Matchup rediscussion: Kirby!

[Kewkky]

Kismet2, you speak as if we haven't played any good Falcos, or that you have played good kirbies. A matchup experience isn't fighting hundreds of kirbies, it's fighting a DECENT Kirby that knows what he's doing, and maybe even be on par with your skill. If you'd find a Kirby mainer like that, you'd see just how hard the MU is for Falco, and how less troublesome it is for Kirby.

Camping Falcos... The point still stands in all MUs: gain % lead, then camp away and you have a winning MU as long as you keep that lead. Look at MK, for example: if he has 100% more than Wario (or even a stock more), all he really has to do is aircamp and plank, and he wins... But how many times has it happened at top levels of play? When was the last time a top MK beat a top Wario by planking and aircamping? It's an even matchup, and MK is the best aircamper in the game, and still he can't successfully outcamp a top Wario, and Wario has no projectile to countercamp MK. What makes you think Falco can do better than that against Kirby, especially considering Falco's weight (perfect for combos) and Kirby's comboing abilities? And what about Kirby's above par grab game, retardedly good bair, aircamping abilities, light weight (can either escape Falco's chaingrab, or escape by rolling behind or ahead of falco/attack getup after dthrow>dthrow>dair), and ability to copy your laser and use it better than you at camping (SHTL)?

I know you're a pretty awesome player, kismet2, I've seen your tourney result and heard what people have said about you... But have you played any kirbies who can match up to you? I could take on a Marth and a G&W at the same time and WIN if their skill level is far below mine... And who's to say those kirbies' skill levels were far below yours?

60:40 Kirby's minimum, seriously.


PS: Battlefield is actually a great stage for Kirby. I know many will probably disagree with me, but the platforms increase Kirby's aerial game efficiency by a LOT... ANd his usmash can reach the bottom platforms, being able to setup for dthrow>usmash at 30-45% (forgot which range, but around there), thanks to the platform being in the way not allowing opponents to counter kirby with an aerial.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Edit: Considering how hard it seems to find a decent stage for Falco vs Kirby, I would say that the match-ups will almost always be 60-40. Unless you grab JJ, FD or SV. Maybe 55:45.

Yea, kirby doesn't really have a bad stage, except maybe halberd (low ceiling, wide sides...kirby KO's to the sides, not up). If they ban FD, the next best one would be SV. YI(B) is a good kirby stage, and bf is...iunno, I have irrational hatred of battlefield, ask someone else lol. Halberd could be a good CP for you.

Edit: Penguin-like birds with flamethrowers can be ninjas?

I had been thinking of Halberd if only to take advantage of the way the two units kills. Most of Kirby's Kills typically seem to be made horizontally instead of vertical. At the very least the vertical is more difficult to pull of. Falco's primary KOs are typically vertical due to UpSmash. That means Falco could take advantage of the stage's ceiling more so than kirby.

The problem I see with that is the way the battle would be played. The dip in the flying platform section means that Falco's typical method of recovering on stage is nerfed by having more landing lag on the phantasm. IAPing is messed up in general. Kirby can shark under the stage with no remorse. The dip also causes problems with lasering. If kirby grabs the center than our lasers are useless. The only section Falco gains any advantage on is the ship.

Overall, I wouldn't pick Halberd.

What other stages does Falco do well on?

SV, PIctochat, JJ, BF, FD are typically all the stages that Falco plays on. Anything relatively flat and few platforms gives Falco free rain with his abilities.

 

[A1lion835]

SV, PIctochat, JJ, BF, FD are typically all the stages that Falco plays on. Anything relatively flat and few platforms gives Falco free rain with his abilities.

I guess you guys have really bad luck then. Smashville, Battlfield and FD are all stages kirby does well on. Pictochat is a good, if seldom used, Kirby cp. Kirby does well on JJ.

 

[fromundaman]

I guess you guys have really bad luck then. Smashville, Battlfield and FD are all stages kirby does well on. Pictochat is a good, if seldom used, Kirby cp. Kirby does well on JJ.

Kirby's decent on FD and SV, but nothing special either. He's very good on all the other stages though (I honestly have no fear of JJ against Falco as Kirby. FD would be the only stage I wouldn't want to play you on.).

 

[Hawks go Caw]

A counter pick isn't a stage your opponent is bad at; it's a stage that you're good at. So what if Kirby is okay on Smashville or FD? Falco's better on it. I always figured MU discussions involved discussing neutrals only anyway, so why bring up CP's? The fact that one of Falco's best counters also happens to be a neutral only helps him.

I also think people are giving Kirby's Bair way too much credit. It is not the answer to everything Falco has like some people are making it out to be. Falco has a Bair of his own to match. Reflector as a spacing tool works really well against people who stay in the air a long time.

Crystal: If you're phantasming back onto the stage in Halberd and you land in the dip, chances are you didn't have to phantasm in the first place. Not to mention the phantasm can be canceled. Firebird recovery works better on this stage too since you have the option of landing or grabbing the edge.

 

[Kewkky]

I think you're underestimating Kirby's bair, Hawks. When we say that it has high priority, is spammable, can kill, and is also our spacing move, we mean it. I know Falco's bair can't compare due to it not being as disjointed as Kirby's bair, and also at Falco's fastfall speed and lack of range on the attack (plus landing lag... Kirby has none of that). It truly is a multi-purpose attack with no down sides if we spam it... And it breaks Falco's approaches except his laser and his downB (after startup... We all know that any attack can counter Falco's downB if it's in its starting frames)... And downB for an aircamping kirby? He'll be too high and falling too fast with a bair for the reflector to actually do anything worthwhile (and you can't escape a Kirby hovering above you and ff'ing a high priority attack).

And MU's can also talk about CP stages, not just neutrals. How else will people find a good stage to bring an enemy to, if their enemy can take advantage of every single neutral stage? Counterpicks are the only options left, and these include stage CPs.

 

[Notra]

Ahh don't talk about ruining approach BUT lazer. Cause lazer will always be in an approach. And. For if u suck falco up. Ahh reflector? kirby isn't too bad infact on neutrals I'd say 55:45 falco favor or 50:50

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

First, I'm surprised that we have another rediscussion when we haven't even redone all the characters yet lol

It's not like we're unable to discuss multiple things a time, we're not *******.

 

[Kewkky]

Ahh don't talk about ruining approach BUT lazer.

... What? o_o

Cause lazer will always be in an approach.

Yep, with all that frame advantage gained from silent laser's hitstun, lagless landing and all that whatnot. We know this, so don't worry.

And. For if u suck falco up. Ahh reflector?

Yep, because we're going to stand in front of you the whole match and use lasers only. As soon as you reflect once, we'll know you mean business and only use lasers when you're offstage, or far from us.

kirby isn't too bad infact on neutrals I'd say 55:45 falco favor or 50:50

I don't think you've showed us points in which you make your viewpoints valid. Can you reiterate said viewpoints with facts and experience?

 

[kismet2]

Kismet2, you speak as if we haven't played any good Falcos, or that you have played good kirbies. A matchup experience isn't fighting hundreds of kirbies, it's fighting a DECENT Kirby that knows what he's doing, and maybe even be on par with your skill. If you'd find a Kirby mainer like that, you'd see just how hard the MU is for Falco, and how less troublesome it is for Kirby.

Camping Falcos... The point still stands in all MUs: gain % lead, then camp away and you have a winning MU as long as you keep that lead. Look at MK, for example: if he has 100% more than Wario (or even a stock more), all he really has to do is aircamp and plank, and he wins... But how many times has it happened at top levels of play? When was the last time a top MK beat a top Wario by planking and aircamping? It's an even matchup, and MK is the best aircamper in the game, and still he can't successfully outcamp a top Wario, and Wario has no projectile to countercamp MK. What makes you think Falco can do better than that against Kirby, especially considering Falco's weight (perfect for combos) and Kirby's comboing abilities? And what about Kirby's above par grab game, retardedly good bair, aircamping abilities, light weight (can either escape Falco's chaingrab, or escape by rolling behind or ahead of falco/attack getup after dthrow>dthrow>dair), and ability to copy your laser and use it better than you at camping (SHTL)?

I know you're a pretty awesome player, kismet2, I've seen your tourney result and heard what people have said about you... But have you played any kirbies who can match up to you? I could take on a Marth and a G&W at the same time and WIN if their skill level is far below mine... And who's to say those kirbies' skill levels were far below yours?

60:40 Kirby's minimum, seriously.


PS: Battlefield is actually a great stage for Kirby. I know many will probably disagree with me, but the platforms increase Kirby's aerial game efficiency by a LOT... ANd his usmash can reach the bottom platforms, being able to setup for dthrow>usmash at 30-45% (forgot which range, but around there), thanks to the platform being in the way not allowing opponents to counter kirby with an aerial.

Yes, I have played a good Kirby and it's GeorgeTHPS. We have close matches like every tournament we go to and he sent me to losers at my most recent tournament(2-1). I realized that I can't outsmart him if we ever engage in close combat so what I'd have to do is basically get at least one jab, laser, or phantasm off and make it seem like I'm going to time him out. It worked and won 3-0. And it doesn't matter if you get comboes, if you can't get the kill move it doesn't matter. If the Falco is patient how are you going to get the grab if he keeps avoiding you? A retardly good Bair that'll get stale and won't kill untill 160ish. Aircamping only works if you get the lead and how can you go about doing that? Falco gets three guaranteed walking Dthrows(three Dthrows puts him at the right percentage to have enough hitstun) unless the stage is sloped and I can Dair fastfall then regrab and Dthrow to Nair, that's about %50 right there. How are you able to copy Falco's ability if he won't even get near you?

Well, I just got back from a tourny today with a pretty good Falco (and sadly one of the few in the MW), so I have stuff to say now that I understand the matchup a bit better, but first, I want to comment on what was already said.



How exactly does he camp Kirby?




Yeah, Gonzo combo is overrated. Every character can DI out of it. That being said, if that's all you see that Kirby has over Falco, you're not playing very good Kirbies. BTW, we can DI towards you and Uair you of your AAA jab. Single jab cancel to grab, however, is harder to punish.

You do realize you can shield from a duck? Not to mention there are a number of ways to punish phantasm. If all you're doing is laser/phantasm, not only is Kirby's % probably not increasing at all, but we can also punish you for it with some of our stronger moves (like Bair and Fsmash. Depending on the spacing, inhale too, but there's no reason to try to get you with that since it usually won't work.)




Meh, the Falco I was playing would SH laser if I was trying to space Bair or aircamp near the ground (since our bad aerial mobility forces us to either get hit, attempt to jump over it (which can be impossible if the Falco is close enough), or airdodge. If Falco is close enough, all of these are punishable, and if we get hit with the laser, you can jab cancel to grab out of it. Out of that, depending on DI, you can get a Dair and out of that possibly a DACUS if we don't tech it the right way.
Stuff like that does allow you to rack up damage, though it is much easier for Kirby to do so in general.

You can do a lot more than 20% if you do it right. In fact, if you follow DI correctly and (I don't know how else to describe this) Utilt walk (Which is essentially buffering a small step in one direction followed by a Utilt. You can do this with crouch too, allowing us to approach and duck lasers), you can get pretty close to 40% or more from that alone. Now add in the Fthrow combos, which I know you can escape out of, and Dthrow combos/follow-ups, some of which you can escape out of, and you shouldn't be starting the stock at low percent. Then we have a bunch of other damage racking strings, all of which work better against you since you're heavy.

Dsmash, Usmash, and hammer (well, stone as well, but good luck hitting that against Falco.) are all good killers as well. When it comes to kill moves, we have quite a few. If they don't outright kill, we have our gimping game, which is really good.

For aircamping, it kind of depends on the stage. Sadly, our aerial mobility keeps us from being as effective of air campers as Wario or Puff, though we're not bad at it either.




Again, you can crouchwalk to him, and Bair beats phantasm, as does Fsmash, Usmash I think, and inhale sometimes.

Very true.

Not that it matters much, but are you sure Falco's Bair is faster? In any case, it and Dair are Falco's only 2 really useful aerials in thismatchup, though Nair CAN be decent in some situations.

I personally don't think those arguements make it even at all, but meh, I don't really care about the numbers.



The Fsmash is nowhere near guaranteed. In fact, your more likely to hit with a hyphen smash when they roll away from you than with a Fsmash (More people need to start doing this and actually try to tech-chase their opponents from a trip. If you just try to Fsmash out of it, yeah, it'll work occasionally, but most of the time, they get a safe roll away. Punish that roll, and they don't know what to do anymore.).



Another point in Falco's favor IMO is his Fsmash and jab. Those things are ridiculously disjoincted, and his Fsmash beats out all our moves and can be hard to punish in some cases (Maybe he had a sword in the beta and they forgot to remove the sword hitbox when they took it out...? ). His jab cancels into a lot as well, most notably a grab, which allows for follow-ups, but also tilts, Dsmash, reflector, or another jab.

Also, if we're not careful when recovering, we will get spiked.

One big problem Falco has in this matchup though IMO, other than the reduced effectiveness of his lasers, is his lacking of killpower, especially since Usmash and Bair are rarely ever fresh in this matchup (not that they're the best kill moves, but they are the most likely to hit.), which can lead to us living to some pretty ridiculous percents, whereas our puffball is stacked with kill moves and gimping options.

All in all, I personally think we have the advantage, though it's nowhere near as big as what people once thought.

Did I say camp? I meant to say time out. If Kirby DIs towards me and tries to Uair it only works if I keep up my jab but if I just use the AAA jab and stop before you even get to uair then I can just do it again and again so Uair is useless. I know this because George used it and it got me at first but I caught on and it didn't work anymore. Why would I try to kill with a Fsmash? I get just about most of my kills from hyphen smashing. Only time will I ever use an Usmash early is if I hit someone with a gatling combo and that's only at low percentages so my Usmash will be refreshed by the time you're in killing range. Yeah, you're stacked with kill moves, but I'm sure a good player will see what moves you're going to attempt to kill with, so you're moves are just as predictable as Falco's killing options. Btw, we also have Uair which is pretty useful if we put you into the air from a phantasm or you're ever in the air.

 

[kismet2]

Double post.

 

[kismet2]

Triple post

 

[BleachigoZX]

Quadruple Post

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Overall, it looks to me that general opinion says the match-up is 60-40;55-45 depending upon the stage that the match is being played on. 60-40 seems the more accepted term. FD, JJ being the ideal CPs whenever possible. Grabbing SV when both are gone.

@Hawk: I was mentioning the dip because firebird is useless to consider recovering with anyway. You'd be punished as soon as you land on stage or in the start up lag. Phantasming onto the stage is a typical method Falco uses when he hangs from the ledge. But with the dip he has more lag because of the distance he has to fall. Plus, if you do not go high enough the phantasm will just fall through the stage like it does on Delfino sometimes. So Falco's ledge options and overall offstage recovery has problems on the flying section. It's different than the ship, but it suffers a little bit more.

It's not like we're unable to discuss multiple things a time, we're not *******.

But I do not see another character discussion that we haven't done yet going on at the same time. And there are discussions we have yet to do.

Double post.

Triple post

Quadruple Post

Useless Post

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

But I do not see another character discussion that we haven't done yet going on at the same time. And there are discussions we have yet to do.

Well if you're so eager to discuss matchups, be my guest and make a thread.

 

[fromundaman]

Did I say camp? I meant to say time out. If Kirby DIs towards me and tries to Uair it only works if I keep up my jab but if I just use the AAA jab and stop before you even get to uair then I can just do it again and again so Uair is useless. I know this because George used it and it got me at first but I caught on and it didn't work anymore. Why would I try to kill with a Fsmash? I get just about most of my kills from hyphen smashing. Only time will I ever use an Usmash early is if I hit someone with a gatling combo and that's only at low percentages so my Usmash will be refreshed by the time you're in killing range. Yeah, you're stacked with kill moves, but I'm sure a good player will see what moves you're going to attempt to kill with, so you're moves are just as predictable as Falco's killing options. Btw, we also have Uair which is pretty useful if we put you into the air from a phantasm or you're ever in the air.

Ah, timing out makes more sense I guess... Though we can do the exact same thing to you (depending on the size of the stage and how much we're willing to play gay.).

Good to know about the jabs.

I didn't necessarily mean kill with Fsmash. I have just found in some situations it can be a ***** to get around, especially with it's annoyingly large disjoint range. You're right though, odds of you actually getting a kill with it are rather low.

Also, about Bair going stale, our pummels refresh moves, and at about 100%, if we use the IASA frames on our pummel, we can on average get 6-10 pummels in before they break out (this can vary based on how well the opponent mashes, obviously, but it is still VERY effective for refreshing Bair in kill percents.). Otherwise, a Ftilt sets up for gimps due to it's horizontal trajectory.

Hmmm... nice to know about Uair, but isn't it a two hit Uair like Fox that you can SDI out of the hit with knockback? Can't say I've seen it used much in either case, since it's usually easy to see coming and avoid/punish unless you're comboed into it.

Also, I don't know GeorgeTHPS, so I can't say, but as good as he may be, is he at your skill level? Keep in mind that matchup discussions are supposed to be about players of equal skill. (And I do know no one will ever have experience like that pretty much, but that's why these things have to be taken with a grain of salt and argued.)

@Hawk:
FD is really the only stage you do better than us on IMO, and possibly arguably JJ, but I'm not even sure about that one.
So yeah, you want a stage that you're good on, but not if your opponent is even better there. It's like a D3 player CPing FD against Diddy Kong. He may be good there, but Diddy will wreck his ****. The problem is that almost all the stages you guys do well on, we do just as good, if not better. But if you don't believe me, by all means, go ahead and pick a stage like Pictochat or JJ against a player who knows the stages. You'll heavily regret it when you get 0-deathed on JJ or infinite stone comboed on Pictochat, to give but a few examples.

 

[t!MmY]

... what I'd have to do is basically get at least one jab, laser, or phantasm off and make it seem like I'm going to time him out. It worked and won 3-0. And it doesn't matter if you get comboes, if you can't get the kill move it doesn't matter. If the Falco is patient how are you going to get the grab if he keeps avoiding you? A retardly good Bair that'll get stale and won't kill untill 160ish. Aircamping only works if you get the lead and how can you go about doing that? Falco gets three guaranteed walking Dthrows(three Dthrows puts him at the right percentage to have enough hitstun) unless the stage is sloped and I can Dair fastfall then regrab and Dthrow to Nair, that's about %50 right there. How are you able to copy Falco's ability if he won't even get near you?

^^^This guy knows the match-up, listen to him.

How is Kirby going to take advantage of his good B-air when he has lasers between him and his opponent? Those lasers are also ground-canceled so Falco has plenty of time to deal with any approaches between lasers Kirby tries to do. If Kirby ever gets close enough to actually do something to Falco, the Phantasm deals with the problem.

Yes, if Kirby can get in close he can deal some damage, but that's all he can really rely on. He can hope to get a good combo, he can hope to get Falco off the stage, he can hope to land an F-smash at 100%, but these are not solid, reliable elements that swing the favor of the match to Kirby in the slightest. If it weren't for Kirby's chance with Copy, his good combos, edge guarding, etc. this would be far, far in Falco's favor.

As it is, 50-50.

 

[Lord Viper]

How is Kirby going to take advantage of his good B-air when he has lasers between him and his opponent?

☆ Why the hell would you need to use B-Air when he can use Tilts for better results and strings? =P ☆

Those lasers are also ground-canceled so Falco has plenty of time to deal with any approaches between lasers Kirby tries to do. If Kirby ever gets close enough to actually do something to Falco, the Phantasm deals with the problem.

☆ If you try to approach without dodging or perfect shielding or just shielding of course you can't catch him, and there's only like two or three stages he can constantly laser camp Kirby that he can do little about. And how is Phantasm is a problem when you can just block it and punish it because it doesn't go too far away to not able for Kirby to attack with. ☆

Yes, if Kirby can get in close he can deal some damage, but that's all he can really rely on.

☆ 30% damage by just using U-Tilt effectively and killing him at a low percent is just la-ti-da, amirite? =P ☆

He can hope to get a good combo, he can hope to get Falco off the stage, he can hope to land an F-smash at 100%, but these are not solid, reliable elements that swing the favor of the match to Kirby in the slightest. If it weren't for Kirby's chance with Copy, his good combos, edge guarding, etc. this would be far, far in Falco's favor.

☆ How can you hope to do all those things when you can just currently do them by just punishing his attacks, or just use strings on him since he's stunned too long when he's hit. I hope all Kirby mains don't play the same or we will get the same results of just using B-Air all day everyday. =/ ☆

 

[thrillagorilla]

☆ Why the hell would you need to use B-Air when he can use Tilts for better results and strings? =P ☆

I think he was talking about its uses in the MU in general. Even then, when is Kirby going to get a chance to use his tilts? t1mmy already covered why that won't generally work.

☆ If you try to approach without dodging or perfect shielding or just shielding of course you can't catch him, and there's only like two or three stages he can constantly laser camp Kirby that he can do little about. And how is Phantasm is a problem when you can just block it and punish it because it doesn't go too far away to not able for Kirby to attack with. ☆

He can camp on any stage that has a decent sized middle platform. This includes BF (and before you say "platforms" let me remind you that lasers aren't limited to SHL, SHDL and SHSL) FD, Lylat (if you know the level, the edges and tilting aren't a problem), Smashville, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island (that can even help Falco out if he stays to the lower parts of the stage. He can hit Kirby even if he is ducking in the wrong place) just to name a few. Yes, Kirby can do some great stuff on those levels and a whole lot of others that I didn't mention, but the fact remains that you NEED the percentage lead for it to matter. For example, fromundaman mentioned earlier (I WILL get back to your post fromundaman, I promise) that Kirby can do the stone glitch on Pictochat. If Kirby doesn't have the percentage lead, though, Falco doesn't have to do anything but wait for the timer to run down. With lasers, it is extremely improbable that Kirby will get the first hit in. From then on out, its a long, long wait for the timer to run down.

As for Phantasm, if Falco "long" cancels it, he can slide along the stage at the end of it and avoid punishment. Also, if he is phantasming into you while you are at the center of the stage, s/he is doing it wrong. With Laser lead-ins, SH mind games, and other such options available to him, he can stay away much better than you can approach. As long as he can maintain that percentage lead, he just has to avoid direct confrontation (yes, this is playing the "don't get hit" card, but keep in mind, so is saying that Kirby can successfully PS everything coming at him... ).

☆ 30% damage by just using U-Tilt effectively and killing him at a low percent is just la-ti-da, amirite? =P ☆

SDI people. If your opponent knows the MU, most strings don't even work. As for gimps, I STILL have yet to see someone post how Falco gets gimped by Kirby... He should be using phantasm almost exclusively, which can be gimped by what, bair? Bair isn't omnipresent. Falco can choose to go for either the stage or the ledge, and you can't cover all possible entry points at once.

☆ How can you hope to do all those things when you can just currently do them by just punishing his attacks, or just use strings on him since he's stunned too long when he's hit. I hope all Kirby mains don't play the same or we will get the same results of just using B-Air all day everyday. =/ ☆

How can you hope to be in range to punish? And with Falco having frame advantage on lasers and jabs, what exactly are we going to punish?

@fromundaman: Once again, sorry for not responding to your post first, fromundaman. I'll get to it later, I have a few things I'm working on at the moment.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Triple post

Get wrecked, SmashBoards.

This aside, I have to say that playing and watching the Kirby players that Kismet did has very much improved my opinion of Kirby as a character. He has some really abuseable properties that go a long way in improving his mobility issues (which are not as great as I once thought).

That aside, Falco has all the tools and more to put constant pressure on Kirby and to get away from Kirby's pressure. It's not lopsided at all, but I cannot imagine anything less than even, although I'm leaning towards at least a slight advantage for Falco.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Now, TG:

Sorry this took me so long, lol.

You know he fires slower when he does them on the ground, meaning that while there's more of them at 'Kirby height', they're easier to PS and crouchwalking still works.

When I said that, I meant that they are a huge limiter on air movement, I didn't mean to shoot lasers on the ground. Doing so takes away a good portion of Falco's options for escape, so he shouldn't be doing anything but SHSL on a ground approaching Kirby. That said, Kirby does have to momentarily stop every time a laser comes at him (however small the amount of time may be), otherwise he will eat a laser. The pattern of stops is dictated by the Falco, so he has control of the situation and can keep an eye on when he needs to escape. Its not fool-proof, but crouch-walking certainly isn't either, and since Falco is in control he has a better chance of doing damage.

Stereotypically speaking, Falcos seem to approach for the grab. That being said, you are completely right. They don't need to approach and a smart Falco shouldn't be approaching you at that time.

I'm with you here. Its good to note that he can go for more than grabs if he does decide to approach (which he shouldn't be doing if he knows the MU).

Right, but you know, we can learn where those hurtboxes are too (and they're not that hard to learn), so we too can space ourselves o that if they SH to phantasm, we can punish it. On top of that, if ew aren't in range of a hurtbox, we can always shield and reset the position. That being said, you are usually within Bair range of one of the hurtboxes.

Its very true that you can learn where the hit-boxes are, but that doesn't mean anything if you can't predict when Falco is going to phantasm. SHphantasm, IAP, SHSL -> Phantasm (true combo I think) and other things. Also, even if bair can knock Falco out of phantasm, it needs to be out before the move's hit-box starts due to the mechanics of the move. That would mean you need to be in the air, in which case Falco will likely just shoot you. This leaves ground punishing moves, which get you back to the need to crouchwalk to approach. None of this is by any means unbeatable, the fact of the matter is that Falco has many more opportunities to hurt Kirby than the other way around. There are some great ways to alieviate it, and if Kirby gets the percentage lead, then its a whole new MU, but from the word go, Kirby has to get around the camping and he is at a disadvantage the entire time he has to do it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. I was talking about combos/strings Falco can do to us.

I was just adding to what you said. Sorry for the confusion.

Not only do I not agree with your statement, but it doesn't really address what I was talking about, but it also implies that we will never get within attack range of Falco.
DI DOES matter in that scenario, because at that percent they can't jump out after our utilt, and their only options are up and away, or up and towards (well, those are the two that minimize the damage they can take), and if we follow whichever way they are DIing, you do a ****ton of damage.

Also, the options you mention will only consistently work if both players fall into consistently predictable patterns. There are other ways to approach, or baiting approaches, but the powershielding and crouchwalking tend to be the best two, just like Falco's laser to SH phantasm is one of his best counters to these approaches. That being said, if he does it more than once or twice in a row, he will get wrecked. It works the same way for both sides, and indeed for most any character. Get predictable and you get wrecked.

I have no idea how my statements didn't address what you were talking about. Also, I don't have my Brawl disc at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that u-tilt is escape able, even at the lower percents. I apologize if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Also, what happens if Falco maintains the lead and the match goes to higher percentages? By that point, the camping hasn't changed and Falco is the only one with a reliable way to KO (SHSL -> DACUS), not to mention that our ways of damage racking become much more limited. Baiting approaches shouldn't work because Falco shouldn't be approaching.

As for falling into patterns, Falco's options may look similar, but the timing of each of his options can and should be different. If Kirby wants to avoid damage, he can duck, PS or spot dodge. All of those options are dictated by Falco taking an action. Falco can remain a step ahead with less effort than Kirby can. Again, this is only if Kirby can't get a lead. If he does, it becomes a whole new MU, where I can see Kirby having the clear advantage. From the word go though, this is what it will likely look like.

Falco has only 2 recovery options, and one is so gimpable that they will never use it unless they have to (which we can force them to do in some situations), which gives them a predictable recovery. It is good at going through many of our gimping options, but it is not ungimpable by any means. Bair, inhale and Fsmash will pretty consistently beat it since they almost always end up hitting one of the hurtboxes thanks to the space their hitboxes take up, not to mention the fact that guessing where they'll land isn't too hard in most cases, and with proper spacing you can Dair where they are vulnerable, though Falco shouldn't get caught up by that too much.
Now if you're beating their recovery close to the ground with Fsmash and SH Bair, that forces them to either grab the ledge with it, which can lead to easy edgehog deaths if your close to the ledge, or forces them to use it up higher, causing them to go in freefall unless there's a platform there, which gets them punished and resets the scenario.

Also, Pummel breaks and Ftilt put them in a bad position and often forces them to recover with UpB, which is so gimpable it's not even funny.

Granted, our gimping game isn't as effective as on some characters, but it still works quite well, and it's definitely better than what Falco can do to us (though that spike can be nasty if we're not careful.).

Fire-bird should never be used in this MU. Ever. Unless the Falco wants to die. Kirby can do so much to that move its not even funny. Bair, Dair, Inhale, in some rare cases stone... yeah. Its bad. OK, on to the second move...

As for the other, it seems we are arguing about phantasm being predictable again. I still hold that it doesn't have to be and here is why. Say that Kirby is close to the edge of the stage and Falco is pretty far out. In that situation, by all means Falco is pretty much done. You can almost guard the edge against him on reaction. If he is closer to the stage though (aka gimp percentages) then the game changes. Say that Kirby is next to the edge and Falco is coming in from above. Kirby has to guess which way Falco will go to successfully gimp. If Falco phantasms early (higher above the stage), he can long cancel it and slide to safety without worrying about Kirby because he is too slow to deal with it unless Kirby started moving at the beginning of the move. Ah, but wait, Falco can also decide to short cancel it and go for the ledge. Or, perhaps Falco FFs and goes for the ledge. Or not. He makes it look like he is going for the ledge, but then phantasms onto the stage. Falco has plenty of options to deal with Kirby's edge-guard game at lower percents (gimp percents). Yes, they are not reliable, but neither is Kirby's gimp game in this scenario, which is why I don't consider it to be a plus in this MU. Most of Kirby's moves that can get Falco off the stage have a fair amount of vertical knock-back as well as horizontal anyways. If Falco doesn't DI down, the latter situation will be much more common than the former.

As for pummel breaks, I have no need to argue. In that situation, Falco is in deep. There aren't any ways to set up that kind of situation with Kirby aside from luck though, and it should be considered as something to look out for on the part of the Falco, but it shouldn't be any more admissible in MU discussions than the Ninja-spike should be due to how absurdly situational it is.

Some of those stages allow us to play gay and air camp when in the lead, but yeah, you're pretty much right.

Speaking of stages though, we are also good on pretty much every stage, including JJ, which is where Falco is supposed to thrive and screw everyone else over, whereas Falco has bad stages/stages where we are vastly better than him (Rainbow Cruise, brinstar, PTAD when legal, FO, etc.).

Any stage with a decent sized central platform will allow for Falco to camp. Even if we do well on stages like JJ, it won't matter due to him still being able to camp. That said, all the other stages you mentioned definitely help Kirby's cause.

No idea, but for that matter, where's our frame data? Do we even have anything to compare theirs to?

t1mmy's guide has it. The Falco board's new guide has some frame data, but not all of it.

Yeah, but that's just a "Don't get hit/grabbed" thing. Falco will get hit, and most of our hits will lead to combos. He will take damage, and getting the killing blow isn't much harder than against any other campy character.

I could say the same thing about Kirby's approach tactics. Kirby will get hit, and since Falco's pressure is larger in this MU, it is more likely that Kirby will get hit more and make up any difference that Kirby's lager low percentage damage out-put can give. Oh, and what makes this MU different from other campers are Falco's options to get away...

And so, we shall disagree I guess. In the end, I don't really care too much for the number, but the matchup definitely doesn't feel even. I mean, it's definitely winnable for Falco, no doubt there, but we still have some advantages on him IMO. If I really had to put a number on it, it'd be 60-40, MAYBE 55-45.

I'm still at 50-50 myself. I hope this doesn't go around in circles, lol. Also, sorry if the Falco boards saw the discussion as dead, but I promised I would get back to fromundaman.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Summary/Recap

As far as I know this match-up is pretty much finished. I think enough evidience was placed forward for it to be 60-40/55-45 kirby's advantage. Not enough people see it as 50-50 and frankly lack of evidance supporting 50-50. Plus, the match-ups seem stage dependent. FD and JJ offer the best advantage for Falco. Many other stages gives Falco a disadvantage.

Plus, the thread is dead for the most part.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'll end it with a 60/40 ratio.

If anyone objects with arguments not given before, go ahead.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Camping Falcos... The point still stands in all MUs: gain % lead, then camp away and you have a winning MU as long as you keep that lead. Look at MK, for example: if he has 100% more than Wario (or even a stock more), all he really has to do is aircamp and plank, and he wins... But how many times has it happened at top levels of play? When was the last time a top MK beat a top Wario by planking and aircamping? It's an even matchup, and MK is the best aircamper in the game, and still he can't successfully outcamp a top Wario, and Wario has no projectile to countercamp MK.

Not to be nitpicky, but I'm not sure if you're watching the same videos as I am.

Meta Knight's best strategy against Wario is to get the lead and then wait for Wario to approach, period. In MK vs. Wario, this in itself works because Meta Knight's defensive game is stupidly good. Wario is forced to rush in and probably take more damage or risk losing due to time.

Mew2King plays too aggressively against Wario players. I can attest to that. When a Meta Knight plays properly, it's -at best- 40-60 in Meta Knight's favor.

As for Falco vs. Kirby, the same thing applies. It's not about literally running away for eight minutes--it's about forcing the Kirby to approach at all. Ground approaches are easily stuffed by Falco's jab and his scary grab. Air approaches are terribly slow--if Kirby takes to the air, Falco can Phantasm. It's as simple as that, and as a result, if Kirby definitely has to get in and get damage in, he's in a lose/lose situation. All it takes is a Falco that can use that desperation to get more openings and make the gap wider. Falco is capable of doing massive amount of damage from low percents, which means that if just took a stock, Kirby should be really worried.

 

[Plairnkk]

Not to be nitpicky, but I'm not sure if you're watching the same videos as I am.

Meta Knight's best strategy against Wario is to get the lead and then wait for Wario to approach, period. In MK vs. Wario, this in itself works because Meta Knight's defensive game is stupidly good. Wario is forced to rush in and probably take more damage or risk losing due to time.

Mew2King plays too aggressively against Wario players. I can attest to that. When a Meta Knight plays properly, it's -at best- 40-60 in Meta Knight's favor.

As for Falco vs. Kirby, the same thing applies. It's not about literally running away for eight minutes--it's about forcing the Kirby to approach at all. Ground approaches are easily stuffed by Falco's jab and his scary grab. Air approaches are terribly slow--if Kirby takes to the air, Falco can Phantasm. It's as simple as that, and as a result, if Kirby definitely has to get in and get damage in, he's in a lose/lose situation. All it takes is a Falco that can use that desperation to get more openings and make the gap wider. Falco is capable of doing massive amount of damage from low percents, which means that if just took a stock, Kirby should be really worried.

Yeah but you're acting like this is something new. In EVERY matchup in Brawl it's advantageous to get a lead and make the opponent approach. This is because the game mechanics alone make playing defensive when you have the load and making the opponent approach advantageous. You can say that with any matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah but you're acting like this is something new. In EVERY matchup in Brawl it's advantageous to get a lead and make the opponent approach. This is because the game mechanics alone make playing defensive when you have the load and making the opponent approach advantageous. You can say that with any matchup.

It's not that it's something new, but some character are better at approaching than others. Kirby just happens to be worse than the average, I think.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah maybe... kinda just have to approach with bairs and shield and grab and just switch it up. But I do agree its somewhat hard with Kirby in a game where approaching is already hard XD

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Oh, so in other words it should be 50-50.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ thrillagorilla you are so lucky just got home and don't feel like debating now, but I will debate about this when Kirby discuss Falco. D= ☆

 

[Commander_Beef]

Is this matchup more deadly for Falco than Marth versus Falco? What's the ratio for Marth and Falco?

 

[Notra]

Is this matchup more deadly for Falco than Marth versus Falco? What's the ratio for Marth and Falco?

no marths advantages come in when he spams grabs. he has 0-death if done right and can grab us out of jab combos and b-Up out of aaa. but back on topic kirby isnt as bad as marth.

 

[ChamP_SlayZ]

60/40 Kirby

Falco gets gimped easy.
Kirby is hard to laser.
No CG for falco.
And if kirby gets your power than get ready to get gimped on your recovery with your own lasers lol.
All in all Falco can most deffinitly win this match-up but it can be hard at times.Falco just needs to know what kirby can and can not do to win this match.
If u know nothing about kirby i think this can be a horrible match-up, but becomes more even when you learn a little about kirby.

 

[Gaspa]

Yeah but you're acting like this is something new. In EVERY matchup in Brawl it's advantageous to get a lead and make the opponent approach. This is because the game mechanics alone make playing defensive when you have the load and making the opponent approach advantageous. You can say that with any matchup.

It's not that it's something new. It's that Falco's playstyle matches *perfectly* with that defensive way brawl should be played, AND that kirby's approaches are below average vs falco.

All in all, it's not new, but this time is REALLY worth mentioning and highlighting, AND essential if you want to win the MU.

And please stop saying that falco is easily gimped. Anyone that says this has clearly not played the MU enough. He IS GIMPED, YES, but *NOT EASILY*. He is gimped at high percentages 66% of the time, cause it's all about mindgames there (except for one case: Kirby close to the ledge and falco vertically low and horizontally far from stage, that is a 100% guaranteed gimp for kirby, the same way it becomes 0% for kirby if he is far from the edge). But it will *ALMOST* never be gimped at low percents if the *falco DIs properly* and REALLY knows how to use his options(and how to cancel phantasm right, which I cannot get it to 100%, though I am close to 95%) at it's fullest potential.

NOTE: If kirby has your lasers it's really annoying to recover. However, If the falco AND kirby know what they are doing, kirby getting your power should not happen often because falco should be looking for things harder to avoid than that, and kirby will almost always have better options than inhaling.


My best friend plays kirby, I play falco. We brawl all the time. I've spent lots of rainy nights playing ONLY the kirby vs falco MU. In my personal experience I would say PERHAPS even, but no, I shall bend to 55-45 kirby's favor. But then again, here in Argentina there are not as much tourneys nor competition like there in the US, so just take it like a below-average brawler opinion. This is why I only posted things which I am almost certain about.

 

[fromundaman]

All in all Falco can most deffinitly win this match-up but it can be hard at times.Falco just needs to know what kirby can and can not do to win this match.
If u know nothing about kirby i think this can be a horrible match-up, but becomes more even when you learn a little about kirby.

The opposite can also be said.

I've learned what you can do, and you're not getting any more wins off of me!

 

[ChamP_SlayZ]

The opposite can also be said.

I've learned what you can do, and you're not getting any more wins off of me!

hahaha when we gonna get to play again??

 

[Mikha'el]

As a retired kirby mainer, i found falco to be one of the easier characters to approach. Most Falcos that i played always seem to rush in against kirby. Stay back and out of range of fairs, dairs, and early Utilts.

 

[fromundaman]

As a retired kirby mainer, i found falco to be one of the easier characters to approach. Most Falcos that i played always seem to rush in against kirby. Stay back and out of range of fairs, dairs, and early Utilts.

That's a good point.... if the Falco is playing like an idiot. Because of all that, the Falco player should be using the other stuff mentioned in this thread to ensure the Kirby player CAN'T approach.



Also, I think the discussion is pretty much done by now.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Well, there still isn't a general consensus as to what the ratio would be, but I don't think that's too important.

Tell me again what would make Kirby 70:30 over Falco. He can space really well with Bairs? Better than Falco zoning him with lasers and phatasms?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Kirby can use bairs really well to get you offstage, and once you're offstage a good kirby won't let you back on. Interupting phantasms with bair or dair, both gimping you. (bair leading to other bairs etc )

And bairs are unshieldgrabable if they kirby spaces it well. Kirby can jump over your lasers and avoid your upward hitboxes.

I think, because kirby is such a gimp, that 65/35 should be approperiate. Some characters just have an easier time taking advantage of Falco's recovery (Game n watch, kirby, jiggs)

 

[fromundaman]

Based on everything said in this thread, a rating between 50-50 and 60-40 is probably best.
I personally don't agree with it (well, the 60-40 I do), but that's besides the point.

Falco has:

-Lasers that can still disrupt us and set up combos, especially when we are in the air.
-A great jab.
-A good grab game which can set up for things, despite not CGing.
-Phantasm, that allows you to get away quickly, and stay out of range.
-Good disjoincts in general.
-A very good hyphen smash.



Kirby has:

-The tools to generally avoid lasers.
-The ability to take the lasers and camp you harder.
-The ability to rack up damage on you very fast due to your weight and our comboable moves.
-The ability to kill early if we can land a kill move.
-Follow ups to just about everything that hits.
-The tools to gimp your sub-par recovery.
-Inhale Break footstools, if we can manage to get it off... (Very rare)
-Better stages in general.



Essentially, Falco has to play a "Don't get hit" game, though with his specials and Kirby's lack of speed, this is not unfeasible, and you can avoid getting comboed while dealing damage, though the match will be very boring. You can also combo us fairly well.
All in all not unwinnable by any stretch, but Kirby does have an advantage IMO.