Marth matchup discussion

Guilhe · Jun 27, 2009

Link to the main matchup thread: [LINK]

Playing against Marths aways made me believe the 60:40 ratio in his favor was pure bull****. Please, Discuss.

Nidtendofreak · Jun 27, 2009

I play against a Marth in SA named Nike 20.

Key to this match: FAIR FAIR FAIR FAIR FAIR FAIR FAIR FAIR. Abuse that sucker. Marths aren't used to being outranged by other non-projectile attacks. Fair like there is no tomorrow.

I feel this match is 45-55 from Ike's point of view, but I'm too lazy to go into full detail right now.

Guilhe · Jun 27, 2009

Not only that but Nair outranges Marth aerials and jab has the same range of his Fair.

Nidtendofreak · Jun 27, 2009

He can Up B out of jab combos though if you try for much more then Jab->Jab (yays true combo). And countering aether is still a pain.

Does Nair really outrange his fair? I would have thought that his fair beat out our Nair by a tad....same with our jab VS their fair.

Nysyarc · Jun 27, 2009

I haven't fought too many different marths, but all the ones I have fought have enjoyed using aerial attacks as an approach. Ike's Fair obviously outranges all of Marth's aerials so if you notice the Marth is approaching with aerials a lot, just tap jump backwards and c-stick and Fair forwards to punish it or at least keep your spacing.

I've noticed Marth's recovery is very predictable, if he chooses to charge his Shield Breaker while off-stage, it's very easy to Fair or even spike him out of it as long as you know the timing. If he falls below the stage, a well timed walk-off Dair can get him before or even during his upB. Obviously this won't work all the time but if you notice a pattern in his recovery attempts, take advantage of it.

On some stages like BF or SV Marth can be dtilt spiked out of his upB before he sweetspots the ledge, I know because I've done it. It's actually very easy to predict when he'll do it because it has no vertical or horizontal control. But when it comes down to it, Marth can gimp Ike a lot easier. I've had my aether countered, edge-hogged and aerial attacked from behind more times than I can count. Try to stay on the stage in this fight as best as you can.

Oh, and watch out for his almost-chain-grab with fthrows at early %s, it's fairly easy to DI or tech out of so be ready if he starts to fthrow you. Obviously he can combo you with aerials, so don't let him close enough to start; space well, bait mistakes and punish them. Other than that, I don't know any Marth-specific advice, it's similar to most match-ups for Ike in my opinion: abuse your range, vary your jab game, don't use too many laggy moves (if any at all), and be careful and unpredictable when recovering.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, that's just from my limited experience fighting Marths.

Nysyarc · Jun 27, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Does Nair really outrange his fair? I would have thought that his fair beat out our Nair by a tad....same with our jab VS their fair.

It's very close... I've landed a few Nairs on Marth's who are approaching with Fair but I think it really depends who attacks first. It's a lot safer to just stick with your Fair in most situations.

Edit: Wow, how did I manage to double-post? I'm too used to my social group, my bad guys.

Nidtendofreak · Jun 27, 2009

Nysyarc said:
It's very close... I've landed a few Nairs on Marth's who are approaching with Fair but I think it really depends who attacks first. It's a lot safer to just stick with your Fair in most situations.

Edit: Wow, how did I manage to double-post? I'm too used to my social group, my bad guys.

I'm actually going to test that out in training mode.

As for Dtilting spiking: it works on Pirate Ship in the front of the ship AND knocks them into the hull for a stage spike KO. Fun fun. XD

EDIT: Marth's Fair > Ike's Jab in range. Testing Nair now.

EDIT2: Marth's Fair > Ike's Nair.

Melfice z · Jun 27, 2009

Marth can also give Ike a really tough time recovering, wether that be countering aethers or ledge hogging a QD. i think that deserves its own power shift of 5 in marths favor.

i havnt fought enough experienced marths to have a standing in this discussion so... thats my two cents ^__^;

Nysyarc · Jun 27, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
EDIT: Marth's Fair > Ike's Jab in range. Testing Nair now.

EDIT2: Marth's Fair > Ike's Nair.

Yah I figured his Fair outranges our jab, even if it was the same range I don't see how that would be very useful. As for the Nair, like I said it depends when and where Ike uses his Nair. Marth's Fair has more range and comes out faster, but if you time it right or maybe hit with one of the more peripheral parts of Nair's hitbox, it can still win the clash.

Melfice z said:
Marth can also give Ike a really tough time recovering, wether that be countering aethers or ledge hogging a QD. i think that deserves its own power shift of 5 in marths favor.

I agree, but there are ways to at least prevent excessive gimping. Obviously never leaving the stage is favorable, but assuming the Marth is consistently knocking you off the edge, you do have some options.

Aether, despite his ability to counter it, is still preferable to QD in most situations. QD can be easily edge-hogged or otherwise punished in a variety of ways by almost every character. The only time you should use QD recovery is if you notice Marth is preparing to gimp your aether earlier than he should be, in which case you can QD above him and onto the stage (preferable on stages like BF where you can QD to a platform).

It's all about trusting your control of Ike and instead watching Marth to determine how he is going to try and gimp you. If he's standing back away from the edge, risk a fast QD to the edge rather than falling and using a late aether. If he's up close to the edge, save your jump and use that along with an airdodge to throw off whatever he has planned and then recover with aether quickly (never go for the edge with aether when Marth is off-stage with you, his upB will get there first 95% of the time).

In fact, saving your double-jump for a crucial moment is a big part of recovery for Ike. Never use your double-jump right away when you are knocked flying, it eliminates many of your recovery options.

Nidtendofreak · Jun 27, 2009

Melfice z said:
Marth can also give Ike a really tough time recovering, wether that be countering aethers or ledge hogging a QD. i think that deserves its own power shift of 5 in marths favor.

i havnt fought enough experienced marths to have a standing in this discussion so... thats my two cents ^__^;

IIRC, reversing aether makes it so counter doesn't hit you.

Or does that only work with Mario's cape? >_>

Nysyarc · Jun 27, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
IIRC, reversing aether makes it so counter doesn't hit you.

Or does that only work with Mario's cape? >_>

Maybe we should test that, cause if it's true that would be one problem out of the way.

Guilhe · Jun 27, 2009

There must be something wrong with your testing Nid, I’m sure Nair outranges Marth´s Fair. Because of that, I don’t agree that retreating Fair is Ike’s only or best option for spacing against Marth, Nair is preferable at low percents for combo purposes and it is safer against an aggressive Marth than Fair. Also, I wouldn’t give five points for Marth because he can counter Aether or ledgehog QD (Oh, he is so special…), It’s easy to not get gimped by counter. It’s easy to see it coming, and spacing Aether while DI’ing up it’s all it needs to avoid it. If the Marth counters, you will be sent up, from there you can just QD and reach the stage before Marth with minimal percentage increase. Also, NEVER reverse Aether. If Marth counters it you’ll be stage spike’d.

Ike can also gimp Marth very well. Ledgehog -> Uair will kill at low percentages and walk-off Fair -> reverse Aether is a guaranteed kill though not in very low percentages. Also, Marth is very vulnerable to attacks from below him.

I don’t believe that Ike is in advantage versus Marth, a tippered Fair or Fsmash have the horizontal knockback that Ike hates so much, but I believe we got a 50:50 here.

Steel · Jun 27, 2009

50:50? Wtf?

This is in no way an even match up.

Ike takes a risk every time he attacks unless he jabs, but Marth can punish you for it with his up b. That makes his jab unrelaible to use which isn't good, since it's his main pressure tool.

He can't zone Marth effectively at all. All you have is retreating fair and retreating bair while Marth's control game is WAY better. He's a faster and safer attacker and has better pressure tools, pokes, and punishing game.

Marth has a way better gimping game. The only thing you can try to do is a reverse up b and counter won't do anything, but Marth can still run out and FF a fair.

Ike simply doesn't have the tools and attributes to CONSISTENTLY and RELIABLY rack up damage on Marth. Marth is a much superior character.

It's at BEST 60-40. Some of the things you guys are talking about above are simply.. silly >_>;

Nidtendofreak · Jun 27, 2009

50:50 is wrong.

My testing, however, is correct. I move Ike until I could *just* hit Marth, who was standing on a line. I'd move Marth back to the EXACT same spot, and try to fair. The last part of the attack, where it sticks out the farthest, hits Ike with a tipper. I'll be blunt and say I have no clue where you got the idea those two attacks outrange his fair. They can beat it out if he spaces incorrectly, but he outranges them.

However, neither is it worse then 6-4 Marth's favor from Ike's perspective.

Jab isn't unreliable. In the Jab1->Jab1->Grab-> (pummels optional) -> Bthrow->Dash Attack combo, Marth has ONE frame he can Up out of it. ONE. Between Jab 1 and Grab. That's it. The rest is a true combo. That's both reliable pressure, and reliable damage racking. And quite frankly, Marth can't take many of those before he's in KOing range.

Zoning wise, Fair works amazingly, and does Nair and Bair even though they don't outrange his fair. Instead, they AC on landing. Meaning they are perfectly usable against Marth for both retreating and approaching.

And while Ike suffers if he's sent off stage, Marth suffers if he's send above Ike, particularly onto a platform, like from a throw onto one. His dair frankly stinks, and that's all that hits below him. Add in the fact his AD is one of the worse, and Marth is very much open to Uair if just in the air, or Utilt/Usmash/Fsmash/Eruption/Aether if he lands on a platform.

It's not a huge advantage for Marth in any way. It's Marth's advantage for sure, but not a big one. 45-55 to 4-6 range.

PrinceAlus · Jun 28, 2009

Marth is a tricky character to fight against with Ike. He does out range Marth yes, but it doesn't uphold well since Marth can give a possibility of a severe punishment to everything Ike does...the safest thing Ike may do is a retreating bair or a retreating Fair if you space very well... And there are times when Fair can still be punished.

The only time Marth is clearly venerable to Ike is through a platform,where Ike can pressure him...but Marth cannot pressure Ike.

Marth can shield, just want to point this out...and especially vs Ike he...(referring to Marth.) has some very good out of shield moves.

Marth also has a great offstage advantage. His Fair and Dolphin slash and even counter can be a real ***** to me, even on low %s. And it isn't that difficult to get you off stage either...Hope for the best.

The inch about gimping Marth is that if you mess up it is likely that you're losing a stock...Unless he is below the stage (ahaha F-tilt)...then try your best to edge hog him.

Wanna know what it feels like to fight Marth with ike? Get a full sized carrot, and shove it as far up your *** as you can...then you pretty much know how the matchup feels...

35/65 IMO

Guilhe · Jun 28, 2009

Steel2nd said:
Ike takes a risk every time he attacks unless he jabs, but Marth can punish you for it with his up b. That makes his jab unrelaible to use which isn't good, since it's his main pressure tool.

Ike takes no risks with spaced Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, and a lot of his risky moves like Ftilt or Utilt when spaced correctly has enough knockback and shieldstun to cancel before Marth can reach to punish after shield contact. Using Dolphin Slash to punish jab is unreliable, jab to jab is a true combo, the Ike player can just keep jabbing Marth until he is out of reach for UpB punishment before canceling into a tilt or Bair. Also, Ike can abuse platforms and Marth’s vulnerability from bellow quite well. I would like to discuss with you on platform abuse.

Steel2nd said:
He can't zone Marth effectively at all. All you have is retreating fair and retreating bair while Marth's control game is WAY better. He's a faster and safer attacker and has better pressure tools, pokes, and punishing game.

Arguably, neither can Marth zone Ike effectively. Ike also has Nair, and Fair isn’t limited for retreating. Marth control game might be better, he is a high tier character after all, but this is matchup specific we are discussing, so before spamming “my character is better” try to elaborate how does that apply to the matchup. Or you were expecting the tier list was an argument for 60:40?

Steel2nd said:
Marth has a way better gimping game. The only thing you can try to do is a reverse up b and counter won't do anything, but Marth can still run out and FF a fair.

As I’ve said in my last post Ledgehog -> Uair kills early, Fair -> reverse Aether kills right away (Maybe Marth can escape with proper SDI, but I’m not sure, every Marth I’ve caught in it died), against a properly spaced Aether and proper DI, Marth’s counter will just cause minimal damage and Ike will be back to stage before Marth. Now, what Marth can do besides a FF Fair?

Steel2nd said:
Ike simply doesn't have the tools and attributes to CONSISTENTLY and RELIABLY rack up damage on Marth. Marth is a much superior character.

All I can say is, besides lol, please refer to our completely outdated guide to Ike and take a look at the damage Ike’s attacks (like jab for example) does. Ike can rack the hell out of you.

Steel2nd said:
It's at BEST 60-40. Some of the things you guys are talking about above are simply.. silly >_>;

If you're willing to take us seriously, we would like to discuss the aspects of this matchup that led you to that conclusion.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

PrinceAlus said:
Marth is a tricky character to fight against with Ike. He does out range Marth yes, but it doesn't uphold well since Marth can give a possibility of a severe punishment to everything Ike does...the safest thing Ike may do is a retreating bair or a retreating Fair if you space very well... And there are times when Fair can still be punished.

The only time Marth is clearly venerable to Ike is through a platform,where Ike can pressure him...but Marth cannot pressure Ike.

Marth can shield, just want to point this out...and especially vs Ike he...(referring to Marth.) has some very good out of shield moves.

Marth also has a great offstage advantage. His Fair and Dolphin slash and even counter can be a real ***** to me, even on low %s. And it isn't that difficult to get you off stage either...Hope for the best.

The inch about gimping Marth is that if you mess up it is likely that you're losing a stock...Unless he is below the stage (ahaha F-tilt)...then try your best to edge hog him.

Wanna know what it feels like to fight Marth with ike? Get a full sized carrot, and shove it as far up your *** as you can...then you pretty much know how the matchup feels...

35/65 IMO

I disagree. I've fought a few good marths and I've seen professional Ikes fighting professional Marths and with that, I disagree. I say 60:40 Marth's favor at most. The outranging bit is key. As long as Ike plays it smart, doesn't use moves that have excessive landing lag and spaces well, abusing his Fair, he can dominate Marth on the stage.

Now assuming that fails, there's also Ike's jab game to consider, which in the hands of a great player can sprout many damage-racking combos. It's true Marth is faster than Ike and can punish well, but Ike doesn't have to play perfectly, he just has to play carefully. As you said, Ike has the advantage when platforms are involved, so I would give him a better match-up on a stage like Battlefield (but still probably not over 50:50).

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the bit about shielding, it's fairly easy to space Fairs around shields and I mean... Ike has a shield too which he can attack out of just as well as Marth can.

Marth's offstage advantage is real, but not 'great'. As long as you know what you're doing, save your second jump, mix up your recovery options and try to predict how he wants to gimp you, you should be okay. Ike can actually edge-guard Marth very well because Marth's recovery is just as predictable as Ike's. Dolphin slash may not be as gimpable as aether, but it is nevertheless gimpable on certain stages.

I say for edgeguarding though, you don't try to gimp Marth unless you've figured out his recovery method and you know he's going to do it every time, because you can be punished for an attempted gimp if you fail. Staying on the stage and punishing his attempts to get off the ledge with Fairs and Nairs is a better idea in general.

Guilhe · Jun 28, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
My testing, however, is correct. I move Ike until I could *just* hit Marth, who was standing on a line. I'd move Marth back to the EXACT same spot, and try to fair. The last part of the attack, where it sticks out the farthest, hits Ike with a tipper. I'll be blunt and say I have no clue where you got the idea those two attacks outrange his fair. They can beat it out if he spaces incorrectly, but he outranges them.

I've already punished Fair approaches with Nair upon prediction, I must have hit them before their Fair hitbox turned active. As for the jab I confess it was a wild aproximation, I should have said "almost to the range of Fair" but it still gets outranged by a sensible amount.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

Guilhe said:
I've already punished Fair approaches with Nair upon prediction, I must have hit them before their Fair hitbox turned active.

Yah I've done that too, like I mentioned before, it's just based on who gets the hit off first. Ike has to use Nair quite a bit earlier than Marth has to use Fair though, since the hitbox for his Fair comes out faster. If timed and spaced right though, you can get him with it and if you're close to the ground you can string it into a jab at low %s.

Guilhe · Jun 28, 2009

Which strings should Marth use against Ike?

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

Well, be wary of his grabs at low %s, his Fthrow can combo into another Fthrow at least once, maybe twice before it's escapable and even then he can combo into some aerials out of it. Most of his aerials, especially Fair can combo into other things, even themselves at low %s. I think Marth is at a disadvantage when Ike is in middling %s, like 30-70% range, because it's difficult for Marth to combo him and he doesn't have any moves that can KO that early.

Basically Marth can and likely will combo the crap out of you at low %s, all it takes is one grab or Fair to get it started. It can be expected that unless you avoid being hit at all, you're going to take a string of 25-30% before things get a bit easier.

Teh Brettster · Jun 28, 2009

I think it's around 35-65. Definitely somewhere between 4-6 and 3-7.
That's just my 2 cents.

Oh and Marth definitely has early kill moves. Have you seen a tipped Fsmash?
And he can Fthrow us twice before getting a free tipped Fsmash. That's about 30%. Only a couple hits more and we're in easy kill range from another tip.
His counter is a ***** to Aether (he can run off the edge and then counter, which sucks). He can zone us with less effort than we need to zone him. We have to make him mess up his spacing to be able to get in. He can spam Fairs. We can't really.
Basically, in this match-up, we need to really out-think and out-play the Marth to win.
At least he's kind of light.

I'm way too tired to write any more.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

Guilhe said:
Ike takes no risks with spaced Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, and a lot of his risky moves like Ftilt or Utilt when spaced correctly has enough knockback and shieldstun to cancel before Marth can reach to punish after shield contact. Using Dolphin Slash to punish jab is unreliable, jab to jab is a true combo, the Ike player can just keep jabbing Marth until he is out of reach for UpB punishment before canceling into a tilt or Bair. Also, Ike can abuse platforms and Marth’s vulnerability from bellow quite well. I would like to discuss with you on platform abuse.

His attacks are too slow to reliably zone with. And why do you keep going on about platform abuse? This is something EVERY character has against Marth. However, Marth also very good platform control, counter picking battlefield against Marth is a bad move.

I didn't say DS made jab bad, I said it made it less reliable than it usually. It's still one of the best tools in the match up, but Marth can easily outspace it.

Arguably, neither can Marth zone Ike effectively. Ike also has Nair, and Fair isn’t limited for retreating. Marth control game might be better, he is a high tier character after all, but this is matchup specific we are discussing, so before spamming “my character is better” try to elaborate how does that apply to the matchup. Or you were expecting the tier list was an argument for 60:40?

Marth can't zone Ike? lol

Have you seen Marth's dtilt? It covers every freaking option you have, and if it touches your shield you're taking damage, no questions. Marth is too fast of an attacker to say Ike can't be zoned. Ike's tools don't allow him to compete with it. He has no reliable way to get away from fair, dtilt, and jab zoning.

As I’ve said in my last post Ledgehog -> Uair kills early, Fair -> reverse Aether kills right away (Maybe Marth can escape with proper SDI, but I’m not sure, every Marth I’ve caught in it died), against a properly spaced Aether and proper DI, Marth’s counter will just cause minimal damage and Ike will be back to stage before Marth. Now, what Marth can do besides a FF Fair?

Marth can stall with his forward b to mess with your up air shenanigans. It isn't reliable enough and can end up getting you stage spiked.

Marth covers every one of Ike's options when recovering. Theoretically, Marth could make it impossible for Ike to get back up. Ike should make sure his aether could reach the stage when doing his up b to be safe. When facing NEO's Ike that's usually his best method.

Also, Ike has a way harder time actually getting up from the ledge. Marth's ledge traps also cover all of your options.

All I can say is, besides lol, please refer to our completely outdated guide to Ike and take a look at the damage Ike’s attacks (like jab for example) does. Ike can rack the hell out of you.

If you're willing to take us seriously, we would like to discuss the aspects of this matchup that led you to that conclusion.

You don't even know what I'm saying. Ike's jab could do 100% for all I care, it still isn't a RELIABLE way to rack up damage with because Marth can outspace/outspeed him.

Reliable and consistent doesn't mean "how much damage do these attacks do," it means "do I have ways to consistently hit Marth with these attacks?" Marth on the other hand, definitely does.

It's 65-35 or 60-40, Marth boards gave it 60-40 simply because of Ike's KO power and he's heavy.

Ussi · Jun 28, 2009

First off, reverse aether will cause Marth to hit the other way BUT he he does it OFF STAGE then you WILL get staged spiked if you don't tech it. Big emphasis on tech but then you need to tech the DS that's gonna come.

The thing about Marth with zoning Ike is that he doesn't have to get THAT close to Ike since he has RANGE. Marth can move in the air fairly well with his range and speed he can close in on Ike before Ike does anything. Ike however has longer range, so he needs to READ Marth on where he will weave in to strike Ike. Fair will beat his attacks and nair/uair will beat his AD.

Problem with Marth is that he punishes harder than what Ike can punish him for. If Marth punishes Ike with a fair and can continue the pressure and net more damage quite easily. Marth racks damage on Ike much more better and harder than what Ike can do to him. Ike can't put a continuous pressure as easily since Marth's counter is so **** fast and all but bair and jab are so slow that counter can be used on reaction when in pressure. Ike has to work harder to win =\

DS will NOT interrupt a jab 1 > jab 1 combo as it a TRUE combo. Jab 2 > jab 1 however is not a true combo, and jab has 7 frames of hitstun. o.o pretty sure Ike's grab takes 7 frames.

However Marth can DS OoS if you jab his shield and he isn't planning on using DS to kill but to damage. Which pretty much makes life harder since Marth can just gimp Ike.

Marth can DS OUT OF AETHER when he is being HIT from it.

I personally think its 35-65, but could be 40-60 since I don't play a Marth regularly to know how to effectively fight Marth and such. Ryko makes fighting Marth look so easy xD

Teh Brettster · Jun 28, 2009

Steel2nd said:
Have you seen Marth's dtilt? It covers every freaking option you have, and if it touches your shield you're taking damage, no questions. Marth is too fast of an attacker to say Ike can't be zoned. Ike's tools don't allow him to compete with it. He has no reliable way to get away from fair, dtilt, and jab zoning.

Well, there is always counter... which none of your moveset outranges.

Marth can stall with his forward b to mess with your up air shenanigans. It isn't reliable enough and can end up getting you stage spiked.

Yeah.. that's why we don't follow Marth offstage, hahahaha. We already know that.

Marth covers every one of Ike's options when recovering. Theoretically, Marth could make it impossible for Ike to get back up. Ike should make sure his aether could reach the stage when doing his up b to be safe. When facing NEO's Ike that's usually his best method.

If the Marth knows exactly what we're doing, this could be true. But don't expect us to die every time we're past the ledge....

Also, Ike has a way harder time actually getting up from the ledge. Marth's ledge traps also cover all of your options.

Again, counter can get through any of your attacks. We can also let go of the ledge and jump up with a Nair, Fair, or AD.
Ledge games are always like rock paper scissors.

You don't even know what I'm saying. Ike's jab could do 100% for all I care, it still isn't a RELIABLE way to rack up damage with because Marth can outspace/outspeed him.

You act like we should never ever ever hit you, even once.
This is dumb.

Reliable and consistent doesn't mean "how much damage do these attacks do," it means "do I have ways to consistently hit Marth with these attacks?" Marth on the other hand, definitely does.

K. Let's see what you say for your match-up numbers.

It's 65-35 or 60-40, Marth boards gave it 60-40 simply because of Ike's KO power and he's heavy.

WHAT?
You have accurate numbers.
The way you were talking made it seem like you had a 90-10 or something funny like that. Man, what a waste of a post I just typed up.
At least we can agree on numbers.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

Was "counter" an argument for half of your post?

I.. don't even know what to say.

And of course we're going to get hit, however only if Marth messes up. On the other hand, Marth doesn't have to force Ike to make mistakes to rack up damage.

Teh Brettster · Jun 28, 2009

As a matter of fact... no.
Good gravy, why do people turn into such *******es in match-up discussions?
You and I already agreed on about 35-65, did we not? It's a tough match-up for Ike. No lie. Nothing that you said and nothing that I said will happen every time.
Happy? Get over yourself and don't put people down with such antagonistic tones in your posts. Otherwise, get out of our discussion.
I'm really tired of people doing that.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

You edited your post after I posted.

And whether or not we agree on a ratio I still feel inclined to refute your points.

Teh Brettster · Jun 28, 2009

Steel2nd said:
You edited your post after I posted.

And whether or not we agree on a ratio I still feel inclined to refute your points.

Feel free to do so without seeming so caustic. Debate. Don't argue. Just don't be a jerk. You're a moderator, aren't you? Please act like you know better.

Kimchi · Jun 28, 2009

I'm sorry Ikes, but I'm going to have to agree with Steel2nd here. Nair -> Jab is a pretty obvious followup and Marth can simply counter by DSing. Disagree with me if you want, but I highly highly recommend a full ground approach against Marth. Barely any of Ike's aerial approaches is useful against a good Marth who knows when and where to OOS DS. Steel2nd is also correct about Marth's Dtilt. Completely covers most of Ike's options. Ike has to abuse grabs as well as jabbing where appropriate to win this matchup. Ike's Fair is just god awful in this matchup, because Marth can simply run in and use Dancing Blade or he can whiff a Dtilt or a Ftilt if Ike uses retreating Fair.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

Probably because whenever I do match up discussions I often walk into a thread where most people don't have a clue about Marth and try to act like they know what they're talking about. see: Guilhe

Most of the first page was garbage, I'm sure you could see that. You seem like one of the smarter Ike's in this community. But hey, most Marth's have an elitist attitude in match up debates. But we have huge ego's too when it comes to board quality.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

End the petty arguments, match-up ratios don't matter much to me anyways, I don't look at the ratio, I read the discussions. Even a 90:10 ratio means squat if the player using the disadvantaged character is a pro and the one with the advantaged character is a scrub. If Ike plays a flawless game, it might as well be 100:0 for him, if Marth plays a flawless game, 100:0 his favor.

My point? A match-up should have nothing to do with variables based on things like mind-games, skill, and etc. We should be looking at the range, speed and usefulness of attacks, ATs and combos, and ways the the other character can counteract those things assuming that the same person is playing both characters, so same skill level.

Even things like punishing shouldn't be considered because that's assuming that the other player does something punishable, which is a variable. It's true, Ike can be gimped and Marth can be gimped, but whether or not they are depends on a crap load of things, so I don't think edge-games should have a very big role in match-ups.

If we're just discussing all the possibilities, then fine, bring variables into it, but ratios should have nothing to do with those variables.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

Nysyarc: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705 . I think you'd like that thread

You're right for the most part, however punishing game is still something that should be considered. We still take into consideration that both players won't be playing perfect.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

Pffft I don't care about being right, I just stated my opinion and it's not changing anytime soon. Even if someone makes a mistake, are we assuming the other person knows how to punish it and will execute the punishment perfectly?

Anyways that doesn't matter, on with the match-up discussion. I'm gonna go back and read a few things and then contribute, one sec.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

Well, yes we are. Since we're discussing two players at the top of their characters' metagame.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

Yah but that's still taking human fallibility into the equation, which doesn't make sense to me. The characters themselves should be studied, evaluated and compared, not what the players can and may do with them.

Edit: I worded that kind of badly, obviously we have to take into consideration the fact that the characters will be played by players, but we should be more concerned with what the characters can do rather than what the players can do. If you know what I mean.

Steel · Jun 28, 2009

We are discussing the character's though. However, you HAVE to know that a PLAYER is using them. That's why we can't just compare it with two CPUs fighting each other. But that's where you have to draw the line, that a player is playing them. If you go any further you get caught up in mind games and all that crap.

Nysyarc · Jun 28, 2009

I agree, I mean we have to take things like ATs and combos that the A.I. would never use into consideration. Anyways let's get back into the Ike/Marth discussion, I agree with your last post so let's end it there.

Rykoshet · Jun 28, 2009

It's a 6-4 on paper, it's closer to a 7-3 in practice. Granted I havent been active with ike in a while but even when I was fighting pierce was never actually fun.

Rykoshet · Jun 28, 2009

You spend a lot of time just throwing moves in hopes marth doesnt get in on you and otherwise he gets away with murder in comparison when it comes to spacing and stopping punishment, which is all ike's good for anyway.

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