Tiers? (Include an explaination)

New to the boards, wondering what a general tier set up for ssb is.

umm 1 minute no items 4 players usaly endsin a suddendeath maby a tie

What the **** are you two talking about?

What is a general, well accepted Tier layout for Super Smash Bros? I'm guessing it's something like:

[1v1 only (FFA would be diff)]
-TOP-
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness

-MIDDLE-
DK
Yoshi
Mario
Fox
JigglyPuff

-LOW-
Link
Lugi
Samus

Debatable i guess.

Nope, I really don't think that that's the way it is although I do agree that FFA would be different. By the way you forgot Captain Falcon! How could you do that?!

Here's what I think:

**1vs1**

*TOP*
Captain Falcon
Samus
Fox
Link

*MIDDLE*
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Ness
Kirby

*LOW*
DK
Mario
Luigi


Actually it's not very accurate but...

I'm sorry, #1, Link and Samus do not have competitive throws so they could not win any possible match against a roll thrower. The only reason for ness , pika, and kirby being the top tier would revolve around good throw rating. Also, i'd actually put Fox up to upper tier because he has high priority in the right places.

As much as I love putting Ness to good use and feel that on the platform he is one of the best, most prioritized characters; off the platform, he is too often a sitting duck. That lengthy third jump makes him a target for a decent player, no matter what your skill level may be (That PK Thunder only moves so fast).

I suppose I'll add my current list is some semblance of an order:

Top

Pikachu
Fox
Kirby

On these top two, I am a bit conflicted. Their overall speed, power and throwing ability are close enough. The real question is the third jump. Fox's does damage yet Pikachu's is considerably faster.

Middle

Ness
Mario
DK
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
JigglyPuff
Samus

If not for their lame [or absent] third jumps, I'd have rated Falcon and Yoshi higher. I'll probably catch some **** from this from the vets but the truth is Jigglypuff is more a novel character in my opinion than a truly effective one. All in all, the Puff falls a little short in my opinion.

Bottom

Luigi
Link

I honestly can't decide which I like least. It's hard to think that Luigi, a character that falls only slightly short of Mario in most catagories should be rated so low, but I guess that's the nature of Smash. All in all, the characters are well-rounded enough that slight differences appear not so slight through gameplay. Link, while having redeeming qualities such as power and high attack priority is bogged down far too much by lack of speed and lack of a decent third jump.

Also! For those of you who feel the urge to contribute to this topic, I welcome it. However, you MUST include the reasoning for your decision in your post. If you don't, I will be kinda mad...

Sorry, I don't mean to be double posting but I do have quite a lot to say on this topic and now I'll make an explanation to the teirs as I see them.

*TOP*
Captain Falcon
Fox
Samus
Kirby


C.Falcon, Fox and Kirby are in the Top because of several aspects that make them stand out. Speed(C.Falcon and Fox), Agility(All 4), Jump - Attack Combos(All 4) and Power (Samus and partially Kirby.)

Speed and agility is always a very useful aspect in SSB...it's just that kind of game. It actually depends on the player and what he relies on...speed&agility or power&defense.

The "Jump - Attack Combos" are the best for these 4 chars.:
Captain Falcon's jump and "Explosive Air Kick" is "well rounded" and this is because of his agility and recover rate. This also slows down the opponent's recovering (e.g. burns).
Fox's jump and "Thrust Forward" is rather slow but makes up for it with it's power. This also has an affect of slowing down the recover rate but not as much.
Samus's jump with "Multiple Spining" is very useful and that's why it deserves noticing. Not only does it seriously slow down the opponent's recover rate but can be used to hold off other foes using the mines in the air (you've gotta really move your fingers on that one.)
Kirby's jump and "Sword Smash" is actually pretty "horrible" because of the unability to move sideways and diagonaly during the attack. This aspect of it can even finish you off if you aren't careful using it off the edge...but there is also a good side to this, you can always take someone off the edge with Kirby using this smash.

Samus's poor agility and speed (although they're not THAT poor) he makes up with his "power" moves (if oyu can do them right.) Kirby's power depends of course on the character that was asimilated (sucked up) by Kirby. Kirby by himself (just plain Kirby) isn't really a force to be meddled with when talking about power but other aspects make up for that...agility, recover rate and others.

All together the throwing aspect of these 4 is well enough to make it to Top and I guess all the other aspects are up there with it. There don't seem to be problems with the third jump either except for Fox.


*MIDDLE*
Pikachu
Ness
Jigglypuff
Mario
Link


The Middle is filled with those chars mostly becuase of the overall qualities: Speed (not extreme speed but fast enough, except for Link), Power (Link's, Ness's and Jigglypuff's powers aren't that bad) and Even Qualities (Mario, Pickachu and probably all others in here are just plain "OK"...there's just no way to explain this...

Although Link IS slow and lacks a good third jump,in my opinion he barely makes it to Middle but he just has "something"...

All together these 5 are "good" but note that I put "" around good...the third jump and throws are "well enough" to be Middle


*LOW*
DK
Luigi


Well, Luigi is just "not good enough to cut it". This is usually caused by the almost identical attacks between Mario and Luigi. As SLaKKiCHu said, "It's hard to think that Luigi, a character that falls only slightly short of Mario in most catagories should be rated so low, but I guess that's the nature of Smash."

DK just doesn't cut it...His overall qualities are too low to be made up by his power.

All together these are just the "Trash", not to offend anyone but these 2 just don't cut it.

Explanations:

>TOP<

Kirby-
I'd argue is the best edge guarder in the game (and therefore the highest tier-ed character). NO OTHER CHARACTER has a down+a spike THAT COMBOS. The fact that he can easly chase people off the edge of a level really makes him broken. He has very good recovery making him very hard to spike/edge guard. "cheap" is usually the term that comes out when a Kirby master plays with no mercy. Kirby's biggest and str comes with the fact that he has a solid R cancel throw combo, if you block his mid-air left or right drill, you will automaticly be thrown, if you get hit by about 3 hits of his left or right drill, you will again be automaticlly thrown. The only other character that his this kind of move is pikachu, which explain why he is onthe top tier next to kirby. If that wasn't enough kirby even has an air throw (the inhale) that can be extremely cheap like DK's moving throw. For those of you that dont' know already, if you're trying to get back to the edge and have a considerable % built up, you can just inhale you opponent in the air and drop straight down, trading lives, which is looked down upon by many, but still wins matches. Weight is the only thing that keeps him from straight out dominating the game.

Pikachu-
Very good edgeguarding and can go pretty far off the platform to knock an opponent even further away because of his nice recovery. He also has a left and right drill that can be auto comboed into a throw if you use the r cancel method. Many of pikachu's moves are juggle oriented, and his fast jumps and speed make him one of the best juggling characters (taking into most other juggles in the game are avoidable). Juggling with UP+B is useful as well. He also has a projectile that stuns which ends up with a free throw. His jumping projectile is slow moving, which makes it perfect to use every time you jump in for an attack (if they block you throw, if they get hit and stunned you throw). His weight is the only thing that balances out the rest.


That ends my revised top tier. After playing this game rigirously for years now, i'd have to say that edgeguarding and throws win a majority of the intense games between competitve players.

<MIDDLE>
C Falcon- Doesn't have a good throw and has gimpy throw range. His Falcon Punch is pretty much worthless in 1v1 against anybody that knows how to block and roll. He has descent juggles, spikes and slams, but his special moves don't help in this deperment. (still under thought)
DK- Bad recovery, edge guarding bait. His throw keeps him competitive, but shine much more in ffa.
Ness- Bad third jump for 1v1 that is useless on some levels (Saffron City between the buildings). The level really does effect his performancec cause he can recover large amounts of life from the pokemon on saffron city and from the F-Wing in Fox's lvl. His throw shines more in FFA for the same reasons as DKs.
Fox- Bad third jump makes him edge guarding bait, and his throw range seems cut short. His A moves are top notch though, and put him on a juggling level => pikachu. Fox is probably the highest middle tier character, questionably lower upper tier.
Mario- Descent all around, doesn't have any moves that shine when it comes to edgeguarding though.
Jigglypuff- Gimpy throw. Worthless UP+B. Her down a into down b combo is sometimes escapable and will leave you vulnerable. If it weren't for his throw, Jigglypuff might be more then just a novelty middle tier in my book. It's worth noting that he has the biggest shield in the game though.
Yoshi- Uncompetitive throw and a slow roll. His high priority ground moves and down+a in the air move(most dmging move in game) keep him from the bottom tier in my book. The fact that he has a descent air throw makes up for his lack of a good throw.


>BOTTOM<
Link- Horid third jump, poor recovery times, and a weak throw. You're pretty safe against link if you just block the whole time, and throw him every time he is recovering from any of his slow-recovery attacks. Think about it, what can a link player do to a blocking player? If he had a quick-grab-throw, he's probably be a competive 1 on1 character. The one thing i give him kudos for is his boomerang, which is one of the best projectiles because of the amount of control you have over it.

Samus- Another character that is ultimatly doomed because of a slow *** roll and slow throw. Samus's moves actually almost make up for it. Her projectile is easy to predict, and less usefull in 1on1 (ffa is a diff story), her up+b is very good, but if you miss one to a rolling player expect to be punished. Not much more here, but it's debatable if Samus could be put in mid tier or not.

Luigi- His up B is the same thing as jigglypuff's down b, if you miss, expect to be punished. The fact that he has no unescapable combo's with this move pretty much makes it worthless. The only option is to pretty much not try to land this move in 1v1. The fact that he has a throw and a roll means he's possibly a mid tier.

Please object to anything you wish with an explanation.

Originally posted by Nero
Explanations:

<MIDDLE>
C Falcon- Doesn't have a good throw and has gimpy throw range. His Falcon Punch is pretty much worthless in 1v1 against anybody that knows how to block and roll. He has descent juggles, spikes and slams, but his special moves don't help in this deperment. (still under thought)Please object to anything you wish with an explanation.

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Well I don't agree about C.Falcon's throwing(yeah, I know that everyone expected me to protect C.Falcon...).
Captain Falcon's throw RANGE might not be far but the "grab-throw" technique that he uses is very fast so he is a very "agile" grabber and thrower. Although you need to be pretty close to grab the opponent Captain Falcon's throw isn't that bad.
Everyone knows that if you press the "Back" button on the V-Pad when you're grabbed onto an opponent (grab the opponent and press the Joystick in the direction opposite of where you're facing) then your throw will be more powerful...well of course evreyone knows that "backwards throws" (I'm not sure how to call them) are more powerful and sometimes give you more throwing range. Well, Captain Falcon's "backwards throw" is pretty powerful so I disagree about that part where you said that C.Falcon DOESN'T have a good throw.
But that's not the only reason. Captain Falcon's throw is good because of it's grab...not just the throw range. Captain Falcon is SO agile (I mean REEEEEALLY agile) that his grab takes mere milliseconds and his throw&grab together are accomplished in about 1.873 seconds...yes I timed it...
Anyway, that's why Captain Falcon's throw shouldn't be underestimated because of the lack of range or other insignificant aspects becuase C.Falcon always makes up for them with his speed and agility.

Second of all, C.Falcon's Falcon Punch is POWERFUL! But you have to know how to use it...or dodge it. If you think that any old SSB amature that knows how to roll and block can dodge the Falcon Punch then you are WAAAY off. If you would play against me then I'd show you how to truely use ALL the power of the Falcon Punch. Due to C.Falcon's agility and speed he can easily jump away and start another attack the very second the Falcon Punch is done.
Also, the Falcon Punch shouldn't be used just ANYWHERE...You need to know when to use it...you can't just expect the Falcon Punch to work in any circumstances...you have to pick the right time and position.

High:
Kirby
Fox
Ness
Pikachu

Middle:
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Falcon
Yoshi

Low:
Link
Samus
DK
Mario

As much as I like Ness, Kirby is the top of the food chain by a great margin. Recovery, small size, not slow, good throws, Copy, powerful smashes, he really does have everything needed.

slak catching slack from the vets?

of course not. I would probably put my "tiers" for SSB almost exactly the same as yours. Except...Ness goes in the "top". he is the heezy fo sheezy.

Top

Fox
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness

Middle

Mario
DK
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
JigglyPuff
Samus


Bottom

Luigi
Link

That, or after watching the UNH crew dominate with amost everyone, I would just say to **** with it and go:

Top:

Ness
Fox
Kirby
Pikachu
Mario
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Yoshi

Middle:

Samus

Bottom:

Luigi
Link

because Link and Luigi could not be redeemed even by smack. And Samus just didn't quite seem to cut the gravy yet was somehow better then the suck brothers.

-B

Hoping not to sound like an idiot, but what is the purpose of this post? I don't seem to be able to catch the gist of it.

I believe we are trying to understand what a tier is. Yet I still see no understandable definition!

Well, I can't say the "EXACT" defenition but a tier is basically a step of allater of success/power/qualities. As everyone sees, there are 3 tiers, TOP, MIDDLE and LOW.....these are like the three levels of character strengths, qualities, etc. But the "main" tiers aren't the only tiers.....what I mean is, TOP, MIDDLE and LOW are the "main" tiers/levels and each of them has tiers in it too.....e.g.

TOP

Captain Falcon
Kirby
Ness
etc........

The characters in each tier is placed from the highest postion down to the lowest....basically each tier has characters listed from "Most powerful" to "Least powerful" character in that particular tier....


Whew....I hope that clears it up although there might be a more accurate definition.

Link

You can't block against Link forever. Eventually your shield will break, or it will stick too much and then Link can throw you. Link has the worst recovery; you could probably kill him eventually once you get him off the edge, but his projectiles should make that hard enough so that Link has the advantage if anyone.

Tierwise, Link should be placed above anyone without a projectile, and above Luigi and Samus because their projectiles are too slow and linear. The only person that has a chance to be above Link is Fox; I don't remember if his blaster can be canceled out by other projectiles.

Bumble Bee Tuna, what was the playstyle of "the UNH" crew? I'm assuming you were thrown a majority of the matches, and the fact that samus and link were their weaker characters backs the idea that most veteran matches are broken down into roll/throw ground game and edge guarding.

Links' projectile does not make up for the rest of his moves, especially the slow throw.

Re: Link

Originally posted by superpichu
You can't block against Link forever. Eventually your shield will break, or it will stick too much and then Link can throw you.

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......or, during your shielding, you could press A and be done with it. Link's poor recovery gets destroyed by the Z+A throw.

Link has the worst recovery; you could probably kill him eventually once you get him off the edge, but his projectiles should make that hard enough so that Link has the advantage if anyone.[/B]

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Recovery is a VERY important stat for SSB because throws are so powerful. Link may have a Boomerand and bombs, but projectiles are easy to take care of. Kirby stops them with Final Cutter. Ness deflects them with Bat. Fox deflects them with Reflector. All the other characters are simply much faster than Link enough to dodge them, even DK. If Link misses, the lag time puts Link into the hands on an enemy, usually for a 10+ hit juggling combo if done right.

Tierwise, Link should be placed above anyone without a projectile, and above Luigi and Samus because their projectiles are too slow and linear. The only person that has a chance to be above Link is Fox; I don't remember if his blaster can be canceled out by other projectiles. [/B]

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NO, Link should be DEAD LAST of of speed and recovery stats. Basically, you wait till he attacks. You dodge/shield and throw him off. You edge guard, and Link resigns. Luigi's fireball SUCKS a hairy donkey, but his physicals make up for it. If you even TRY to attack Samus, she either blasts you or uses Screw attack, dragging Link right in sword first.

Originally posted by UmbreonMow
......or, during your shielding, you could press A and be done with it. Link's poor recovery gets destroyed by the Z+A throw.

Click to expand...

Link will not be that close to you when he is attacking for you to be able to shield and grab. But, he will be able to grab you, because he has a longer range grab.

Originally posted by UmbreonMow
Recovery is a VERY important stat for SSB because throws are so powerful. Link may have a Boomerand and bombs, but projectiles are easy to take care of. Kirby stops them with Final Cutter. Ness deflects them with Bat. Fox deflects them with Reflector. All the other characters are simply much faster than Link enough to dodge them, even DK. If Link misses, the lag time puts Link into the hands on an enemy, usually for a 10+ hit juggling combo if done right.

Click to expand...

The Final Cutter and the Bat are to slow and can easily be provoked and taken advantage of after a fake out. The reflector is another story, but as I said earlier, Fox has a chance against Link.

Originally posted by UmbreonMow
NO, Link should be DEAD LAST of of speed and recovery stats.

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Of speed and recovery stats Link of course be in the back of the list. But you are forgetting the spacing stat. Link is the best spacer, and in this game it turns out that spacing has much more weight than speed or recovery.

Originally posted by UmbreonMow
Basically, you wait till he attacks. You dodge/shield and throw him off. You edge guard, and Link resigns. Luigi's fireball SUCKS a hairy donkey, but his physicals make up for it. If you even TRY to attack Samus, she either blasts you or uses Screw attack, dragging Link right in sword first.

Click to expand...

Again, you can't wait until he attacks and then retaliate, because Link will keep enough distance when using his projectiles. If Link is ever taken off the edge he is dead, yes. But this will not happen if Links spaces well.

My Tier Ranking (1 versus 1)


TOP_______________________________________________

Kirby(most variety,exellent comboer,good air game,slightly fast, good smashes, easy meteor, a little evasive,great recovery,poor weight)

Fox(fast...of course,great juggler,item manipulater,evasive,very hard to find vulnerability, reflector)

{tip:i find myself using it(reflector) offensively frequently in battle as a great knockback to a short combo)

C.Falcon(easy/most powerful combos in game{i've done a 145% that sent DK out the screen from the middle of the Star Fox stage!!!! :D },fast,grappling recovery ability,meteorist,good air sustaintion, slightly bad recover, exellent throw-to-combo settup)

High_________________________________________________

Mario(most balanced,quick power,decent juggler,great ground guarding, good throws,no inevitable weakness,nor strength)



Ness(well balanced,exellent comboer,great meteor,best air game while remaining very close to ground to start juggles,predictable B attacks , poor counter attacks,good throws)


Yoshi(good airial counter projectile,airial "super armor", fast damager/ good comboer at low damages, decently powerful, good edge guarder,good smashes, no up b, a little on the poor recovery-side,not 4 n00bs,bad throw, good meteor and easy to settup)


{tip: i find his B attack useful in which after u turn them into an egg...wait on the side...time when they break out(according to speed of their pressing of the buttons, and perform a Down B from the ground....works everytime..and very useful to KO fast targets)


Average______________________________________________

Jigglypuff(Poor reach,off timing,good recovery,too light,best short-power combos in game{rest}, useless up B(if u argue about this ur a n00b),best KO move-rest, not 4 n00bs)


Pikachu(quick/very evasive,balanced,fair counter-punish character, good comboer,good recovery,poor weight,limited reach, brief attack delays and predictability)


Bad_________________________________________________

Samus(poor projectile:horrible normal; predictable when ccharged,good Up and b move,good counter-punish game,limited powerful attacks,average speed,meteor:slow..but still a
meteor,decent reach,bad throw,horrible vulnerability after attacks)

Luigi( off-balanced,difficult comboer,good quick power,good ground guarding,slow easy-to-punish jump,bad projectile,very limited in chaining)


Ugly_________________________________________________

Link(slow, WORST RECOVERY,predictable,exellent range, good reach,good attack sustaintion,poor comboer,bad throw)


DK(good power/slow speed,HUGE MO-FO target!!,good reach, hard to use power,bad vertical recovery,difficult to master)
{i made sure he was the last person i good really good with...on the exception of link..which i decided to never master)
{plese don't try that grab and jump off crap...that is SO n00b...anybody w/ fingers can mash out in 1 second, and PUNISH U!}

3 players, 4 , and teams

not rank..just analisis of potential in 3,4, and teams



Kirby-having the ability to stale in air for any given moment its easy to pick out ur victim for a quick smack.he does good on his own but because he is not on extreme of stats he has no extreme power when theres an opening for 1 move, nor is his jump fast enough to help his partner,kirby is a solo at his games, and should be that way in smash...ironically the best way to beat him, is his best type of partner, a balanced character, like himself.
advised team mates-mario,luigi


DK- a very selfish fighter unable to handle more than one oponent,nonetheless defend himself against a berserk of projectiles...what was a bad combo game..turns to none in 4 player chaos. Much too big for a 1 versus 1...u can assume he will get owned without a chance of escape.
advised team mates-pikachu,fox

Link-a great distancer he can be an exellent team mate, with the right partner of opposite stats,Link seems to grow dependent on his up B attack("Get-the-heII-away")..and other ranged devices, he grows predictable due to the panic he suffers when they infiltrate his projectile defenses,and he his owned my speeders, but surprisingly enough he can hold his own on 4 player because usually the attackee will be attacked freeing link from his easy deaths.
advised team mates-C.falcon,Jigglypuff

..more later

Superpichu... I am sorry to say, but you are just plain wrong. Distance in Smash is like sending ketchup to Somalia; It's a nice idea, but in the long run it doesn't do much good.

Projectile attacks in this game are far different from those in most fighting games. They are not looked at as 'special' attacks that inflict major damage but more as long-range jabs. Combine their inherent lack of power with the fact that that distance can be covered in no time at all by a character with even only moderate speed and that same advantage you talk about falls quite a bit short. It is meaningless, almost.

What -isn't- meaningless in the game is recovery time. Recovery time dictates whether or not you can pull off that second move before your opponent drops his shield or re-orients himself from his roll or what have you. Link's recovery time is simply the worst in the game. If you attack and do not connect... chances are you cannot press the attack because you are still recovering from you last one.

Take this into consideration:

A shielded(blocking) character is at a disadvantage after being attacked. Unless they use a sheild-throw on an opponent that happens to be close enough to do such a move on, they can again be attacked or thrown before they can recover from releasing their shield. If their opponent is Link, however, and he did an attack that has enough of a recovery lag, they have more than enough time to drop their shield and make even a smash attack. This brings link down tremendously in terms of his tier orientation.

Moving right along, we'll take a look at another extremely important factor; The (Second and) Third Jump(s). Now, some will make the lame argument that 'if you're so great, you won't be knocked off the platform and thus won't really need to worry about the third jump'. But the truth is, as any Smasher worth his salt knows, no matter how good you are, when the match gets tough... someone's going off the edge. It's the ability to get back onto the platform or not that determines the real winner or loser. And when it comes to getting back on the platform... Link and C.Falcon are the worst. For Link, you couple that with the fact that his speed and recovery times are far too lacking to make him a competitor and you'll see quite obviously why he ranks last. And for Falcon... well... some of you guys just rate him way too high. He's easy to edge guard, has a hard enough time getting back on the platform his own **** self and simply doesn't have the arial range to compete with the likes of Fox or Pikachu in the air. So that bumps him down a tier or so.

The moral of the story is, kids... Distance is a dream. Projectiles are just long-range jabs. Speed, recovery, third jump and move-power/range are all of equal importance and if a character is lacking in one or more of them, he's destined to lose. Link is lacking in three of four. Do the math. Plus, like it or not... you're going to go off the ****ing edge. No if's, and's or but's. It will happen... and in your own words, superpichu:

If Link is ever taken off the edge he is dead, yes.

Click to expand...

End of story-time. Nighty-night.

P.S. MeleeMasterX... please don't double post. I understand the content was slightly different, but use the edit button anyway. We'll understand and you'll save Gid some money. Thanks.

Gives ^ a cookie. Beautiful!

And yes, you can Shield Grab Link during his rapid A. Or you could be the typical play and roll dodge before throwing. Both work. Or you could use Ness and roll dodge out, do the spike/bounce 30 times and scrape Link off the ground with the yo-yo at 350%. When it all comes down to the fighting, this isn't the typical fighting game. Not everyone dies at the same damage. This game has more than combinations of speed, Power, and defense. It has range, ballistics, recovery, athletic maneuvers, and counter-attacks. Ness's Bat is not too slow to reflect projectiles, especially the heavenly Boomerang that you refer to. Link eats it. Same with Final Cutter. Using the first up slash to stop a projectile, the second slash to drop it to the ground, and the 3rd slash to hit Link, who would STILL be recovering from the boomerang toss. Either way, Link isn't going to 'fake out' anything.

I don't know what the **** 'spacing' is, but I assume you mean range. News flash, Link's range is not unlike Africa and it's many diseases: despite the common knowledge, NO ONE CARES. Link's range couldn't cover for his horrible speed if his basic weapon was the Hammer. Fox still wins via Blaster, Ness still wins via PK Thunder/Missle, Kirby still wins via being Kirby, and Pikarat has Thunder. Tiers are much more off balance in SSB than in SSBM, and the top cannot be argued with :******:

...

My Top Tier in Order:
Kirby
Ness
Pikachu


Kirby being the best in this game is just like a no **** to me, I don't think I have to explain. I don't really see why Fox is top tier in this game. Pikachu combos just as fast as him and Pikachu can get teleport through edge guarders. His recovery is about as easy to stop as Ness's, but it's useful in Safron City and it doesn't go as far. Ness has a lot of prioroty, speed, and power. It also helps that his back throw is very strong and his spike is incredible for combos and low % kills. Ness can play a rolling, grabing, and edge guarding game very well. Pikachu can do the same thing, but pikachu can't edge guard as well. Ness's Yo-Yo and spike are better at stopping people from coming back then Pikachu's forward smash. If someone explains why Fox is top well, I'll probably agree. But I just view him as a slightly doned down Pikachu.

I pretty much agree that the bottom characters are Link, Samus, and Luigi. Their throws or other stats are too poor to actually make them competitive. Link is deffinately the worst. His moves are so slow and his recovery is so bad that he needs to play a shield grabbing game. Sadly, his grab isn't competitive. Have a nice day.

...

Basically what I'm saying, is that Fox is a lot like Pikachu without an effective third jump. This puts him at the top of the average tier instead of top.

Kirby most certainly was the best character in this game... almost to the point of being broken.

On any level that you can fall to your death (almost every single one) he can chase people off the side and drill them to their deaths before floating back to the side. His forward smash got nerfed in Melee but in this game it was spectacular.

I played as Luigi and CFalcon in SSB and I was fairly good with them, but Kirby outright owned everyone. He was the undisputed champion of cheap.

This is purely subjective (as all tier lists should be), and there is no hard evidence towards my selection.

]1

Ness

() Ness is broken. His maneuverability and recovery is exceedingly high. With him it is possible to end many games quickly. This is mainly due to a combination of air down a, throws, and his uncanny ability to end a player with short jump to spike.

]2

Kirby
DK
C. Falcon

() After the drop from Ness's place, these characters carry a distinguashable advantage. Edge gaurding is one of the most important tactic in the game, these characters are equipped w/ some of the best spikes. Some noticable abilities are DK's backwards throw, DK and C. Falcons weight, and Kirby's return abilities.

]2.5 (in alphabetical order)

Fox
Jigglypuff
Link
Luigi
Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Yoshi

() These are all the rest. Some have notable advantages, but not enough that there is any destinction in winning ability.

Feedback is welcome.

My tier list with 1v1 items off would be


TOP
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu

MIDDLE
Mario
Captain Falcon
Samus
Ness
Jigglypuff

BOTTOM
Link
DK
Yoshi
Luigi

Well i havent played SSB in awhile but this is what i thought back then

Wow, I never knew Kirby was almost near the point of brokeness.
I played with Kirby from the first day i ever touched SSB. After playing for awhile Kirby felt invicible.You guys sure u can move diagonal with the Final Cutter(Kirbys Sword Attack)?Anyway who was the best character against Kirby anyway?

Frankly, I think Ness and Kirby are both broken. Most of the other characters are almost completely subjective (except for Link... Link is more or less the equivalent of Melee's bowser... Just too slow to be of any use, especially when throwing was so incredibly important in this game), but the utter dominance of Ness and Kirby was obvious, I think.

Ness, with quick rolls, and a terribly powerful back throw, could easily slip into a back-throw/meteor smash rhythm... KOs could be achieved at insanely low percentages with minimal effort. His incredible maneuverability in the air and the lack of an air dodge made his meteor smash almost impossible to avoid, as its execution was instantaneous.

And Kirby was just a ridiculous imbalance of power and speed. His smashes were incredibly fast and powerful, and his forward smash was frankly devastating. Final Cutter was an easy combo, as well as an easy meteor, and the lack of an air dodge meant that stone could very easily make it nearly impossible to juggle him.

::sighs::

You'd think that in the face of all this, HAL could have gotten the balance right in Melée.

why the heck is Luigi bottom tier, I think he's better than Mario.

TOP
Kirby
Ness
Fox
Pikachu

MIDDLE
Yoshi
C.Falcon
Samus
DK
Mario
Luigi

BOTTOM
Jigglypuff
Link

Rainy Day Toast -

Frankly, I think Ness and Kirby are both broken.

Click to expand...

With all of the talk about Ness' and Kirby's greatness, I've yet to be schooled even once by a player who used them. Of course I've taken my beatings... any player worth his salt has collected a couple of bumps and bruises along the way... but I've never found myself on the losing end of a proposition involving either character.

Ness, especially. I love that little kid. He's about the most entertaining character to use, but that floater of a third jump just throws the rest of his abilities right out the window. If a character doesn't have it all-around, then they can't possibly be broken.

I honestly think that a lot of the same can be said for Kirby, but to a lesser degree. He doesn't quite have the overall speed that Fox and Pikachu have. His all around game is most certainly on par with Fox because of his strengths, but I really have to give Pikachu the edge on the match-up.

Pikachu is one of (if not )the most difficult characters to edge-guard and one of (if not ) the best to edge-guard with. His jump range is tremendous, especially for having only three (or four, if you'd call it that) parts, his speed is rivaled only by Fox, his throws are second (if that) only to Ness, and no one matches him in the recoil/attack-recovery department. The only thing that Pikachu wasn't gifted with was a spike, but in a lot of cases, he can out-range the other characters to head off the platform and go for the kill, or hang back on the ledge with either a Thunder or his super-long, super-fast smash and finish the job.

In all honesty, if any character is near-broke, it has to be Pikachu. Why else would I use him as my name-sake?

Yeah, Slak, I thought the same thing, until I played the NH crew. Ness is the bomb diggity. Try working on l-cancelling and nasty instant double jump spike chains. as in jump immediately double jump immediately spike imediately l-cancel immediately repeat...techable but it shows you what's possible with the little man. His third jump DOES suck, but he's still hella badass.

Kirby, now there's an overrated character. Yeah, his smash attack chain is fun, and recovery's nice, but Pikachu is a better character.

-B

I use(d) it from the moment you described it after your matchup with UNH. It's dankity. But it's pretty much just a really fast combo. Maybe the best, most consistent in the game... but in my personal opinion it's not enough to counter Ness' biggest weakness'. But hey... that's just me.

I'm a new poster, but I've been playing this game since it came out. My competitive play kind of trailed away for a while, but I've been playing a lot in the past few months. I see the tiers as such:

High:
Kirby
Pikachu
Ness
Fox
Jiggy
Yoshi
Mario
DK
Captain Falcon

Middle:
Samus

Low:
Luigi
Link

Things I'm uncertain of: Kirby over Pikachu, Yoshi over Mario, DK over Captain Falcon

I'd love for some major tournament action to go on with SSB to lead to some real, set in stone tiers, similar to what now occurs with SSBM. Because of the good balance between many of the characters, many of the tiers presented in this topic are pretty subjective (my own included). Wide spread high level play would help iron this area out.

Of course, with a game this old, that will probably never happen.

you ppl have a problem with link

top: link
kirby
pikachu

mid: c falcon
samus
jigglypuff
luigi

bottom: yoshi
ness
mario
DK

guys just so you know a tournament did just occur involving some serious SSB64 players and it was won by Isai of California, known as "malva00" on SWF. He used Pikachu and Captain Falcon as his main characters, and yes, he was seriously nasty. He said he didn't think there really were tier imbalances much in this game but it seems that Pika and CF are at least his 2 best.

That's about all the tourney data you'll ever find, what with SSBM replacing SSB64 as the game of choice, but Isai has played just about everyone who used to play SSB and they all agree he's insane and the greatest player they've ever seen so he does have a good track record on his hands.

-B

Maybe we could get some match footage from this guy?

I'm not sure if the SNL guys taped the ssb64 matches, hopefully...I didn't even really witness Isai play, I only saw Ken play who plays CF as well and he was nasty too. Got beat by Shian (super smack brother) though because he was stupid about stages and anti-camping. I'll ask about the footage...SNL is going to be putting out a DVD so hopefully it'll be on there.

-B