Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

Berserker. · Dec 12, 2009

Well I know Bowser's Oos whirling fortress but Bowser has better options like jab and plus with flame + combo ability, you can quickly rack up damage. Plus I'm not sure but can stone break through WF (Whriling fortress)

Pink murder · Dec 12, 2009

I knew most of what fromundaman said, with the exception of the Side-b canceling the lag. The only problem is that none of those really make too much of a difference in the MU... Well a few of them do, but they have already been mentioned before, and we still think we win by a landslide. (Like the killing early part).

I also didn't know that acquiring his fire-breath was all that useful. I always thought it was best to leave inhale open -because of the free footstool we get if he breaks free from a Kirbycide.

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Berserker. · Dec 12, 2009

Copy his ability if you wanna rack up damage but in cases of kills, go for footstools

Kewkky · Dec 12, 2009

Well, we could always down-taunt the copy ability if we found out that we could punish the bowser with kirbicides. Not like it's hard getting Bowser with a surprise inhale, his moveset has hitboxes too close to his hurtbox.

Berserker. · Dec 12, 2009

So your saying Bowser has short range because the hitboxes are close to his hurtbox? We should take advantage of that

Pink murder · Dec 13, 2009

I'm pretty sure we do take advantage of that xP

I don't know; I'd still prefer having inhale open. IMO, Inhale -> spit/grab is pretty useful in this MU, and of course there's the recovering Kirbycide -which if we have Bowser's fire, we can't D-taunt it out.

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Ledger_Damayn · Dec 13, 2009

But the attack is so funny and lol-effective on his recovery!

Kewkky · Dec 13, 2009

berserker01 said:
So your saying Bowser has short range because the hitboxes are close to his hurtbox? We should take advantage of that

He does have short range in his moves, but he has some surprising range on others as well. The trick is to know when an inhale will hit due to Bowser not being able touse his long-ranged moves at that time. It won't be hard doing a kirbicide nor a copy on him, and if we get an inhale and jump off the stage, that's it for Bowser 100% of the time.

And yeah, stringing and comboing shenanigans, like I said (and others as well) before. Utilts, throws, bairs, and especially dtilts since they can knock Bowser off the stage if he's got his back on the ledges (where we dominate him). Bowser might have some tricks up his sleeve, but it's nothing that would take us and destroy us if we keep an eye out for them, as with any other MU... Just try and get into Bowser when his aerials leave him in cooldown (after their hitboxes disappears, but they still have animations out) before he sideBs to cancel his lag, as soon as he attacks on the ground with any moves (approach with a grab or a dash attack, since they're both fast), or is flying/ lands after upB'ing out of your strings.

Lord Viper · Dec 13, 2009

☆ It's so fun to grab combo Bowser until he's at 60+. <3 ☆

Berserker. · Dec 14, 2009

I wonder how many u-tilts we can do to Bowser starting from 0%

How about this combo?
U-tilt-->U-tilt-->U-tilt-->F-throw-->U-air-->U-air

Lord Viper · Dec 14, 2009

☆ That would depend, how will you make him land on the ground for a repeat string? ☆

phi1ny3 · Dec 14, 2009

lol t1mmy should know this MU from playing Kevin

and lol Bowser will almost never use upB in the air unless to recover, he'll probably use it to stuff non projectile attempts, be very careful about spotdodging or rolling around Bowser on the ground. imo this upB oos > Marth's and almost on par with MKs, and I frankly think most people don't see that which is dumb (safer on block, does more damage and kills about the same percent, pretty safe at mid percents when the opponent can't come retaliate in time, and the ability to be less limited in terms of protection really helps + what it can do with mixups).

Ledger_Damayn · Dec 14, 2009

Didn't every single person so far mention that OoS Fortress was the primary (and possibly only) thing you have to watch out for? Lol.

phi1ny3 · Dec 14, 2009

I could agree with that lol

In all seriousness, I'd watch out for klaw if you're going for grabs, though bair takes care of that pretty well, ftilt is actually a pretty good anti-air measure bowser has, be very careful where you land from it.
Don't get grabbed, it's very possible to do in this MU, but be careful.
Don't throw out bair carelessly, fair will be mean to you.

Also don't ever get read by a bowser underneath you, uair is a ridiculous kill move that works on people who don't know how to play the MU lol, and it's definitely avoidable for Kirby.

Kewkky · Dec 14, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
I could agree with that lol

In all seriousness, I'd watch out for klaw if you're going for grabs, though bair takes care of that pretty well, ftilt is actually a pretty good anti-air measure bowser has, be very careful where you land from it.
Don't get grabbed, it's very possible to do in this MU, but be careful.
Don't throw out bair carelessly, fair will be mean to you.

Also don't ever get read by a bowser underneath you, uair is a ridiculous kill move that works on people who don't know how to play the MU lol, and it's definitely avoidable for Kirby.

I agree with all of this. Bowser's aerials can be damaging (watch out for his uair), so try and avoid them whenever you can.

Although, you said something that made me think this MU got easier... Bowser will never use upB in the air unless to recover? I think he SHOULD use it as a combo breaker and aim for the ledges whenever he can, so as to avoid our strings. : \

Berserker. · Dec 15, 2009

Ledger_Damayn said:
Didn't every single person so far mention that OoS Fortress was the primary (and possibly only) thing you have to watch out for? Lol.

Uhhh, that's one of Bowser's better options but I'm 100% sure they would use jab since it's fast.

jiovanni007 · Dec 15, 2009

berserker01 said:
Uhhh, that's one of Bowser's better options but I'm 100% sure they would use jab since it's fast.

upB OoS has more knockback and therefore gives boozer a bit more breathing room. Bowser is big and slow moving so he's gonna want his opponent to be far away so he can try to control the pace of the match. Assuming that said opponent is projectile-less which we happen to be.

fromundaman · Dec 15, 2009

True, but a predicted fortress is more punishable than his jab, which is his only real disjoinct (along with Fair) and a fast attack.

Also, his moves are generally slow, but his tilts have fast-ish startup with high ending lag, whereas his smashes are mostly high start-up lag. Just a heads up to know how to punish what.

Also, just want to say that I was just pointing out his positives, that seemed to be mostly ignored (Other than Fortress). The main point in MU discussions, IMO, is to know what the other character can do to you and how to play against him. There is no doubt, in my mind, nor it seems anyone else's, that Kirby has a large advantage here.

Berserker. · Dec 16, 2009

jiovanni007 said:
upB OoS has more knockback and therefore gives boozer a bit more breathing room. Bowser is big and slow moving so he's gonna want his opponent to be far away so he can try to control the pace of the match. Assuming that said opponent is projectile-less which we happen to be.

Wut? Wut? Wut? Wut? Wut?

Bowser is faster than Kirby

Phiddlesticks · Dec 16, 2009

Pink murder said:
He also has that suicide throw, but I don't think it's too much of a problem.

Ledger_Damayn said:
His ranged moved are very slow (Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash lol)... Idk if Bowser can do more than grab release -> jab combo on Kirby, I've never been regrabbed before.

He IS excellent at punishing defensive options, but in this matchup, we really have no reason to be on the defensive ever. Most Bowser kills are outright kills, since his recovery is too lol to pull off anything fancy off stage, so how many opportunities should he have to punish air dodges?

berserker01 said:
Well I know Bowser's Oos whirling fortress but Bowser has better options like jab and plus with flame + combo ability, you can quickly rack up damage. Plus I'm not sure but can stone break through WF (Whriling fortress)

★Viper said:
☆ It's so fun to grab combo Bowser until he's at 60+. <3 ☆

berserker01 said:
I wonder how many u-tilts we can do to Bowser starting from 0%

How about this combo?
U-tilt-->U-tilt-->U-tilt-->F-throw-->U-air-->U-air

berserker01 said:
Uhhh, that's one of Bowser's better options but I'm 100% sure they would use jab since it's fast.

After carefully considering all of these points I can definitely agree that this is a 70-30 matchup.

Berserker. · Dec 16, 2009

It's a 70:30 Kirby obviously the conclusion (lol)

fromundaman · Dec 16, 2009

Don't let that make you careless though. A good Bowser can definitely surprise you. If that happens, don't get intimidated: It will make you make mistakes, and he can punish those hard.

That being said, I agree with the ratio, unless he has some good grab release shenanigans on Kirby, in which I'd put it at 65-35.

Berserker. · Dec 16, 2009

It's a 70:30 because A1 didn't bother putting a 65:35 (Slight large adv) and only put 60:40

Kewkky · Dec 16, 2009

If Bowser's dtilt comes out on 10 frames or less, then he has that shenanigan on Kirby. If not, then all he has on grab releases is his jab combo.

And berserker01, by "bowser is slow", we don't mean movement, but how long he takes to throw out attacks. Unlike many other characters, Bowser commits himself into almost his whole moveset, and is vulnerable between attacks (right when a hitbox ends and before the next one starts, for example). That's what people usually mean by "slow"... Bowser may have a great dash speed and decent horizontal movement, but how will that help you if you can't get into a wall of attacks?

MK26 · Dec 16, 2009

i know bowser has fair guaranteed out of air release
ftilt and maybe dtilt out of ground release, and regrab for sure

Kewkky · Dec 16, 2009

MK26 said:
i know bowser has fair guaranteed out of air release
ftilt and maybe dtilt out of ground release, and regrab for sure

Regrab if we don't DI the ground release so that we gain the most distance when he does release us, or if we don't air-release by exploiting Bowser's slow pummel speed. So, we pretty much have the same shenanigans as every other character that he can grab.

He has a frame 6 grab, right? I'm pretty sure that there's something that's been preventing Bowsers from ground-releasing people into re-grabs, since no one really talks about grab>groundrelease>grab and instead everyone talks about groundrelease>jab.

SkylerSilver · Dec 16, 2009

Wait. Cant Bowser DI most of Kirby's strings?

Ledger_Damayn · Dec 16, 2009

SkylerSilver said:
Wait. Cant Bowser DI most of Kirby's strings?

Yeah... that is inherently why they are called "strings." But unless he's willing to go to freefall from Up+B, or if he's at high enough percentage to jump out, he is pretty likely to be combo'd due to his size and weight.

Vex Kasrani · Dec 16, 2009

Grab release Klaw. Also Bowser CAN grab release regrab.

Also the matchup isnt really that awful, IMO around 6:4 Kirby favor but 65:35 isn't THAT much different so I won't debate it.

Berserker. · Dec 16, 2009

Wait....

We're forgetting something, bowser can bowsercide and plus flying slam has lesser start up than inhale so?

Vex Kasrani · Dec 17, 2009

berserker01 said:
Wait....

We're forgetting something, bowser can bowsercide and plus flying slam has lesser start up than inhale so?

And I believe Klaw beats kirby's inhale in a head to head collision (as in both moves are out and being used against each other)

Kewkky · Dec 17, 2009

berserker01 said:
Wait....

We're forgetting something, bowser can bowsercide and plus flying slam has lesser start up than inhale so?

We're not gonna inhale him offstage, we'd much rather just bair/dair Bowser while he tries to make it back to the stage, that way we don't risk death. Plus, his klaw outanging our inhale shouldn't really matter much since we'd mostly use it on-stage as a punisher, or from the ledges.

Berserker. · Dec 17, 2009

Oh you got a point there.

Not only one bowser will help so I'll call the others.

fromundaman · Dec 17, 2009

Hey Vex, since I'm not really sure of zho he can and can't regrab, was your post to say he can regrab Kirby, or just can regrab some characters in general? (Also, french keyboards suck.)

phi1ny3 · Dec 18, 2009

Bowser can regrab almost everyone on the ground (I think the main exception is DK)

He can also regrab a lot of characters from an air release.

Kewkky · Dec 18, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
Bowser can regrab almost everyone on the ground (I think the main exception is DK)

He can also regrab a lot of characters from an air release.

Why don't Bowsers do this whenever they get grabs, then? I always see them jabbing people away, and no one ever mentions Bowser's grab releases>grabs. There's SOMETHING that makes it moot in matches... : |

jiovanni007 · Dec 18, 2009

That was my thought, one person I play with plays boozer for low tier and always jabs.

phi1ny3 · Dec 18, 2009

Because the timing's really strict, and is influenced by your opponent.

Most can only do 1-2 regrabs at most, and don't want to risk them air releasing which is tougher to get the options out and would rather get the guaranteed damage right there via sideB.

Vex Kasrani said:
Update by next week hopefully : )

I did alot of testing and came up with many grab release's for Bowser, I in no way, copied grab release stuff from other threads, that being said. I'm still adding data, but I have alot of info right now. Characters like Metaknight and Olimar cannot ground escape from Bowser's grabs, they can only jump escape his grabs, however, if Bowser is grab jabbing the opponent and they try to escape as they're getting hit by jabs then they will ground escape from his grab. This applies for ALL characters.

Jump Grab Release: When a character breaks out of a grab jumping.
Ground Grab Release: When a character breaks out of a grab on the ground.

Allisbrawl

[Jump Grab Release]

* means a character can only jump escape.

Kirby *

Grab release fair

[Ground Grab Release]

** means the character has to mash out as your grabbing jabbing them in order to ground release

Kirby**

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

In this case, Kirby doesn't really get truly grab released to what Bowser wants unless he mashes out. On other characters, most of these options are guaranteed unless they jump out in between grab pummels. In other words, you guys are lucky, and he can't force ground release unless you're being stupid.

Kewkky · Dec 18, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
Because the timing's really strict, and is influenced by your opponent.

Most can only do 1-2 regrabs at most, and don't want to risk them air releasing which is tougher to get the options out and would rather get the guaranteed damage right there via sideB.

In this case, Kirby doesn't really get truly grab released to what Bowser wants unless he mashes out. On other characters, most of these options are guaranteed unless they jump out in between grab pummels. In other words, you guys are lucky, and he can't force ground release unless you're being stupid.

Nice info, and makes me happy Kirby is special.

I knew there was something wrong with the grab release > regrab stuff... I haven't seen it anywhere, nor have I been able to do it (I use a number of characters well, as well as Bowser... But my tourney mains will always be Kirby/ZSS).

Ledger_Damayn · Dec 18, 2009

I've "heard" about the grab release -> regrab, but I only ever *see* the grab release -> jab/klaw.

Kind of like I keep hearing about this Marth's air release dair spike. Lol, I have yet to see someone actually apply it once.

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