Norfair is One of Diddy Kong's Best Stages

AlphaZealot · Apr 17, 2009

Norfair is one of Diddy Kong's best stages. I'm convinced of it. Here is what you need to learn and do in order to win on this stage:

1) Everything relies on the first stock and grabbing a lead so you can control the lowest platform, forcing the opponent to come after you instead of you going after them
2) You must control the lowest platform and transition to other platforms by throw bananas up through them. The best way to control the lowest platform is usually just to have both your bananas out and continually uthrowing them to keep them from disappearing/also keeps them as an active projectile. Additionally you have your peanut gun
3) Learn about lava. When the fire-lava stuff gets shot from the background it can KO you as low as 30-40% with bad DI. These little fire spurts are super dangerous, but also super helpful, if you trip someone and they get hit by it then you just scored an early KO. The wall of lava is also good for this. To avoid getting hit by the wall of lava (from the background of the screen) simply shield or grab an edge. DO NOT go inside whatever little fortress the game gives you. Going in there makes you trapped (though you could try it in some situations, you can up-b someone for massive barrel damage inside there/you can u-smash them repeatedly), instead, when the opponent goes in there, set up camp right outside, then when the lava goes away there is a few seconds where they can't escape, here you can hit them from beneith with u-air or you can try and banana them the second the walls come down. As per the lava from the side of the stage, simply avoid this by using your jumps/side-b to move from one edge to the next. Additionally you can set up a "wall" with your banananas by u-throwing them, which will often create oppurtunities for you to hit the opponent into the laval.
4) Learn to work with the lava. There are a few times where I intentionally let myself get hit by lava. Why? Because I still have 1 jump/side b/up b and I can cover a huge aerial distance from the knockback of the lava without having to use one of these things. Example, if the opponent is on the third platform above you (or in the air above you even higher) and the lava is coming up from underneith the stage, instead of jumping to meet the opponent just get hit by the lava, which will send you to the opponent faster than jumping and will likely catch them off guard (view U-air KO versus Snakeee). You can also do this with the lava on the side of the stage. If the opponent is camping you far left and you see the lava start to come from the far right (lets say you are at high damage) then you can just send yourself into the lava in order to break the opponent position fast.

Pros of Norfair:
-Stage can get KO's for you, reducing the suckyness of Diddy's KO moves
-Diddy has quick air attacks which are all perfect for the height of platforms on this stage.
-Diddy's side-b can transition from the edge of on platform to the next (either above or below).
-Diddy's side-b can also cross the gap above the center platform (the gap between the middle platforms).
-Diddy's recovery is basically ungimpable here (as are most characters)
-Your bananas allow you to control whatever platform you want. Controlling the lowest one also puts you out of reach of most characters projectiles.
-Peanuts are perfect for this stage.
-Works well against almost every character.

Cons
-you cannot nana lock more than 2-3 hits, if that
-if you don't know how to deal with lava you could find yourself getting killed more by it than by the opponent
-if the opponent gets your nanas it can be really hard to get them back
-if you don't take off their stock first you can't make use of the bananas to control platforms, since they have no reason to approach such an obviously powerful position.

My only loss on this stage in about 4 months:
Game 2: AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong) vs Ripple (Donkey Kong): Norfair
You'll notice everything was going to plan until the 1st KO, where he managed to get me before I got him. The result was he basically won the game.

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

I don't think it's one of his best, but it's not a bad stage for him either.

Most of the points you brought up are good ideas/good points...except this:

'-Works well against almost every character.'

noooooo:

MK, Wario, Olimar, Link, Ivysaur & Charizard & Squirtle Toon Link, ZSS, Bowser, GaW, Pit, Lucas, Luigi, Yoshi, and I question Snake and Pikachu being good here as well

AvaricePanda · Apr 17, 2009

What Player-1 said. Alone, it's a good system for Diddy and against some characters, really good, although other characters have benefits here that outweigh yours. Snake, MK (whose aerial game is lol and I hate playing here), Bowser, etc.

But thanks for the points regardless, and I'm pretty sure a ton of Diddy's (including myself), benefited from the advice on controlling the bottom platform. I'm going to have to test this stage around with some characters that aren't good on this stage...

AlphaZealot · Apr 17, 2009

I would disagree. ZSS/GW/Luigi/Yoshi/TL/Charizard/Link/Lucas should all be at (a possibly big) disadvantages against Diddy there. Simply put, they have to break Diddy's platform zone and they don't really have the tools to do it (view me vs Snakee). Luigi has to play close to you, but he can't if you are in a confined space with nanas on the ground (aka Diddy on any platform).
MK is even. Wario I don't know, I've only played good ones online and I don't think I've ever lost/and I definately haven't gone to Norfair against them. Olimar is in Olimar's favor but not by to much (at least if you are like me and never really gimp Olimar anyways). Bowser is Diddy's favor as well but not by much because the KO zones are so close on the sides (relative to some of the platforms). Pit is meh. I use to hate this stage because of Pit's arrow camping. However the last tournament I went to a Pit tried the same strategy that I use to hate and I 3 stocked him by just controlling the main platform (and hiding beneith platforms to avoid arrows) and comboing him with lava. Shrug, I'd rather not break it down to much further then that cause then I gotta start giving away strategies. Just test it all out, it works **** well if you just remember to control the lowest platform and make them approach you by tacking on percent. If you have to approach them first grab the lowest platform them leapfrog up to each platform by uthrowing nanas/peanuts/air attacks (ie clear the opponent off, then set up camp, rinse and repeat as you move from platform to platform).

Snake I also am iffy on. I need more time. Snakes biggest blind spot is from just below him and this is one of the few stages you can really take advantage of it. On the negative side are his KO's/grenade camping/grenade stripping.

JesiahTEG · Apr 17, 2009

Wow nice writeup dude.

ADHD · Apr 17, 2009

(Against everyone who isn't olimar or metaknight)

AlphaZealot · Apr 17, 2009

ADHD seems more in line with what I think. MK and Olimar are the only two characters I wouldn't want to go against here. And even MK I'm not really scared against because I know against 90% of MK's I'll make them die/they will die from the stage at least once while I won't die at all (so its basically 2 stock vs my 3 stock, lol).

Ripple · Apr 17, 2009

I feel proud of myself having beat you on it after reading your write up on it and saying you haven't lost there in 4 months

Dyyne · Apr 17, 2009

Good read, and I definitely agree with not going up against oli here from experience (me being the oli though, not the diddy). And I also completely agree with your idea of controlling the bottom platform, which is how I've felt and posted as well in the past.

AlphaZealot · Apr 17, 2009

Player-1: I never did get this stage to work in wifi. Give it a try vs real life opponents.

Bellioes · Apr 17, 2009

This stage has been working well for me too. I once thought that Oli was bad on Norfair but P-1 already corrected me on that (I was beating my bro cause of his inexperience with Oli. Anyways, hes much better on Norfair now and is starting to CP my Diddy there.)
Back on topic, Ive been having trouble with Snake on this stage, especially the campy ones ones who become a real *** here. Any advice would be helpful or is it just not a good stage for fighting Snake.

ADHD · Apr 17, 2009

Snake is easy here, his projectiles aren't that much of a hastle since you have alot of mobility going from platform to platform. Camp under a platform lower than him and spam peanuts until he moves to another one and then repeat XD Grenades are toned down on norfair so you shouldn't have trouble avoiding them.

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

AlphaZealot said:
I would disagree. ZSS/GW/Luigi/Yoshi/TL/Charizard/Link/Lucas should all be at big disadvantages against Diddy there. Simply put, they have to break Diddy's platform zone and they don't really have the tools to do it (view me vs Snakee). Luigi has to play close to you, but he can't if you are in a confined space with nanas on the ground (aka Diddy on any platform).
MK is even. Wario I don't know, I've only played good ones online and I don't think I've ever lost/and I definately haven't gone to Norfair against them. Olimar is in Olimar's favor but not by to much (at least if you are like me and never really gimp Olimar anyways). Bowser is Diddy's favor as well but not by much because the KO zones are so close on the sides (relative to some of the platforms). Pit is meh. I use to hate this stage because of Pit's arrow camping. However the last tournament I went to a Pit tried the same strategy that I use to hate and I 3 stocked him by just controlling the main platform (and hiding beneith platforms to avoid arrows) and comboing him with lava. Shrug, I'd rather not break it down to much further then that cause then I gotta start giving away strategies. Just test it all out, it works **** well if you just remember to control the lowest platform and make them approach you by tacking on percent. If you have to approach them first grab the lowest platform them leapfrog up to each platform by uthrowing nanas/peanuts/air attacks (ie clear the opponent off, then set up camp, rinse and repeat as you move from platform to platform).

Snake I also am iffy on. I need more time. Snakes biggest blind spot is from just below him and this is one of the few stages you can really take advantage of it. On the negative side are his KO's/grenade camping/grenade stripping.

Well before I go on, I'm going to say I'm not talking about the original matchup, I'm talking about how much the stage's advantage gives to each character. Ex: Captain Falcon on Norfair, I still think it's in Diddy's advantage, but the stage helps CF more son than Diddy.

ZSS: helps her recovery, and close spaces, the platforms also help ZSS space her side-b easier.

GaW: Close spaces when on platforms, his smashs and tilts **** here, his recovery is great here, as well as his aerials and amazing aerial control/DI. Dair goes through platforms which hurt sometimes. He lives longer on here most of the time, and you still die at near the same point.

Luigi: Amazing aerial control, the close spaces make it much easier to score kills, or rack up damage for that matter. And what you said about having bananas on the platforms help because they can't move without slipping, it still can be countered quite easily if the player uses L/R/Z to grab bananas upon landing, and characters like Luigi and GaW don't need to touch the ground that much at all.

Yoshi: Heavy character, and great aerials. His Uair is a kill move and being forced upwards to a platform put's you as an easy target. He isn't nearly as gimpable, his Usmash has a huge hitbox. His eggs can go through the platforms, and he can camp great on the stage.

TL: Can camp really well here, and isn't gimped as easily. His fastest killing moves (Usmash and Utilt) don't have that much range which makes it easier on the platforms.

Charizard: The small platforms help his huge hitboxes, up-b is great here, a really good kill move for him and has super armor grames, his flamthrow can hurt you a lot when the lava comes as well.

Link: Link's best stage against Diddy IMO, hard to kill, hard to gimp, aerials are good here, projectiles, etc etc.

Lucas: His huge hitboxes get buffed here, isn't nearly as easy to gimp, and his Nair and Dair are annoying, and his up-b can control the air when lava is around making it more annoying.

MK: not even, nowhere close.

Wario: lives very long, you live a bit longer, but not much. Super armor + close spaces hurt, Uair through platforms ****. He can camp here easily. He can take advantage of the lava probably better than Diddy can.

I could go more in depth with each one, but I feel that what I've already said is enough. Note that I say the close spaces of Norfair give the other character the advantage a lot through that. The only real advantage Diddy gets through it is that the bananas can take up a vast majority of the platform and make it difficult for the opponent to fight you. Most of the characters that I listed have the air game to make this less hurtful to them and more hurtful for you.

Edit: Camping the bottom platform is an important part of this stage for Diddy, I agree strongly on this, but the stage transformations force you to go up where Diddy is weaker against most characters, characters can simply camp you back by sitting on one of the top platforms and you'll get nowhere really.

AlphaZealot · Apr 17, 2009

Every time I fight someone I usually use my one stage ban like this:
Against most characters: Should I ban Rainbow Cruise or should I ban their best CP Stage (if Ike ban Pirate Ship, for example).
Against Snake I usually think: should I ban Norfair or should I ban the CP stage I know they like more than Norfair.

(most) Snakes don't actually like Norfair as a stage. They are good there, but they have better options then using Norfair as a CP against Diddy Kong. I think Snake has three big disadvantages here:
-If you camp the main platform you can hide from grenades beneith the lips of the above platforms.
-Snakes dash attack/mortar slide isn't as useful
-Snake is really weak from hits underneith, if Snake is on a higher platform then you are all that needs to happen is u-throw nana/peanut, then chase the hit with either an air attack or another projectile (if they shielded it). Snakes options for hitting you from below are limited: short hop Dair (won't work if you lead with banana), and...dtilt kinda. Shrug. Not much, and his mobility is limited.

-Snake can though mess things up smart grenade placement, smart C4 use, and patience with lava.
-Snake can also be a demon if he gets the lower platform controlled before you do. His tilt attacks/jabs/nades/c4 allow him to conrol platforms just as good, if not better than, Diddy. So a Snake employing the same bottom-up strategy that I employ as Diddy should hold an advantage.

One thing that may help Diddy is mobility. Diddy can make better use of the lava moving from the sides in the air than Snake can. This means you can try to intercept Snake as he moves between platforms and relocates when the lava comes. On the other hand though Snake can get you into the lavas on the ground super effectively with tilts/jabs. Its hard to say how this offsets, since you are on the ground more than the air its likely Snakes favor.

EDIT: ADHD covered this. As I mentioned earlier I'm still learning this against Snake, so I'm gonna take ADHD's advice. He actually had the conclusion I thought seems likely-use mobility to your advantage and attack Snake in his blind spot below, but I thought grenades would be worse then apparently they are. Shrug. Gotta practice it.

xoxokev · Apr 17, 2009

...you forgot about ness

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

AlphaZealot said:
Every time I fight someone I usually use my one stage ban like this:
Against most characters: Should I ban Rainbow Cruise or should I ban their best CP Stage (if Ike ban Pirate Ship, for example).
Against Snake I usually think: should I ban Norfair or should I ban the CP stage I know they like more than Norfair.

(most) Snakes don't actually like Norfair as a stage. They are good there, but they have better options then using Norfair as a CP against Diddy Kong. I think Snake has three big disadvantages here:
-If you camp the main platform you can hide from grenades beneith the lips of the above platforms.
-Snakes dash attack/mortar slide isn't as useful
-Snake is really weak from hits underneith, if Snake is on a higher platform then you are all that needs to happen is u-throw nana/peanut, then chase the hit with either an air attack or another projectile (if they shielded it). Snakes options for hitting you from below are limited: short hop Dair (won't work if you lead with banana), and...dtilt kinda. Shrug. Not much, and his mobility is limited.

-Snake can though mess things up smart grenade placement, smart C4 use, and patience with lava.
-Snake can also be a demon if he gets the lower platform controlled before you do. His tilt attacks/jabs/nades/c4 allow him to conrol platforms just as good, if not better than, Diddy. So a Snake employing the same bottom-up strategy that I employ as Diddy should hold an advantage.

One thing that may help Diddy is mobility. Diddy can make better use of the lava moving from the sides in the air than Snake can. This means you can try to intercept Snake as he moves between platforms and relocates when the lava comes. On the other hand though Snake can get you into the lavas on the ground super effectively with tilts/jabs. Its hard to say how this offsets, since you are on the ground more than the air its likely Snakes favor.

EDIT: ADHD covered this. As I mentioned earlier I'm still learning this against Snake, so I'm gonna take ADHD's advice. He actually had the conclusion I thought seems likely-use mobility to your advantage and attack Snake in his blind spot below, but I thought grenades would be worse then apparently they are. Shrug. Gotta practice it.

Well I've never played Snake here, that's why I don't know for sure if it would have a huge advantage for him, but on paper I can seem him being really good here.

-C4 hurts you more, it doesn't get destroyed by the lava or anything.
-Grenades, are easier to avoid, BUT remember Snake can make the grenades drop in midair and land right next to you if you're camping under a platform.
-Ftilt and Utilt are easier to land
-Fsmash 's hitbox goes slightly through platforms, can be used as a mindgame, still not that great

gtg for a sec, but more to come on this, AiB playoff match, wish me luck =)

Count · Apr 17, 2009

AZ thanks for the tip to NOT ban norfair, I did that in pools and it was dumb.

Don't listen to P1, ban rainbow cruise!!

(or whoever the other chars best stage is)

ADHD · Apr 17, 2009

Snake can kill really easily on the higher platforms though

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

Rainbow is more sexy than Norfair ever will be

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

Double post.

Well in my AiB playoff match I faced a Wario user who CPed me to Norfair, and I won. Although I won, I still don't think it to be a good CP against Wario. IMO you just ban it. I did use some of the tips in here so thanks for that. Btw, I'm going to have vids of me vs Ally and Kryst(Wario player I played) up BUT IT's ON WIFI, but still. I also think some vids of me verses OCC (ROB player) up soon to.

Anyway back to snake
-Harder to KO Snake
-The mine Snake has gets buffed a whole lot, close spaces, and you can be forced into it when the lava rises.
-Harder to gimp Snake, but you can give him more damage while he's recovering
-His Nair/Uair/Bair get buffed

PhantomX · Apr 17, 2009

Just saying, there's no such thing as a good Wario on WiFi.

I hope that Diddys counterpick me here ^_^

TwentyTwo · Apr 17, 2009

I'm not a diddy, and i'm just really stopping by, but I like your style of thought AZ, a lot of characters seem to think they do bad on a stage, just because they have to adjust their style from the norm. I had a write up on rainbow cruise and Snake, and how it's not a bad stage for him. It seems very well thought out, I always ban norfair, but I'll be sure to do it against diddys now

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

PhantomX said:
Just saying, there's no such thing as a good Wario on WiFi.

I hope that Diddys counterpick me here ^_^

I have a harder time playing Wario's on wifi than offline, maybe it's just me and one of my weaknesses, but air camping gets such a huge buff over wifi =/, offline i can handle it a lot easier

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2009

TwentyTwo said:
I'm not a diddy, and i'm just really stopping by, but I like your style of thought AZ, a lot of characters seem to think they do bad on a stage, just because they have to adjust their style from the norm. I had a write up on rainbow cruise and Snake, and how it's not a bad stage for him. It seems very well thought out, I always ban norfair, but I'll be sure to do it against diddys now

Only MK is bad on RC. RC is Diddy's best stage <3

Bellioes · Apr 17, 2009

I really dont like Rainbow too much.
And actually, as AZ said, Snake is so good at controlling the bottom platform I cant approach him at all. He has so nades, C$, mines but whats really giving me trouble is is Usmash. It comes out pretty fast when hyphen smashed so its easy for Snake to control the air with it.
I cant approach from above so I try to go from the side platforms. He controls the side platforms with his nades of course but his Nair is more effective at controlling them and giving me a lot of trouble. It has a long duration and the last hits you away so you cant punish the lag. And if he misses, he can just DI away from the platform and land on the middle one with no lag (if you try to run in here, youll eat a Utilt in the face)
After learning my lesson about the platforms, I tried going directly from the side. I would SideB from edge to edge but when ever I tried to actually get onto the middle platform, Id eat a FTilt or a C4/mine depending on which side he planted them. I know I could easily shield them but whenever I tried, hed grab me (especially if I shielded a mine) and throw me back out or tech chase me (since the platform is small, its a lot easier for snake to predict/limit your movements here)
I tried camping with peanuts and throwing bananas down but his nades and Usmash clank with my bananas and when I peanut camp, he just hides under a platform with charged Usmashs and nades and then uses his ForwardB under the cover of his projectiles. Its easy to dodge but I cant apprach snake AT ALL HERE.

I always ban it but BF gives me just as much trouble (well actually a less but its still a hard fight) And then I hear hes good on Brinstar too.
I guess with more experience against Snakes, I could win but for now, it looks to me like an unwinnable matchup on paper.

gtg now so Ill read what you guys think of this later Bye

PhantomX · Apr 17, 2009

Player-1 said:
I have a harder time playing Wario's on wifi than offline, maybe it's just me and one of my weaknesses, but air camping gets such a huge buff over wifi =/, offline i can handle it a lot easier

Aircamping sucks, I've always said this.

Coyn3Masta · Apr 17, 2009

i find rainbow cruise as a better stage lol, it may just be a personal preference. Also, it sucks so bad if snake has control over the middle platform in norfair, if you can keep/take control over norfair then i would say don't ban it o.O

Le_THieN · Apr 17, 2009

I've been doing exceedingly well on Norfair lately as well. Here's some more video evidence to bolster AZ's claims:

UTZ Zac (G&W) vs. Le THieN (Diddy) #10: Norfair

I've recently experienced some major zoning and trapping success on Norfair's bottom platform, although the crux of my strategy on this stage doesn't actually revolve around that. People who counter-pick this stage against Diddy Kongs know that his typical offensive capabilities will be a great deal more muted on Norfair's staggered platforms. Diddy simply can't match the aerial versatility of some of the other characters he's likely to go up against on this stage (Meta Knight, G&W), so opponents often usually take advantage of this by being aggressive.

So what has my solution been? - I run.

I run hard, and I run fast.

Smashed Monkey Flips become my best friend on this stage and helps me cut through the air at a decent horizontal pace. This is also pretty instrumental when I'm being chased around the stage, as I start plucking banana peels to cover my tracks and dissuade direct confrontation. It helps you reach any of the six ledges with ease and relative safety, and reverses aerial momentum on the turn of the dime. It's really useful in punishing your opponent's rush-down attempts when they least expect it, and also let's you weave through the air when it is well-spaced and mixed up with your second jump.

Glide-tossing's utility is somewhat diminished here, although it still has its uses in maintaining control of the bottom platform. Other than that, though, punishing aggression is the name of my game on this stage.

Despite these nifty pros that have emerged in Diddy's game on this stage, Norfair is still not something I would call one of Diddy's natural counter-picks. I feel that there are still a handful of crucial characters that fare a great deal better than he does on Norfair, and I would much rather just spring these tricks on my opponents as a surprise factor rather than use it as an active CP. Lately, my weapons of choice have been Battlefield and Delfino Plaza.

Hylian · Apr 17, 2009

Why didn't you use Diddy against me on norfair? >_<.

Le_THieN · Apr 17, 2009

Hylian said:
Why didn't you use Diddy against me on norfair? >_<.

I was kind of shocked our first match went to timer, so it kind of deflated my drive to win for the rest of the set. It felt like a good time to dust off my Zelda. =)

Darknid · Apr 18, 2009

how is Snake weak from hits underneath? He can just nade shield and you will get hit instead, or he can nade drop and jump to a higher platform, maybe whole planting C4

DelxDoom · Apr 18, 2009

Hey, we should get a sort of percentage guide that shows us when to get hit by lava and when it would kill us.

Down B (the move) is really good here since the platforms are all quite small. Its slow arc makes it a great techchaser and it is basically more effective here.

same goes for Side B; it'll grab often on the short platforms.

controlling the bottom portion is important and it's pretty easy for Diddy ;D

I just don't like the stage in general, but i can see why this is good for Diddy.

TreK · Apr 18, 2009

Does hitting the door of the capsule thingy refresh your moves ?

DelxDoom · Apr 19, 2009

I would say yes.

tibs7 · Apr 26, 2009

this is most definately true. i beat a metaknight and a marth on this stage pretty convincingly, the info provided helped sooo much =)

Jigglymaster · Apr 27, 2009

Inui and the rest of NJ banned Norfair cause they hate it. So norfair is out of the question for me.

Nope · May 5, 2009

AZ I would be more then happy to have Norfair battles this Thursday if you decide to come down! Cake and I have played this more then enough times and it really comes down to who gets the early lead with Snake vs Diddy here. It's true that snake doesn't do bad here but the lava really tends to hurt his game since he has to move around so much on this stage.

Veggi · May 5, 2009

A lot of the pros for this stage seem to be the same on Jungle Japes. Actually, I think most if not all of them are, just replace lava with Klap Trap. It would help with his easily gimped recovery as well, if I'm correct, Diddy mainly KO's off the sides, so the high roof would be good for him.

Any thoughts?

Player-1 · May 5, 2009

Veggi said:
A lot of the pros for this stage seem to be the same on Jungle Japes. Actually, I think most if not all of them are, just replace lava with Klap Trap. It would help with his easily gimped recovery as well, if I'm correct, Diddy mainly KO's off the sides, so the high roof would be good for him.

Any thoughts?

high roofs aren't at all good for diddy, you can DI Diddy's smash attacks upwards and live MUCH longer. I actually played a DK on this stage before and he lived from a FRESH Dsmash from the first hit (the strong hit) but DIing upwards on this stage. He also lived from a klap trap at 70% >.>

Dark Ryu · May 5, 2009

Veggi said:
A lot of the pros for this stage seem to be the same on Jungle Japes. Actually, I think most if not all of them are, just replace lava with Klap Trap. It would help with his easily gimped recovery as well, if I'm correct, Diddy mainly KO's off the sides, so the high roof would be good for him.

Any thoughts?

Falco and we can't survive from the river nearly as easy as others can. Not a good stage for diddy.

Norfair is One of Diddy Kong's Best Stages

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