WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

1: M2K=meta
2: Dojo=meta
3: DSF= meta/snake/wario
4: Lee Martin=lucario/meta
5: Tyrant=meta
5: Co18=ddd
7: Domo=meta
7: Melee1=ic/meta

I'm probably never going to get into the Back Room in my natural born life, so I might as well drag the conflict to grounds where it can be discussed. Apparently the issue that I see people having, is banning MK due to the evidence shown above. The top placings were taken by MK. And now, HOBO is Banning MK at their next tournament. Whether you want MK banned or not, please consider the following.

Is it probable, nay possible, that MK is not only an excellent character, but the most developed? Our most capable minds from Melee have transitioned to MK, and are further progressing his game play to limits far beyond the characters below him. In comparison, the amount of people who are capable of furthering any particular metagame, the number is very small. For you visual learners, If every character was racing on a track of development, MK is lapping everybody by three laps. It's because of this that MK is far advanced. It's not just the characters base advantages that are brought to the table, it's the creative thinkers that are progressing MK's Metagame.

Additionally, I feel that the tournament of WHOBO, and any Regional in that respect should really be analyzed as more than just character placings. You have to think about who was there. I think it goes without saying, that the five best MKs in the United States would go as follows, (This is in no particular order.)
M2K
Tyrant
DSF
Spam
Dojo

Four out of Five of them were there at WHOBO. Their skill far exceeds that of their competitors. It's no wonder that you are going to see MK at the top placings. That's usually what happens when you bring together the Best players from around the United States, they place on top. The reason that this is important, is to note that it was just a coincidence that they all play MK. In California, we have Many players who are capable of beating these people without the Aid of MK. (Again, in no particular order)

DEHF - Falco
Fiction - Wario
Teba - DDD
LeePuff -GaW

Listed above are just a few of California's Capable players, and when I say capable, I mean National tournament Viable. A threat, so to speak. Some might say that the Former is the best in California. But I digress, and that is a different debate. Back on topic, we can clearly see that MK can be beaten, and there are a variety of characters that can do the job. Basing ones opinion to ban MK due to the results of WHOBO is basing an opinion of bias, coincidental, and therefore, invalid results.

Finally, and I feel this bears repeating, we are attacking one character and we fail to shed a helping hand to the characters below MK. My example that I'd like to offer is a story of HugS. HugS played Samus in Melee, and as everybody knows, is absolutely amazing. He didn't pick up brawl immediately, where as I picked it up the day it came out. HugS decided to play Brawl seriously, and therefore decided to pick up ROB. My Peach, has beaten some of the best ROBs in the United States, in money matches, and in tournament.
ShadowROB
Hitori
t0mmy

This was not to brag about my abilities, or boast about those victories, but rather to illuminate this next point. HugS is very smart, and has been a beacon of intelligence in Melee and in Brawl, from helpful advice to jaw-dropping rhetoric. With his knowledge of the game, and just in general, HugS picked up ROB, and furthered ROB's metagame. To this day, I've yet to beat HugS in tournament, I've played him twice. His ROB exceeds the ROB's in the nation as far as I'm concerned. Well, beyond the fact that I'm meat-riding HugS, this paragraph proves a point. It takes a smart mind to further a character. HugS had that potential, so he Did it. And now ROB in a whole is just a better character.

And then what next? Though it sounds farfetched now, we might be thinking differently. MK does keep some characters in check. Without him, Falcos will run rampant. Think about it. Does your Non MK main beat Falco to it's entirety? Soon we will be singling out other characters who make top eight. When those top placings are infested with another character, will we then be having a discussion to ban him/her?

In conclusion, This tournament's results were biased and inconclusive. It's not fair to base such a rash judgment on one tournament like this. And even if others were taken into account, bias knows no discrimination. If anything, Genesis would have been a better choice tournament to base opinions off of. Metagames are still incomplete, and therefore I believe that it's fruitless to make a bann without taking these things into consideration.

Thanks for reading,

Sky`

Hey, im not Higlighted

Oh wait thats a good thing

In my opinion, people play MK more than any other characters in tournaments. This, in turn, causes his metagame to skyrocket. People should really be finding better ways to deal with Meta Knight, rather than ushering for a ban.

Meta Knight isn't really broken, at all. He just knows how to deal with each and every character, and has the tools to do it.

If ROB is being developed by HuGs, I'd totally love to see him write a guide. Yes, I just posted for the first time in months. I love ROB.

meh, I disagree


The thing about MK is that his game KEEPS evolving because he has too many options. The more options that are discovered with MK the less options for other characters. I know that some characters have already had their metagame stopped at a standstill because of MK.........hence why most non MK mains carry a secondary. And it's not really the players (although they do have a role) that keep MK strong; it is Meta Knight. His simple neutral B covers most of the options for high-tier characters when being juggled, and eliminate even more options for low-tier characters. MK himself just covers so many options that only truly skilled players can take him down, let alone smart MK mains.

just my two cents.

Thanks for your opinion. =]

HugS wrote a huge guide on character "zones" just so you know Kips. It's really good.

Anyways im not suprised. Houston has banned stuff in the past all the time. Metaknight a while back, IC's chaingrabs. But yet they have ISP tournies after the intitial ones. ISP's are fun, but not for competitive scene.

Let them ban metaknight. Any character that had the top 8 placings at a national tournament would look like an unbalanced character.

Sky articulated everything I wanted to say much, much clearer.

Let's not forget that many other top players non MK mainers weren't present, aside from the cali people you listed off the top of my head, Azen, Chu, NinjaLink, Ally, Anther, ADHD, Atomsk, all of these people have proved capable at placing highly without MK, and weren't at this tournament.

Ozone. said:

HugS wrote a huge guide on character "zones" just so you know Kips. It's really good.

Anyways im not suprised. Houston has banned stuff in the past all the time. Metaknight a while back, IC's chaingrabs. But yet they have ISP tournies after the intitial ones. ISP's are fun, but not for competitive scene.

Let them ban metaknight. Any character that had the top 8 placings at a national tournament would look like an unbalanced character.

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THank you very much, I forgot to add that.

Ayaz18 said:

meh, I disagree


The thing about MK is that his game KEEPS evolving because he has too many options. The more options that are discovered with MK the less options for other characters. I know that some characters have already had their metagame stopped at a standstill because of MK.........hence why most non MK mains carry a secondary. And it's not really the players (although they do have a role) that keep MK strong; it is Meta Knight. His simple neutral B covers most of the options for high-tier characters when being juggled, and eliminate even more options for low-tier characters. MK himself just covers so many options that only truly skilled players can take him down, let alone smart MK mains.

just my two cents.

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I agree with your point.

An example is the Peach community, who has put a ton of effort into further developing the character, and it has brought her very far (especially in the hands of skilled players), but she herself is limited by her own base capabilities when it comes down to it.

Like you said/implied, some characters have tools to deal with and alleviate some of the pressure that they would otherwise have to put up with in certain matchups, but some characters (MK for example) just have more to work with. This is in no way saying that Peach cannot defeat a MK or a Marth that puts a lot of pressure on her, but it is certainly harder for her to win than it is for the other character, hence the observed and predetermined matchup numbers.



As for the topic of the thread: I agree with you Sky that this tournament alone is nowhere near enough to even consider a ban on MK. It was all sheer coincidence, and MK is not unbeatable, even in the hands of the best players around. Wishful thinking coming from a player such as myself, but Ninjalink, Fiction and some others are players who prove my point.

Beef speaks a good point. Meta Knight as a character just has more to work with than most others. Even though the community can push a character really far, MKs core attacks are still better than, say, Falcons'. However, a lot of characters closer to MK in terms of viability (Snake, Wario, Diddy, Marth, Pika, ROB, ZSS, etc) have a lot to work with also, and can also take large steps in their metagame like MK.

Also, I disagree with MK shutting down a lot of low-tiers. Well...he does, but often, MK isn't the worst match-up for lower tier characters. He's a bad match-up for a lot, but for people like Fox, he's not as bad as a Sheik or Pika is against him.

AvaricePanda said:

Sky articulated everything I wanted to say much, much clearer.

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xD
You were thinking the same thing?

also..............just pointing out:

the top ROB player placed 49th

i'm just saying the facts right now...........

The top ROB player where?
in Texas?

I think he used Kirby though...

Iono.

XeroXen said:

In my opinion, people play MK more than any other characters in tournaments. This, in turn, causes his metagame to skyrocket.

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your opinion happens to be fact and people play mk more because he is the best character in the game.

Edit: Sudai used kirby against ruddy in a mm iirc, but idk if he used him in tourny, i doubt he would not use his main in a big tourny like that.

As much as I don't think MK should be banned and I don't want him to be...

The competitive Brawl scene would be so much better without him.

Way to blow the HOBO thing way out of proportion Sky. We've all already acknowledged the players and who they mained during the tournament, and all of that jazz you played in the first post.

Also, the next HOBO is indeed banning MK, but it's a "one time" thing. The next one will have MK back again.

At least Houston knows how to juggle rules around. Makes things a little more interesting, and at the very least, they're experimenting, something almost every other region rarely ever tries, from what I've seen.

It's a double edged sword.
On one hand, we can just blame Meta Knight's culture shock, lets face it, even the top pros are intimidated by him, so they fight fire with fire.
Now this crosses too, because people can work off the intimidation and find ways around him.
Or ban him.
On the other hand, this just goes into another category of playing to win. Perhaps it is as cut and dried as it looks.
Meta Knight is the best by a landslide, in the end, no one can face him and win, so in order to win, they are going to chose the best.
The professional metagame will center Meta Knight more so than any other character, because no matter how well, you develop with Fox, or Snake, or Marth, or Wario, when **** hits the fan, you're gonna choose Meta Knight.
People are betting on the former, hoping that it's just an intimidation factor.
And a solution can be found with the appropriate effort and research.
This dives into the unknown of possibility, and will spawn the latter before an unlikely solution is found.

All the same, in fairness, a solution must be searched for, but not for very much longer as to come to a conclusion.

Wait til Genesis.
That tournament should be the be all end all of Meta Knight and a definite decision should be made by the end of that tournament.

But I smell bannage.

*Sees the link to this thread posted from somewhere else*

Sky` said:

Does your Non MK main beat Falco to it's entirety?

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*Feels like answering the question* yes, my non MK main, Ice Climbers, beat out Falco.

No one's non-MK main beats out MK though. They can come even, but that's the best you'll get without having major skill differences.

I ran World Hobo and you people dont get it.

MetaKNight is the most "developed" character in the game because he makes SO MANY unviable. So many people see 5-7 metaknight mains and are forced to decide "should i use my main( insert non meta character here) or should i go metaknight cause it seems its the only way to SLIGHTY have a chance?" this is whats this game has BEEN and what its staying.

here are some results from HOBO 11(before brawl was a year old)

HOBO 11 (planet zero brawl)
10/4/08

1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee Martin (meta)
4: DMG (wario)
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylain (GW/meta)
9: Chuck (meta/pkmn)
9: Ky (pit)
9: Dojo (meta)
9: Magik (meta/pkmn)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic/ddd)
13: Infinity (meta)
13: Ultamate Razor (snake)
13: Axe (wolf)
17: Fliphop (diddy)
17: Domo (meta)
17: UTD Zack (GW)
17: Dr. Mario Kart (meta)
17: Light (GW?/sheik?)
17: Santi (Tlink)
17: Xyro(SAMUS!!!)
17: Thien (diddy)
25: Nynja (diddy)
25: Lee Harris (rob/meta)
25: Zori (olimar)
25: Ice (snake)
25: Kown (pit)
25: Affinity (meta)
25: Bad News Bear (pika/wolf)
25: Bwett (yoshi)
33: T-Rex (snake)
33: ArturitoBurrito (ike)
33: Kira (marth/snake
33: Bluejay (mario)
33: Kosmos (peach/ZS)
33: Vash (pit)
33: Kalo (marth/wolf)
33: Sethlon (falco)
33: Salocin (meta/fox)
33: Furbs (yoshi)
33: Carnage (meta)
33: Gar (falco/marth)
33: C.Y. (falco)
33: Dingding (link)
33: Broli (fox/marth)
33: Axxo (falco/meta)
49: Kado (falco)
49: Mr.Sir.Dr.Daddy
49: Chaddly
49: Zeton (fox)
49: Trela (lucario)
49: Gea (peach)
49: Heytallman (lucas)
49: Sam388
49: Swoll (ganon)
49: Toast
49: Tuxedo Maniac (wario)
60-112=pool players who didnt make it out


and obviously you can go look up the world hobo results. By allowing metaknight you are encouraging metaknight because on the GRAND scale of things, metaknights are pretty much the only thing thats gonna beat metaknight. Sure a GW/snake/wario will win here and there but over all METAKNIGHT dittos have in the past and will continue to dominate.

I dont know where you get your info from, but houston only gets rid of the BROKEN things such as DDD/IC/wall infinite chain grab. oh and ive banned metaknight a GRAND TOTAL of 2 times out of 16 HOBO's. Its not a perm thing. I make my events n00v friendly while still allowing the top players to win without being held back.

Houston is fine and it always will be. Read results from HOBO 1 to world hobo and you will see people LOVE my rules(or else they would refuse to go or they would hold thier own events)

Sky i met you at the WCSL and ive seen your vids. Your a funny guy and i like you but seriously this article and the other article about how metaknight is GOOD for our community is just pain poop. When a character BREAKS the CP system its common sense he needs to go. In melee the top 6 chars all countered each other(or you could pick a stage that gave you a slight advantage vs the other 6) and in brawl you can do the same thing. But since metaknight is allowed this CAN NOT happen. There is not a stage or charcter or character+stage that can beat a METAKNIGHT. diddy + FD=blah blah no. Just TRY that on dojo, please. i dare you.

While I partially agree with this topic, there is some pretty negative vibes towards Houston in here for no reason.

We don't really support ISP, lol. That isn't Houston, try coming here.

Not everyone down here agrees with the main TO's rules, but we respect him.

Banning Meta next tournament is a one time deal.

I'm pretty sure Houston isn't going to ban Meta unless it is done nationally...

and finally, IC cgs are not banned, but rather INFINITES are limited to 5. This is TO preference.

Jack Frost said:

your opinion happens to be fact and people play mk more because he is the best character in the game.

Edit: Sudai used kirby against ruddy in a mm iirc, but idk if he used him in tourny, i doubt he would not use his main in a big tourny like that.

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I actually used Kirby in tourney against Ruddy because I just don't care about placing well in Brawl anymore since I quit it for Brawl+. I find Kirby more fun than just campcampcamping with ROB so I played Kirby, got *****, then switched to ROB because being aggressive with him and losing is more fun than getting 3 stocked as Kirby. Haha.


Oh, and Ayaz, I'm definitely not the top ROB player nor have I ever made that claim.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to like, Put negativity on Houston or anything.

I just noticed that you guys banned MK, how does that have a negative connotation?

KRDsonic said:

*Sees the link to this thread posted from somewhere else*



*Feels like answering the question* yes, my non MK main, Ice Climbers, beat out Falco.

No one's non-MK main beats out MK though. They can come even, but that's the best you'll get without having major skill differences.

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Dunno.

SK92's Falco beat TKD's IC's.

Pretty badly.

Sudai said:

I actually used Kirby in tourney against Ruddy because I just don't care about placing well in Brawl anymore since I quit it for Brawl+. I find Kirby more fun than just campcampcamping with ROB so I played Kirby, got *****, then switched to ROB because being aggressive with him and losing is more fun than getting 3 stocked as Kirby. Haha.


Oh, and Ayaz, I'm definitely not the top ROB player nor have I ever made that claim.

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You are the best ROB Player in tha world. =]

The WHOBO results are merely being used as an evidence of a problem that was brought out months ago and is unlikely to go away soon.

Metaknight, having no bad matchups, and arguably no even matchups as well (Snake and Wario are the only ones that can be argued, and Wario can't deal with planking at all and has bad stages and Snake is likely in MK's favor- judging from M2K vs Ally and my discussions with Ally on the topic, as well as the fact that the top MK's outplace the top Snakes), cannot be counterpicked, and is, in fact, his own worst matchup.

Play a character with a poor matchup on Metaknight? On any other character, the answer is to counterpick. Develop a set of secondaries to deal with your bad matchups. With Metaknight in the picture, this becomes bleak. You can simply get good at the matchup, but you can't count on being able to beat the top Metaknights in the country that know your character's matchup as well as you know theirs.

Best solution? Switch to MK, or second MK. It removes all of your bad matchups, including MK himself.

Is it any coincidence that the vast majority of the top players main or second MK? FICTION CP's MK on some matchups. DEHF takes MK on DSF at times. Then, of course, there's DSF himself, as Snake/MK.

We're going to keep seeing more and more MKs, as players realize that by switching from their mains to MK, they lose their bad matchups and see an improved performance in tournament results. Players with characters with bad MK matchups almost have no choice but to switch to MK- look at the dwindling numbers of ROB players.


MK is a cancer. He vastly overcentralizes the metagame by removing a counterpick system, and it's better for the metagame to remove him.

And then what next? Though it sounds farfetched now, we might be thinking differently. MK does keep some characters in check. Without him, Falcos will run rampant. Think about it. Does your Non MK main beat Falco to it's entirety? Soon we will be singling out other characters who make top eight. When those top placings are infested with another character, will we then be having a discussion to ban him/her?

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I've considered this heavily, actually, and I don't believe it to be a problem. With MK banned, a counterpick system develops, as a lot of the other top characters that have reasonable matchups on MK are lucky enough to have counters that don't make it past MK.

Falco has disadvantaged matchups to Pikachu (buffered 90% CG anyone?), Ice Climbers (see FICTION vs DEHF), Kirby, and Lucario at the very least. Interestingly, all of these characters are vastly underrepresented in the tournament scene.

Snake? Dedede, Olimar (forces him to approach), Pikachu (buffered CG pushes this over from even), Wario, ROB, and Falco all can be argued to have an advantage, and others may go even (ZSS? DK? Diddy?).


Dedede? Olimar, Falco, Pikachu (again the new buffered CG), and Ice Climbers.

Game & Watch? Snake, Marth, Diddy.


All of the top characters have counters! Interestingly, heavily underused characters like Pikachu, Kirby, and ICs would do very well in this environment, functioning as the counters for some heavily used characters. A counterpick system means players would play more characters and further develop the metagame, and we'd have a thriving, varied metagame.

Sky` said:

Dunno.

SK92's Falco beat TKD's IC's.

Pretty badly.

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And DEHF's lost to FICTION's.

Sky` said:

Dunno.

SK92's Falco beat TKD's IC's.

Pretty badly.

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You asked about if the character beat out falco, not the player

SK92 is just an amazing Falco.

TX always has an MK banned tournament once in a while, it's not a permanent thing, quit overreacting.

KRDsonic said:

You asked about if the character beat out falco, not the player

SK92 is just an amazing Falco.

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Oh ho ho, Mr cute here.

Anyway.

I just don't think that IC's Completely counter Falco.

Just like how Marth doesn't completely counter Falco.

get what I'm saying?

Sky` said:

Dunno.

SK92's Falco beat TKD's IC's.

Pretty badly.

Click to expand...

And DEHF's Falco lost to FICTION's Ice Climbers.

I just don't think that IC's Completely counter Falco.

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We don't need "complete counter", we need "has a notable advantage on".

Then there's Kirby, Lucario, and Pikachu, all of whom have notable advantages on him as well.

Sky` said:

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to like, Put negativity on Houston or anything.

I just noticed that you guys banned MK, how does that have a negative connotation?

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by showing the results of world hobo then saying we banne dit without actually digging DEEP and learning WHY i banned. that makes us look bad.

i banned meta this one time cause honestly the last time i did it(hobo12) i literally have some people tell me to this day that hobo 12 was the greatest event of thier life!


PS: i apologize for being harsh in my previous post. i over reacted, ill edit it a bit.

Wait wait, everybody back up just a second.

Where in the OP did I say,

"Man, this is all Houston's fault."

I think you guys are the ones overreacting. I'm just using that one tournament as an example.

And it just so happened that you're now doing a tournament with MK banned, and I capitalized on that, and used it as an example. If you're confident that what you're doing is good and all that, then you shouldn't have taken it offensively.

I don't see how it's even remotely insulting, at all.

Im rather curious to find out what top 10 characters would place high if MK was completely banned.I have some ideas but their my opinion.Either way, our next tournament which is hobo 16 will only be a one time deal, as others said before me.

Xyro77 said:

by showing the results of world hobo then saying we banne dit without actually digging DEEP and learning WHY i banned. that makes us look bad.

i banned meta this one time cause honestly the last time i did it(hobo12) i literally have some people tell me to this day that hobo 12 was the greatest event of thier life!


PS: i apologize for being harsh in my previous post. i over reacted, ill edit it a bit.

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This isn't about Houston at all! What the hell?

This is about the potential bann on MK from the SBR, not Houston.

no, like the only ROB player I seen placed 49th...............

just look at the full list, there was either no ROB rep, or a lot of ROB players have switched to MK

I do agree with Praxis on the whole overcentralization bit though. MK can't be counterpicked, and has no bad matchups, so naturally everyone (that values winning above all else) will gravitate towards Metaknight in the long run.

And why is it overreacting to have an MK banned trny once in a while? You forget, this it TX, where we know how to have fun, not WC or EC, where everything is serious business all the time.

Sky` said:

I don't see how it's even remotely insulting, at all.

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welcome to texas

Sky` said:

Oh ho ho, Mr cute here.

Anyway.

I just don't think that IC's Completely counter Falco.

Just like how Marth doesn't completely counter Falco.

get what I'm saying?

Click to expand...

Nah, I know that Ice Climbers don't completely counter Falco. having a slight advantage against a really good character is what keeps that character from being broken though, because that means that there is at least one other character out there that can stop that character from being completely successful and mauling over everyone in a tournament.

I was just saying that since no character in the game has even a slight advantage over Meta Knight. That's why I believe that if MK were to ever be completely banned, other characters that at least have disadvantages in some of their matchups won't have to worry at all about being banned.