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::: Z E R O 2 D ::: -- now with 100% more M3D

TheBuzzSaw

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[size=-2]thanks Zolga for the logo![/size]

http://www.zero2d.com/ - Zero2D community! -- we even have an IRC
http://code.google.com/p/zero2d/

--- --- ---

This has been a long time coming. I have always wanted to make my own PC game fighter. I feel that now is the time to begin seriously forming a design specification. Here are the important facts surrounding this idea:

* Zero2D will be built in the spirit of MUGEN. It will operate as a generic engine and allow the community to add characters and stages freely.
* Zero2D will be written in C++ for optimal performance and guaranteed support for the big three (Windows, Macintosh, and GNU/Linux).
* Zero2D will be a 2D fighter using sprites. This is to ensure that anyone can contribute to the fighter/stage rosters.
* Zero2D will be open source. Programmers can contribute to the engine, while the rest of the community will help form characters and stages (no programming knowledge will be necessary).
* Zero2D will pave the way for a truly competitive smash fighter. By having absolute control over all aspects of the game, true balance can be attained! (Of course, people can also make insanely broken characters for their own leisure.)
* Zero2D will offer superior online play. LAN play will also be an option. (Screw you, Blizzard!)
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Basically, Mugen with a death pit around the area? Or am I gravely misunderstanding?
LOL! Basically, yes. Obviously, health bars would be replaced with % damage. Characters would be given double jumps. There'd be a slew of engine changes.
 

Shadic

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Hrm.. I like the concept.
I'm not sure of how talents you are yourself, but judging from what I can gleam from a basic look at you, I'm fairly sure you're talented enough to kick this into motion.

I'm assuming this is mostly for trying to find some people that have enough talent to join your project at the time being, and that you're not really looking for random opinions of people? If so, you should probably state that, just to cut the amount of clueless posts that are sure to pop up.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I'm hugely NOT a fan of MUGEN. Besides, who is programming it?
I will be starting it. I am a professional developer; I know I can at least get the ball rolling. I have a couple other support coders already on standby. :) However, I am making the project open source because I know people who are smarter than me will be able to assist that way.

I'm not a big fan of MUGEN myself, but I'm just curious: why don't you like it? I'm just interested in making a smash rendition of it. I hate SF-style combat. I love smash combat (free to roam, platforming, etc.).
Hrm.. I like the concept.
I'm not sure of how talents you are yourself, but judging from what I can gleam from a basic look at you, I'm fairly sure you're talented enough to kick this into motion.

I'm assuming this is mostly for trying to find some people that have enough talent to join your project at the time being, and that you're not really looking for random opinions of people? If so, you should probably state that, just to cut the amount of clueless posts that are sure to pop up.
This is an open ended thread. That includes people posting to say, "I think this project should just die right now." If someone who can code wants to assist, great. If someone wants to just cheer from the sidelines, great. When the time is right, I'll be getting a site elsewhere to host the project and manage it. I am here probing the reaction of the general smash community since this would be the most important audience.
 

FrozenHobo

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i'm not exactly a high end programmer but i would be curious in seeing the source code you come up with. i'm currently working with C# so some stuff won't translate, but it would still be interesting to see how professional programers would implement certain ideas.

edit: this was the final project my team worked on last year: http://uploading.com/files/UWH2TRAN/FinalProject1.zip.html

you'll need xna studios/C# to run it (ran out of time to make it an excitable). currently supports 360 controls and keyboards.

i did all the artwork :p
 

Shadic

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Well, in that case.. I'd probably play it.

I sure hope this has joystick support.. A Smash game cannot be played if it only has D-pad support.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Well, in that case.. I'd probably play it.

I sure hope this has joystick support.. A Smash game cannot be played if it only has D-pad support.
Oh of course. One of my primary goals will be ensuring that my Logitech gamepad is fully functional. This will not be a dumbed down smash experience! :p
 

bleyva

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i am intrigued.....tell me, will there be Mr. Saturns, smashballs and such?

how bout tripping?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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i am intrigued.....tell me, will there be Mr. Saturns, smashballs and such?
Items... are not on the priority list right now. XD

But it's not a dead hope. I'm sure custom items could be added at a future point in development.
how bout tripping?
Yup. Lots of tripping. In fact, I plan on adding random coughing, passing out, laughing, etc. Anything I can do to make the game SO MUCH FUN!
 

Wavedash Master

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I'd suggest you start making a list on who's doing what. This way, people know what areas need help and support in.

I very much support for what you are doing and I plan to give ideas for features that can be implemented into the PHOENIX. I believe this will turn out into a good replica of a quality smash game. Hope for the best of luck.
 

Knightcrawler

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Well, since you wanna know, I'll gripe about MUGEN (these are not complaints against you or your game, just MUGEN):

1) Very unbalanced. Almost every character was created by 15-year olds to one-up all other characters.
2) Illegal. The game itself is perfectly legal, but 99.9% of the art and music are ripped from other games.
3) Art mish-mash. Sure, Smash has characters with differing art styles, but they're created thoughtfully so they at least look like they all belong in Smash. With MUGEN, you have characters of vastly different pixel-to-height ratios, art styles, palettes, etc.. They look out of place next to each other, and not in a good way.
4) Poor production values. Yup. Most of this comes from unprofessional ripping, or stupid stuff like people recording game music for the stages with their cell phones, but the engine also makes it seem as if... the characters and stages and effects are all disjointed somehow.
5) Lack of community cohesion. There are a thousand different mods for MUGEN and people mostly play whatever they like best (or what makes them feel coolest, more likely). If you were to make a Smash Bros. clone, I'd say to have options independently adjustable, but there can be a few groups of options together that are commonly used.
6) Stupid ideas. Tons of stupid character/stage/music ideas make it to mods. Funny for a few seconds, a waste of time/space/consideration afterward.


But about your game, I'd also like to say I'm not sure how many fans you'll pull into the game. Even if you make a character reminiscent of Mario or Link or whatever, if it's not Link it won't have the same appeal with me. Part of the reason I play Smash is yes, because of the video game all-star status. If you do include them in a Smash-like game, you might be in for a C&D; if you use the original models, I'd say it's likely. Also, I DO also like some of the less competitive parts of Smash; people might not play a game as much if it doesn't have say, single-player modes. These elements make a good introduction for characters/stages/physics. Of course that's still won't be a priority, but it's something to think about because it draws in players who can become important to the tournament scene later.

Why not just use your skills to replace segments of Brawl's code with the Dynamic SD Card Loader until we can achieve the same ends? Sure it'll never be HD, but it'd probably be less work in the end, and there's the possibility that if done right, Nintendo and other companies might actually LIKE our mods. After all, they're coming up on less certain economic waters soon and they'll need to prove their commitment to their fans at that time. I mean come on, if we put out a Golden Sun character before the new DS game launches, it'll boost their sales. MegaMan might increase sales of Virtual Console MM games and MM9, giving Capcom more incentive to support Nintendo's consoles. After enough of that kind of stuff, they're bound to *support* our modding instead of getting mad at us.

...although I guess the last paragraph was a bit off-topic. If this is something you DO want to do, I wish you luck.

*Edited a bit because I tend to be a downer*
 

AltF4

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Hey all. I wanted to throw my hand into the pile and say that I'll be working on code for this project. Buzz asked me to help out yesterday, and I will oblige. So count me in.


Let me address some of your issues, KnightCrawler:

1) Very unbalanced. Almost every character was created by 15-year olds to one-up all other characters.
We can create a limited character creation system to help with balance. I sort of have this picture in my head about having X amount of "points" you can allocate to characters attributes. And you can only use up so many attributes before a character gets labeled as 'broken'.

In fact, you could make a cool tier system this way! We could have a point allocation system, then have different tier classifications depending on how many points you use. IE: 50-70 points = Low tier character 70- 90 points = middle tier character, etc... That way you can have a "low tier" match or whatever.

You could even have a really cool single player experience this way. You would start out with a low tier, and gradually get more points to add to your character as you level up by winning matches. Might be cool.

That is a system that may or may not create a balanced character creation system. In principle it should work (it's essentially just like WoW, Pokemon, or any other game with customizable characters) but the devil's in the details, you know?

2) Illegal. The game itself is perfectly legal, but 99.9% of the art and music are ripped from other games.
Everything we, the developers, create will be 100% Open Source and created by us (or using an Open Source library). None of it will infringe on any existing copyrights.

That said, the game will allow user generated content. But none of this content is ever stored by, approved by, or in any way affiliated with we the developers. So any C&D's or DMCA Takedowns will be promptly thrown away.

3) Art mish-mash. Sure, Smash has characters with differing art styles, but they're created thoughtfully so they at least look like they all belong in Smash. With MUGEN, you have characters of vastly different pixel-to-height ratios, art styles, palettes, etc.. They look out of place next to each other, and not in a good way.
4) Poor production values. Yup. Most of this comes from unprofessional ripping, or stupid stuff like people recording game music for the stages with their cell phones, but the engine also makes it seem as if... the characters and stages and effects are all disjointed somehow.
6) Stupid ideas. Tons of stupid character/stage/music ideas make it to mods. Funny for a few seconds, a waste of time/space/consideration afterward.
All of these are essentially the same. The problem here is with quality of user generated characters. That's not really problem, though! That's the whole point. For people to be able to make their own content. Some will be better than others. Not much we can do, except maybe have a list of "featured content" that we think is particularly cool.

5) Lack of community cohesion. There are a thousand different mods for MUGEN and people mostly play whatever they like best (or what makes them feel coolest, more likely). If you were to make a Smash Bros. clone, I'd say to have options independently adjustable, but there can be a few groups of options together that are commonly used.
This is the same with Smash today, though correct? The problem isn't so much as one with programming, but the community itself. Look at Brawl today. There are still bitter feuds about what settings to use! I think the idea is to make the default settings as good as possible, so that people tend to stick with those with little variation.





Okay, now on to some design issues. Buzz asked me to look at networking for online / LAN play. So let's talk about that. We have some decisions to make:

1) Synchronous vs Asynchronous.

This is a question about how to handle network latency. In general, there are two ways of handling it, synchronous gameplay and asynchronous gameplay. This might be best explained via example....

In Starcraft (or Brawl) every player in the game sees exactly the same thing. Players' world maps are synchronous. Network latency in this situation manifests itself as input delay. Kind of like playing on a laggy TV.

In games like Halo, however, the game is asynchronous. There is one player who is host. That player has the "true" world, while every other player has their own inaccurate versions of that game world. Network latency in this situation manifests itself as jumpy character movement, or inconsistent game worlds. (IE: Attacks "going right through" your opponent but missing)

2) Centralized vs Decentralized

I'm pretty sure we're going to go for a Client - Server model. So that counts as centralized. But decentralized is possible in principle. It's worth mentioning.

3) TCP vs UDP

Do we want to use TCP or UDP for action transmissions? The tradeoff is as follows:

UDP is fast, and results in less network latency. But sometimes your packets will get lost... and there's nothing we can do about it. This is how Halo works. Sometimes your bullets just get lost, because they use UDP.

TCP is slower (it retransmits lost packets, and waits for replies and acknowledges) so you'll get an increased network latency. But there will be no lost actions.


Other design assumptions:

I figure we'll use a 1 packet = 1 action architecture. The exact protocol I can design.
 

Sukai

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Sprites.
That's all me, I can do sprite work, but I'll need to know how to apply them to the Mugen-esque Engine.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I'd suggest you start making a list on who's doing what. This way, people know what areas need help and support in.

I very much support for what you are doing and I plan to give ideas for features that can be implemented into the PHOENIX. I believe this will turn out into a good replica of a quality smash game. Hope for the best of luck.
Thank you for the support! It really does mean a lot that others are behind the concept. It lets me tell potential developers, "Hey, the game already has a fan base, and the game doesn't even exist yet!"
Well, since you wanna know, I'll gripe about MUGEN (these are not complaints against you or your game, just MUGEN):
I have complaints too. That's why I am eager to create PHOENIX!
1) Very unbalanced. Almost every character was created by 15-year olds to one-up all other characters.
2) Illegal. The game itself is perfectly legal, but 99.9% of the art and music are ripped from other games.
3) Art mish-mash. Sure, Smash has characters with differing art styles, but they're created thoughtfully so they at least look like they all belong in Smash. With MUGEN, you have characters of vastly different pixel-to-height ratios, art styles, palettes, etc.. They look out of place next to each other, and not in a good way.
4) Poor production values. Yup. Most of this comes from unprofessional ripping, or stupid stuff like people recording game music for the stages with their cell phones, but the engine also makes it seem as if... the characters and stages and effects are all disjointed somehow.
5) Lack of community cohesion. There are a thousand different mods for MUGEN and people mostly play whatever they like best (or what makes them feel coolest, more likely). If you were to make a Smash Bros. clone, I'd say to have options independently adjustable, but there can be a few groups of options together that are commonly used.
6) Stupid ideas. Tons of stupid character/stage/music ideas make it to mods. Funny for a few seconds, a waste of time/space/consideration afterward.
1) Yeah, like you said, people kinda went crazy with MUGEN. There was no rhyme or reason to many of the character creations. However, unlike MUGEN, I plan on forming an official balance committee that will actively review and approve characters. Granted, that won't stop people from making incredibly broken characters, but that's part of the fun. One of my favorite MUGEN characters is the Metal Slug Killer Whale. ^_^

2) PHOENIX will be completely legal. PHOENIX-approved characters will be completely legal. Heck, if the project takes off, I'll approach Nintendo about licensing official characters (I can dream), but as AltF4 pointed out, PHOENIX itself will be immune to legal assaults.

3) Again, this is another fundamental flaw in MUGEN's organization. It will still be a problem in PHOENIX, but thanks to the approval process, character designers will aspire to adhere to a standard instead of going crazy with illogical proportions/sizes.

4) See #3. We'll work to address this.

5) Yup.

6) Good ideas hide amongst bad ideas. We'll make it work. ;)


But about your game, I'd also like to say I'm not sure how many fans you'll pull into the game. Even if you make a character reminiscent of Mario or Link or whatever, if it's not Link it won't have the same appeal with me. Part of the reason I play Smash is yes, because of the video game all-star status. If you do include them in a Smash-like game, you might be in for a C&D; if you use the original models, I'd say it's likely. Also, I DO also like some of the less competitive parts of Smash; people might not play a game as much if it doesn't have say, single-player modes. These elements make a good introduction for characters/stages/physics. Of course that's still won't be a priority, but it's something to think about because it draws in players who can become important to the tournament scene later.
In due time. Don't look too far ahead just yet. As for the legal issues, see #2 above. PHOENIX, like any project, will not please everyone.
Why not just use your skills to replace segments of Brawl's code with the Dynamic SD Card Loader until we can achieve the same ends? Sure it'll never be HD, but it'd probably be less work in the end, and there's the possibility that if done right, Nintendo and other companies might actually LIKE our mods. After all, they're coming up on less certain economic waters soon and they'll need to prove their commitment to their fans at that time. I mean come on, if we put out a Golden Sun character before the new DS game launches, it'll boost their sales. MegaMan might increase sales of Virtual Console MM games and MM9, giving Capcom more incentive to support Nintendo's consoles. After enough of that kind of stuff, they're bound to *support* our modding instead of getting mad at us.
First off, no. I have zero interest in shredding Brawl up further. I want to make something from scratch, not tear up someone else's product. Plus, I disagree with the notion that Nintendo could ever like the various Brawl mods going on. Nintendo is extremely aggressive in combating Wii hacks/mods. No one at the corporate level understands fan expression. It's all just copyright infringement to them.

Sprites.
That's all me, I can do sprite work, but I'll need to know how to apply them to the Mugen-esque Engine.
When we have a standard ready, we will let you know! I promise it won't be too difficult for sprite-workers to create characters.
 

Shadic

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We can create a limited character creation system to help with balance. I sort of have this picture in my head about having X amount of "points" you can allocate to characters attributes. And you can only use up so many attributes before a character gets labeled as 'broken'.

In fact, you could make a cool tier system this way! We could have a point allocation system, then have different tier classifications depending on how many points you use. IE: 50-70 points = Low tier character 70- 90 points = middle tier character, etc... That way you can have a "low tier" match or whatever.
The problem is, that isn't how tiers really work in Smash. I mean, it works for a basic idea of balance in its simplest form (That's what Nintendo does on some level, I'm sure,) but it fails to incorporate what exactly makes a character good.
I mean, I could make one move that barely popped up a character into the air (think Sheik's ftilt), but had a large disjointed hitbox, and was quick. The only other move I'd need would be one or two KO moves, and perhaps a standard projectile. I'd be saving a crapton of points, but the three or four moves that I'd have would be enough to break a character.
That is a system that may or may not create a balanced character creation system. In principle it should work (it's essentially just like WoW, Pokemon, or any other game with customizable characters) but the devil's in the details, you know?
Yeah, bingo.

Another question I'd have is, how would character generation work, exactly? We'd have to figure out a customizable system for designing hitboxes every frame, as well as making some sort of easy system for creating characters.
You could even have a really cool single player experience this way. You would start out with a low tier, and gradually get more points to add to your character as you level up by winning matches. Might be cool.
That would be cool. It'd be like the Subspace sticker system, although less crappy. I'd look at the Sonic Battle (GBA) system. The main character is a robot that learns moves from observing other characters, and learns one move every fight he has with another character. And it's an RPG-based system to get more points, to be able to equip moves.. It's pretty awesome.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Be gentle. AltF4 is just brainstormin' here. ;)

Yeah, we can come up unique systems to create a very distinct fighter.

As for the character creation, I'm hovering around this idea: you have a folder called FighterX (or whatever his/her/its name is). In that folder is a huge collection of PNG images (all the frames of animation), a big list of OGG files (sounds), and a data file (possibly an INI or XML file). That data file defines all the behaviors of that character. It'd mostly be a big list of numbers. It would define when to use which animations. It would define hitboxes during certain moves (X-Y coordinates relative to the player's current position, etc.). The details are still fuzzy at this point; I'll probably come up with a mock example during my next class where I never pay attention.
 

Shadic

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Alright, cool. I didn't mean to be too harsh, just had to show how it could be abused pretty badly. :p

The next thing I'm thinking about, is that you're going to want to be able to run some custom code in game. Making the game work for the standard fighter (Mario, Link, etc.) is cool, but some characters in Smash completely buck the standard move trend. Ness's Up-B is a prime example, and I don't think you want to have every move possibility ever coded into the game already.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Alright, cool. I didn't mean to be too harsh, just had to show how it could be abused pretty badly. :p
It's OK to point out the idea's flaws (as they are fairly apparent). I just recommend building on it and/or fixing it.
The next thing I'm thinking about, is that you're going to want to be able to run some custom code in game. Making the game work for the standard fighter (Mario, Link, etc.) is cool, but some characters in Smash completely buck the standard move trend. Ness's Up-B is a prime example, and I don't think you want to have every move possibility ever coded into the game already.
Well, I already have the idea for character "sub-entities" (i.e. projectiles). It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to grant control over that entity temporarily (in this case, Ness' PK Thunder).

I'll have to take a peek into MUGEN character files to see how that was done. ^_^;;
 

GameSystem

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If you ever lack ideas for new characters, just take everything from the SSB4 discussion thread. They already have movesets and stuff planned out.
that thread now has a purpose
 

polyopulis

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If you ever lack ideas for new characters, just take everything from the SSB4 discussion thread. They already have movesets and stuff planned out.
that thread now has a purpose
or the make your move thread(s)

on the idea of points, you could perhaps put in a system that accounts for comboability (more knockback doesn't necessarily mean more points, more like an inverse bell curve so medium knockback moves cost the least) and a system that makes more moves cheaper than a few really strong ones (saves points or something)

I am liking this project and I will be keeping an eye on it, sounds cool.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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If you ever lack ideas for new characters, just take everything from the SSB4 discussion thread. They already have movesets and stuff planned out.
that thread now has a purpose
LOL! Most definitely! I never thought of it that way... Granted, if I do my job correctly, the community will do it on its own. There is no way I am coding a monstrous game engine and designing 10,000 characters for it.

My biggest barrier will be in learning how to do Makefiles correctly.
 

polyopulis

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PHOENIX = rebirth of the smash series

This has been a long time coming. I have always wanted to make my own PC game fighter. I feel that now is the time to begin seriously forming a design specification. Here are the important facts surrounding this idea:

* "Project PHOENIX" is a code name. The actual title will be unveiled as the project matures.
* PHOENIX will be built in the spirit of MUGEN. It will operate as a generic engine and allow the community to add characters and stages freely.
* PHOENIX will be written in C++ for optimal performance and guaranteed support for the big three (Windows, Macintosh, and GNU/Linux).
* PHOENIX will be a 2D fighter using sprites. This is to ensure that anyone can contribute to the fighter/stage rosters.
* PHOENIX will be open source. Programmers can contribute to the engine, while the rest of the community will help form characters and stages (no programming knowledge will be necessary).
* PHOENIX will pave the way for a truly competitive smash fighter. By having absolute control over all aspects of the game, true balance can be attained! (Of course, people can also make insanely broken characters for their own leisure.)
* PHOENIX will offer superior online play. LAN play will also be an option. (Screw you, Blizzard!)

In the meantime, what needs to happen is that everyone needs to rally together to form standards for character development. For instance, sprite sheets will most likely be PNG format, and sound will likely be OGG format. PNG and OGG are patent-free formats that are well supported by modern game libraries. From there, we will need to work together on how things like hitboxes are determined. We need a list of moves that every character needs to be capable of doing. Stuff like that.

Offer up your ideas/support! Ask questions! I will form assignments/tasks based on those willing to work on this.
PHOENIX? why the change in codename?
oh, that reminds me, please name it something unique (i know this is a codename but...) so i can google it or youtube it. I had problems finding an album by the name dark phoenix because of xmen and the game Love is really hard to find.
 

Kris121

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Wow. This looks good so far... Will this have a look and feel similar to Super Smash Flash or will it be more Smash accurate? I cant really do anything but this is something I've Wanted to do my whole life! ( Make a video game) So I will watch this carefully. Good Luck! And seriously Make your Move is a great source of movesets lol (Shameless MYM advertisement!)
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I would like to make many stages for you, but I don't have much experience in this field. I'm currenty applying to school for computer science and compuer programming. If there is something I need to know about making stages for this soon to be engine, please let me know.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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PHOENIX? why the change in codename?
oh, that reminds me, please name it something unique (i know this is a codename but...) so i can google it or youtube it. I had problems finding an album by the name dark phoenix because of xmen and the game Love is really hard to find.
It's VERY temporary. Like I said, this is just a temp name until we come up with a truly unique title. Don't expect to have to search for Phoenix once we get rollin'. We changed the name because it was brought to my attention that KOTH was an infamous member in these parts... reputation issues, yeah...
Wow. This looks good so far... Will this have a look and feel similar to Super Smash Flash or will it be more Smash accurate? I cant really do anything but this is something I've Wanted to do my whole life! ( Make a video game) So I will watch this carefully. Good Luck! And seriously Make your Move is a great source of movesets lol (Shameless MYM advertisement!)
I suspect it will be more smash accurate. No offense to the Flash-based smash games, but none of them really capture the smash physics at all. They are just really good at mimicking the graphics/sound.
I would like to make many stages for you, but I don't have much experience in this field. I'm currenty applying to school for computer science and compuer programming. If there is something I need to know about making stages for this soon to be engine, please let me know.
You won't need to know much programming (if any) if you just want to contribute content (characters, stages, etc.). Part of the goal with this project is to mimic MUGEN in that anyone can create content and plug it into the game without much hassle. We just have to hold off for now until we can determine what that standard is exactly.
 

n88

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If you ever lack ideas for new characters, just take everything from the SSB4 discussion thread. They already have movesets and stuff planned out.
that thread now has a purpose

The purpose of that thread was to prevent vast multitudes of threads, each about a single character's viability as a fighter.


Sounds like a great idea, but so did MUGEN (that's probably been said before)

I don't think I can help with this, really. Instead, I bring smillies to lend you support.:love::bigthumbu
 

DarkDragoon

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Okay, now on to some design issues. Buzz asked me to look at networking for online / LAN play. So let's talk about that. We have some decisions to make:

1) Synchronous vs Asynchronous.

This is a question about how to handle network latency. In general, there are two ways of handling it, synchronous gameplay and asynchronous gameplay. This might be best explained via example....

In Starcraft (or Brawl) every player in the game sees exactly the same thing. Players' world maps are synchronous. Network latency in this situation manifests itself as input delay. Kind of like playing on a laggy TV.

In games like Halo, however, the game is asynchronous. There is one player who is host. That player has the "true" world, while every other player has their own inaccurate versions of that game world. Network latency in this situation manifests itself as jumpy character movement, or inconsistent game worlds. (IE: Attacks "going right through" your opponent but missing)

2) Centralized vs Decentralized

I'm pretty sure we're going to go for a Client - Server model. So that counts as centralized. But decentralized is possible in principle. It's worth mentioning.

3) TCP vs UDP

Do we want to use TCP or UDP for action transmissions? The tradeoff is as follows:

UDP is fast, and results in less network latency. But sometimes your packets will get lost... and there's nothing we can do about it. This is how Halo works. Sometimes your bullets just get lost, because they use UDP.

TCP is slower (it retransmits lost packets, and waits for replies and acknowledges) so you'll get an increased network latency. But there will be no lost actions.


Other design assumptions:

I figure we'll use a 1 packet = 1 action architecture. The exact protocol I can design.
Okay! This might end up being long winded and hard to understand, but bear with me!

As I've mentioned to Buzz, we're dealing with a fighting game, not Halo. Halo sends hundred upon hundreds of the same packets over and over, so when some are lost, no one but the extremely anal people notice it.

As such, making the fights Synchronous/Centralized/TCP would be the best configuration.

With this being a fighting game, a single action could decide the entire outcome of a match[if we have 0-death combos, anyways], and if you use UDP, its basically like adding tripping...a random chance to have your action, any action, not be registered and you may or may not be subsequently punished for it.

Of course the chances of this happening are decreased with better latency/ping/bandwidth/whathaveyou. But you can't keep these things static, most of the time, so lost packets are bound to cause problems, which will eventually lead to frustrating game play.

TCP will slow it down a bit, but as long as everyone has a decent amount of bandwidth available to them, the client-server connection with TCP won't be a big hindrance on gameplay.

Optimize! Optimize! Optimize!

And thats all I got for now. All these distractions probably made me forget what else I was going to say.

-DD
 
D

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wow this actually sounds great.

if you ever need help on how brawl implemented some mechanics, send me a message.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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Pics or it didn't happen :p! Can we please get some screens?
Did you even bother to read the last 2 pages?

It's just an idea right now, nothing is started, and this whole thread is to find people who can help with the project and for people to give ideas/give support.

Reading is your friend.

This sounds like a brilliant idea, I'm also glad you'll be supporting mac (unlike every other game maker on the web >.>) I really want to see this happen, unfortunately, I can't help in any way right now. But you have my support!
 

Demacrez

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This sounds very similar to Card Sagas Wars. But of course this is SF style with nearly every game character around. It's been around for years and yet no demo has been released. It's still in development and showing progress every step of the way.

You could probably try and doing the same like these guys. You could get people to submit their characters, designs, and stats while a main artist (or artists with similar art styles) create the pixel designs.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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This sounds very similar to Card Sagas Wars. But of course this is SF style with nearly every game character around. It's been around for years and yet no demo has been released. It's still in development and showing progress every step of the way.

You could probably try and doing the same like these guys. You could get people to submit their characters, designs, and stats while a main artist (or artists with similar art styles) create the pixel designs.
That game is more Capcom Vs. than Street Fighter.

But yea, I'm pretty sure what they're going for here, except smash gameplay and the ability to balance each character with updates or something.(like starcraft)
 

DarkDragoon

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From what Buzz told me that Card thingy is somewhat of an inspiration to make this.

>_> and they have very pretty graphics. I've already requested a particle engine be put into the graphic engine, and we can make pretty BlazBlue-Like attacks!

-DD
 

SmashChu

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It would be cool, but I will question for how long. It didn't take long for Mugan to be garbage.
 

cAm8ooo

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I have a question. Is this limited to Nintendo characters and stages or just anything?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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It would be cool, but I will question for how long. It didn't take long for Mugan to be garbage.
MUGEN lacked any real guidance. No one (to my knowledge) made any effort to organize a real community of "good" characters/stages.
I have a question. Is this limited to Nintendo characters and stages or just anything?
Anything.
 
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