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☆ Right, well maybe not too much on Wolf since I find him the hardest out of the three, but Fox and Falco yes. Tilt's are Falco's worst enemy when it come's to Kirby since we can tilt you till 30% or more. To add, when we take Falco's power, we get even better than before since his lasers can be use for gimping Falco's air time when he tries to come back. Best stage to deal with Kirby is of course Jungle Japes, but beware that Kirby does good here to, but not as good as you guys. ☆
Kirby can do a couple of things to a laser-spamming Falco, and a laser-spamming Falco is harder than a normal Falco... But it doesn't limit Kirby as much as I think you're implying. Anyone could powershield the lasers and either keep the shield up if the falco does a downB, bair if the falco sideB's, or dodge if the falco tries to grab thanks to frame advantage on laser hitstun. A spammy falco can be easier to maneuver thanks to the simplicity of the strategy, SHDL>grab/sideB/downB are usually the approaches for campers... A few sandbagging seconds can show you what a camping falco will do at low, moderate and high % (quick usmash)... So, this can be handled by either leaving your shield pressed after you get close enough (so he hits your shield with whatever attack he chooses), or spotdodging the grab (if your % is low enough they will try to get in a fast attack, and what's faster and less-punishable than a grab?).
All Kirby needs to do is gain a percentage lead and not get camped by falco.
Lol really? There's no way that Kirby can **** Falco. All he has is that Fthrow>Uair and we can just SDI away from the Uair. Btw Falco has a great AAA jab.
Or any large stage. Btw Falco has a phantasm that you can't duck so yeah. I don't see the point in debating the matchup when the tournament I went to yesterday was filled with Kirbies and that's all I had to do was gain the lead and camp. Kirby has to approach which comes down to chasing Falco and Kirby has practically no mobility.
I would definitely say it's 55/45 or 5/5.
Yeah, all Fox has to do against Pika is get the lead and camp.
☆ Most large stages are ban any ways, lol. Strange, I wonder why they couldn't attack you when they could just fly high or just perfect shield all your lasers while running if you just camp them all day. I guess those Kirby mains don't know how to deal with campers I suppose, also it is a point to debate when someone has a different option than yours, I have great amount on Falco fighting, and you went to a tourney full of Kirby mains. I clam that they don't know how to fight Falco, or you just good with fighting Kirby with Falco, but that's my option. ☆
☆ As long as we don't get his power and send him off the stage and laser gimp him. Ah, fun times. =P ☆
You're giving Kirby too much credit...
<3 By the way you're too George.
How exactly does he camp Kirby?
Yeah, Gonzo combo is overrated. Every character can DI out of it. That being said, if that's all you see that Kirby has over Falco, you're not playing very good Kirbies. BTW, we can DI towards you and Uair you of your AAA jab. Single jab cancel to grab, however, is harder to punish.
Meh, the Falco I was playing would SH laser if I was trying to space Bair or aircamp near the ground (since our bad aerial mobility forces us to either get hit, attempt to jump over it (which can be impossible if the Falco is close enough), or airdodge. If Falco is close enough, all of these are punishable, and if we get hit with the laser, you can jab cancel to grab out of it. Out of that, depending on DI, you can get a Dair and out of that possibly a DACUS if we don't tech it the right way.
Again, you can crouchwalk to him, and Bair beats phantasm, as does Fsmash, Usmash I think, and inhale sometimes.
The Fsmash is nowhere near guaranteed. In fact, your more likely to hit with a hyphen smash when they roll away from you than with a Fsmash (More people need to start doing this and actually try to tech-chase their opponents from a trip. If you just try to Fsmash out of it, yeah, it'll work occasionally, but most of the time, they get a safe roll away. Punish that roll, and they don't know what to do anymore.).
). His jab cancels into a lot as well, most notably a grab, which allows for follow-ups, but also tilts, Dsmash, reflector, or another jab.
Lasers. Lots of them. No seriously though. Falco doesn't have to keep a consistent barrage coming at you ready for you to powershield. He also doesn't have to use SHL or SHDL to shoot them. I noticed kewkky say earlier that you can take to the air to avoid. No, you can't. If the Falco is a good shot at all, he can hit you as long as there isn't a wall between you. And look at that! You now have to approach because you are now down in percentage. I noticed what you said later in your post, fromundaman, so I'll address it later.
Yup. Still, when Kirby has to approach the entire time, its not as if Falco has to care. If you are both at 0%, Falco doesn't have to approach because he can pressure Kirby, not the other way around. Kirby HAS to have the percentage lead for it to matter.
That is why not to do the jab combo. Single jab comes out on frame 2, though. It beats Kirby's shield.
On a side note, most of Falco's ground moves are on par with Kirbys frame wise, so Kirby needs to space properly for most of them to be any use. That said, we are back to laser problems.OK, here we go. For any of those moves to work in punishing the phantasm, you need to hit Falco's hurt-box. This is the kicker. It doesn't exist except in three places during the entire phantasm (IF it is a full phantasm), and only for 1 frame each when they do appear. This puts a heavy burden on Kirby if the Falco player is aware of where those hurt-boxes are. It means s/he can work around it by varying when s/he would normally phantasm, AKA mix it up and keep the hurt-boxes away from Kirby's reach. I don't know how fast the ground and air versions of phantasms are frame wise, but they are a pain to deal with on reaction, and reacting is basically what Kirby has to do for it to work. If the Falco is following a distinct followable pattern, they are doing it wrong and don't know the MU.
All of this is correct. But keep in mind that Kirby has to have the percentage lead for anything that he does to be nearly as effective as it can be.
DI doesn't need to be predictable, and Falco shouldn't be in the position for it to happen. I think this is as good as any place to mention this. Falcos lasers limit Kirby to predictable patterns (again, this is only if Falco is tied/has the lead). Kirby can power-shield and approach all he wants, but his approach is 1 dimensional and predictable. Falco can get away if he is paying attention. Phantasm is used most often near the ground due to it's ability to "combo" (I haven't checked if its a true combo or not) from SHSL, but can still be used from other altitudes with similar results, especially if it is canceled for a long phantasm. Positions reset, and we are back to square one. This is less effective on stages without a decent sized central platform, though, and I'll get into stage stuff a bit later in this post.
Falco's recovery is not nearly as good as say Fox's (in reference to the spacies, not to the rest of the cast), but it can still be good if the Falco player is aware of the aforementioned hurt-boxes in their phantasm. Varry the hight, distance, etc, and take into account that the opponent can get spiked out of it, and you have at least an average recovery considering the other weaknesses of it. Whats more is that it is slightly more resistant to Kirby's style of offstage gimping.
I'll make my mention of stages here. The bear with this MU is the fact that Falco can camp on all of the neutral stages (save for in regions that allow places like PS1 and Castle Siege as neutrals). This limits the stages that Kirby has the clear advantage on to CPs, which can in turn be limited even more by stage bans. On the stages that allow Kirby to approach in general due to Falco's camping game being limited (such as Brinstar) however, Kirby has the clear advantage due to being able to out-space and damage rack, much like my fellow Kirby's have been stating.
A patient Falco is a golden Falco in this MU. The lack of killing power won't matter as long as Falco is avoiding taking damage. I still disagree with the idea that Kirby has gimping options in this MU if the Falco has proper DI.
I respectfully disagree. In the grand scheme of a match, its even.
It is indeed overrated... except in this matchup. Don't get me wrong, it won't help in any combat function or anything. It's sole usage is to close the gap without taking damage.
You know he fires slower when he does them on the ground, meaning that while there's more of them at 'Kirby height', they're easier to PS and crouchwalking still works.
Stereotypically speaking, Falcos seem to approach for the grab. That being said, you are completely right. They don't need to approach and a smart Falco shouldn't be approaching you at that time.
Very true.That is why not to do the jab combo. Single jab comes out on frame 2, though. It beats Kirby's shield.
Right, but you know, we can learn where those hurtboxes are too (and they're not that hard to learn), so we too can space ourselves o that if they SH to phantasm, we can punish it. On top of that, if ew aren't in range of a hurtbox, we can always shield and reset the position. That being said, you are usually within Bair range of one of the hurtboxes.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. I was talking about combos/strings Falco can do to us.
Not only do I not agree with your statement, but it doesn't really address what I was talking about, but it also implies that we will never get within attack range of Falco.
Falco has only 2 recovery options, and one is so gimpable that they will never use it unless they have to (which we can force them to do in some situations), which gives them a predictable recovery. It is good at going through many of our gimping options, but it is not ungimpable by any means. Bair, inhale and Fsmash will pretty consistently beat it since they almost always end up hitting one of the hurtboxes thanks to the space their hitboxes take up, not to mention the fact that guessing where they'll land isn't too hard in most cases, and with proper spacing you can Dair where they are vulnerable, though Falco shouldn't get caught up by that too much.
Some of those stages allow us to play gay and air camp when in the lead, but yeah, you're pretty much right.
No idea, but for that matter, where's our frame data? Do we even have anything to compare theirs to?
Yeah, but that's just a "Don't get hit/grabbed" thing. Falco will get hit, and most of our hits will lead to combos. He will take damage, and getting the killing blow isn't much harder than against any other campy character.
And so, we shall disagree I guess. In the end, I don't really care too much for the number, but the matchup definitely doesn't feel even. I mean, it's definitely winnable for Falco, no doubt there, but we still have some advantages on him IMO. If I really had to put a number on it, it'd be 60-40, MAYBE 55-45.
People are getting smarter. When JJ is not allowed in the tourney people move over to FD to ban against Falco. So what would be alternatives?
SV or BF maybe, but Pictochat is a great stage for Kirby. One of my standard 3-4 stages I CP as a matter of fact. We have a lot of exploits there, and being able to kill off of the sides really early and combo into hazards is a plus, as well as an awesome edgeguard glitch on the right side.
