New AT- Retreating Pivot Grab

Remzi · May 14, 2009

A few weeks back, I discovered this AT.

I posted it on the Marth boards, you can read the topic here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231916

And here is a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tq0ubY58tI

In essence, what you are doing is linking a true pivot to a pivot grab. So if done correctly, you will dash forward and then immediately retreat back with a sliding pivot grab. So, basically what it allows you to do is use pivot grabs as an approach rather than just a "mindgame," close range option, or spot dodge punisher.

It takes A LOT of technical ability to pull off consistently compared to most other techs in this game.

My original thread explains some other utilities for it, but I truly think this tech has some potential and I'd like for other character boards to explore it's possibilities.

As far as I know, the only character boards that have delved into this tech are:

Marth (obv), Falco, D3, Diddy, and Kirby.

D3 and Falco are looking into possibly using this tech to extend their chain grabs, and the Falcos have even branched it into a retreating up smash instead.

I'm not gonna do a big write up here because I pretty much explained all I know about it in the vid and in my old thread.

Bellioes provided relative slide lengths for each characters Quick Pivot Grab, which tend to be quite similar to the slides produced using this technique. Click here to see that list.

Again, what I'm asking is for people to do is explore uses for this tech and find out other utilities. I'm curious as to what other characters besides Marth can do with it, thats where you come in.

Thanks for reading. Comments, questions? Post them here.

brinboy789 · May 14, 2009

gives you a huge extra boost :O

SexTornado · May 14, 2009

Nice find I guess.

tEhrXXz0r · May 14, 2009

Wow, good stuff. :O

B!squick · May 14, 2009

Bowser Boards are looking into something similar to this, using a pivot grab to regrab during a ground release. Works on several characters, even infinites MK.

Remzi · May 14, 2009

Yea JayDeth I've been reading up on that. I hope it works reliably. Maybe you could use this tech to make in an infinite on more characters?

Also, I just realized. This probably means Marth infinites Ness and Lucas again xD

Lazee · May 14, 2009

Does this mean dede can retreat pivot grab infinite anyone he can normally cg? In my mind I'm seing dedede chaingrab and the person go forward and dedede brings them back with the reverse,which essentially brings them back to the same distance? Or am I missing something

Jski · May 15, 2009

For the life of me i cant get this to work but it could be that my hands are not fast enofe to input the commands in time? Any suggestion to work this?

Saltix · May 15, 2009

I've known this for quite a while with Falco, but I thought it was known.
Good work nonetheless.
I didn't think other characters had good use for this

rathy Aro · May 15, 2009

Lazee said:
Does this mean dede can retreat pivot grab infinite anyone he can normally cg? In my mind I'm seing dedede chaingrab and the person go forward and dedede brings them back with the reverse,which essentially brings them back to the same distance? Or am I missing something

That's what I thought originally, but after testing its obvious that DDD doesn't slide nearly enough to make that possible. It still extends the cg, but definitely does not make it infinite.

OcTIx said:
I've known this for quite a while with Falco, but I thought it was known.
Good work nonetheless.
I didn't think other characters had good use for this

I think you're thinking of boost pivot grab. This is more like true pivot to pivot grab.

Tenki · May 15, 2009

You're actually starting your second dash in that video (since pivot grabs can only be done while running)

The true pivot ends in standing animation.

So it's actually more like, dashdance pivot + pivot grab.

also, calling it the retreating pivot grab kind of overrides the current use of the term, which is simply just running away and doing a pivot grab.

Feint pivot grab sounds cooler ¦3
-----------------------

EDIT:

Somewhere said:
If you don't slide, you're not doing it right

By the way, the slide is more of an issue of HOW you do the pivot grab - that is, the inputs you use.

If you hit [Grab]-[Back] then you'll slide.
If you hit [Back]-[Grab] then you won't slide.

Falcon's pivot grab had some issues like that, except at fulldash, and it was reversed, for some reason lmao.

So the sliding feint grab thing (for Marth) is:

[Forward]-[Back]-[Grab]-[Forward]

Bellioes · May 15, 2009

Also, you dont need to do the dash>wait that BengalsRZ posted in the original thread. You still get the slide and everything so practice doing this without the foxtrot, then add it in when youve got it down. The method he posted is for approaching but this technique works in so many other situations, you dont really need to add it when describing the technique.

Also, as Nintendofreak (I think it was him) said you can do it by just hitting away and then grabbing backwards immediately afterwards. I tested it and hes right. While facing right, just go left> right+grab and youll slide to the left while grabbing right. Makes this technique even more useful cause you pull it off faster and in more situations. I personally started doing this outve dashdances when they get too close.

Hope that cleared up a lot of the confusion people are having on the control inputs.

|RK| · May 15, 2009

I made this topic already. Look for "Momentum Shifting".

goodkid · May 15, 2009

Hmm...I wouldn't say this is new, but its using pivot grab in a different way. Just foxtrot 1 way, then back quickly while pivot grabbing. Its still useful though.

Supermodel From Paris · May 15, 2009

RK Joker said:
I made this topic already. Look for "Momentum Shifting".

Don't you mean you

made this topic already?

Crizthakidd · May 15, 2009

you dont say how we do are supposed to do this. what inputs?

Throwback · May 16, 2009

...you must be joking

auroreon · May 16, 2009

Yoshi loves you for this, he almost forgives you for using Marth... almost.

Tenki · May 16, 2009

Crizthakidd said:
you dont say how we do are supposed to do this. what inputs?

Tenki said:
By the way, the slide is more of an issue of HOW you do the pivot grab - that is, the inputs you use.

If you hit [Grab]-[Back] then you'll slide.
If you hit [Back]-[Grab] then you won't slide.

Falcon's pivot grab had some issues like that, except at fulldash, and it was reversed, for some reason lmao.

So the sliding feint grab thing (for Marth) is:

[Forward]-[Back]-[Grab]-[Forward]

The Sauce Boss · May 17, 2009

Hmm... An AT thread that didn't turn out to be complete s***. Kudos. I'll have to give it a try.

The Nameless Wanderer · May 17, 2009

Can every character perform this?

Bellioes · May 17, 2009

Tenki that isnt the way to do it.
You dont hit grab before you hit forward. They should be a the SAME time. And the slide is more like WHEN you hit pivot. If you do it right after the true pivot youll slide. But if you wait to long and your character actually moves in the opposite direction as the grab, then youll just a do a regular pivot grab.

EDIT: Yes everyone can do this. Well almost everyone. Some dont get a slide. Check my list in the OP.

Tenki · May 17, 2009

Bellioes said:
the slide is more like WHEN you hit pivot. If you do it right after the true pivot youll slide. But if you wait to long and your character actually moves in the opposite direction as the grab, then youll just a do a regular pivot grab.

That's right. You have to gain some momentum before the slide is even possible at all.

Bellioes said:
Tenki that isnt the way to do it.
You dont hit grab before you hit forward. They should be a the SAME time.

All of it is done rather quickly.

The timing is so tight that it'd feel like the same time, but there are a few frames for both hitting [Grab] first and hitting [Back] that you can input the other one and begin a pivot grab instead of say, doing a dash turnaround or a regular dashgrab.

Like, from a different perspective, it's nearly impossible to hit [Grab] and [Back] "at the exact same time" unless 1) you hit them both exactly on the same frame, or 2) you're already holding one of the other inputs, so they obviously gave a time period for you to input the other one.

disclaimer: it's absolutely fine if this makes no sense lol vvvvvvvvvv

I'm just speculating at this point, but it might have been something like this:

case 1 - hitting Back first
[Dash/Run state]
[You hit [Back] ]
[Begin turnaround state]
[Turnaround state]
[If player hits [Grab] within 5 frames, do pivot grab] [Else, continue turnaround]

case 2 - hitting Grab first
[Dash/Run state]
[You hit [Grab] ]
[If player does not hit [Back] in 5 frames, begin dash grab] [Else, if player hits [Back], do pivot grab]

edit:
come to think of it, that'd explain why Falcon's pivot grab slide is dependent on the order you hit them -

if you hit [Back] first (for Falcon), it starts his turnaround state but cancels it with a pivot grab, and that gives him a slide kind of like when you do a pivot U-smash (hydroplane) with Squirtle. If you do a straight up pivot grab from running, it stops Falcon lol.

blukberry · May 17, 2009

Oh Ok I get what your saying
But what your explaing is a regular pivot grab. You dont go into the dash/run animation when doing this technique. If your facing right, just go left and then before your character even starts moving left, hit back+grab. But I think your right in that you can hit grab and then right or right and then grab. Itll just feel like your hitting them at the same time.

EDIT: This Bellioes lol Forgot to logout of my bros account.

Tenki · May 18, 2009

blukberry said:
Oh Ok I get what your saying
But what your explaing is a regular pivot grab. You dont go into the dash/run animation when doing this technique.

yeah you do, sort of.

One of the states that you can perform a pivot grab in is the initial dash (foxtrot) state. When you hit [forward]-[back] that quickly, you start a foxtrot forward, cancel it with a foxtrot backwards, then cancel that with a pivot grab.

The thing I described before was a pivot grab out of fulldash ("regular" pivot grab?).

After a tiny bit of testing (though I'm sure that there was a comprehensive thread somewhere that might have already mapped this out), I think the foxtrot pivot grabs work like this, since you can't do the turnaround during a foxtrot:

(A) [hold back] --> [grab any time while holding back during the foxtrot]
(B) [grab] --> [tap back quickly after hitting grab]

(A) stops your foxtrot's movement and begins a pivot grab.
(B) normally would do a dashgrab, so it normally slides as long as you have enough speed. But if you tap back, it starts a pivot grab with the slide the dashgrab would have had.

blukberry · May 18, 2009

The technique you were describing is yeah the regular pivot grab where you pivot grab outve a run. As for doing this technique, what turnaround are you talking about. The slow one (the one outve a run which you cant do as you said outve a foxtrot) or the true pivot (which CAN be done outve a foxtrot) Because the one used int this technique is a true pivot. Its basically as BengalRZ said 'A true pivoted pivot grab'
You do forward>back immediately afterwards (the true pivot part)> forward+grab (the pivot grab part). Whether theres a slight delay between hitting grab and forward or vice versa, in the end it doesnt really matter cause you get the same effect both ways (grabbing forward while sliding backwards)

EDIT: LOL once again this is Bellioes ^_^

ACCELERATE · May 18, 2009

Sigh Dedede is gonna be even more annoying now...

Tenki · May 18, 2009

blukberry said:
The technique you were describing is yeah the regular pivot grab where you pivot grab outve a run. As for doing this technique, what turnaround are you talking about. The slow one (the one outve a run which you cant do as you said outve a foxtrot) or the true pivot (which CAN be done outve a foxtrot) Because the one used int this technique is a true pivot. Its basically as BengalRZ said 'A true pivoted pivot grab'
You do forward>back immediately afterwards (the true pivot part)> forward+grab (the pivot grab part). Whether theres a slight delay between hitting grab and forward or vice versa, in the end it doesnt really matter cause you get the same effect both ways (grabbing forward while sliding backwards)

EDIT: LOL once again this is Bellioes ^_^

1) It isn't a "true pivot", at least the way I understand it - The True Pivot is like, the golden grail of spacing since it ends you in standing position (you can tilt in any direction, or do pretty much ANY move out of it). This one is basically the "dash dance"/foxtrot pivot, and it ends in foxtrot state (you can F-smash, dashgrab, pivot grab, side-B, up-B, jump+aerial, or roll)

2) It does matter for some characters, including Marth.

In case you didn't catch it, this one (my 2nd post about inputs) was about doing pivot grabs out of Foxtrot (the pivot grab done here).

Tenki said:
I think the foxtrot pivot grabs work like this, since you can't do the turnaround during a foxtrot:

(A) [hold back] --> [grab any time while holding back during the foxtrot]
(B) [grab] --> [tap back quickly after hitting grab]

(A) stops your foxtrot's movement and begins a pivot grab.
(B) normally would do a dashgrab, so it normally slides as long as you have enough speed. But if you tap back, it starts a pivot grab with the slide the dashgrab would have had.

That one.

Bellioes · May 18, 2009

Well the foxtrot pivot is a true pivot. You can tilt outve a dash dance too

And you dont end up in the standing animation after the true pivot. Its just that whenyou turn around during the initial dash animation (like when you dash dance) there are a couple of frames where youre in the standing animation. You can input any move during tis time and your character will perform it. Thats why I dont understand why you think the DD pivot and the true pivot are different things

Also, I think were talking about different things for the timing of the grab. The technique in this thread that BengalRZ dicovered (the tru pivotted pivot grab) requires a pivot grab which means pressing grab and back at the same time. A true pivotted pivot grab does not change how to perform it. You still hit them at the same time.

So I really dont get how pivot grabbing during a dash dance can change dependng on when you hit grab???

WoodyWiggins · May 23, 2009

This AT looks an awful lot like a Wavebounce. I hope it doesn't suffer the same fate.

stingers · May 23, 2009

WoodyWiggins said:
This AT looks an awful lot like a Wavebounce. I hope it doesn't suffer the same fate.

...

What?

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean :laugh:

Remzi · May 23, 2009

No Tenki, this is a true pivot. If you try this out of a fox trot you will dash dance.

I'm starting to see some light for this technique btw, I'll talk about it later.

xXTACXx · May 23, 2009

Nice find but its a shame i use a tether to grab i would have enjoyed this

.

Bellioes · May 23, 2009

Actually, fox trotting is just movement with just the initial dash animation. But if you try to turn around during the initial dash animation, youll do a true pivot. The dash dance is a bunch of true pivots in a row.

If you turn around after the initial dash animation, youll go into a regular pivot where your character slides and takes a long time to change directions.

Also, this has noting to do with wavebouncing. You dont even leave the ground

WoodyWiggins · May 24, 2009

stingers135 said:
...

What?

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean

Lol, no one really uses the Wavebounce. I have a feeling a lot people will use the "too many buttons excuse", and this AT will fall off the wayside.

Bellioes said:
Also, this has noting to do with wavebouncing. You dont even leave the ground

This AT looks like a grounded Wavebounce. A Wavebounce is basically a retreating special, right?

AnDaLe · May 24, 2009

has anyone posted any vids of this with D3 or falco?

Rubyiris · May 24, 2009

This has been known about since like the first week Bawrl came out. =\

Popertop · May 24, 2009

oh my ****ing god this is not a ****ing AT you dumb *** **** *****es

it's a ****ing STRATEGY with certain CHARACTERS, it's not an AT, it's not hard at all shut the **** UP PLEASE

demonictoonlink · May 24, 2009

^
At least you remained calm...

Popertop · May 24, 2009

demonictoonlink said:
^
At least you remained calm...

LOL

this was the response I least expected

New AT- Retreating Pivot Grab

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