The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[vato_break]

just get around his eggz..that all he pretty much has imo

 

[Delta-cod]

Looks like I'm gonna be doing this alone. XD

Yoshi's grab game will be used more offensively rather than defensively in this MU, since Mario won't be approaching. Dash Grabs/Pivot Grabs to get you on landing will probably be the main use of Yoshi's Grab game in this MU. Once we get you above us, we can use grabs/usmash to keep you up there and tack on damage.

Eggs probably won't be used often in this MU simply because of the cape. Lol

 

[Inferno3044]

Looks like I'm gonna be doing this alone. XD

Yoshi's grab game will be used more offensively rather than defensively in this MU, since Mario won't be approaching. Dash Grabs/Pivot Grabs to get you on landing will probably be the main use of Yoshi's Grab game in this MU. Once we get you above us, we can use grabs/usmash to keep you up there and tack on damage.

Eggs probably won't be used often in this MU simply because of the cape. Lol

I do gotta give Yoshi some credit for his grab for you saying it can be used offensively. Most good grab games are based on defense grabs techniques. Also, the fact that you won't use eggs is a big advantage. Eggs can be a pain and having a cape to stop it is a lot of help.

I still think its 60:40 or 65:35 Mario depending on stage. Japes must be really bad for Yoshi. Too bad it's not allowed in NJ.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd say Japes could be one of Yoshi's better stages.

The water can save him and let him abuse Egg Braking if he's on the right side (similar to G&W's Bucket Braking, but usually infinitely worse since it puts him in free fall)

Also, if Green Greens is allowed, immediately ban that stage. That is his best stage by far, and the one stage where he can outcamp virtually everyone, and where his sub-par recovery is no longer an issue.

 

[Delta-cod]

I do gotta give Yoshi some credit for his grab for you saying it can be used offensively. Most good grab games are based on defense grabs techniques. Also, the fact that you won't use eggs is a big advantage. Eggs can be a pain and having a cape to stop it is a lot of help.

I still think its 60:40 or 65:35 Mario depending on stage. Japes must be really bad for Yoshi. Too bad it's not allowed in NJ.

Eggs can still be used, we just can't camp with them. We can use them off the stage to assist our recovery or to heckle you when you're in the air. We're just not going to be winning at mid range neutral position with them.

I'd say Japes could be one of Yoshi's better stages.

The water can save him and let him abuse Egg Braking if he's on the right side (similar to G&W's Bucket Braking, but usually infinitely worse since it puts him in free fall)

Also, if Green Greens is allowed, immediately ban that stage. That is his best stage by far, and the one stage where he can outcamp virtually everyone, and where his sub-par recovery is no longer an issue.

Yoshi can live longer on Japes, but it's also bad in that it takes much longer to kill with him. We usually kill vertically and the massively high ceiling is a major pain.

I don't know much about Green Greens, never play on it much, since it's usually not legal. At least in my area.

Yoshi's recovery is not sub par. Highest air speed + massive DJ + Eggs for defense/extra boost. Very few characters can actually gimp Yoshi, and those are probably the characters that can gimp everyone, like MK.

 

[Metatitan]

Delta you don't know anything. Yoshi's recovery is bad, if they know how to read it.

 

[Veggi]

You disputed his opinion and gave no reasoning for it.

 

[hippiedude92]

hes either being a troll, internet sarcasm, or knows him, or is really meaning the truth, or all of the above.

Lol.

lt's just highly underrestimated/rated imo.

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta you don't know anything. Yoshi's recovery is bad, if they know how to read it.

Yay reasoning. Now stop following me Meta. Unless you actually wanna help. >_>''

I also fail to see how a recovery that gets you safely back to the stage nearly every time against the majority of characters is bad. The only character I've ever had trouble getting back against was MK (but who doesn't?).

 

[Metatitan]

You disputed his opinion and gave no reasoning for it.

hes either being a troll, internet sarcasm, or knows him, or is really meaning the truth, or all of the above.

Lol.

lt's just highly underrestimated/rated imo.

I know/troll him.

Yoshi's recovery consists of two parts (yes I used to main him), egg toss and double jump. A smart yoshi will never recover with double jump unless they need to. While he has two recovering options, they're both easily readable if you actually know the matchup.

Yoshi cannot grab the ledge with his double jump, he has to either ground pound into it (which is risky and vulnerable to being hit at first) or he has to egg toss it (in which case hes on the ledge and can only egg toss at you from the ledge, jump from the ledge, or double jump from the ledge with his back to you as his safe options of course).

And here's where the fun begins :D

Yoshi recovers from below:
Pretty risky scenario, you knock out his double jump and hes ****ed. I think you guys can even cape it, i don't know nor do I care, im just stating yoshi's flaws in his recovery. I usually knock it out of him with peach's Nair, at the worst im trading hits with an egg toss and I have the % advantage in that trade off. Because of this, yoshi's will most likely airdodge as they double jump which can be baited if you pretend to go after him and can be punished horribly (I get so many with peach's up smash this way).

Yoshi recovers from above:
Reading time! Yoshi's usually for some reason try to land in the middle of the stage (mabey because its a neutral zone and its not close enough to a ledge, giving them room to pivot grab), and because of his low priority moves he'll most likely airdodge, which you can read and punish.

Have fun :D!

(this was just a brief summary btw)

EDIT- I don't follow you, I just glanced at the most recent post on the character boards and your name stuck out, so i decided to have some fun :D

 

[A2ZOMG]

A lot of characters can actually harass Yoshi offstage...he doesn't have much to defend himself offstage, and his recovery is rather one-tracked. His edge game is also pretty weak. That's where his recovery is subpar.

Mario's recovery is also pretty one-tracked, but he has more options to defend himself on descent, and he does have one of the better edgestalling strategies in this game, so I'd say Mario is significantly less punishable offstage (this is factoring that both players know how to DI).

 

[Inferno3044]

You can cape his DJ, but it might not gimp him due to his amazing aerial mobility. Btw what ratio do we agree on?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I say 6/4 Mario. That's the way I see it from my tournament experience.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Going with 6.5/3.5 Mario

 

[:mad:]

65:35? In our favour? Against someone that isn't Ganondorf?

My god, do people really underestimate Yoshi this badly?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Yeah I don't think it's 65/35, but then again I haven't played against many Yoshis or know the matchup.

 

[BoTastic!]

65:35 is too much. More like 60:40.

 

[Delta-cod]

65:35? In our favour? Against someone that isn't Ganondorf?

My god, do people really underestimate Yoshi this badly?

Yes.

Anyways, Yoshi really doesn't have any recovery issues against Mario. You can't really just cape him because all he needs to do is AD through you, and I don't believe Mario is fast enough to keep up with Yoshi's air speed. We can also recover high and ward you off with a bair or an Egg Lay as we're falling.

I'll WiFi (lol) anyone if they want to play. Or Inferno can just come play. No johns, you live 20 minutes away tops. And you also probably have off from school this Thrusday or Friday. I do. :D

 

[A2ZOMG]

As I was saying, it's 6/4 Mario.

That's honestly pretty solidly in Mario's favor. Yeah, he has a few annoying attacks that can frustrate you, but ultimately speaking, he doesn't have nearly as consistent tools to keep up in terms of dealing with pressure, zoning, and scoring KOs reliably.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'll say 50/50 on this matchup. Yoshi can outcamp Mario w/ eggs and Mario's fireballs don't go that long. A smart Yoshi player should know how to egg-plank and do a lot of B-air to fight off Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi doesn't outcamp Mario. Powershield/Cape his Eggs at long range, get into midrange and start camping him since your fireballs are more spammable. His B-air has low priority, so you'll trade hits with it and outdamage him, and his Egg Planking can be punished with well-timed edgehogs -> edgeguards.

 

[Delta-cod]

What A2Z said.

Not that we should really be approaching with bair. Maybe if we time it as you're throwing the fireball, since Bair swats them away. Not sure on how fast they are, though.

 

[Pierce7d]

Mario beats Yoshi. Yoshi has the weight advantage, but Mario isn't exactly light. Mario has overall better approaches, and can do all sorts of stuff to Yoshi, since blocking with Yoshi is so fail, and Yoshi's OOS options are just miserable. I know Yoshi's probably hear that about every MU, but Mario has particularly good abilities to pressure a shield at close range. Mario can also play a safe, slow camp game making it very hard for Yoshi to land a kill.

I do think it's 65-35 Mario's favor.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario beats Yoshi. Yoshi has the weight advantage, but Mario isn't exactly light. Mario has overall better approaches, and can do all sorts of stuff to Yoshi, since blocking with Yoshi is so fail, and Yoshi's OOS options are just miserable. I know Yoshi's probably hear that about every MU, but Mario has particularly good abilities to pressure a shield at close range. Mario can also play a safe, slow camp game making it very hard for Yoshi to land a kill.

I do think it's 65-35 Mario's favor.

I agree with his facts. Honestly it just seems to me that we (the Mario boards) try not to make other characters seem like they will lose by a significant amount, even if we do have a clear advantage. To me, a clear advantage means at least 60:40, but I do respect all opinions on ratios.

On a much more important note, PIERCE IS A BACKROOM MEMBER!!!!!!!!

 

[Metatitan]

People don't underestimate yoshi, they overestimate him.

 

[6Mizu]

All is know is DI b-air so it will not chain same with u-air

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

lol I don't underestimating Yoshi. I don't like karma if I get beat by a pro Yoshi player w/ Mario O_O...

 

[Inferno3044]

lol I don't underestimating Yoshi. I don't like karma if I get beat by a pro Yoshi player w/ Mario O_O...

Welcome to every Marth that has lost to Boss. It happens sometimes. It just means you were outplayed. Don't take "well this good player beat this good other player and had a disadvantage." It could've been a lucky break or that guy is legit with that character. Best example I can think of: Reflex. 7th at SNES with a low tier. He just outplayed people.

Or Inferno can just come play. No johns, you live 20 minutes away tops. And you also probably have off from school this Thrusday or Friday. I do. :D

Hate to say it, but I have johns. SAT johns. If you go to the tourney in Denville on Sunday, then we can play. If not, then we should set a time.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hate to say it, but I have johns. SAT johns. If you go to the tourney in Denville on Sunday, then we can play. If not, then we should set a time.

Denville is mad far, and I can't drive yet, so unless I can get my mom to let me get a ride from someone over the internet I really can't go. XD

Anyways, Mario beats Yoshi, I'd probably put it at 60:40, I don't think it's as bad as 65:35. It'd be even if we had an actual OoS game, but we don't. I looked at Mario's frame data, and it's possible to spotdodge to escape any grounded attack except chained first jabs it looks like. I wouldn't doubt that some aerials can put on constant pressure though. Mario doesn't even have to really approach since he can just wall us at midrange pretty much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When you did frame analysis, you were assuming that Mario was attacking on the same frame Yoshi spotdodged? That's pretty bad logic, because in actuality, there are significant discrepancies on that sort of timing depending on how well the opposing player can observe the spotdodge.

Even if Yoshi could jump out of shield or drop shield within 7 frames I'm pretty sure that Mario would have the advantage anyway since his frame data and KO power is simply better. Mario's shield pressure is also really good, and assuming Yoshi could do aerials out of shield or Up-smash (or drop shield Jab), Mario could still just Jab before his OOS options would come out anyway. Yoshi is probably most hindered by the lack of a respectable shieldgrab in general.

Mario's Jab cancel is also really good, and two Jabs lead into an unblockable D-smash followup. His B-throw has the potential to kill at really high percents, which is useful occasionally. His F-smash is also more powerful, and has greater range + priority, not to mention slightly less ending lag.

 

[Javon89]

I agree 6/4 Mario but arguable for 65/35.

 

[Delta-cod]

When you did frame analysis, you were assuming that Mario was attacking on the same frame Yoshi spotdodged? That's pretty bad logic, because in actuality, there are significant discrepancies on that sort of timing depending on how well the opposing player can observe the spotdodge.

Even if Yoshi could jump out of shield or drop shield within 7 frames I'm pretty sure that Mario would have the advantage anyway since his frame data and KO power is simply better. Mario's shield pressure is also really good, and assuming Yoshi could do aerials out of shield or Up-smash (or drop shield Jab), Mario could still just Jab before his OOS options would come out anyway. Yoshi is probably most hindered by the lack of a respectable shieldgrab in general.

Actually, I kind of did. The way we use our shield is to generally predict what's coming and spot dodge before hand, to sort of compensate. It's pretty bad overall, though. If Yoshi could jump OoS, he could have anything OoS. You could DR OoS, letting you perform a tilt, pivot grab, jab, anything. If only if only.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Assuming I D-air, then U-air/N-air your shield, you're not allowed to jump out of shield as a Jab buffered at this point will punish that regardless of which character you are.

 

[hadesblade]

Assuming I D-air, then U-air/N-air your shield, you're not allowed to jump out of shield as a Jab buffered at this point will punish that regardless of which character you are.

We could wait tell the jab is over before we shnair? And if were sheidling a dair instead of usmashing or running back to pivot grab while your falling on us. Anyway that's extremely situational. Also this is all theoretical, as yoshi doesn't have OoS.

Anyway... on to the real MU...

First off, I'm going to assume that most of you mario mains haven't played this matchup very much. You're talking about shield pressure on yoshi. We don't shield. It doesn't matter what you can do to us while were in a shield if we never put it up. There isn't anything mario can do that forces us to shield that other characters cannot. Sure he might be better once were in there, but we will just avoid our shield.

Anyway I haven't played too many marios offline, because vato didn't play me at AG </3, but wobble's has a legit mario as a secondary and for low tiers, and I've played it a few times. Anyway, the ONLY reason this MU is mario's advantage (though no where near 65:35)is the fireballs.

The only way Yoshi can get a kill is by predicting a mistake.

That's the only way ANYBODY can get a kill. You won't land any attack is your opponent plays completely flawless.

Either you will use a laggy attack on his spotdodge and he'll D-smash at like 160%, or at more like 120% he will try to bait you into his F-smash leanback (assuming his F-smash of course is fresh). His U-air can be a good kill move, but it's easy to avoid. His N-air can also kill at really high percents when fresh. His Down-B has decent knockback, but should NEVER be hitting you. So yeah, basically he can't kill without getting really lucky. Because of this, he's really easy to bait into your own F-smash when he needs to get a kill. Saving Up-smash until like 134% is also a good strategy, but generally speaking, as long as you play carefully, you will have MANY MANY more opportunities to land kill moves than he can, and your kill moves are significantly stronger than his (most importantly, Up-smash and D-smash will kill him earlier, and are easier for Mario to land).

So much of this is wrong its not even funny. Dsmash is NOT a kill move, if we spotdodge a laggy attack 130+ you WILL die. We won't dsmash. We will yoshi bomb. Fsmash is slow, and unreliable. And it kills way before 120%. uair has a lot of range. You know all those times your failling on us and then you either cape or just go straight to a dair? uair goes right through both. It's also frame 5.

Mario's dsmash is not strong. Unless we miss the DI it shouldn't kill us before 150%. And do ellaborate on how your usmash is easier to land than ours?

Another thing that helps with killing is edgeguarding. Yoshi has a pretty easy time edgeguarding mario. we can bair/dair you offstage without having to worry about punishment. The worst you can do is cape our bair and push up back towards the stage.

You aren't going to edgeguard us unless we make a mistake. Mario's bad airspeed means we can just DJAD past you. EDIT: it's not that mario's air speed is bad it's just in comparison to yoshi's...

Caping his Egg toss is obvious...and you can spam fireballs faster than he can Egg toss. You can try to edgehog -> edgeguard if he tries "planking" with egg tosses. Caping his midair jump while he recovers works.

Egg "planking" as most people seem to call it now, isn't nearly as useful as it used to be. Most chars can just run off and bair between the egg tosses.

That's a good idea, though I still don't know how to fully do this. Yoshi has no answer to our bair (it's so good). The worst case scenario that will happen on our half is that it'll trade hits. You are right that his grab game is pretty good but it's not Oli's or D3's.

Both our usmash and our pivot grab will go right through your bair. Also with our air speed we can move out of range of a bair and easily punish with a bair of our own. Or just airdodge through and nair/uair.

55:45 mario

 

[A2ZOMG]

First off, I'm going to assume that most of you mario mains haven't played this matchup very much. You're talking about shield pressure on yoshi. We don't shield. It doesn't matter what you can do to us while were in a shield if we never put it up. There isn't anything mario can do that forces us to shield that other characters cannot. Sure he might be better once were in there, but we will just avoid our shield.

It's really predictable that Yoshi will do two things. He will either spotdodge, or run away. If he shields, he's screwed. He's still screwed defensively anyway.

I've played this matchup quite a bit in fact against Enochuout and ItsWillYo. I know what I'm talking about.

That's the only way ANYBODY can get a kill. You won't land any attack is your opponent plays completely flawless.

Mario can Jab cancel into Down-Smash (two Jabs into D-smash is unblockable), and his Up-smash is really good out of shield. His F-smash is superior to Yoshi's in every way, and actually does outrange Ike's F-smash.

So much of this is wrong its not even funny. Dsmash is NOT a kill move, if we spotdodge a laggy attack 130+ you WILL die. We won't dsmash. We will yoshi bomb. Fsmash is slow, and unreliable. And it kills way before 120%. uair has a lot of range. You know all those times your failling on us and then you either cape or just go straight to a dair? uair goes right through both. It's also frame 5.

Down-B gets airdodged on reaction, so it's not viable. U-air is still extremely easy to avoid by simply waiting for him to jump and then fastfalling an airdodge.

Mario's dsmash is not strong. Unless we miss the DI it shouldn't kill us before 150%. And do ellaborate on how your usmash is easier to land than ours?

Mario's Hyphen Smash when timed correctly does in fact slide over 1/3 of FD, and it's faster, and more viable out of shield. Much better attack in every way, especially since it is more powerful.

Another thing that helps with killing is edgeguarding. Yoshi has a pretty easy time edgeguarding mario. we can bair/dair you offstage without having to worry about punishment. The worst you can do is cape our bair and push up back towards the stage.

Assuming Mario DIs, you will not be edgeguarding him this way. His Fireballs and cape stalling will prevent this.

You aren't going to edgeguard us unless we make a mistake. Mario's bad airspeed means we can just DJAD past you. EDIT: it's not that mario's air speed is bad it's just in comparison to yoshi's...

Yoshi is really predictable in that he will airdodge. All I have to do is bait the airdodge and punish his landing to edgeguard him, and that's sufficient usually to score a kill at high percents.

Both our usmash and our pivot grab will go right through your bair. Also with our air speed we can move out of range of a bair and easily punish with a bair of our own. Or just airdodge through and nair/uair.

A smart Mario main won't just randomly B-air into pivot grab. U-smash will get punished by Cape stalling. Your argument is under the assumption he commits to bad approaches. Mario shouldn't need to make risky approaches due to his ability to outcamp Yoshi, and furthermore, you underestimate his mixup options

Mario's Up-smash and D-smash and F-smash all kill earlier, and have better applications too.

6/4 Mario. Yoshi has very few advantages in terms of available tools while has his usual defensive failures, and Mario is better at scoring the KO.

 

[hadesblade]

It's really predictable that Yoshi will do two things. He will either spotdodge, or run away. If he shields, he's screwed. He's still screwed defensively anyway.

I've played this matchup quite a bit in fact against Enochuout and ItsWillYo. I know what I'm talking about.

I've never of heard either of those players. Apparently delta hasn't either. Do you have any videos for either of them?

Mario can Jab cancel into Down-Smash (two Jabs into D-smash is unblockable), and his Up-smash is really good out of shield. His F-smash is superior to Yoshi's in every way, and actually does outrange Ike's F-smash.

Mario's shutter step fsmash has amazing range, there's no argueing it, however it's slow enough to sheild/spotdodge on reaction, and even yoshi can punish it oos. And dsmash still doesn't kill until really high %'s, and you can SDI the jabs. Usmash has a very small horrizontal hitbox. All 3 smashes have quiet a bit of ending lag to punish if you miss.

Down-B gets airdodged on reaction, so it's not viable. U-air is still extremely easy to avoid by simply waiting for him to jump and then fastfalling an airdodge.

I'm pretty sure you can only airdodge the second hit if you DI the first hit down, so it takes yoshi longer to fall on you. And you can't DI the first hit on reaction. Also if we read your air dodge we can easily punish it. Uair is even fast enough that if you do airdodge the uair into us, we can just buffer an nair, and hit you as you come out of the airdodge.

Mario's Hyphen Smash when timed correctly does in fact slide over 1/3 of FD, and it's faster, and more viable out of shield. Much better attack in every way, especially since it is more powerful.

Mario's usmash may be slightly stronger than yoshi's, but the weight different more than covers it. You won't get to use it oos on an aerial yoshi because we should be egg laying your sheild. Also I'm interested in your hyphen smash now. Do you have a video on it? I've never had it used on me in a match, atleast not with nearly that much slide.

Assuming Mario DIs, you will not be edgeguarding him this way. His Fireballs and cape stalling will prevent this.

Yoshi can easily use his heavy armor to tank any fire balls you throw at him, then nair you off the side, or uair you from below, and then just egg toss back to the stage.

Yoshi is really predictable in that he will airdodge. All I have to do is bait the airdodge and punish his landing to edgeguard him, and that's sufficient usually to score a kill at high percents.

If the yoshi DI's decently, he will recover high, due to his air speed alone. Though when he does recover low, if you are good at baiting, and he doesn't just egg toss to the ledge you're right you can punish his airdodge. Shouldn't be happening more than once a match though

A smart Mario main won't just randomly B-air into pivot grab. U-smash will get punished by Cape stalling. Your argument is under the assumption he commits to bad approaches. Mario shouldn't need to make risky approaches due to his ability to outcamp Yoshi, and furthermore, you underestimate his mixup options

Cape stalling is easily punished with an uair if you get predictable with it, or we can even charge the usmash if we expect you to cape stall. A charged usmash hits frame 4 from release, so sometimes we can even get the usmash in when you try to bair, depending how early we slid under you. (lol charged smashes in competitive brawl, though it actually works here XD)

Mario's Up-smash and D-smash and F-smash all kill earlier, and have better applications too.

Yoshi's usmash has a lot better applications than marios,(bair and egg both combo into it at ko %'s) and we have uair, nair, down b, and edgeguarding to assist us, along with a weight difference. Mario shouldn't be outliving yoshi.

6/4 Mario. Yoshi has very few advantages in terms of available tools while has his usual defensive failures, and Mario is better at scoring the KO.

55:45, Yoshi outlives mario, has a better air and grab game, but marios fireballs do too much to keep it from being even/yoshi's advantage.

EDIT: and mario's stutter stepped fsmash has more range than ikes standing fsmash, not ike's stutter step vs marios or both their standing fsmashes.

 

[Metatitan]

Lol ItsWillYo mains diddy....

Btw hades its probly 60:40-65:35 mario. You have no experience in this matchup so you're just theorycrafting right now

 

[Delta-cod]

Anyway I haven't played too many marios offline, because vato didn't play me at AG </3, but wobble's has a legit mario as a secondary and for low tiers, and I've played it a few times. Anyway, the ONLY reason this MU is mario's advantage (though no where near 65:35)is the fireballs.

Lol ItsWillYo mains diddy....

Btw hades its probly 60:40-65:35 mario. You have no experience in this matchup so you're just theorycrafting right now

Lol Meta, I love your reading comprehension. <3

 

[hippiedude92]

yoshi will have to shield at least once in a while lol, he has a few options even if he does run away and/or pivot grabs, mario can still be safe and do a dair

 

[Delta-cod]

yoshi will have to shield at least once in a while lol, he has a few options even if he does run away and/or pivot grabs, mario can still be safe and do a dair

Generally, the only time I will shield is if I'm blocking a projectile at long range when there is no chance of being shield *****. Otherwise I usually SHAD through projectiles or swat them away with an attack.