Ground Movement

Sonic is the fastest character in the game on the ground. The whole point of this thread is for us to figure out how Sonic should be getting around when he's not spinning or jumping.

I. Basic movements
a. types
b. relationships between types (frame data included where useful)

II. ATs
c. Dash-Dance Pivot (DDP)
d. True-Pivot

III. Visuals
e. Video Applications
f. Original Sources

Magnitude = how far from neutral position the joystick is tilted.
Duration = how long the joystick is tilted a set amount.

I. Basic Movement
*Let me know if there are more common names for the terms.

a. Types

Walking-small magnitude, long duration
Character places one leg in front of the next. Once in motion increasing or decreasing the magnitude respectively adjusts how fast character walks. Virtually every move can be executed at any time. (Think of it in comparison to the others below.

Dash - medium to large magnitude, longest duration
Instead of stepping Sonic hunches over as his feet slide before he breaks into a dash. Once in motion increasing or decreasing the magnitude respectively does not change how fast the character dashs. Options are limited during a dash.

Dash Start - medium to large magnitude, shortest duration
The initial frames prior to a foxtrot or dash. If no additional action is inputted it will become one of those two. Multiple Dash Starts together form dash-dancing.

Pivot - small magnitude, shortest duration
An aborted walk facing backwards. Sonic starts to turnaround, then does a tiny hop as he continues to rotate till he faces the opposite direction.

Scoot (Pivot forward) - small magnitude, shortest duration
An aborted walk facing forward. Sonic steps with his front foot and slides his back foot as if he had a bad leg and no crutch to help make a full step. This motion appears to treat Sonic as if he were standing neutral.

Foxtrot - medium to large magnitude, short duration
An aborted Dash. After the initial startup animation for the Dash, Sonic proceeds to tuck his feet together and hops forward, landing in a grinding stance. Move options are very limited.

Dash Turn

Screech Stop

b. Movement Relationships

Dash Start:10 Frames
1-3: Initial animation. Pressing A here would do a smash attack.
4-7: Dash-Dancing (Starting back to back Dash Starts). I have been unable to record a dash dance where a fresh one occurs within the first 3 frames above.
11th: Foxtrot or Dash animation begins.

Screech Stop19 Frames
14*-19*: IASA frames

Shield Stop (after Dash Start) x Frames
1-4: Shield comes up
5-10: Shield begins to drop
6*: Can start standing grab (actual grab takes 5 (11), otherwise add 25* more for whiff)
14-x: IASA frames

Dash Turn (after Dash/screech stop)
Frames (20)
Next frame: dash begins
as of now at least one frame from Screech Stop is required.

Foxtrot (after Dash Start)
Frames (27)
6-22 : Begin a new Dash Start
-always ends at same time regardless of length traveled
-jump, dash attack, usmash or side B at anytime.

II. Outline ATs
Okay, this is all probably very frustrating and confusing to look at/read. Honestly, everything above is to completely cut movement down to it's core for us as competitive gamers.

1)If you didn't... scroll back back up and learn what magnitude and duration mean.

2)Review above any of the blue terms mentioned below.

c. Dash-Dance Pivot
Summary: You're combining Multiple dash starts (Dash-Dancing)with Foxtrots. The difference between Foxtrot one and two is that foxtrot two never actually happens. Before it becomes a foxtrot you foxtrot in the opposite direction.

dNES says: Foxtrot forward and watch for when Sonic is surfing/grinding. When you see that, do a simple dash-dance starting with the direction he's already facing.

What the audience will see:
Foxtrot>Dash-Dance>Foxtrot Opposite Direction

What's really happening
Result:Dash-Start>Foxtrot>Dash-Start>Dash-Start (reverse)>Foxtrot
1>2>3

d. True-Pivot
Summary: You're combining A Foxtrot, Multiple dash starts (Dash-Dancing)with a Pivot.

dNES says: The timing for a true-pivot is identical to the Dash Dance Pivot. Here's what makes it so difficult. Your final input has to be softer than a foxtrot.

What the audience will see:
Foxtrot>Half of Dash-Dance (same direction) > Pivot

What's really happening
Result:Dash-Start>Foxtrot>Dash-Start>Pivot
1>2>3

If you refer below to Phanna's explination topic... inputs 2 and 3 are what he calls a small pivot. This can be practiced on it's own first. Once you're able to do that, you simply put a foxtrot in front of it.

III. Instructional Video

e. Videos
-Learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fH89EJFSqY
-Sonic performing the two techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRp8VXdTyz0

f. Other Resources
Phana's Original Thread
Phanna's Pivots 1
Phanna's Pivots 2 (different version)
Pivots (w/ Sheik)

I remember my foxtrot and pivot moves thread.

lol

I actually did the opposite and 'threw out' the true pivot because I suck too much to pull it off :/

Though, it'd be sooo useful to know the total frame data comparing the side-B>shield method (side-B startup, shield, release, IASA) and the true pivot.


Also, as a random request, I'd like to also compare a shield-stopped run with a screech-stopped run

I'm happy (sorry Tenki) to hear that this is quite difficult. Like I said, I'm going to try to make a video that really shows everyone what it's about so that they can maybe be motivated enough to learn it and apply it.

If everyone comes back complaining that it's too difficult, then either A) we drop it... or B) even more of a reason to try and get it going.

Somewhere among these Sonic boards... i'm updating the guide to include much more factual based information, better visual aids, relevant discussion, frame data and so on. If dJ doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to answer those questions for you by tomorrow.

dNES, I don't know if you've kept up with it, but the homebrew guys have come up with a pause+frame advancer thing, so you can take 100% accurate frame data.

They call it 'debug mode' or something similar.

Just saying, if you have access to that stuff. I never got TP so I haven't even looked into alot of this homebrew stuff.

I actually started re-incorporating 'short dash' B-reversals as well as the ol' retreating stutterstep and B-reversal grab.

Silly ideas like dash back > cancel with B-reversal + instant shield > SH F-air forward, or something. It's fun to try to do lol.

Tenki said:

I never got TP

Click to expand...

You suck

I say...

Unless I see a step-by-step video on how to do all this business, I'm going to go insane what exactly figuring out what this all is, and obviously it will take a bit of finger dexterity since I never did play competitive Melee. I am a bit more of a visual learner and I still need to do how to do all this mumbo-jumbo Ats/tricks one button input at a time.

I'm not discrediting this, don't get me wrong, but if I could just learn how to do all these movements then I could be more than happy to find myself any applications if nobody else beats me to the punch.

I'm such a lost cause, playing probably the most technical character in what is suppose to be a basic game, I have problems...

I have my recording equipment again.

1)No johns.... but.... my gf and I co-own the wii which means no hackzors of any kind. Regardless of how safe they may be.

2)That's why I'm going to make a video Kinzer... to help us all out.

3)If people want to save me the hassle of using Virtual Dub that's cool. I still try and get that frame data for you. It's always so fun to watch the animations that you never see (such as when Sonic is in the middle of a turnaround or how goofy he looks as he starts to run.)

I'm having some difficulty in understanding the wording, honestly.

A video should be enough.

he gave you 3 in the OP lol

I promise I'll do my best to have something up tonight. Let me try to word this as simple as possible if you want to try it from now.

-You will do 3 inputs
-It's easiest if you attempt to do the shortest/softest foxtrot(s) possible
-I'm still not entirely sure what is happening between inputs 2 and 3, but if you do the 3rd input soft enough, it does not register as a foxtrot but instead a pivot.

Input 1: Foxtrot
Input 2: The window for this input is between when Sonic starts to lose almost all his speed to when he comes to a just before a complete stop. It's larger than it seems at first.
Input 3: AS SOON AS YOU DO INPUT 2 , input the opposite direction as if you were dash dancing.

Possible outcomes:
-Sonic screeches to a stop = your second input was too soon.
-Sonic does a sluggish run around = your second input didn't register.
-Sonic foxtrots again in the same direction = your third input didn't register.

Tips: Avoid clicking the joystick, soft, barely flicking is the key. If you want to do the full out pivot with no foxtrot on the tail end you need to be able to barely input the turn on the third input.

The video should help but I hope that helps too.

Just practice stringing foxtrots in the same direction.... once you get that... try inputting a third command in the opposite direction as if you wanted to dash dance in place.

Once you get that down you're over the first hurdle. Now you just have to be able to input that third command super fast and super soft so that it doesn't register as a full out foxtrot, but a simple turn.

@KID: This is true, but my video will show the exact timing since it can be rather frustrating to teach yourself from simply watching videos.

darkNES386 said:

I promise I'll do my best to have something up tonight. Let me try to word this as simple as possible if you want to try it from now.

-You will do 3 inputs
-It's easiest if you attempt to do the shortest/softest foxtrot(s) possible
-I'm still not entirely sure what is happening between inputs 2 and 3, but if you do the 3rd input soft enough, it does not register as a foxtrot but instead a pivot.

Input 1: Foxtrot
Input 2: The window for this input is between when Sonic starts to lose almost all his speed to when he comes to a just before a complete stop. It's larger than it seems at first.
Input 3: AS SOON AS YOU DO INPUT 2 , input the opposite direction as if you were dash dancing.

Possible outcomes:
-Sonic screeches to a stop = your second input was too soon.
-Sonic does a sluggish run around = your second input didn't register.
-Sonic foxtrots again in the same direction = your third input didn't register.

Tips: Avoid clicking the joystick, soft, barely flicking is the key. If you want to do the full out pivot with no foxtrot on the tail end you need to be able to barely input the turn on the third input.

The video should help but I hope that helps too.

Just practice stringing foxtrots in the same direction.... once you get that... try inputting a third command in the opposite direction as if you wanted to dash dance in place.

Once you get that down you're over the first hurdle. Now you just have to be able to input that third command super fast and super soft so that it doesn't register as a full out foxtrot, but a simple turn.

@KID: This is true, but my video will show the exact timing since it can be rather frustrating to teach yourself from simply watching videos.

Click to expand...

Ah okay, I know what it is now.

It's kinda like the DDP, but softer on the control stick, and overall faster if you can muster doing it consecutively.

darkNES386 said:

I promise I'll do my best to have something up tonight. Let me try to word this as simple as possible if you want to try it from now.

-You will do 3 inputs
-It's easiest if you attempt to do the shortest/softest foxtrot(s) possible
-I'm still not entirely sure what is happening between inputs 2 and 3, but if you do the 3rd input soft enough, it does not register as a foxtrot but instead a pivot.

Input 1: Foxtrot
Input 2: The window for this input is between when Sonic starts to lose almost all his speed to when he comes to a just before a complete stop. It's larger than it seems at first.
Input 3: AS SOON AS YOU DO INPUT 2 , input the opposite direction as if you were dash dancing.

Possible outcomes:
-Sonic screeches to a stop = your second input was too soon.
-Sonic does a sluggish run around = your second input didn't register.
-Sonic foxtrots again in the same direction = your third input didn't register.

Tips: Avoid clicking the joystick, soft, barely flicking is the key. If you want to do the full out pivot with no foxtrot on the tail end you need to be able to barely input the turn on the third input.

The video should help but I hope that helps too.

Just practice stringing foxtrots in the same direction.... once you get that... try inputting a third command in the opposite direction as if you wanted to dash dance in place.

Once you get that down you're over the first hurdle. Now you just have to be able to input that third command super fast and super soft so that it doesn't register as a full out foxtrot, but a simple turn.

@KID: This is true, but my video will show the exact timing since it can be rather frustrating to teach yourself from simply watching videos.

Click to expand...

What's the difference, as far as what Sonic can do, compared to foxtrot pivoting using the DD motion?

dash right>slide>[right> left](dash dance speed)

wait? i do this?
*reads thread*
ooooh....

I think there is a shortcut to the input that may make it easier, btu i wont say it until i've check it out myself later. im too tired to do so now.

I want to get to the point where i can spam this, but right now, it takes some focus to do it in a match, its not really second nature yet... Espy does it a lot too btw.

Update/Game

I've broken down the general mechanics of all character movement options on the ground involving just the joystick. Later this evening I will transfer all my notes up to now including frame data. See how well you can organize these.

I.Movement Options
i.Walk
ii.Run
II.Special Cases
i.Foxtrot
ii.Pivot (/Scoot - hint)

It's amazing how much better/easier it is to execute an AT when you understand all its components and how they interact

nice. this will help a tons.

Massive update to first post. Please, please, let me know if something is massive confusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPVzFI3II2I <@25 Seconds is what I'm calling the Basic Pivot AT. It's the familiar Foxtrot back and forth that I'm sure a few of you already know how to do.

I would like to hear back that you guys are actually able to perform this Basic Pivot.

darkNES386 said:

I. Basic Movement
Popular terminalogy is used when possible. For now all tests have been performed with Sonic. If you can't read all this, expect a video by next Monday. I want it to be legit = lots of testing befeore rash video clips. Remember that the following resources listed at the end of this post are available for now as visuals.
...
Run-around (after Run/skid stop)
Frames (20)
Next frame: run begins
as of now at least one frame from Skid Stop is required.

Click to expand...

1) Terminology ;o

2) The "Basic Pivot" - it's a nice name, but we've been calling it dash-dance pivot / DDP for a while. Your choice to override or change back to it.

3) Run-around and desert you

4) I think we usually called that the turnaround or just dash-pivot (following suit with SP's dash pivot cancel)

Yeah I"ll change that, is everything making sense though?

Changed it, also reworded directions for DDP. Any other questions?

btw, test screech stop too, please ;o

darkNES386 said:

I would like to hear back that you guys are actually able to perform this Basic Pivot.

Click to expand...

I've been able to consistently DDP for awhile now.

I always use it.

Almost as much as I use spinshot.

So this would be a combination of basic/dd pivots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEIp9yvbLcY

A little bit confused about the explanation in the OP still.
I can record stuff now that we've got a digital camera.
Not as nice as a capture card tho =/

I've slightly modified the DDP description and I've now included the True-Pivot. I'm going to put a few more snap shots up then I'll start work on the video. As always let me know if you disagree/see any issues problems with my descriptions.

Tenki said:

btw, test screech stop too, please ;o

Click to expand...

I did already and put up what I can so far. I had it listed as skid stop. I compared it to shield stopping too. What's the general term for shielding out of a dash? Should I say Dash instead of Run? I really don't want to conflict with exisiting terminalogy.

Camalange said:

Loving the OP revamp.

I've been meaning to incorporate this into my game more.

Click to expand...

Thanks

thecatinthehat said:

I've been able to consistently DDP for awhile now.

I always use it.

Almost as much as I use spinshot.

Click to expand...

Awesome, what about the True-Pivot?

Super_Sonic8677 said:

So this would be a combination of basic/dd pivots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEIp9yvbLcY

A little bit confused about the explanation in the OP still.
I can record stuff now that we've got a digital camera.
Not as nice as a capture card tho =/

Click to expand...

I tried to reword it. If it still doesn't make sense, check back for pictures or just wait until I get the video up (possibly tomorrow).

No I cant true-pivot. If I take it correctly, true pivot is the pivot that SamPanda discovered, correct?

I find that his way is too hard to be necessary.

Phanna's version (DDP) is alot easier, and generally accomplishes the same thing.

Though, sometimes, I find myself true-pivoting by accident. lol

thecatinthehat said:

No I cant true-pivot. If I take it correctly, true pivot is the pivot that SamPanda discovered, correct?

I find that his way is too hard to be necessary.

Phanna's version (DDP) is alot easier, and generally accomplishes the same thing.

Though, sometimes, I find myself true-pivoting by accident. lol

Click to expand...

SamuraiPanda's pivot cancel is actually something different. SP's pivot cancel is from a run. Phanna's True-Pivot is from the initial animation of a run, most applicable after a foxtrot since you can't foxtrot from a run.

Click here and go to @6:15
-Sonic's Pivot Cancel(Turnaround>Attack) is not very useful.
-What he explains is that the screech stop has IASA frames (and that Sonics may not have much use for it)... lolz since now and days everyone loves dash>screech stop>fsmash.

As I've said already, my video will clear everything up.

Here's the deal, after getting my hands back on the game again today after yesterday's frame analysis:

1)Sonic's screech stop has a good number of IASA frames to where it makes more sense to just do a run>screech stop>whatever you want

2)If you're going to do the DDP, you probably want to be a character with a fast and long distance foxtrot (like Sonic)

3)The True-Pivot is really only practical for distances shorter than what is required for Sonic to begin running. In other words, most peopel probably won't find this worth their time to learn. We can't really know how effective it will be unless people attempt to insert it into their gameplay.

Now I'm kind of sad

Question: Which character(s) have faster foxtrots than runs?

Question: Which character takes the longest to start a run?

darkNES386 said:

[1]

Click here and go to @6:15
-Sonic's Pivot Cancel(Turnaround>Attack) is not very useful.
-What he explains is that the screech stop has IASA frames (and that Sonics may not have much use for it)... lolz since now and days everyone loves dash>screech stop>fsmash.​

[2]

Here's the deal, after getting my hands back on the game again today after yesterday's frame analysis:

1)Sonic's screech stop has a good number of IASA frames to where it makes more sense to just do a run>screech stop>whatever you want

2)If you're going to do the DDP, you probably want to be a character with a fast and long distance foxtrot (like Sonic)

3)The True-Pivot is really only practical for distances shorter than what is required for Sonic to begin running. In other words, most peopel probably won't find this worth their time to learn. We can't really know how effective it will be unless people attempt to insert it into their gameplay.​

[3]

Question: Which character(s) have faster foxtrots than runs?

Question: Which character takes the longest to start a run?​

Click to expand...

[1] youtube tip: add #t=6m15s to link to 6:15.

;]

[2] So it's faster to screech stop> x instead of shield stop > x?

[3] I think a more prominent issue is how long it takes to be able to re-foxtrot. I think if you try to input a foxtrot too early with Sonic, it just restarts his dash as a semi-slow run instead of going to initial dash / foxtrot state, so you can't DDP nor true pivot from there.

thecatinthehat said:

No I cant true-pivot. If I take it correctly, true pivot is the pivot that SamPanda discovered, correct?

I find that his way is too hard to be necessary.

Phanna's version (DDP) is alot easier, and generally accomplishes the same thing.

Though, sometimes, I find myself true-pivoting by accident. lol

Click to expand...

Dash Pivot Cancel was the one Panda found, and it's basically doing a turnaround while in full-dash, then cancelling it with another action or a dash in your initial direction, etc. Falcon gets a pretty cool slide from his DPC if done right.

Phanna's pivot is more than the DDP (that leads to a foxtrot). It's being able to 'cancel' a DDP so you end up in standing state.

darkNES386 said:

I did already and put up what I can so far. I had it listed as skid stop. I compared it to shield stopping too. What's the general term for shielding out of a dash? Should I say Dash instead of Run? I really don't want to conflict with exisiting terminalogy.

Thanks

Click to expand...

Oh okay. I thought 'skid stop' was referring to the 'grind' animation x.x;

screech stop is far more common, and I've never heard it referred to as skid stop. Dash/run doesn't matter IMO.

To clarify, I wasn't happy with the frames I counted for shield cancel. The x is until I am confident with how long it takes to return to neutral. It's a lot to keep organized for just simple movement.

I have been meaning to add the grind (Sonic specific) and slow run (every character). Ironically enough I believe these two are related. The grind is tricking the system into believing that Sonic is walking, which is why increasing the tilt makes Sonic grind faster (further) while the slow run does a similar thing. A run starts, but it thinks it's still a walk so the tilt of the joystick determines how fast Sonic actually runs. Does that make sense? I'll organize it better once I analyze it more.

as for [3] I'll cover that better later tonight.

Nah.

The system doesn't think Sonic is walking at all, otherwise we'd be able to simply shieldcancel foxtrots.

The whole foxtrot/grind thing is part of Sonic's Initial Dash/Initial Dash Stop state.

In his initial dash stopping state (aka grind), Sonic slides, accelerating the whole time as he prepares to start running again. When you don't actually break past the limit to make him run, he just continually accelerates in his IDS/'grind' animation.

Unlike most characters, Sonic's initial dash stop is "slippery" (when it comes to actually stopping movement and starting to run again) and has longer duration (...does it?), while his fulldash stop has ungodly friction. Most characters have it reversed.

=/

I simply meant that when walking, moving the joystick forward accelerates the walk. It seems similar to making Sonic grind.

Still working on the "Small Pivot".
It seems a lot harder to do with Sonic than Marth. D=

I have left to rigth down (retreating left first), but I have a harder time pivoting to the right. It's really sensative and until I can get it down enough it's difficult to determine how useful it is.

Additionally, making videos has proven more difficult since I have not been able to find an effective video encoder program or a decent movie editor either. If anyone knows of anything I can acquire easily or until I find something myself I can't really make a useful video. I'm might just throw something together that shows me experimenting with it (like 0 editing).

The small pivot is faster than the screech stop and does not require you to start a run (which means you can do it sooner and make smaller spacement adjustments. Until someone can get it down effictively it will be difficult to determine just how useful it really is.

Yeah, it's a pain in the *** to learn
I always **** up and dash.

I can do it more left than right.

d. True-Pivot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plan B: Utilize the Dash-Dance Pivot to improve Sonic's meta game
Okay so here's the deal:
1) Dash-Dance Pivots are ridiculously easier to perform than True-Pivots.
2) Tilts/jabs are really the only options you lose if you drop True-Pivots and stick with DDP.
3) Sonic can still space effectively with spin dash>shield cancel.

All examples start with a retreating foxtrot:

Offense:
>reverse spin dash (towards opponent)
>DDP>Dash Attack
>DDP>Run>Grab/Any aerial
*>DDP>Usmash (Sonic usmash in place)
*>DDP>Usmash Advance (Sonic usmash advances back towards opponent)
>HA? XD

Defensive/Positioning:
>reverse spin dash (shield cancel)>Out of shield options
>DDP>Foxtrot>forward roll (get behind opponent)
>DDP>Run>Shield>Roll
>DDP>Jump>...

Alright so basically, here's how we make our blue friend tougher. As you may or may not know, Sonic's usmash has invincibility frames that can eat through even MK's tornado if timed right.

Mix that with the option of launching a spin dash that has invincy frames as the startup, the ability to shield cancel (abort) and all the other options and you have multiple effective answers for many situations:

Please consider incorporating this into your game.

Any questions/comments?

What's a true pivot, is it anything like the hyphen smash and DACUS where the differences are miniscle and one of them has slightly more demanding inputs to pull off?

A true-pivot = sonic is standing still in neutral stance
A DDP = sonic is foxtroting back towards the opponent unless you execute a usmash/fsmash/dash attack/jump

I'll put some footage up.... by the end of the night. I just need to encode it and upload it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRp8VXdTyz0 ahhh

10doubleposts

I already consistently use DDP's in tournament.

I'm going to start practicing True Pivots, and try them out in friendlies to see the results.

Puffball64 said:

I already consistently use DDP's in tournament.

I'm going to start practicing True Pivots, and try them out in friendlies to see the results.

Click to expand...

What do you usually find yourself doing when you DDP?

Ah, nice DarkNes. This "True Pivot" is dashing, then coming to a stop, then quickly turning around in Sonic's neutral stance rather than being in the dash stop animation. (I think i got it) I'll experiment tonight and see what i can do out of this.

DDP's mess with opponents. I love that, seriously. Its so many options you can use to get your opponent into a bad spot, its very useful.