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It's very close... I've landed a few Nairs on Marth's who are approaching with Fair but I think it really depends who attacks first. It's a lot safer to just stick with your Fair in most situations.Does Nair really outrange his fair? I would have thought that his fair beat out our Nair by a tad....same with our jab VS their fair.
I'm actually going to test that out in training mode.It's very close... I've landed a few Nairs on Marth's who are approaching with Fair but I think it really depends who attacks first. It's a lot safer to just stick with your Fair in most situations.
Edit: Wow, how did I manage to double-post? I'm too used to my social group, my bad guys.
Yah I figured his Fair outranges our jab, even if it was the same range I don't see how that would be very useful. As for the Nair, like I said it depends when and where Ike uses his Nair. Marth's Fair has more range and comes out faster, but if you time it right or maybe hit with one of the more peripheral parts of Nair's hitbox, it can still win the clash.EDIT: Marth's Fair > Ike's Jab in range. Testing Nair now.
EDIT2: Marth's Fair > Ike's Nair.
I agree, but there are ways to at least prevent excessive gimping. Obviously never leaving the stage is favorable, but assuming the Marth is consistently knocking you off the edge, you do have some options.Marth can also give Ike a really tough time recovering, wether that be countering aethers or ledge hogging a QD. i think that deserves its own power shift of 5 in marths favor.
IIRC, reversing aether makes it so counter doesn't hit you.Marth can also give Ike a really tough time recovering, wether that be countering aethers or ledge hogging a QD. i think that deserves its own power shift of 5 in marths favor.
i havnt fought enough experienced marths to have a standing in this discussion so... thats my two cents ^__^;
Maybe we should test that, cause if it's true that would be one problem out of the way.IIRC, reversing aether makes it so counter doesn't hit you.
Or does that only work with Mario's cape? >_>
Ike takes no risks with spaced Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, and a lot of his risky moves like Ftilt or Utilt when spaced correctly has enough knockback and shieldstun to cancel before Marth can reach to punish after shield contact. Using Dolphin Slash to punish jab is unreliable, jab to jab is a true combo, the Ike player can just keep jabbing Marth until he is out of reach for UpB punishment before canceling into a tilt or Bair. Also, Ike can abuse platforms and Marth’s vulnerability from bellow quite well. I would like to discuss with you on platform abuse.Ike takes a risk every time he attacks unless he jabs, but Marth can punish you for it with his up b. That makes his jab unrelaible to use which isn't good, since it's his main pressure tool.
Arguably, neither can Marth zone Ike effectively. Ike also has Nair, and Fair isn’t limited for retreating. Marth control game might be better, he is a high tier character after all, but this is matchup specific we are discussing, so before spamming “my character is better” try to elaborate how does that apply to the matchup. Or you were expecting the tier list was an argument for 60:40?He can't zone Marth effectively at all. All you have is retreating fair and retreating bair while Marth's control game is WAY better. He's a faster and safer attacker and has better pressure tools, pokes, and punishing game.
As I’ve said in my last post Ledgehog -> Uair kills early, Fair -> reverse Aether kills right away (Maybe Marth can escape with proper SDI, but I’m not sure, every Marth I’ve caught in it died), against a properly spaced Aether and proper DI, Marth’s counter will just cause minimal damage and Ike will be back to stage before Marth. Now, what Marth can do besides a FF Fair?Marth has a way better gimping game. The only thing you can try to do is a reverse up b and counter won't do anything, but Marth can still run out and FF a fair.
All I can say is, besides lol, please refer to our completely outdated guide to Ike and take a look at the damage Ike’s attacks (like jab for example) does. Ike can rack the hell out of you.Ike simply doesn't have the tools and attributes to CONSISTENTLY and RELIABLY rack up damage on Marth. Marth is a much superior character.
If you're willing to take us seriously, we would like to discuss the aspects of this matchup that led you to that conclusion.It's at BEST 60-40. Some of the things you guys are talking about above are simply.. silly >_>;
I disagree. I've fought a few good marths and I've seen professional Ikes fighting professional Marths and with that, I disagree. I say 60:40 Marth's favor at most. The outranging bit is key. As long as Ike plays it smart, doesn't use moves that have excessive landing lag and spaces well, abusing his Fair, he can dominate Marth on the stage.Marth is a tricky character to fight against with Ike. He does out range Marth yes, but it doesn't uphold well since Marth can give a possibility of a severe punishment to everything Ike does...the safest thing Ike may do is a retreating bair or a retreating Fair if you space very well... And there are times when Fair can still be punished.
The only time Marth is clearly venerable to Ike is through a platform,where Ike can pressure him...but Marth cannot pressure Ike.
Marth can shield, just want to point this out...and especially vs Ike he...(referring to Marth.) has some very good out of shield moves.
Marth also has a great offstage advantage. His Fair and Dolphin slash and even counter can be a real ***** to me, even on low %s. And it isn't that difficult to get you off stage either...Hope for the best.
The inch about gimping Marth is that if you mess up it is likely that you're losing a stock...Unless he is below the stage (ahaha F-tilt)...then try your best to edge hog him.
Wanna know what it feels like to fight Marth with ike? Get a full sized carrot, and shove it as far up your *** as you can...then you pretty much know how the matchup feels...
35/65 IMO
I've already punished Fair approaches with Nair upon prediction, I must have hit them before their Fair hitbox turned active. As for the jab I confess it was a wild aproximation, I should have said "almost to the range of Fair" but it still gets outranged by a sensible amount.My testing, however, is correct. I move Ike until I could *just* hit Marth, who was standing on a line. I'd move Marth back to the EXACT same spot, and try to fair. The last part of the attack, where it sticks out the farthest, hits Ike with a tipper. I'll be blunt and say I have no clue where you got the idea those two attacks outrange his fair. They can beat it out if he spaces incorrectly, but he outranges them.
Yah I've done that too, like I mentioned before, it's just based on who gets the hit off first. Ike has to use Nair quite a bit earlier than Marth has to use Fair though, since the hitbox for his Fair comes out faster. If timed and spaced right though, you can get him with it and if you're close to the ground you can string it into a jab at low %s.I've already punished Fair approaches with Nair upon prediction, I must have hit them before their Fair hitbox turned active.
His attacks are too slow to reliably zone with. And why do you keep going on about platform abuse? This is something EVERY character has against Marth. However, Marth also very good platform control, counter picking battlefield against Marth is a bad move.Ike takes no risks with spaced Fairs, Nairs, Bairs, and a lot of his risky moves like Ftilt or Utilt when spaced correctly has enough knockback and shieldstun to cancel before Marth can reach to punish after shield contact. Using Dolphin Slash to punish jab is unreliable, jab to jab is a true combo, the Ike player can just keep jabbing Marth until he is out of reach for UpB punishment before canceling into a tilt or Bair. Also, Ike can abuse platforms and Marth’s vulnerability from bellow quite well. I would like to discuss with you on platform abuse.
Marth can't zone Ike? lolArguably, neither can Marth zone Ike effectively. Ike also has Nair, and Fair isn’t limited for retreating. Marth control game might be better, he is a high tier character after all, but this is matchup specific we are discussing, so before spamming “my character is better” try to elaborate how does that apply to the matchup. Or you were expecting the tier list was an argument for 60:40?
Marth can stall with his forward b to mess with your up air shenanigans. It isn't reliable enough and can end up getting you stage spiked.As I’ve said in my last post Ledgehog -> Uair kills early, Fair -> reverse Aether kills right away (Maybe Marth can escape with proper SDI, but I’m not sure, every Marth I’ve caught in it died), against a properly spaced Aether and proper DI, Marth’s counter will just cause minimal damage and Ike will be back to stage before Marth. Now, what Marth can do besides a FF Fair?
You don't even know what I'm saying. Ike's jab could do 100% for all I care, it still isn't a RELIABLE way to rack up damage with because Marth can outspace/outspeed him.All I can say is, besides lol, please refer to our completely outdated guide to Ike and take a look at the damage Ike’s attacks (like jab for example) does. Ike can rack the hell out of you.
If you're willing to take us seriously, we would like to discuss the aspects of this matchup that led you to that conclusion.
Well, there is always counter... which none of your moveset outranges.Have you seen Marth's dtilt? It covers every freaking option you have, and if it touches your shield you're taking damage, no questions. Marth is too fast of an attacker to say Ike can't be zoned. Ike's tools don't allow him to compete with it. He has no reliable way to get away from fair, dtilt, and jab zoning.
Yeah.. that's why we don't follow Marth offstage, hahahaha. We already know that.Marth can stall with his forward b to mess with your up air shenanigans. It isn't reliable enough and can end up getting you stage spiked.
If the Marth knows exactly what we're doing, this could be true. But don't expect us to die every time we're past the ledge....Marth covers every one of Ike's options when recovering. Theoretically, Marth could make it impossible for Ike to get back up. Ike should make sure his aether could reach the stage when doing his up b to be safe. When facing NEO's Ike that's usually his best method.
Again, counter can get through any of your attacks. We can also let go of the ledge and jump up with a Nair, Fair, or AD.Also, Ike has a way harder time actually getting up from the ledge. Marth's ledge traps also cover all of your options.
You act like we should never ever ever hit you, even once.You don't even know what I'm saying. Ike's jab could do 100% for all I care, it still isn't a RELIABLE way to rack up damage with because Marth can outspace/outspeed him.
K. Let's see what you say for your match-up numbers.Reliable and consistent doesn't mean "how much damage do these attacks do," it means "do I have ways to consistently hit Marth with these attacks?" Marth on the other hand, definitely does.
WHAT?It's 65-35 or 60-40, Marth boards gave it 60-40 simply because of Ike's KO power and he's heavy.
Feel free to do so without seeming so caustic. Debate. Don't argue. Just don't be a jerk. You're a moderator, aren't you? Please act like you know better.You edited your post after I posted.
And whether or not we agree on a ratio I still feel inclined to refute your points.