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War Room: The new chapter in Ike's matchup discussion (last update 11/21/09)

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
War Room: The new chapter
in Ike's matchup discussion

Introduction

Welcome to the new matchup discussion thread. The purpose of this thread is revising our matchup analysis and establishing ratios for optimally keeping up to date with the recent metagame developments and how they can affect Ike’s strategy and overall outcome of his battles in theoretical probability through analysis, comparison and determination of each opponent’s advantages and disadvantages. Not only that but we’ll also propose stage counterpicks and banning. I’m Guilhe and I’ll be hosting, indexing and preserving the valuable inputs made by our visitors.

Directory
  1. Procedure information [PRCD]
  2. New discussions [NWDC]
  3. Matchup chart [MTCT]
  4. Character Zero [CHRZ]
  5. Discussion Summaries [DCSM]
  6. Recent Updates [RCUP]
Procedure information [PRCD]

Indexing

All analysis will me made remotely in character specific threads I’ll create here at the Ike boards, ratios and links for the discussion, it’s write-ups and other must-read threads being reunited in this main thread. One should only post at the main thread for general questions, complains, suggestions and requests.

Write-ups

All write-ups will be linked to the main thread as long as it comprehends the various aspects that compose a SSBB match (recovery and gimping, approach and camping, ground combat, aerial and water combat, damage and KO power).

Stage counterpick and banning recommendations

Everyone can make their stage recommendation and banning article and get it published here at the matchup summaries if it has at least 2 stage counterpick recommendations (three or more if region specific stages like Pirate Ship are included) and one banning.

Ratios

We’ll be showing two distinct ratios here at the main thread for each analysis (unless it’s a mirror match): The Average Matchup Ratio and the General Consensus Matchup Ratio. The first will display the simple arithmetical average of all ratios suggested during the discussion, while the second will indicate the most accepted ratio in the discussion (For example, 45:55 was the ratio most players used to define the Ike vs. Pikachu matchup). In the event of a tie, the lowest ratio will be considered.

We’ll accept all matchup ratios suggested by our visitors if they are justified, that is, if you wish to share a ratio, you must indicate one or multiple traits of Ike that will cause an advantage or disadvantage when put against one or multiple traits of his opponent character. For example “The matchup Captain Falcon vs. Ike is, respectively, 100:0. The reason for that is the overall frame advantage of C. Falcon moves over Ike’s approaches, making combat impracticable for Ike to respond accordingly.” I’ll accept this exaggerated ratio, for it at least it provided the precise reasoning behind it.

Finally, all the SWF Global Rules are applied here and infractions will be reported. Now let’s get to work!

New Discussions



Sonic
Matchup discussion: [LINK]

Illustration by ~gts, at Deviantart.

Matchup chart [MTCT]

This chart organizes the ratios of Ike’s matchup discussions from the most advantageous to most disadvantageous from Ike’s perspective. The method of classification is primarily the General Consensus Matchup Ratio, though the Averange Matchup Ratio will be considered in the event of a tie.



Character Zero [CHRZ]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​

Ike

Newcomer from the recent installment Path of Radiance from the Fire Emblem series, Ike is a character that lacks advanced techniques and is mostly known for his raw attributes. Wielding the two handed sword Ragnell with just one arm, Ike boasts great range and huge hitboxes with the swing of his sword while letting his left arm free for performing his infamous jab sequences. He’s heavy and very powerful, capable dealing great portions of damage and KO’ing horizontally, vertically and spike with a vast variety of moves beyond his smash attacks. He’s also very effective for drowning opponents and his attacks possess great priority. By the other hand, most of Ike’s attacks have rather large portions of lag and require good spacing and/or prediction from the player using him.

Ike is commonly used as a secondary or counterpick character, as characters with superior defensive/camping game can greatly disrupt his approaches and good edge guarders can capitalize on his sub-par recovery. For that matter, Ike currently occupies the 28º place on both the SWR-B tier list and character ranking.

Links to references and important threads

[LINK] to Ike's frame data compilation;
[LINK] to Ike's stage discussion;
[LINK] to killing percentages without DI;
[LINK], [LINK] to Ike’s old matchup discussions.


Discussion Summaries [DCSM]


:pikachu2:Pikachu
Matchup discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By Ussi. Ussi evaluated this matchup as an 40:60 disadvantage;
[LINK] By me. I've evaluated this matchup as an 40:60 disadvantage;
[LINK] By Light. Light didn't evaluate this matchup.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning: [LINK]

Ratios:
Three ratios total;
General concensus at 40:60 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 41:59 disadvantage.

References and important threads:
[LINK] to the electrifying guide to Pikachu;
[LINK] to Pikachu’s killing percentages;
[LINK] to a list of very interesting “Tricks” Pikachu can do;
[LINK] to an Analysis of Pikachu’s spacing and zooning;
[LINK] to Pikachu’s moveset discussion;
[LINK] to Pikachu boards stage discussion.
:marth:Marth
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By Ussi. Ussi evaluated this matchup as a 35:65 disadvantage;
[LINK] By me. I've evaluated this matchup as a 40: 60 disadvantage;
[LINK] By Light. Light didn't evaluate this matchup.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning: [LINK]

Ratios:
Nine ratios total;
General consensus at 35:65 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 38:62 disadvantage.

References and important threads:
[LINK] to frame data;
[LINK] to stage counterpink and banning;
[LINK] to matchup information;
[LINK] to list of true combos;
[LINK] to zooning analysis;
[LINK] to ledge traps.
:falco:Falco
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By Ussi. Ussi evaluated this matchup as a 35:65 disadvantage;
[LINK] By Light. Light didn't evaluate this matchup.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning:[LINK]

Ratios:
Six ratios total;
General Consensus at 30:70 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 38:62 disadvantage.

References and important threads:
[LINK] to the Falco board's guide to Falco;
[LINK] to frame data
:pit: Pit
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By me. I've evaluated this matchup as a 50:50 neutrality;
[LINK] By Light. Light didn't evaluate this matchup.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning:[LINK]

Ratios:
Two ratios total;
General Consensus at 45:55 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 47:53 disadvantage.

References and important threads:
[LINK] to Pit vs. Ike matchup discussion (in portuguese);
[LINK] to "The Ultimate Pit Guide: A close up of Pit boards.
:snake: Snake
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By Kimchi. Kimchi didn't evaluate this matchup.
[LINK] By Light. Light didn't evaluate this matchup.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning: [LINK]

Ratios:

Seven ratios total;
General Consensus at 40:60 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 40:60 disadvantage.
:diddy: Diddy Kong
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-ups:
[LINK] By Niddo. Niddo evaluated this matchup as a 45:55 disadvantage.

Recommended stage counterpick and banning: [LINK]

Ratios:
Nine ratios total;
General consensus at 45:55 disadvantage;
Average ratio at 42:58 disadvantage.
:zelda: Zelda
Matchup Discussion: [LINK]

Write-Ups:
[LINK] By me. I've evaluated this matchup as an 65:45 advantage;

Ratios:
Seven ratios total;
General Consensus at 60:40 advantage;
Average ratio at 59:41 advantage.

References and important threads
[LINK] Fairy Fountain Research Thread;
[LINK] A Guide to Farore's Wind.


Recent Updates

* Zelda matchup discussion summary added (12/28/09);
* Matchup chart revised (11/20/09);
* Sonic matchup discussion started (11/20/09);
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
Notices

Notices

Calling out for collaborators

Studying and advancing Ike’s metagame is of vital importance for everyone here at the Ike boards. Still, everyone has their personal objectives in their lifes outside the boards such as a job and studies, me included. For that matter I am creating a syndicate, so that the occurrences of my personal life do not slow down the proposals for character matchup analysis.

Members of this syndicate will be allowed to start discussions and submit summaries of these discussions to be indexed here at the War Room, in the same fashion as I’ve been doing until now. However, there’ll be conditions for these matchup discussions to be considered:

The majority of the syndicate (50% +1) must reach an agreement in order to pass a new matchup discussion proposal, and the last matchup discussion must have met the goal of publishing at least one write-up and one stage recommendation and banning article that are largely agreed by the Ike players.

Requests for joining the syndicate can be done in this thread. I’m counting on you Ike boards!

Changes in Methodology

Now everyone can make their stage recommendation and banning article and get it published here at the matchup summaries if it has at least 2 stage counterpick recommendations (three if Pirate Ship is included) and one banning.

Breaking down the numbers

Guide to Match-Up Ratios by Praxis

50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.
The post above seems to reflect the general opinion over the infamous matchup ratios. I tend to disagree with it. Why? Go to the matchup chart and list at tactical and look at how it converges to 50:50. Anything past 70:30 doesn’t matter anymore; it is Ganon realm it appears…

The result is a lot of sensibly different matchups, frequently getting rounded at the same number. So unless we start working with fractions, I suggest we expand onward to greater numbers.

Another issue worthy of attention is how some matchup ratios seems to be a 0% to 100% expectancy of each character winning a match. It is not. If it was, we would take the characters ranking positions into consideration, and would have to make a much broader study to find a respectable ratio that would only consider top-of-metagame players. Matchup ratios are the estimative weighted average of each characters strengths and weaknesses.

Discuss.
 

Kimchi

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
895
Location
Fort Lee, NJ / Cornell University - Ithaca, NY
Adding more to my previous response about my concern for the organization, I highly recommend that instead of creating new threads, the discussion for each matchup is done here. Creating new threads for each matchup will clog up the boards and in my opinion, will make everything very very organized. I don't really think it's necessary to go through each matchup again seeing as how we discussed most of the main points already. Revising several key aspects of the matchup though will certainly be acceptable and sure, I think you may use some of the information that Yagami and I have already provided in the write-ups of some matchups.
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
The matchup discussions should take about one week each to be completed and, technically speaking, it’s not possible to clog a board. I would like to do that though, taking some of the locked stupidity out of the front page. And sure, I’ll point out the write-ups written by you and Yagami. How do I link to single replies?
 

Kimchi

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
895
Location
Fort Lee, NJ / Cornell University - Ithaca, NY
You simply click the # located on the top right hand corner of each post. It wouldn't really work for Yagami's writeups, because multiple writeups for different matchups are posted in one page so I think it'd be more practical to copy and paste the writeups.
 

Marauder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
499
Location
Jamaica
Good idea. The Marths are already discussing us so good move. Also, can Falco be next?
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
Links for Marth matcup discussion added, though those for stage counterpicking and banning are still missing. I'll add those and Falco's matchup discussion thread after I get some sleep.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,154
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Well i said already what stage:

Ban: BF

Pick: FD

rest: Marth does better on the stages that matter.... Basically its picking one that gives Marth the least advantages on you. Or something you're good at exploiting prehaps his recovery but yours is even easier to exploit...

**Two stages Ike prob does better on is Pirate Ship and Brinstar (weird stage lol) o.o; Brinstar is nice since its legal everywhere.




Falco... ug I will never understand what is so difficult about this match up.... (that is after you get pasted the CG)
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,154
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Wifi will never give an accurate match up analysis. That's the truth :/

unless you meant wifi for your laptop so you can contribute more XD
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Er, I've actually been blessed with never facing a MK user in a tournament so far. In four tournaments, two of them large ones to boot. None of them were MK banned. O_o
 

Kimchi

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
895
Location
Fort Lee, NJ / Cornell University - Ithaca, NY
Er, I've actually been blessed with never facing a MK user in a tournament so far. In four tournaments, two of them large ones to boot. None of them were MK banned. O_o
That's incredibly lucky. What the hell. -_-, come to NJ, haven for Meta Knights. Seriously though, I think we should discuss the most commonly used characters in tournaments first =/.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
That's incredibly lucky. What the hell. -_-, come to NJ, haven for Meta Knights. Seriously though, I think we should discuss the most commonly used characters in tournaments first =/.
Diddy Kong is used a lot. Obviously not as much as MK, but still common.

I just love using DACIT against Diddy's though. WHEEEEEEEEEE sliding Fsmash.
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
Personally, I would like to discuss the matchups that suffered most significant changes and those which ratios are looking imprecise first. MK isn’t one of them. But anyway, I’m providing a service for our community, I’ll prioritize attending its requests over my individual choices.
 

DarkDefeater

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
88
Location
Midwest, U.S.
I wouldn't mind an Ike ditto match discussion. I guess put simply, who ever has better control of forward aerials, spiking, jabs, and spotdodging wins.
 

Terra~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
402
Sup. I've went through the previously discussed match-up thread, only to find out a new one has been made! It's good to see people picking this back up. I'm posting because I'm currently working on a match-up chart based off of everything discussed in every board. Alphabetically, I'm at Ike now. So basically, keep working and reworking match-up. PM me if you have any match-up info etc.
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
Which kind of information do you seek wckd? Ok people, accepting requests for the next character discussion. If there’s no objections, will discuss Diddy Kong as suggested by Nid.
 

Gabz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
95
I prefer or find it better to play against Snake. Like Burrito said, Snake's a match up im more familiar with. besides, it is a character you probably will encounter more than Diddy. Diddy is pretty quick and with bananas and stuff, but, with good spacing, it can be taken care of. It doesnt have nasty projectiles like Snake do, so its easier to establish a physical combat.
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
I am down with diddy kong, my friend is a well experienced diddy kong player and we play around 50 matches a week. I'll make a point to use Ike more.
 

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,587
Location
Tijuana, México
D3 stuff:
If you shield D3's upB...the stars part, you can Fsmash him out of shield (if they cancel it too late/too close to the ground, they get a ton of lag too, so that allows an fsmash as well). Yes, there's time. Even D3 can fsmash D3 that way. No need to powershield either. If you hit a recovering D3 (fair), their horizontal air movement is so horrible they may be forced to upB already. His upB doesn't have a hitbox until D3's actually falling. Free uair/bair.

To fight the match-up, I'd say camp a lot and overB away if he's close, while avoiding to hit anything because of the cooldown. You'll learn which moves or mistakes of D3's allow punishment from you. Close range is bad if you're not punishing, the chaingrab hurts and has follow-ups.
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
In the process of cleaning an better organizing the main post. While I’m at that, I’ve already requested Arturito to provide the new matchup discussion thread and inviting the Diddy Kong boards.
 

Guilhe

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Brazil, São Paulo
Problem fixed and Snake added. I'm still leaving Diddy's matchup discussion open as we don't have Write-ups or stage counterpick and banning recommendations neither. Could someone ask the mods to stiky this thread?
 

mikeray4

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
707
I face alot of good ikes.(san,ren..ect.) and it has taken me months but I finnaly do not lose to them.
ike has a great jab, it can rack up damage on snake and can get him in the air where ike wants him to be . Ike's nair will not hit an unsheilded nade while snake plucks it out. ikes dash attack is also a wonderful approach against snake.
snake outcamps ike by far but you can absolutely destroy his recovery if the snake doesnt know the match up(which is the majority of snake mains). ike doesnt die to early from utilt and does have the power to KO snake at modest percents. keep your bair fresh, and fast falling your uair are great ways to kill snake. however use your B UP at times where snake cant punish you with a thrown nade.
Over all its snakes advatage 55:45
 

§leepy God

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
3,302
Location
On The Move....
Zelda's match up's does seem a little out there ever since two tier list ago, I'll agree that we should start Zelda.
 

Teh Brettster

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
3,428
Location
Denton, Texas (Dallas)
Sonic isn't that bad. Play a defensive game and stay far away from him while he's spinning/dashing-- or really, just don't rush him then. And when you get a nair/jab/grab, just keep the pressure going until he's out again and you're not controlling him. It's just a bunch of switching between offense and defense.
 
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