WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[Hylian]

dojo beating m2k at gen? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's going to do it. He gets closer each time. In his shoutouts for whobo Dojo told Jason he was taking him down at Genesis . I believe in him.

 

[bobson]

Ugh. Please just stop lol. Falco can CG GW to 35% and dair. If you are playing a falco and they cannot chaingrab you, then they don't know how to play falco. After that Falco can techchase GW really easily considering his rolling and get-up animations are so horrible.

GW's bucket filled with Falcos lasers does 18% and doesn't kill till past 80%. Hardly an "Instant kill move". Having a full bucket also means you can't bucket brake.

Huh.

In my defense, I am a horrible player and have only played this matchup against two or three people.

 

[Ravin]

If you think WHOBO results bother you. Genesis is going to be another MK sausage fest.
Praxis hit the nail on the dot a lot of times vsing the MK issue. People should really look into that instead of telling people STFU and better your metagame.

You cant better a metagame if noone is playing that character.

 

[Eddie G]

I agree with Ravin. M2K, DSF, Dojo, and so on under the same roof. Best to put the tournament results on everyone's fortune cookie because it's going to happen again. Just watch.

 

[Nintendevil]

Weve been saying the same things about Metaknight for the last six months. Can anybody tell me one thing that's changed?


...




Exactly. Here we are presented with a problem.
If we ban metaknight, other characters will advance in this game, but not against metaknight because the matchup wont be played.
If we don't ban him, the characters will not advance because of the lack of players, however to a small degree, vs. metaknight may progress because so many are being played.

Seeing as how we had not banned him, but no answers to mk have arrived, perhaps we know the answer to this option.

 

[HugS™]

A couple corrections: HugS actually played Brawl before you did, I played with him at the E for All pre-release event/impromptu tourney.
Also, you beat me due to "forfeit". You can MM me any time you want ^___^

He said I just started playing brawl "seriously". I started in January. Any accomplishments I've had prior to January have all been due to Melee smarts. I couldn't even tell you what Smash DI or momentum canceling was prior to January.

 

[Ravin]

Its like back when I posted in the first brawl tier list thread. The SBR voted about 80% to not banning MK. But what does that mean when you have about 80%/or 80% of your population going to MK?

Not a Thing.

 

[Sukai]

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I tend to jump on misconceptions lol.

I'll say.
So now that this whole big misunderstanding has been cleared up, what does everyone do now?
As I said earlier (even though in hindsight, it's pretty irrelevant), permanently Meta Knight shouldn't really be looked into until after Genesis.
At this point, all the important people (i.e. Backroom members) should have all the research basis needed to conclude the matter.

Either that or everyone takes a page from Texas and mix some diversity in tournament organization.

 

[Eddie G]

Actually...one thing has changed, and continues to. What is it? Time.

Any previous reasoning that was backed by "this game hasn't been out long enough" or "communities need to work harder on the MK matchup" is slowly dwindling away as time carries on. It is as you pointed out Nintendevil: we have not banned him which allowed for further analysis on the matchup, communities have been working hard on the matchup, and there are still no suitable options to deal with the matchup that go beyond bringing it to a 50-50 matchup; Also, as Praxis had elaborated on...planking causes some more issues for those matchups that are otherwise 50-50 between MK and [insert character here].

Time keeps passing by, how long will the excuse of "not enough time has gone by" last?

 

[Vyke]

Yo dawg i herd u like brawl so I put a meta knight in your brawl so you can metagame while you brawl

word.

 

[Gea]

HugS, Smash DI was in Melee >.>

 

[shadowlink3]

G&W's bucket and crouch let him avoid lasercamping. Falco is forced to approach, and G&W's dtilt ***** him.

In a defensive game like Brawl, the approacher is at a disadvantage.

Not saying it's a strong counter, but it's another disadvantaged matchup to the ones I listed. Falco =/= MK.

If thats the case, MK is always at a disadvantage, unless its planking. But if its not present, then that statement is invalid.

 

[HugS™]

HugS, Smash DI was in Melee >.>

LoL was it really? Not like Brawl though, right?...

Well I was Samus, I never really needed it.

 

[Nintendevil]

Actually...one thing has changed, and continues to. What is it? Time.

Any previous reasoning that was backed by "this game hasn't been out long enough" or "communities need to work harder on the MK matchup" is slowly dwindling away as time carries on. It is as you pointed out Nintendevil: we have not banned him which allowed for further analysis on the matchup, communities have been working hard on the matchup, and there are still no suitable options to deal with the matchup that go beyond bringing it to a 50-50 matchup; Also, as Praxis had elaborated on...planking causes some more issues for those matchups that are otherwise 50-50 between MK and [insert character here].

Time keeps passing by, how long will the excuse of "not enough time has gone by" last?

No fair thats a given

but yeah that's what I said in different words.

 

[Xyro77]

ive already told the people of houston that if by evo the sbr does not bother banning meta. ill do it my slef. this crap is clearly not going to be fixed by the sbr. they fail on so many things. the melee sbr got **** done

 

[RT]

LoL was it really? Not like Brawl though, right?...

Well I was Samus, I never really needed it.

It's easier to do in Brawl. Everything is, lol.

But if you get good at it in Brawl, you'll start doing it better in Melee. Seriously.

 

[shadowlink3]

ive already told the people of houston that if by evo the sbr does not bother banning meta. ill do it my slef. this crap is clearly not going to be fixed by the sbr. they fail on so many things. the melee sbr got **** done

And what will you do? main mk and just ledgestall? That wont do anything.

-.-

 

[Ravin]

SBR seems lacking in most cases. Not trying to strike anyone down. But its a deadily game of politics almost.

Just because most of your community thinks that it shouldnt be banned or removed BECAUSE they do it, DOESNT mean its good for your community over all.

Praxis said it, ill say it again.

MetaKnight is a cancer.

 

[Vyke]

Jesus Christ. Are you people discussing banning Meta Knight just now? Just get a petition, get it signed by people that matter, and see what happens.

Rather than discuss over the obvious (And yes, it is obvious. Like, Akuma obvious?) get **** done. Even if you fail, you can't say that you didn't try.

 

[Tomkraven]

My opinion is that, the smash community is sooo centered in MK that they are not able to see beyond him. Theres far more things in this game yet to be discovered but we are so frustrated that MK is dominating the tournament scene nowadays that we dont care about all the other important things.

Lots of people are talking about "ways to beat mk", "this attack goes through MKs *insert attack here*", and blah blah blah. But almost nobody is talking about : " ways to make a more solid game plan for *insert char here*, or any other thing concerning your own character. This game revolves around skills and knowledge not around MK.

Also, about thing of banning MK... its like that example i read a couple of months ago about the gayness level. Lets say MK has a gayness level of 3 and we decide to ban him. then level 2.9999999999 will become our "new MK" and we will repeat the same process of banning and so on in a vicious circle.

So lets just focus in our own characters instead of focusing how MK could be beaten by X attack from Y character.

 

[Hylian]

Roy_R(Marth) vs DSF(Metaknight) tournament match from Whobo.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_8aCC6dyeI

DSF went DDD vs Roy_R to beat him, since his MK lost. DSF also didn't play MK against Lee Martin, who is amazing against MK with Lucario.


People put too much importance on match-ups. MK is not making worse players win. The better players are going to continue winning even if MK is banned. They will also be able to do that with one character.

Sure, some of the top players might migrate to different characters, but they will probably go to whoever they find the most fun to play. Let's face it, MK is REALLY fun to play. He has a ton of offensive options that actually work, which is rare in this game. It's not suprising that most of the top players play as him, and I have no doubt that they could win with other characters as well, and will if MK is banned.

 

[Nintendevil]

Praxis said it, ill say it again.

MetaKnight is a cancer.

>.>

Let's face it, MK is REALLY fun to play.

Opinion

 

[Ravin]

Zombie Cancer.

You spelled remaining wrong <_<.

 

[Nintendevil]

Zombie Cancer.

You spelled remaining wrong <_<.

Now I didn't

EDIT: OK I changed it now it's not working...

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I should have gone....then no one would be ranting about mk domination...hopefully haha.

 

[shadowlink3]

As I was reading through the post that some of the people were saying, the post that were like "MK make most characters in brawl not even viable for tournament play."

Lets be real

If MK was ban, would that really make Link, or CF, Tourney viable characters?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, first of all, why was anybody in this thread jumping on ISP's nuts? IIRC, and I better considering I helped out at WHOBO, ISP ran very well, and we had little to no complaints at all. We actually had people complaining that Easter Sunday screwed over the 1v1 ISP, so there you go. Besides, ISP has nothing to do with MK.

As I was reading through the post that some of the people were saying, the post that were like "MK make most characters in brawl not even viable for tournament play."

Lets be real

If MK was ban, would that really make Link, or CF, Tourney viable characters?

Umm, who is talking about Link and Falcon specifically? *looks around* No one? That's what I thought. Stop exaggerating; an MK ban wouldn't magically make EVERY character 100% tournament viable, but no one said it would. No one AT ALL could debate that it wouldn't, both directly and indirectly, make SOME CERTAIN characters MORE viable than before.

 

[shadowlink3]

I am basing off the fact that MK makes those characters near worthless. Which is the point he is making

 

[Master Raven]

super counterpickan bros. brawl

**** yeah **** those MKs FICTION

 

[Deathcarter]

ShadowLink3, most of the top and high tiers in Brawl make them unviable. Don't blame it on just Meta Knight.

 

[shadowlink3]

You got a point. =)

 

[Dekar173]

MK will eventually be banned, so w.e

Praxis no one has argued against you because it's very difficult arguing against fact. ><

 

[Xyro77]

ShadowLink3, most of the top and high tiers in Brawl make them unviable. Don't blame it on just Meta Knight.

i can tell you right now. samus can do all kinda of **** to rob and snake.


and nothing to meta

 

[Praxis]

There's a lot of mid tiers that function as counters to specific high tier characters. Said mid tiers are rarlely played because of Metaknight, actually boosting the dominance of some of the high tiers.

It's not going to make unviable characters suddenly good, but as Meta players switch to other high tiers assuming he was banned, people might start picking up these mid tiers for specfic matchups, improving their metagame.

Not really a reason for banning, more of a pleasant side effect.

 

[Alzi]

Wow.

I wonder if the placings would of changed at all if metaknight was never in brawl?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ praxis, most mid tiers have much worse matchups with either marth or ddd than mk

the problem being mk does very well against both of these limiting characters, so he gets picked up as the secondary to counter them.

I could right up a whole long example about how the majority of the cast gets gayed by one of those two, but nobodies going to read it, so I'm not going to waste the time.

 

[Browny]

My opinion is that, the smash community is sooo centered in MK that they are not able to see beyond him. Theres far more things in this game yet to be discovered but we are so frustrated that MK is dominating the tournament scene nowadays that we dont care about all the other important things.

Lots of people are talking about "ways to beat mk", "this attack goes through MKs *insert attack here*", and blah blah blah. But almost nobody is talking about : " ways to make a more solid game plan for *insert char here*, or any other thing concerning your own character. This game revolves around skills and knowledge not around MK.

Thats would be nice... except what % of anyones rounds at WHOBO were against an MK?

whats the point in learning strategies for your characters that dont focus on beating metaknight if you face more MK's than the entire cast combined lol

 

[Cirno]

MK will eventually be banned, so w.e

Praxis no one has argued against you because it's very difficult arguing against fact. ><

I personally just find it very tedious. It feels like I've been repeating myself for a long time.

):

The WHOBO results are merely being used as an evidence of a problem that was brought out months ago and is unlikely to go away soon.

I thought that guy said they were just trying an on and off thing?
:d

Metaknight, having no bad matchups, and arguably no even matchups as well (Snake and Wario are the only ones that can be argued, and Wario can't deal with planking at all and has bad stages and Snake is likely in MK's favor- judging from M2K vs Ally and my discussions with Ally on the topic, as well as the fact that the top MK's outplace the top Snakes), cannot be counterpicked, and is, in fact, his own worst matchup.

You can't argue fact. If MK was in fact his own worse match up( which of course is 50:50) there would be no arguing or debating over it.

Play a character with a poor matchup on Metaknight? On any other character, the answer is to counterpick. Develop a set of secondaries to deal with your bad matchups. With Metaknight in the picture, this becomes bleak. You can simply get good at the matchup, but you can't count on being able to beat the top Metaknights in the country that know your character's matchup as well as you know theirs.

If you're playing the top players of any character in the country getting good at the match up is really the only option. The only time you should be able to count or guarantee a win over another player just by counter-picking is if you know they will be sandbagging or you are just that much better than them. Isn't this why we have instances where people win their worst match-ups? I believe this is also why despite all his bad matchups Snake is in the same rank as MK.

Best solution? Switch to MK, or second MK. It removes all of your bad matchups, including MK himself.

Won't this end up as Marth if MK is removed? Most Marth mains seem to feel MK is their only real obstacle in tourney.

Leaving only Snake and DDD? An arguable 55/60?

I personally believe that if RoyR can win a 35/65 against one of the top players in Smash, let alone top MK then that 55/60 is going to be looking more of a 50/50 at top levels.

Is it any coincidence that the vast majority of the top players main or second MK? FICTION CP's MK on some matchups. DEHF takes MK on DSF at times. Then, of course, there's DSF himself, as Snake/MK.

Not at all. MK is the best character. If you want a better chance at winning pick him up. The Fox only Final Destination meme didn't pop up because of nothing, nor did the mass of melee Marths,or the surge of SF4 Sagats and rampage of Ryus.


Not to say these are all we see but people will always flock to the best, we'll have the group who play the people the character(s) they like and in that group some will like the best character. It's a given that the majority will hold the top players isn't it?

When it doesn't it means there is a lot more of the game to be explored.

We're going to keep seeing more and more MKs, as players realize that by switching from their mains to MK, they lose their bad matchups and see an improved performance in tournament results. Players with characters with bad MK matchups almost have no choice but to switch to MK- look at the dwindling numbers of ROB players.

Isn't that what Overswarm and many others thought/tried? No offense.
Bad players have bad MKs( again no offense... to Overswarm anyway >_>), they do not suddenly start winning. I had a finals match bookmarked where the guy went DDD to MK losing to Falcon. I'm sure it's around here somewhere on the forums if you care to ask around, I'm sure someone knows what match I'm talking about. If not I'll find it for you.
[Found it]=[WABA Loser Finals: Reflex (CF) Vs Desu (MK) Game 2]

The counterpick system only functions as a boost in even matches between players. You should not lose to my little sister just because she picked MK unless you are on a similar playing level, and that boost gives her what she needed to win.

And with MK gone, you are still going to get countered/ out played if the player is better that set.

MK is a cancer. He vastly overcentralizes the metagame by removing a counterpick system, and it's better for the metagame to remove him.

If a counterpick system was that important, Yun from 3rd strike would have been banned. Winnable is good enough as we can see from NL's multiple victories within a disadvantaged matchups. It's only an aid to the tournament scene through the boost method in my opinion.

I've considered this heavily, actually, and I don't believe it to be a problem. With MK banned, a counterpick system develops, as a lot of the other top characters that have reasonable matchups on MK are lucky enough to have counters that don't make it past MK.

Falco has disadvantaged matchups to Pikachu (buffered 90% CG anyone?), Ice Climbers (see FICTION vs DEHF), Kirby, and Lucario at the very least. Interestingly, all of these characters are vastly underrepresented in the tournament scene.

Snake? Dedede, Olimar (forces him to approach), Pikachu (buffered CG pushes this over from even), Wario, ROB, and Falco all can be argued to have an advantage, and others may go even (ZSS? DK? Diddy?).


Dedede? Olimar, Falco, Pikachu (again the new buffered CG), and Ice Climbers.

Game & Watch? Snake, Marth, Diddy.


All of the top characters have counters! Interestingly, heavily underused characters like Pikachu, Kirby, and ICs would do very well in this environment, functioning as the counters for some heavily used characters. A counterpick system means players would play more characters and further develop the metagame, and we'd have a thriving, varied metagame.

You're forgetting Marth again who would arguably have no bad match ups.

I highly doubt those other character are underused because of MK since none of these are unwinnable matchups and everytime Chu plays Kirby v MK is argued.

These counter characters appear now, so if they're not stopping them now because of fear of MK then they won't stop them once he's gone for fear of their other bad match ups. Unless MK is their only one which means we have another character who breaks the counterpick system.

If it's no coincidence that all the top players are using MK, is it going to be a coincidence if they all move to the next best character and the metagame remains virtually the same?

By that logic it'll be Marth.
Or Snake with Marth as a secondary.
Or DedeDe with Marth as a secondary.




I just think that at the highest levels of play it becomes more player vs player than character vs character and MK is not that good of a character to change that. Other wise the rankings would just have him in S and everyone else in F for failure. He would win every tournament his self, showing up in a Golden Maybach selecting himself, doing 3 on 1s to speed up the process and flying away with the prize money to make passionate love to his wife M2K and buy their adopted son Jacob a DSi.

Also there'd be no close matches down to the last stock with other characters.
So that'd be lame too.

):

 

[Psychoace]

I think dk gives marth a hard time....

also the hater on falcon just wait I'll show you..

As much as I don't like metaknight staling the metagame dojo vs. m2k was really ****ing fun to watch..

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Wow.

I wonder if the placings would of changed at all if metaknight was never in brawl?

Somehow I suspect we wouldn't see placings with a character that doesn't exist, yes.