The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

SKidd said:

Yoshi and Mario suck

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It's funny, because you're awake at this hour and posted here just to say that. With a Mario icon in your profile.

Delta-cod said:

So you can air dodge through Yoshi Bomb and Cape as you're hitting your landing/end of airdodge lag? Pretty sure that's not possible.

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Not quite. Before you think Mario is going to land and eat a punish, you have to be aware of when he's going to bait, which he does better than Yoshi in this matchup in case it wasn't already clear. Even if Mario doesn't have Marth's F-air to bat you away, he can alter his momentum. Even slight adjustments (especially on a small target like Mario) will make an important difference.

Not my point, it puts you with your back against the wall which is a bad stage position to be in. It limits your options to either retreating to the ledge or through me, which is good. Forced approaches are always good.

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Since when? Mario probably can feasibly react to most of Yoshi's actions in this position, and I don't see why he needs to spaz out with a punishable dodge. Chances are he isn't going to approach with grab which is telegraphed and punishable. So he probably wants to space some kind of attack. Which either might not be safe on block, or could be baited with F-smash for that matter, which isn't unreasonably out of the picture considering the massive range of that move. Any time Mario is on stage Yoshi has to respect his options, since a mistake on Yoshi's part is much more costly most of the time.

A2ZOMG said:

Not quite. Before you think Mario is going to land and eat a punish, you have to be aware of when he's going to bait, which he does better than Yoshi in this matchup in case it wasn't already clear. Even if Mario doesn't have Marth's F-air to bat you away, he can alter his momentum. Even slight adjustments (especially on a small target like Mario) will make an important difference.

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This is highly reliant on Yoshi's spacing from the ledge. If he's spacing correctly, a star should hit, or you'll be too far away to punish and it's a reset. Which isn't inherently bad.

Since when? Mario probably can feasibly react to most of Yoshi's actions in this position. Chances are he isn't going to approach with grab which is telegraphed and punishable. So he probably wants to space some kind of attack. Which either might not be safe on block, or could be baited with F-smash for that matter, which isn't unreasonably out of the picture considering the massive range of that move. Any time Mario is on stage Yoshi has to respect his options, since a mistake on Yoshi's part is much more costly most of the time.

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Or we can just wait. You always make it seem like Yoshi needs to be doing something. It's pretty humorous.

Technically nobody needs to do anything in any matchup. Move and block carefully and technically characters have the tools to not take damage. However that's not how matchups work. The point remains Mario pretty much does everything that matters significantly better in this matchup. If he needs to approach, he's not helpless and is very capable of getting in a hit, including one that leads to a KO. If Mario is camping and getting Yoshi to approach, the situation is in his favor by far with better walls for the matchup and better KO moves for punishing any mistakes or capitalizing on successful baits. When it comes to shenanigans for landing extra hits, Mario wins here too with superior safety and baits at midrange. We can go back to the argument that nobody has to do anything and then go back to the fact Mario is still significantly better at midrange, a situation where Yoshi doesn't have nearly as many answers. The only two situations where Yoshi really wins are at extreme long distance, where nobody ever gets hit unless it's against Falco, and basically at Yoshi's spaced Jab range, which is pretty weak in terms of potential damage output. Mario has a number of options that can score damage starting from a midrange approach, and should Yoshi need to go on the defensive, Mario can cover those options well, and should Yoshi need to try approaching to punish Mario, Mario has more damaging options to keep Yoshi out.

Given that Mario wins in more places that actually can result in him getting damage realistically, I still stand that it's a 65/35 matchup. I think Pierce wanted to say 7/3 last time anyhow. Yoshi can do a few random things that might frustrate Mario, but he's in no position to win at top level play in this matchup.

but delta cod almost beat m2k and lee martin


i stand by delta cod beats m2k and lee martin 7/3 mu.

good job.

A2ZOMG said:

You Jab a fireball and depending on the timing, you can be F-smashed absolutely for free. Fireball in fact actually does combo into F-smash timed correctly at any rate, so getting hit by it can result in a decent punish. That alone should be reason enough for you to be cautious.

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A2 must be godly. He can Fsmash in the air.

Depends on spacing anyway, and Caping against the stars at the right spacing works great.

A2ZOMG said:

Technically nobody needs to do anything in any matchup. Move and block carefully and technically characters have the tools to not take damage. However that's not how matchups work. The point remains Mario pretty much does everything that matters significantly better in this matchup. If he needs to approach, he's not helpless and is very capable of getting in a hit, including one that leads to a KO. If Mario is camping and getting Yoshi to approach, the situation is in his favor by far with better walls for the matchup and better KO moves for punishing any mistakes or capitalizing on successful baits. When it comes to shenanigans for landing extra hits, Mario wins here too with superior safety and baits at midrange. We can go back to the argument that nobody has to do anything and then go back to the fact Mario is still significantly better at midrange, a situation where Yoshi doesn't have nearly as many answers. The only two situations where Yoshi really wins are at extreme long distance, where nobody ever gets hit unless it's against Falco, and basically at Yoshi's spaced Jab range, which is pretty weak in terms of potential damage output. Mario has a number of options that can score damage starting from a midrange approach, and should Yoshi need to go on the defensive, Mario can cover those options well, and should Yoshi need to try approaching to punish Mario, Mario has more damaging options to keep Yoshi out.

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Most if not all of this is just wrong. Too lazy to shut down every point in this section. Just gonna remind you that Yoshi has the best aerial mobility in the game. So he can do some safe aerials. And he's also heavy so it'll take a while to kill him.

Given that Mario wins in more places that actually can result in him getting damage realistically, I still stand that it's a 65/35 matchup. I think Pierce wanted to say 7/3 last time anyhow. Yoshi can do a few random things that might frustrate Mario, but he's in no position to win at top level play in this matchup.

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Pierce thinks it's 6:4 Mario. Get *****.

hippiedude92 said:

but delta cod almost beat m2k and lee martin


i stand by delta cod beats m2k and lee martin 7/3 mu.

good job.

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Deltacod da bess.

A2ZOMG said:

Technically nobody needs to do anything in any matchup. Move and block carefully and technically characters have the tools to not take damage. However that's not how matchups work. The point remains Mario pretty much does everything that matters significantly better in this matchup. If he needs to approach, he's not helpless and is very capable of getting in a hit, including one that leads to a KO. If Mario is camping and getting Yoshi to approach, the situation is in his favor by far with better walls for the matchup and better KO moves for punishing any mistakes or capitalizing on successful baits. When it comes to shenanigans for landing extra hits, Mario wins here too with superior safety and baits at midrange. We can go back to the argument that nobody has to do anything and then go back to the fact Mario is still significantly better at midrange, a situation where Yoshi doesn't have nearly as many answers. The only two situations where Yoshi really wins are at extreme long distance, where nobody ever gets hit unless it's against Falco, and basically at Yoshi's spaced Jab range, which is pretty weak in terms of potential damage output. Mario has a number of options that can score damage starting from a midrange approach, and should Yoshi need to go on the defensive, Mario can cover those options well, and should Yoshi need to try approaching to punish Mario, Mario has more damaging options to keep Yoshi out.

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Holy wall of text, batman!

After my attempt at reading this clunky thing, all I can say is is that you have no idea how Yoshi can approach Mario when he's fireball camping. Like I've said numerous times, your only reason to use fireballs is to frame trap, not camp.

Given that Mario wins in more places that actually can result in him getting damage realistically, I still stand that it's a 65/35 matchup. I think Pierce wanted to say 7/3 last time anyhow. Yoshi can do a few random things that might frustrate Mario, but he's in no position to win at top level play in this matchup.

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I don't really care what Pierce has to say about this MU, as much as I'd take his word for a lot of things. That doesn't make you right. Mario doesn't win at midrange unless he's facing backwards, but if he is, he's certainly not going to throw a fireball at me, so he's predictable like that. The fact that you can only camp while facing forward, a position where you have very little aerial options, makes it that much less effective. Throwing a fireball just makes room to approach. In fact, if I were to be camped effectively by a Mario, he would have to be doing NOTHING and have the lead.

Inferno3044 said:

A2 must be godly. He can Fsmash in the air.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak&feature=search 0:49

=)

Most if not all of this is just wrong. Too lazy to shut down every point in this section. Just gonna remind you that Yoshi has the best aerial mobility in the game. So he can do some safe aerials. And he's also heavy so it'll take a while to kill him.

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Uh that's wrong. He has high horizontal top speed. Aside from that his mobility is average (actually his double jump sucks a lot in ways that matter) and his air game is definitely not that safe. And it still takes longer for Yoshi to kill Mario, so I don't get what you're trying to say about it taking long for Mario to kill Yoshi. It takes long to kill ANYONE who plays safe.

And lol at Yoshi approaching. I can either U-air out of shield if he does an aerial (something which I know virtually nobody does right), D-smash if he does something on the ground, dodge if I see a grab, or if he's going to bait, a fireball can punish that.

Ah, I figured it out now.

You only play Super Theorycraft Bros. Brawl.

"If you do this, then I beat it with this!"

You have no idea how to discuss a Match up.

Would any other Mario care to discuss this Match up?

And yet I actually used everything I mentioned in offline matches at some point. I'm stating stuff that I know works in actual practice from the few tournaments that I did actually manage to attend.

Delta-cod said:

Ah, I figured it out now.

You only play Super Theorycraft Bros. Brawl.

"If you do this, then I beat it with this!"

You have no idea how to discuss a Match up.

Would any other Mario care to discuss this Match up?

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6/4 mario

dont feel like discussing

just mm because offline shows wonders

do i win now???

I think that
Mario wins this MU
But Yoshi still has a good chance of winning

but mairo and boshi still both suck

Boshi is awesome. Don't hate.

Boshi is overrated.

A2ZOMG said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak&feature=search 0:49
=)

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That was sexy

Boshi is sexy

Don lik RPG

Papa madio 4 ever.

How do I fight ROB?

Get around his camping/projectiles and juggle the **** out of him. It's really easy to juggle him because he basically has a blind spot under him because dair and nair are so slow. Also don't try and gimp him because a good ROB won't get gimped. Edgeguarding is good though. You can also reflect lasers. I don't know the ROB matchup well but that's all I know.

I'm willing to give advice on any MU for anyone who wants help.

When I fight some Samus's they always firw There missils and when we try to get in close they do there Zair, and when I reflect there Missils they don't actaully go all the way back to her they collide with the missils she shoots, yes I now reflect the Charge ball projectile but still when your studying on Missils and Zair and stuff as she saves the stupid charge ball for later. witch just starts to make me nervous of when she will use it.

Also when I get passed the Missils they.............

can I get some advise for this matchup?

mars16 said:

When I fight some Samus's they always firw There missils and when we try to get in close they do there Zair, and when I reflect there Missils they don't actaully go all the way back to her they collide with the missils she shoots, yes I now reflect the Charge ball projectile but still when your studying on Missils and Zair and stuff as she saves the stupid charge ball for later. witch just starts to make me nervous of when she will use it.

Also when I get passed the Missils they.............

can I get some advise for this matchup?

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You can outcamp Samus. Mario has the versatility to get past Samus's projectiles and camp her with fireballs at the same time while Samus has to deal with fireballs. If you're afraid of charge shot just keep your distance and only cape what you have to. Like instead of caping the super missiles (the ones that go straight) you can jump over it and throw a fireball. If you are going to approach her then approach from the ground so you can run up and shield her zair. Try to dodge her spike and dtilt as well. Those and charge shot are basically her only ways of killing at low percents.

Let me know if I missed anything that's troubling you.

Nice,

Next time I fight a Pro Samus I'll now what to do

Mario wins vs Samus slightly, but it's a frustrating matchup since she has a lot of ways to keep you from playing your ideal spacing game. If you play a good Samus, they will NOT let you jump and fireball mindlessly, which can get Z-aired safely on reaction. Basically you have to be smart when jumping and do it in response to her other actions.

You have a good Jab game on her that combos into lots of stuff. Most Samus users will try to keep you out of close range either with their tilts or Up-Bing out of shield. D-throw isn't as good in this matchup due to her weight class and floatiness since she'll break out of your combos really easily. Learn when to fullhop U-air to counter her Bomb stalling (which works like your Cape stalling). You can edgeguard her pretty well since a well-timed Cape can get past her aerials, and a N-air can stop her from mindlessly tethering the ledge. Killing her is a matter of patience. All in all Samus is probably going to hit you more than you can hit her, but the options you have in this matchup can be better used to make significant punishes.

I honestly don't know what to do against ROB and as much as I talk to my fellow Mario's, I just don't see how this matchup is in our favor. It's probably my most played MU.

You can't camp traditionally and if a ROB is smart, you're beaten clearly from the front. I've played Mister Eric, Mr. E and Silhouette multiple times and I think this is one of Mario's hardest matchups. They're more annoying than Marth to me and I hate fighting against Marths. I think Xen will be able to back me up on the ROB thing, if I remember right, he's struggled against ROB too. (He lost to Sil last couple times they played.) ... Though Kirin did beat Sil at Columbus, too. I think he got him with Link, though.

As for Yoshi, it might be 55-45 Mario at best (50-50 otherwise) in my opinion. I've gotten to play a few MW Yoshi's (Nicalobe early) and MX quite a bit recently (who went 1-2 against Boss at Columbus) and they've all been really close matchups. I can't remember a time where it didn't go last stock, high percentage. Only thing I could possibly see as our advantage is (as usual) offstage gimps. Anticipate a low recovery, guess right and that's the lead for Mario. But again... the match goes back and forth and Yoshi typically has an easier time killing, so even that might not be the clincher.

I love U-Smash for kills in this matchup.

ROB isn't that bad. You can punish alot of things he does, camping isn't really an option. It's annoying if you get gimped at an early percent but that isn't that big of a deal. Usmash is pretty safe reliably from shield (from my experience). And Fsmash can be annoying to land just due to his Ftilt but it's not even really necessary. Juggling ROB is pretty easy too, so racking up damage isn't really an issue. I think it's moreof just a different style of playing than per usual, you should probably be up in ROB's face keeping attacks out and stuff...

I don't really lose to ROBs in tournament, or MMs. The only ROB to have taken money from me in a MM is Sil. But then I beat him in tournament a few months later so... I dunno.

MM Xero? $10
<beep3

I don't think it's ****, Juu. I have my hard personal MUs too (TL, etc.).
Im in class atm, but if i think about it, i will throw in what i think of this MU.

Juu do you have AIM? If you do, send me a hello and I'll help you out as much as I can.

XeroXen said:

ROB isn't that bad. You can punish alot of things he does, camping isn't really an option. It's annoying if you get gimped at an early percent but that isn't that big of a deal. Usmash is pretty safe reliably from shield (from my experience). And Fsmash can be annoying to land just due to his Ftilt but it's not even really necessary. Juggling ROB is pretty easy too, so racking up damage isn't really an issue. I think it's moreof just a different style of playing than per usual, you should probably be up in ROB's face keeping attacks out and stuff...

I don't really lose to ROBs in tournament, or MMs. The only ROB to have taken money from me in a MM is Sil. But then I beat him in tournament a few months later so... I dunno.

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POOLS!! nah JK you beat me, but it was d*mn close, last hit game 3. good sh*t.

Let's MM next tourney if we dont play in bracket.

I also dont see how this could possibly be considered Marios advantage, we outcamp you (Unlike Link, lol KirinBlaze 2 good), out space you, beat you offstage by alot, to a point its dangerous for you to edgeguard us.

It's not Mario's advantage. :/ It's even at best for us and I don't really see that either. But it's not really so dangerous for us to edgeguard you, but then again I try to do lots of crazy things.

We can definitely MM if we don't play in bracket.

Yeah IDK I see it in ROB's favor, but it's not a **** MU by any stretch of the word. IDK, seems manageable, but not gonna lie, it's one of the MUs I'll use Kirby or Wolf for unless it's MMs/friendlies.

And so it begins again.

I am glad to be apart of Sboards, so much stuff you can learn from fellow marios.

Inferno3044 said:

Juu do you have AIM? If you do, send me a hello and I'll help you out as much as I can.

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Added you. AIM is EnginoJuushichi. Not on it a ton, since I made it only for smash people.

vs ROB is kinda like vs Samus. It's very frustrating, and you have to play to your better punish options.

Mario is pretty good against ROB provided he gets in safely. He doesn't really fall for ROB's spotdodge tricks easily, and he's really good at option limiting ROB in juggles.

I really don't like playing against ROB just because it is very tedious to get in on him. Killing him isn't hard since you can juggle/edgetrap him easily, but actually getting in so that you can start your combos and pressure is difficult.

Can anyone help me with the Olimar MU?

Let me know if you are interested, since then we can talk on AIM or something.

Olimar is really fun. Mario outmaneuvers Olimar, Cape and D-air neutralize Olimar's Pikmin camping, and fireballs are more flexible projectiles. A combination of those three factors means Mario actually outcamps Olimar. You never have to approach Olimar if he chooses to camp. Get the lead with fireballs, and it's very hard for Olimar to get the lead back reliably if the stage has platforms. Generally speaking obviously avoid FD. Luigi's Mansion is also a hard stage to fight Olimar on, but I think it's usually banned, so you probably won't need to worry about it that much.

But that's not why the matchup is fun. This is actually a matchup where both characters benefit more from implementing well-spaced approaches, since they both have the tools to rack up damage fast and kill quickly when their approach works. And yes, I am implying that Olimar does better approaching in this matchup rather than camping. Likewise, Mario's fireballs besides being excellent in camping in this matchup, enable him to approach Olimar much more easily than virtually the entire cast in this game. With a fireball in front of you, you effectively eliminate Olimar's option of pivot grabbing, not to mention interfere with his options in general.

When Mario gets in close safely, the situation is in his favor. Period. Mario has the ability to aerial -> Jab Olimar's shield before he can shieldgrab between hits, and chances are Olimar has to block when Mario is rushing Olimar down since his aerials outprioritize most of Olimar's attacks. Mario's Jab combo pressures the hell out of Olimar due to Olimar's lack of reliable options to punish it, and due to its ability to lead to REALLY EASY Jab cancel combos on Olimar (remember, Jab2 is better than Jab1 for Jab cancels). Jab cancel -> D-smash, Grab, more Jabs, tilts, they all work on Olimar. Mario also does a fantastic job of juggling Olimar due to his mobility and speed and due to Olimar being rather floaty, so he can rack damage on Olimar incredibly fast. To top it off, it's actually very very easy for Mario to kill Olimar. Olimar is a lightweight, and when you consider that he falls easily to Mario's closeup pressure game, it's only a matter of reading when he crumbles under pressure, and all three Smashes can be easily landed when this moment happens to kill him at fairly low percents. And Mario also gimps Olimar very easily since a well-placed Cape beats all of Olimars options (including the whistle) and all but guarantees a gimp via edgehogging.

This is a very momentum oriented match. Whoever approaches successfully in this matchup usually gets massive reward. That part of the matchup makes this matchup feel very fast paced to me, since a smart move can usually result in the end of a stock very quickly. Despite this, this matchup usually will last a very long time since the matchup at its basics comes down to a spacing war; whoever can space their projectiles, grabs, and aerials better and work their way in for a good hit gets the advantage. That part of the matchup takes a good deal of patience for both players, but the intensity at which this matchup plays at is why I consider this one of Mario's most fun matchups.

To clarify, I believe Olimar wins 55/45. He does more damage than Mario and kills earlier. That's pretty much it. Mario however easily has the tools to dominate this matchup should he make the right choices as well. However, one thing I do believe is that Mario should never lose to an Olimar that focuses strictly on camping. Mario's options for countering Olimar's camping are too good, and he is able to extremely easily gain control of the matchup if Olimar constantly remains on the defensive. The trick to this matchup for both players is gaining control through well-timed offensive plays, since both characters have the tools to offensively control each other very very well.

I agree with the ratio. How it should be fought I don't. Had this discussion with him already and wouldn't like to repeat it.

Inferno, I highly suggest you get more videos of your Mario up. Specifically for this matchup. =)

I have no way of getting videos up. Also, I hate fighting Olimar, and even more with Mario. I normally use Luigi who significantly beats Olimar. He has always been my least favorite MU. The only thing I've ever been shown was when I faced M2K and Lee Martin at Apex on livestream. My abilities are only known to those who've played me.

Inb4Vatosaying "I beat you with high/top tiers"