SMD: Zero Suit Samus (Snake Matchup Discussion)

SuSa · Jul 19, 2009

Don't tell me this took place as well.

Discuss.

Sukai · Jul 20, 2009

ZSS is an aerial fighter. Not Snake's best kind of match up. His grenades do well to keep her at bay and sneak in a hit or two, generally, Snake is better off waiting for her, if he tries to get in, he'll have to do it, well supplied with a cooked grenade or a mortar slide. If Snake can get it and not get down smashed, he can bang her up something good.
ZSS also has pretty bad vertical knockback resistance so up tilt away at your own risk.
Startup items can always be a hassle, because she ~~does~~ can use them so well, with glide tossing at her side.

If she get's Snake in the air, he's gonna have a hard time getting down.
Generally, Snake gotta play it careful, and maintain control, because ZSS isn't exactly a cake walk.
Even.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jul 20, 2009

Sadly, it did take place SuSa. You even said you didn't have that much MU experience. Besides, I think we found out it was 60-40 for ZSS. The biggest thing is that she can combo Snake just too well once he is in the air. The saving factor is that we last forever, she doesn't. But where have we heard this before <_<

Anyway, ZSS will never directly approach Snake. ZSS will keep Snake at bay with spacing using the powerwhip (SideB and the B button). This kind of spacing is not something that Snake can easily get around. The spacing with SHs and charging of the B button make it so that ZSS is always just out of range of his attacks safely. But close enough that we cannot really do much. Trying to take grenades out that close will result in the grenade exploding because of the powerwhip. Once ZSS actually hits Snake she has all sorts of combos to use on us.

Just has she can keep us on the run, we can too.

nevershootme · Jul 20, 2009

the most important rule....

-if you get grabbed at 0%... it's an automatic chain grab to 50-60%

Sinz · Jul 23, 2009

With ZSS's pieces just auto throw them back then follow up with nades. If she starts rushing in with over b, then shield run and ftilt. If she keeps baiting with laser, just throw the nades at the laser to blow them up :D. Always, ALWAYS grab the ledge.

misterpimp5757 · Jul 24, 2009

lets not forget that Zamus has a dsmash to down b spike if she paralyzes snake offstage. if u guys dont know there is dazwa and nickriddle who ***** snakes.

nickriddle ***** hrnuts snake and his snake is one of the top in FL...and ive never seen dazwa lose a set to a snake.

i say if the Zamus doesnt know wat he/she is doing then its a 60-40 for snake but other than that a good zamus would make it a 60-40 or even a 70-30.

mountain_tiger · Jul 24, 2009

70-30 for ZSS seems a bit extreme. 60-40 sounds about right. It's not unwinnable for Snake, but she can get around his grenades if need be, she can use her armor pieces to great effect (grabbing the armor pieces from a good ZSS is not easy). She has lots of ways to get Snake in the air, and from there she can juggle you to hell and bakc with Uair. Fortunately, you can live **** near forever, whereas you can kill her at around 110% with ease.

Eternal Yoshi · Jul 24, 2009

Umm...... the agreed ratio was 55:45 Snake.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 24, 2009

@mountain_tiger:

Snake can kill ZSS early but probably won't. He'll have to rely on tilts and explosives to deal damage so his only effective kill move will be utilt... utilt is very good but she can avoid it very well and should live until at least 130% unless something weird happens, like Snake catching her in a nair or something weird. :D

Snake wins in two very important categories here, weight and shield pressure. Whenever ZSS is forced to shield, she gets owned to pieces. At high percentages, we can die very early if we're not careful (see above). These are huge problems for us and not to be underestimated.

However, in just about every other category ZSS wins. She has the speed, range. She's in an advantageous position in the neutral position. Her biggest strengths (juggling, the air) are Snake's biggest weaknesses. While she can't consistently gimp him, she can deal some serious damage to him while he's recovering. The chaingrab isn't a big deal (60% on someone who lives until 200%, lol) but it definitely helps and it puts him offstage.

You could definitely argue that this match-up is even and you'd have a valid point, because jesus christ snake hurts. We'll die so early if we make one mistake. On the other hand, the best ZSS mains pretty consistently beat the Snake players in their areas. The results IMO speak pretty loudly for 5.5:4.5 ZSS at the least, 6:4 at worst. Also, very stage dependent, just throwing that out there.

noradseven · Jul 24, 2009

Sinz said:
With ZSS's pieces just auto throw them back then follow up with nades. If she starts rushing in with over b, then shield run and ftilt. If she keeps baiting with laser, just throw the nades at the laser to blow them up :D. Always, ALWAYS grab the ledge.

Have u played a ZSS bud, I mean I think the match is close to even(leaning one way or another) for a lot of reasons that im not going to go into detail now, but seriously.

*Throwing the pieces (we z-drop and bounce them far more because its more effective)
*RUSHING with over B(let alone using it all the time)
*laser hahahahaha don't make me laugh that move is to be used on rare occasions,snake is one of the match's where we actually can use it a decent bit though so maybe thats a bit legit.

*Grab the edge against ZSS, I mean I don't know what to say there we have a crazy good anti edge camp game but you also get owned recoverying high, its in fact one of the things keeping this from being in snakes favor a ton.

How it rolls is we kinda own snake but he is heavy we are light, do the math, and it comes up p. close.

Panix · Jul 25, 2009

Don't know what you guys are talking about, I've never really had trouble with ZSS because camping just works so well. it's either 5:5 or 45:55 zss she has a small adv but nothing that camping early can't take.

misterpimp5757 · Jul 25, 2009

apparently youve never seen a good Zamus.

noradseven · Jul 26, 2009

Snake camping isn't our problem trust me, nade spamming a ZSS isn't going to work as well as it does against most ppl, what gets us is your **** dash attack and u-tilt, and that you weight 1 million tons. ZSS should win this match like 6:4(maybe more) but its a very uphill battle because we have to hit you so many more times than you hit us, one silly mistake/trip(lol) could mean the end of a stock early.

nevershootme · Jul 27, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQvHTGNId7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_tqy8_qNI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kaq_KzOAxSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6LzMauj-U4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wzOQF77cAQ

All matches in order from top to bottom (1-5)

watch and learn

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 27, 2009

While maybe a little old now, here are two videos of Dazwa vs. Fatal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CyYE4a5V8g

Panix · Jul 27, 2009

lol....camping zss works perfectly, i've played plenty of zss's and i would say they are a bad match-up.
But zss is pretty easy to read.

When your this far

<------------------->
camp

when your this far

<-------->
from 0-50 wait for a grab and spot dodge
from 50+ wait for the side b and powershield

when your this far

<-->
Ftilt and utilt and grab.

Thats how I see that match up.

stay off of platforms, because the zss will u air through it.
laser-Grab zss favorite follow up.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 27, 2009

If you're camping ZSS with nades they are playing wrong, buddy. Nade camping is the least of their worries.

SuSa · Jul 27, 2009

According to those matches it would only be slightly in Zamus's favor.

I also want to know why neither Snake really knew how to handle side-B... <_<;

nevershootme · Jul 27, 2009

SuSa said:
According to those matches it would only be slightly in Zamus's favor.

I also want to know why neither Snake really knew how to handle side-B... <_<;

Walk, don't run unless u know when his sheild activates when dashing.

Also. Know when side b is at the deadzone where u don't take damage and its a free hit

xLeafybug =D · Jul 27, 2009

I'm not too knowledgeable on this match-up, as there is like one ZSS main in my area. However, I have noticed a couple of things about this MU, please correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Mortar Sliding leads to eating a side-b.
2) ZSS will own you on Platforms
3) Nade camping is a bad idea.
4) Side-B ***** Snake. Period.

SuSa · Jul 27, 2009

Side-B only ***** Snake if you don't know how to deal with it.

Your first 3 points are somewhat correct.

Nade camping works, but you have to be mobile and smart. Zamus is fast, don't be pulling a grenade if you know she can run up to you in that time...

Bizkit047 · Jul 28, 2009

I'm a bad example because Dazwa is the first ZSS main I've played offline, but here's my set with him where he kinda ***** me hard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YA0H98ktU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PC3C2eQoA

It's a tough matchup, but I'd say it's 50-50 or 55-45 ZSS at the most. ZSS can combo Snake in the air really well with Uairs and reading air dodges though. Also watch out for how far ZSS is willing to chase you off stage during your Up B. And of course, space away from the predictable Side B's always. Don't mortar slide into them.

Punishing ZSS is tough, her Dsmash and Side B are pretty lagless. Most ZSS may go into a utilt if you're up close waiting for a dsmash or Side B to finish. If so, predict it and punish. Power shield Side B for a dash attack and watch the nades. If you're in Side B range, don't pull out a nade. For armor, if you can't handle them throw them off stage the second you get them. If you can, keep them on stage. And be very careful of platform stages. Not only can ZSS Uair through them easily, but Dsmash if you're below one will stun you for a free combo. So I'd suggest staying away from platform stages if possible.

For kill moves, Bair, Uair, and Utilt work really well when fresh. So if one or two are stale, try the 3rd one to KO.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 28, 2009

According to those matches it would only be slightly in Zamus's favor.

I would agree, anywhere from 55 to 60, but no more than that.

noradseven · Jul 28, 2009

I personally don't feel side B ***** snake his dash attack is p. good against it, NOT MORTOR SLIDING, dash attack.

I really think the match is like 5.5:4.5, this is assuming both players really know there stuff, especially the ZSS.

Seriously don't try mortor sliding that much against ZSS its just bad, dash attack is far better in this match.

Part of the reason nade camping has problems is because like a few other character we have alot of item management exp and on top of that we are really fast, so not only can we punish on pull if we count the time the nade has been out, and you threw it a bit early, or were trying to set up for something it is a simple matter to grab glidetoss, d-tilt/u-tilt/d-smash/grab. Doesn't mean they can't be useful, but it will not work exactly like it does on everyone else.

AfroQT · Jul 28, 2009

This is easily in favor of snake lol.

Dash attack owns Side B, Side B is terrible.
Snake just has to stay mobile, never pinning himself up. You cant camp, but you can avoid ZSS very easily. She's extremely light, she dies quick. She has some nice edgeguards on snake but who does it.

I'd say this is 6:4 Snake or 55:45 snake, EASILY. There's no way ZSS beats Snake, the only advantage she has is a weak, hard to land chaingrab and some edgeguards that EVERY CHARACTER has as well. When snake hits her she feels it.

As well as ZSS not having a good camp game either, if you have a good grenade game, ZSS will think twice about attacking and twice again about camping. ZSS has no safe spot she can stay on the stage. Most people think ZSS is bad for snake because its wierd, but once you learn it its easy to avoid her FEW moves that set up for kills. For ZSS to set you up for a kill she must take a risk.

You must remember to be scared of the Side B, but dont always play defensive at the sight of it. Snake CAN bait ZSS into doing a Side B and UPTILTING HER FOR IT. If your staying mobile enough, its hard for ZSS to pinpoint exactly where to space a Side B, and she moves her hitbox far forward when she does, knowing when a ZSS does a bad Side B is very important to this matchup, as its easy to spot and punish immediately.

Even if no one agrees with me on this being in snakes favor, theres no way in hell ZSS beats Snake.

etecoon · Jul 28, 2009

In addition to just power shielding and punishing, I've found that I clank with ZSS' side B a lot and there's even a blind spot where you can clearly get hit by the animation but not get hit, I think her juggling game and 0-60 CG are the worst things, I don't think she does anything particularly nasty in terms of zoning or camping Snake. About even IMO, but I do need more experience on this matchup

DZhou · Jul 29, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
This is easily in favor of snake lol.

Dash attack owns Side B, Side B is terrible.
Snake just has to stay mobile, never pinning himself up. You cant camp, but you can avoid ZSS very easily. She's extremely light, she dies quick. She has some nice edgeguards on snake but who does it.

I'd say this is 6:4 Snake or 55:45 snake, EASILY. There's no way ZSS beats Snake, the only advantage she has is a weak, hard to land chaingrab and some edgeguards that EVERY CHARACTER has as well. When snake hits her she feels it.

As well as ZSS not having a good camp game either, if you have a good grenade game, ZSS will think twice about attacking and twice again about camping. ZSS has no safe spot she can stay on the stage. Most people think ZSS is bad for snake because its wierd, but once you learn it its easy to avoid her FEW moves that set up for kills. For ZSS to set you up for a kill she must take a risk.

You must remember to be scared of the Side B, but dont always play defensive at the sight of it. Snake CAN bait ZSS into doing a Side B and UPTILTING HER FOR IT. If your staying mobile enough, its hard for ZSS to pinpoint exactly where to space a Side B, and she moves her hitbox far forward when she does, knowing when a ZSS does a bad Side B is very important to this matchup, as its easy to spot and punish immediately.

Even if no one agrees with me on this being in snakes favor, theres no way in hell ZSS beats Snake.

i think this sums it up nicely. The matchup feels pretty easy as long as Snake doesn't run too much (ZSS dsmash).

Also, don't get cornered

Panix · Jul 31, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
This is easily in favor of snake lol.

Dash attack owns Side B, Side B is terrible.
Snake just has to stay mobile, never pinning himself up. You cant camp, but you can avoid ZSS very easily. She's extremely light, she dies quick. She has some nice edgeguards on snake but who does it.

I'd say this is 6:4 Snake or 55:45 snake, EASILY. There's no way ZSS beats Snake, the only advantage she has is a weak, hard to land chaingrab and some edgeguards that EVERY CHARACTER has as well. When snake hits her she feels it.

As well as ZSS not having a good camp game either, if you have a good grenade game, ZSS will think twice about attacking and twice again about camping. ZSS has no safe spot she can stay on the stage. Most people think ZSS is bad for snake because its wierd, but once you learn it its easy to avoid her FEW moves that set up for kills. For ZSS to set you up for a kill she must take a risk.

You must remember to be scared of the Side B, but dont always play defensive at the sight of it. Snake CAN bait ZSS into doing a Side B and UPTILTING HER FOR IT. If your staying mobile enough, its hard for ZSS to pinpoint exactly where to space a Side B, and she moves her hitbox far forward when she does, knowing when a ZSS does a bad Side B is very important to this matchup, as its easy to spot and punish immediately.

Even if no one agrees with me on this being in snakes favor, theres no way in hell ZSS beats Snake.

I use to think people played to little amount of snakes that they always thought that there character's had the adv.

(luigi's thought it was in there favor, fox's thought it was in there favor, Tink's the same, ZSS the same wolfs the same)

But now I relized is that they play to many scrubb snakes and beat them and they think it's in there favor.

Snake wouldn't be second best if 9 characters countered him. yah know?

I agree it to be 5:5 snake. I would never CP a ZSS, snake does perfect against ZSS.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 31, 2009

Snake wouldn't be second best if 9 characters countered him. yah know?

Afro's entitled to his opinion (although last I heard he pretty regularly loses to NickRiddle) but this has to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard.

55:45 ZSS wouldn't be a "counter" anyway, really, it would be a mostly even match-up where ZSS has a very slight upper-hand in some area, which describes the match-up pretty well.

Also I don't recall anyone but Snake mains saying ZSS would heavily use side-b in this match-up. No ZSS aims to hit with side-b anyway, it's just a way to force a reaction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw You can very clearly see in this video that ZSS owns Snakee offstage and in the air and has problems in close range (what else is new?). As a matter of fact, ZSS owns Snake in nearly every conceivable way except in terms of weight and close-range/shield pressure. Those are very important things of course which is why I think the match is anywhere from even-to-5.5 ZSS (or worse for Snake on various stages).

AfroQT · Aug 17, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
Afro's entitled to his opinion (although last I heard he pretty regularly loses to NickRiddle) but this has to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard.

55:45 ZSS wouldn't be a "counter" anyway, really, it would be a mostly even match-up where ZSS has a very slight upper-hand in some area, which describes the match-up pretty well.

Also I don't recall anyone but Snake mains saying ZSS would heavily use side-b in this match-up. No ZSS aims to hit with side-b anyway, it's just a way to force a reaction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw You can very clearly see in this video that ZSS owns Snakee offstage and in the air and has problems in close range (what else is new?). As a matter of fact, ZSS owns Snake in nearly every conceivable way except in terms of weight and close-range/shield pressure. Those are very important things of course which is why I think the match is anywhere from even-to-5.5 ZSS (or worse for Snake on various stages).

K talk about dumbest reasoning, blowing this up is so easy its ridiculous.
ZSS has NOTHING in terms of up close game, she cant grab making SHIELD a ridiculously broken defensive option vs her. Her grab is so slow i can dodge it on REACTION. She cant camp snake, and can do almost nothing to stop dash attack/mortarslide. She cant punish it unless Snake hits the end of the level, assuming she shields or dodges it. Her shield pressure only works if you have no idea what she is doing. Like i said knowing how to spot good and bad Side-B's is important. Just ask Nick Riddle (who i beat the last time 2 times i played him), any time he does a Side B spaced wrong, he gets punished by a Ftilt, Dashattack or Utilt. Zss's upclose game is so ridiculously bad its..im sorry but its laughable. All she has is...Jab (which you can punish on shield), and Uptilt which is fast and sets up for damage, but is ridiculously bad on shieldblock. 1 wrong uptilt and she dies. ZSS CANNOT do this back to you, no matter what move you throw at her. Essentially if you play a well spaced but aggressive game, ZSS has zero options to stop you. The ONLY thing she has going for her that is safe is Dsmash, which is good and fast, but not nearly enough to turn the matchup in her favor.

As for recovering, its hard to recover vs her but...who ISNT it hard to recover vs? Unlike MK or even d3 she wont kill you for being out there, but simply rehit you back off...if you recover high enough (or take enough hits) you'll be fine. In the video you linked, the first kill that Dazwa got was because Fatal failed to immediately jump and Up-B for increased Height, and more options for recovery.
(this is first stock btw)
You can see right after he gets hit off at 0:41, he Up-Airs (which im guessing shoulda been Bair), then falls for abit before attempting to jump and Up -B.

This my fellow snake mains is wrong. When fighting ZSS you must choose to either recover LOW or HIGH, recovering anywhere inbetween leaves you vulnerable to ZSS's Bair. Fatal could of escaped that situation,

As for saying that i lose toNick Riddle... Hes a good player, been playing since melee where he was also a great player. Even tho lately i've been beating him, trying to use him beating me TWICE (in total, of the 5 or 6 times we've played and i've won) as a reason why the matchup is 55:45 is ********.

Sinz · Aug 17, 2009

Afro, if I proposed to you. Would you marry me?

AfroQT · Aug 17, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
K talk about dumbest reasoning, blowing this up is so easy its ridiculous.
ZSS has NOTHING in terms of up close game, she cant grab making SHIELD a ridiculously broken defensive option vs her. Her grab is so slow i can dodge it on REACTION. She cant camp snake, and can do almost nothing to stop dash attack/mortarslide. She cant punish it unless Snake hits the end of the level, assuming she shields or dodges it. Her shield pressure only works if you have no idea what she is doing. Like i said knowing how to spot good and bad Side-B's is important. Just ask Nick Riddle (who i beat the last time 2 times i played him), any time he does a Side B spaced wrong, he gets punished by a Ftilt, Dashattack or Utilt. Zss's upclose game is so ridiculously bad its..im sorry but its laughable. All she has is...Jab (which you can punish on shield), and Uptilt which is fast and sets up for damage, but is ridiculously bad on shieldblock. 1 wrong uptilt and she dies. ZSS CANNOT do this back to you, no matter what move you throw at her. Essentially if you play a well spaced but aggressive game, ZSS has zero options to stop you. The ONLY thing she has going for her that is safe is Dsmash, which is good and fast, but not nearly enough to turn the matchup in her favor.

As for recovering, its hard to recover vs her but...who ISNT it hard to recover vs? Unlike MK or even d3 she wont kill you for being out there, but simply rehit you back off...if you recover high enough (or take enough hits) you'll be fine. In the video you linked, the first kill that Dazwa got was because Fatal failed to immediately jump and Up-B for increased Height, and more options for recovery.
(this is first stock btw)
You can see right after he gets hit off at 0:41, he Up-Airs (which im guessing shoulda been Bair), then falls for abit before attempting to jump and Up -B.

This my fellow snake mains is wrong. When fighting ZSS you must choose to either recover LOW or HIGH, recovering anywhere inbetween leaves you vulnerable to ZSS's Bair. Fatal could of escaped that situation,

As for saying that i lose toNick Riddle... Hes a good player, been playing since melee where he was also a great player. Even tho lately i've been beating him, trying to use him beating me TWICE (in total, of the 5 or 6 times we've played and i've won) as a reason why the matchup is 55:45 is ********.

Re-Up for Page 3.
And No sorry lol

Underload · Aug 17, 2009

Ahh denied

It's okay Sinz, you still got Tim.

SamuraiPanda · Aug 17, 2009

I know nothing of this matchup. Also, Afro is sexy. Thus, everything Afro says must be correct.

Q.E.D.

Toneh · Aug 18, 2009

afro for snakeboard president

So Fatal · Aug 18, 2009

those vidz r olddddddddddd

Snakeee · Aug 24, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
K talk about dumbest reasoning, blowing this up is so easy its ridiculous.
ZSS has NOTHING in terms of up close game, she cant grab making SHIELD a ridiculously broken defensive option vs her. Her grab is so slow i can dodge it on REACTION. She cant camp snake, and can do almost nothing to stop dash attack/mortarslide. She cant punish it unless Snake hits the end of the level, assuming she shields or dodges it. Her shield pressure only works if you have no idea what she is doing. Like i said knowing how to spot good and bad Side-B's is important. Just ask Nick Riddle (who i beat the last time 2 times i played him), any time he does a Side B spaced wrong, he gets punished by a Ftilt, Dashattack or Utilt. Zss's upclose game is so ridiculously bad its..im sorry but its laughable. All she has is...Jab (which you can punish on shield), and Uptilt which is fast and sets up for damage, but is ridiculously bad on shieldblock. 1 wrong uptilt and she dies. ZSS CANNOT do this back to you, no matter what move you throw at her. Essentially if you play a well spaced but aggressive game, ZSS has zero options to stop you. The ONLY thing she has going for her that is safe is Dsmash, which is good and fast, but not nearly enough to turn the matchup in her favor.

As for recovering, its hard to recover vs her but...who ISNT it hard to recover vs? Unlike MK or even d3 she wont kill you for being out there, but simply rehit you back off...if you recover high enough (or take enough hits) you'll be fine. In the video you linked, the first kill that Dazwa got was because Fatal failed to immediately jump and Up-B for increased Height, and more options for recovery.
(this is first stock btw)
You can see right after he gets hit off at 0:41, he Up-Airs (which im guessing shoulda been Bair), then falls for abit before attempting to jump and Up -B.

This my fellow snake mains is wrong. When fighting ZSS you must choose to either recover LOW or HIGH, recovering anywhere inbetween leaves you vulnerable to ZSS's Bair. Fatal could of escaped that situation,

As for saying that i lose toNick Riddle... Hes a good player, been playing since melee where he was also a great player. Even tho lately i've been beating him, trying to use him beating me TWICE (in total, of the 5 or 6 times we've played and i've won) as a reason why the matchup is 55:45 is ********.

Spacing Side B's, or the other "spacing" moves, D-smash and paralyzer are almost completely useless in nearly every match up. The only time I may try it against Snake are right when I expect a grenade pull. I gave up on trying to space with those in general a while ago, and the only spacer that is somewhat safe is b-air and even that can be risky. Oh, you're right her ground game is bad (well actually really good on a select few chars though), but you're actually wrong on the d-smash. If you think that it's effective, and get hit by it often, you're off on this match up. The only time it can be a good option is if Snake is landing, and ZSS is in front of him. You should usually be able to f-tilt her on reaction because of how slow it is starting up. If not, you can just powershield it, and punish afterwards.

Besides all that, yes Snake has a good advantage on the ground, but ZSS has amazing control in the air especially against him. Her juggle game in the air is even comparable to Metaknight (but he's obviously the superior offstage).
ZSS does gimp Snake, or will at least usually deal a ton of damage, while he is offstage.
Fatal "failing" to immediately jump and Up B makes me laugh actually because that option is by far the easiest for me to punish. I always f-air them the instant they press it. However, I can see why you guys do that because there really aren't better options there.

Whether or not you recover high or low, ZSS has great options for edgeguarding Snake. Even if he goes so high he is not visible on screen, ZSS can drag him down with an Up B. Heck, I even can get high enough to down B attack him from that height on occasion lol (I've KOed off the top of the stage with this, similar to metaknights Up airs to tornado).

If Snake goes low, ZSS can go for b-airs/f-airs, Side B while he Up B's, or even going for down B spikes are all effective. If he goes near the side of the stage, she can repeatedly b-air/f-air him into the stage, often even if he techs.

ZSS' aerials do beat Snake's well, and good spacing/timing are needed here.
Oh, and btw, the chaingrab which is a 0-60% combo against Snake, is really iffy to me at this point. Even if you have it down perfectly, the risk vs reward is hard to judge because a whiff will cause you to eat a strong f-tilt. The only time it's really safe and guaranteed is if she somehow gets him with a charged paralyzer, or d-smash.

Well all in all, I'd say the match up is 55/45 Snake right now.

AfroQT · Aug 24, 2009

I dont disagree on the edgeguarding, but going low or high is better then anything inbetween. Your removing the few options you have if you do that.

I agree with the 55/45. I just dont see ti being in ZSS's favor, she has to work so much harder for damage, and especially kills.

Panix · Aug 25, 2009

Finally somebody see's what I see. Thank you <2.

choknater · Aug 25, 2009

man i just popped in this thread to learn something, and i did. thanks snakeee and afro, reading things like this helps my strategic game in general

SMD: Zero Suit Samus (Snake Matchup Discussion)

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Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Master

The only true DR vet.

Smash Master

Lazy

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Obsessed

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