmash. Of course they are nice and very helpful and I understand that holds Fox back. I think it's 55:45 Mario due to Mario having safer options, better edgeguarding/gimping, able to combo with easily, and having some good, fast, high priority moves. The reason that I don't think its more is because Fox is one of the campiest players in the game (able to outcamp Falco), very fast movement speed, and can combo us as well. It's pretty momentum based but Mario can hold it more, especially if Fox is offstage.

How is waiting for a punish detrimental to Fox's kill ability? He has the time and luxury to be able to wait... Mario may be somewhat better in killing, but I don't see that much of a difference...

Also Fsmash should never be used upfront. We bait with Bair, then come down with Fsmash if you come near. Fox's approaches are never direct, because it's true they aren't reliable, so we bait then punish. I don't see how taking an indirect approach to fighting is any worse than fighting directly... it just takes patience and quick reactions (which is easier to accomplish with a quicker character).

If you guys wanna go 55:45 Mario I can see it, but I honestly believe its closer to 50:50...

Thanks for the discussion guys!

50/50 I guess. That seems about the win ratio between my Mario and TonyGuacamole's Fox anyway lmao.

Fox's approaches seem reliable to me, in this match-up. Doesn't your d-air outpriotize everything we have? Other then an up B, but if you use you short-hop -> d-air, we don't have time to react? And Lasers =P.

I'd go 55:45 Fox, but most are leaning towards a neutral.

pretty sure uptilt and upsmash go through foxes dair.

I don't think uptilt does, but upsmash for sure. It's pretty punishable though, so against Fox I wouldn't try and rely on it.

And A2Z, I've played Tony's Fox, and being a Fox main, I can say it's not that advanced... He still maintains his overall good strategies and uses Fox's speed to take advantage of them, but he doesn't study any of his characters well enough to know exactly what he should and shouldn't do. He's a great player, just not an excellent Fox. He's only got the basics...

When did you last play him?

His only real flaw is he gets greedy for the shinespike from what I can tell.

I played him like, 1 month ago. It's not that he's bad, it's just he's not that excellent. He doesn't know half of Fox's AT's, techs, and combos...

hmmm...so guys we need ratios^^
i would say 50:50 arguable 55:45 mario

IMO I think it is 50:50 arguably 55:45 Mario's favor. My reasoning is that you tend to let your meta game approaches to a match dictate the definitive match up a little too much. In summary, Mario has a cape and is slower being the real problem. If Fox was slower then we would be able to react better...So tip would be become better at reading and create invisible bubbles of spacing because we out range him. Close call but, really depends on the individual players 50:50 seems good. Basic lvl Fox has advantage though. I play Mario in Florida.

manofgames4555 said:

IMO I think it is 50:50 arguably 55:45 Mario's favor. My reasoning is that you tend to let your meta game approaches to a match dictate the definitive match up a little too much. In summary, Mario has a cape and is slower being the real problem. If Fox was slower then we would be able to react better...So tip would be become better at reading and create invisible bubbles of spacing because we out range him. Close call but, really depends on the individual players 50:50 seems good. Basic lvl Fox has advantage though. I play Mario in Florida.

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Thank you! I completely agree.

I'm just gonna put even since that is what is what it seems like. I guess this MU is over. Let's move on.

Who else? Ganon, C.Falcon, Yoshi, or Sheik?

I vote Yoshi.

I also vote Yoshi.

Yoshi gets my vote.

since i got hardly ***** from slice and sylph....yoshi gets my vote^^

yea yoshi too good yoshi's are hard to come by anyways.

Yoshi always seemed even matchup for Mario, the 2 main disadvantages are that due to Yoshi's flutter jump we wil rarely be edgeguarding him. And that his d-air is gimp us perfectly fine without any trouble mostly.

Now we can use Cape usefully to counter approach and aerials can help us combo (im sure if he flutter jumps out on a flat stage or maybe YI, we can find ways to punish).

To be honest i dont have muxh experience, i dont play much Yoshis but im going with 50:50

Okay, I actually played this matchup in low tiers. I believe I played ItsWillYo, who is decent enough. I've also had a ton of experience against Enochuout's Yoshi, and he's pretty kick*** with Falco and Yoshi.

This matchup is 6/4 Mario.

Mario outcamps, outpressures, and outKOs Yoshi. It's as simple as that. Know your options and his options, and you just outclass him. Yeah, he does have some stupid range on his U-air and B-air, but it's nothing serious considering that you'll trade hits with him and outdamage him if you attack at the same time when he uses B-air and his U-air is very easy to avoid.

Also, provided you don't get baited by his pivot grab, pressure his shield as much as possible. Yoshi's shield drop time is 17 frames, and his shieldgrab is exactly the same speed, and he cannot jump out of shield. If you force him to shield, his only options are to spotdodge or roll. If he tries to shieldgrab, you can just Jab or grab him before his grab comes out if you just Jab pressure him.

The only way Yoshi can get a kill is by predicting a mistake. Either you will use a laggy attack on his spotdodge and he'll D-smash at like 160%, or at more like 120% he will try to bait you into his F-smash leanback (assuming his F-smash of course is fresh). His U-air can be a good kill move, but it's easy to avoid. His N-air can also kill at really high percents when fresh. His Down-B has decent knockback, but should NEVER be hitting you. So yeah, basically he can't kill without getting really lucky. Because of this, he's really easy to bait into your own F-smash when he needs to get a kill. Saving Up-smash until like 134% is also a good strategy, but generally speaking, as long as you play carefully, you will have MANY MANY more opportunities to land kill moves than he can, and your kill moves are significantly stronger than his (most importantly, Up-smash and D-smash will kill him earlier, and are easier for Mario to land).

Caping his Egg toss is obvious...and you can spam fireballs faster than he can Egg toss. You can try to edgehog -> edgeguard if he tries "planking" with egg tosses. Caping his midair jump while he recovers works.

Anyhow this matchup is just mainly really annoying since Yoshi's strategy is camping and runaways, and he can't set up kill moves or apply them viably in many situations, and he can't deal with direct pressure either. Keep a cool head, pressure him when you get the opportunity, and take advantage of his inability to kill.

Also remember that Yoshi's shield is garbage and he can't do much out of it (can he shieldgrab?) That puts Yoshi back a lot and is the big reason why he is low tier. Yoshi is surprisingly heavy though so it might take some time to kill him. Fireballs **** Yoshi so hard. Let's see what it does:

breaks all of yoshi's grab game
beats egg tossing though yoshi can egg toss from farther away
can clip yoshi's double jump if he does an attack
shuts down a good bit of yoshi's ground game

Really, Yoshi can't get past your camping well. You can do very well with fireballs and bair. Our bair > Yoshi's bair, so it stops that approach, which I believe is one of Yoshi's better approaches. Gimping might be a bit difficult, but edgeguarding is possible. You probably will not gimp a good Yoshi. I believe he has the best aerial mobility in the game. He is pretty easy to combo. Yoshi's main kill moves are Dsmash, Fsmash, and Uair I believe. I believe Fsmash will kill at around 120-130% fresh. Basically, his kill power is really bad.

60:40 or 65:35 Mario.

Don't fall for pivot grabs or grab releases.

his nair is like combo breaker.

55:45 mario

A2ZOMG said:

Okay, I actually played this matchup in low tiers. I believe I played ItsWillYo, who is decent enough. I've also had a ton of experience against Enochuout's Yoshi, and he's pretty kick*** with Falco and Yoshi.

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Never heard of 'em. Any vids?

This matchup is 6/4 Mario.

Mario outcamps, outpressures, and outKOs Yoshi. It's as simple as that. Know your options and his options, and you just outclass him. Yeah, he does have some stupid range on his U-air and B-air, but it's nothing serious considering that you'll trade hits with him and outdamage him if you attack at the same time when he uses B-air and his U-air is very easy to avoid.

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Mario definitely beats Yoshi at mid range. Fireballs are a pain, and so is Mario's priority. Fireballs can just be bair swatted away or jabbed away, no need to shield. Mario's Bair is the main problem when trying to get in. However, once we get past the wall, we can keep up with Mario to put on pressure and damage.

Also, you really underestimate uair. With Yoshi's air speed, all we have to do is follow you from below and wait for you to do something, then punish it. It's got good range, power, and speed. It's not as easy for you to avoid as you think.

Also, provided you don't get baited by his pivot grab, pressure his shield as much as possible. Yoshi's shield drop time is 17 frames, and his shieldgrab is exactly the same speed, and he cannot jump out of shield. If you force him to shield, his only options are to spotdodge or roll. If he tries to shieldgrab, you can just Jab or grab him before his grab comes out if you just Jab pressure him.

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Yoshi's shield is so bad. =,[

Anyways, we can time spot dodge > dsmash or jab to try and escape. If you use a stronger move we can roll towards the ledge and drop off to escape the shield, so jab pressuring is the best bet. We can time our spotdodge to let us escape, however. Looking at the frame data, the only thing that isn't punishable by a well timed spotdodge is your first jab. I'm not sure on Mario's jab canceling game, but first jabs are the only truly unpunishable thing.

The only way Yoshi can get a kill is by predicting a mistake. Either you will use a laggy attack on his spotdodge and he'll D-smash at like 160%, or at more like 120% he will try to bait you into his F-smash leanback (assuming his F-smash of course is fresh). His U-air can be a good kill move, but it's easy to avoid. His N-air can also kill at really high percents when fresh. His Down-B has decent knockback, but should NEVER be hitting you. So yeah, basically he can't kill without getting really lucky. Because of this, he's really easy to bait into your own F-smash when he needs to get a kill. Saving Up-smash until like 134% is also a good strategy, but generally speaking, as long as you play carefully, you will have MANY MANY more opportunities to land kill moves than he can, and your kill moves are significantly stronger than his (most importantly, Up-smash and D-smash will kill him earlier, and are easier for Mario to land).

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Yoshi can't kill well. =,[

Dsmash is a bad killer. Really bad. Fsmash is too slow to be of use, and it should ALWAYS be fresh, since we never use it much anyways. Uair is a good kill move. If we get you in the air above us at kill percents, it's a very large threat and it's very possible to hit you with it. It's not incredibly easy to avoid. If we ever grab you or find you off the stage/in the air, uair or nair are threats. Down-B can be used as a jab mix up, so if you shield our jab it can potentially hit. It's not too common. We shouldn't really be getting anxious for the kill. It just has to happen. Yoshi can't kill well so if we get anxious and actively try to land a kill move, we can be punished hard.

Mario does have an easier time killing than Yoshi does. =[

Caping his Egg toss is obvious...and you can spam fireballs faster than he can Egg toss. You can try to edgehog -> edgeguard if he tries "planking" with egg tosses. Caping his midair jump while he recovers works.

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The fireballs have less stun than Egg Toss(ET), and Eggs can be arced and angled to beat you in a direct spam war. We shouldn't really be camping this MU anyways. ECE(Egg planking) is risky depending on how close Mario is to the ledge. It's generally better to just find a way up.

If you ever cape a Yoshi out of his DJ, it's because he didn't air dodge right past you. =]

Anyhow this matchup is just mainly really annoying since Yoshi's strategy is camping and runaways, and he can't set up kill moves or apply them viably in many situations, and he can't deal with direct pressure either. Keep a cool head, pressure him when you get the opportunity, and take advantage of his inability to kill.

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The strategy isn't really to camp as it is to find an opening to get close to Mario and beat him from there. Mario just puts up a nice wall vs. Yoshi midrange and it's annoying to get past it. Once we're on Mario though, we can deal some pain. Having a Yoshi place you into the air is very bad. The inability to kill is such a pain. =[

Inferno3044 said:

Also remember that Yoshi's shield is garbage and he can't do much out of it (can he shieldgrab?) That puts Yoshi back a lot and is the big reason why he is low tier. Yoshi is surprisingly heavy though so it might take some time to kill him. Fireballs **** Yoshi so hard. Let's see what it does:

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Yoshi can shieldgrab. It's just really bad so we never do it.

breaks all of yoshi's grab game
beats egg tossing though yoshi can egg toss from farther away
can clip yoshi's double jump if he does an attack
shuts down a good bit of yoshi's ground game

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Most of this is true. I just want to say that if a Yoshi attacks into a fireball to get his DJ clipped, he's doing it really wrong. O.o

Really, Yoshi can't get past your camping well. You can do very well with fireballs and bair. Our bair > Yoshi's bair, so it stops that approach, which I believe is one of Yoshi's better approaches. Gimping might be a bit difficult, but edgeguarding is possible. You probably will not gimp a good Yoshi. I believe he has the best aerial mobility in the game. He is pretty easy to combo. Yoshi's main kill moves are Dsmash, Fsmash, and Uair I believe. I believe Fsmash will kill at around 120-130% fresh. Basically, his kill power is really bad.

60:40 or 65:35 Mario.

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Yeah, getting past the wall is a pain. You make it seem like we'll be clashing moves a lot when it's possible to get under Mario and usmash him or something. It's still hard, but Mario doesn't shut Yoshi down how you're saying. =P

Yay, Yoshi isn't thought of as easily gimped anymore! =D You're right, a good Yoshi won't get gimped unless he made a mistake. Yoshi is the fastest in the air. If only he had Wario's acceleration. =,[

Not so easy to combo. Nair can trade hits with many of your attacks to break us out of the combo. So can his jabs.

Yeah yeah, Yoshi can't kill. Stop bringing it up! >=[

hippiedude92 said:

Don't fall for pivot grabs or grab releases.

his nair is like combo breaker.

55:45 mario

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Fireballs break Yoshi's grab game.

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken many Yoshi's will air dodge during their second jump. Expect this.

It does break his grab game, but it shouldn't be ignored.

If it does break his grab game, then aggressive camping should be mario's main priority for the matchup. More like full hop fireballs until he messes up and mario goes into combo mode practically.

hippiedude92 said:

It does break his grab game, but it shouldn't be ignored.

If it does break his grab game, then aggressive camping should be mario's main priority for the matchup. More like full hop fireballs until he messes up and mario goes into combo mode practically.

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That's a good idea, though I still don't know how to fully do this. Yoshi has no answer to our bair (it's so good). The worst case scenario that will happen on our half is that it'll trade hits. You are right that his grab game is pretty good but it's not Oli's or D3's.

Inferno3044 said:

You are right that his grab game is pretty good but it's not Oli's or D3's.

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That's because Yoshi is Yoshi and not Oli or D3.

I dare you to go a match without getting pivot-grabbed nearly 20 times.

Once we get you into the air, it's really easy to keep pivot grabbing/dash grabbing you on landing. There's not much fireballs can do for you when we're under you.

It's not hard to do. Space conservatively, and camp him whenever he runs away, and you won't get pivot grabbed that much. He can't pivot grab once he runs out of space, and pressuring him at this point usually owns him. Pivot grabbing only works for punishing commitment to a bad approach.

Mario also is able to just Cape whenever he predicts a ground move to avoid it, and B reversal Fireballs are an underestimated defensive option. Mario really doesn't have trouble getting back to the ground if he knows his options.

i second with strakked lol, obv it isnt olis where he can combo with different pikiminz and hes not d3 where his backthrow is strongest damage throw in the game but yoshi is still yoshi, grab release, grab release sherigans, grabbing leads to mario into a terrible position, it's still pretty solid imo esp if your not careful which 90% of the mario's are lol.

hippiedude92 said:

i second with strakked lol, obv it isnt olis where he can combo with different pikiminz and hes not d3 where his backthrow is strongest damage throw in the game but yoshi is still yoshi, grab release, grab release sherigans, grabbing leads to mario into a terrible position, it's still pretty solid imo esp if your not careful which 90% of the mario's are lol.

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Simple answer: Don't be reckless. I do understand that we will get grabbed quite a few times. What I meant by he's not Oli or D3 is that I'm pretty sure his grab range isnt that good, he can't shield grab, and it can't kill easily like Oli's (100% with fat pikmin) or deal like 30% damage with one grab on certain characters like D3. He has a pretty good grab game. I will not deny that. He has a very good dash grab and pivot grab. Those other two characters can also camp and stop fireballs from messing up their grab game whether its throwing a pikmin (red would be best since it goes through) or waddle dee/waddle doo/gordo. It's not like he can kill from a grab release like Bowser can. Most importantly, I can live with myself for comparing characters because I just compared grab games.

lol the words and the different intrepretations of ppl on the interwebz are dumb

10anyoneagrees?