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Match up discussion week 31: Pokéman Trainer

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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You probably played one of the games in this series.

We all know gen1 rules best, that's why PT should be higher then Lucario, he's a floating magic dog for crying out loud.

I much prefer fire breathing magic salamanders.



Discuss!
 

Emperor Time

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Yup. I think this is an interesting MU.

Squirtle-Very good stringer/comboer. He can rack up damage very quickly and has gimps and chains. His mobility is also very good. I think the jab combo is very important considering how easy squirtle can get in your face. In my experience, most PTs like starting off as squirtle, so watch out. I actually think we lose here.

Ivy-Idk why people underestimate him. Yeah, he's easily gimped. So what? His Bair is a priority wall and he can rack up damage decently and kill quickly. We do have a lot going for us here, though. Cg and laser spam works quite nicely here.

Charziard-Sorta makes me wish I had Ike as a secondary. Heavy, powerful, great grab game, a lot of kill moves.... He's sure to cause you some trouble. What you want to watch out for here is his rock smash antics. He can do fthrow into rock smash(i think) and he can approach pretty easily with it. His dthrow has SICK knockback and can send you flying fairly quickly. What you can do here is laser spam the hell out of him or or get in his face with cg, nair, jab, etc. Just be careful...he's really good at punishing.

I think reflector is actually decent here >_>

60-40 Squirtle's way
60-40 Falco on Ivy
55-45(bad call,not too sure atm) Falco on Charziard

60-40 Falco overall?
 

Lord Chair

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Chaingrab to spike ruins all of them, Squirtle and Ivy are dead and Charoozord has limited recovery options.

Ivysaur:
Lasers stops Ivysaur from his usual space/camp game since it (obviously) ignores Ivy's bair and Razor Leaf, not to mention his ftilt. Ivysaur is screwed and will rarely if ever be used at all.

Squirtle:
Squirtle has his own stuff against Falco and is probably their best bet. If they can prevent getting spiked to death, the match-up (of Squirtle) is pretty much in their favor. Juggles (mainly though utilt) cause some ******** amount of damage, and he's very capable of gimping Falco. Still, lasers should take care of his fearsome upsmash, limiting Squirtle's already small pool of killing options.

Charoozord:
Has trouble with lasers. His aerial speed sucks which means he's limited to perfect shielding/spotdodging everything. He doesn't have anything specific on Falco expect for having a larger grab range. His grab game is mean overall, but Falco has the tools to escape it. Remember that Charoozord is more gimpable than he might appear to be.

edit:
40-60 Squirtle
70-30 Ivysaur
60-40 Charizard
 
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Intro
PT is split into 3 people: Squirtle, Charizard and Ivysaur. Squirtle's main traits are his damage racking abilities. He has relativly good mobility in the air, on the ground, and quick attacks. This makes for him being all up in his face. Charizard is the powerhouse of the group with decent range on attacks He has the ability to glide which helps on the horizontal recovery, but it's probably the slowest glide in the entire game. His UpB has super armor frames during the start-up. Ivysaur is believed by many to be the weakest in the group. Horrible aerials, tether recovery, and overall a bad character. Dispite these weaknesses he does have some comboing abilities and can kill.

The ability to fight as one unit when split into 3 is a boon, and a curse. If starting with squirtle, one can rack damage with him before switching characters who can kill more easily. The downside is that they have a fatigue system. The time limit for any of the pokemon is 2 minutes max. Everytime they perform an aerial, tilt, special or smash attack, they loses 1 second from that timer. Once they exceed this timer they will be fatigued and start doing less damage and knockback. The amount multiplier of this, I believe, is .7 of the original non-fatigued state. This is a considerable reduction in knockback, they are doing roughly 2/3s the amount of knockback they could be doing, including whatever stale moves they have. This can be corrected switching. But switching doesn't reset the timer entirely for the fatigued pokemon. For every second they spend in limbo, the timer is reset by 2 seconds.

With the fatigue system and forced switches on lost stocks means that you'll never face the same character for all 3 of your stocks. If you do, the one unit should be so fatigued that they won't ever be killing you.

Squirtle
IMO, this is Falco's hardest MU he will play against PT. Squirtles small size will make it hard to laser him, his attacks will combo well into each other that you'll be getting juggled a lot if you slip up. Utilt can lock falco in place into the mid 30s I believe. But our CG > spike or CG > tech chase can more than make up for that amount of damage we could take from Utilt chain. Plus, Squirtles air release is such that he cannot do anything till he lands on the stage. I'm unsure if Falco can abuse this, but it's something to take note of. Squirtles recovery is ok. He has a good 2nd jump and a good priority UpB, but it can be edgehogged. Squirtle has access to water gun which acts just like mario's fludd, so be careful to not do any predictable phantasms onto the stage when they have this charged. Squirtles SideB I believe is impervious to attacks, but it can be deflected with a strong hit and you can just grab him out of it.

In short, I would give the MU 55-45 Falco's Favor.

Ivysaur
This is probably the easiest MU for Falco to undertake. Ivysaur has limited options against us. His SideB can be reflected. His has the tether grab (forgettng the real name) which is punishable if it misses. Having a tether recovery makes it easy for us to edgehog him. His aerials are slow, with only Nair and Bair being useable. Nair should typically being use OoS I believe, and Bair in close range. Ivysaur just doesn't have any reliable approaches against Falco. And trying to kill falco should be difficult for him. He does have a number of combos that can rack damage up on Falco if your not aware of them. Grab > UpB is one such combo. Nair > bullet seed. Bullet Seed is rather difficult to DI and can rack up a ton of damage on Falco. CG > spike will work. But I believe that it can be meteor canceled with UpB and instantly grab the ledge.

65-35 Falco. Maybe 60-40.

Charizard
Charizard really reminds me too much of DK. His tilts are rather quick in execution and ending lag with large range. His grab range is large and smashes powerful. But he suffers from the same things that DK had and that was being a large target, limited approaches on us, and CG able. Charizards recovery is also bad. He has 2 midair jump and can cancel into a glide that is frankly extremely slow. His UpB has good veritcal height, super armor frames, but limited horizontal coverage. Charizard doesn't have many combos against us, but he does have a good edgeguarding game against us. Rock Blast and Flamethrower **** phantasm recovery. Flamethrower can pretty much forsake our recovery like bowser could, and rockblast if timed right can just kill us.

60-40 Falco.

Overall, I would say that the PT MU number is 60-40.
 

Lord Chair

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Ivysaur
Nair should typically being use OoS I believe, and Bair in close range.
Bair has sick range, there's little reason for Ivysaur to use it in close range unless she absolutely has to.

Ivysaur just doesn't have any reliable approaches against Falco. And trying to kill falco should be difficult for him. He does have a number of combos that can rack damage up on Falco if your not aware of them. Grab > UpB is one such combo. Nair > bullet seed. Bullet Seed is rather difficult to DI and can rack up a ton of damage on Falco.

None of Ivysaurs throws should 'combo' into Bullet Seed. Learn your DI and you're fine. Bullet Seed shouldn't do more than 20% damage on you, unless you got hit at the base of the attack, but then you deserve to get that much damage for not knowing what you were doing.

65-35 Falco. Maybe 60-40.

Charizard
Charizard really reminds me too much of DK. His tilts are rather quick in execution and ending lag with large range. His grab range is large and smashes powerful. But he suffers from the same things that DK had and that was being a large target, limited approaches on us, and CG able. Charizards recovery is also bad. He has 2 midair jump and can cancel into a glide that is frankly extremely slow. His UpB has good veritcal height, super armor frames, but limited horizontal coverage. Charizard doesn't have many combos against us, but he does have a good edgeguarding game against us. Rock Blast and Flamethrower **** phantasm recovery. Flamethrower can pretty much forsake our recovery like bowser could, and rockblast if timed right can just kill us.

It's Rock Smash, just so you know ;)
Just saying.
 
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I never said that the throws led into bullet seed.

I should probably should adjust a few comments in there. FF Nair > Bullet Seed. Unless the final hit of Nair is avoided. Dthrow > UpB at low percents. DI doesn't really effect it much at low percents. And I think it can be timed to either hit a falco in a jump, or after an airdodge. Either way, Dthrow > UpB does roughly 20 damage if the attacks are fresh and hits with the sweetspot of UpB.

And doing at LEAST 20% of damage to Falco is pretty bad. That's roughly 1/6 or 1/5 the percents before entering KO range of most smashes.
 

Lord Chair

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And doing at LEAST 20% of damage to Falco is pretty bad. That's roughly 1/6 or 1/5 the percents before entering KO range of most smashes.
Only fsmash, I'm sure we can agree on the fact that Ivy's dsmash and usmash are respectively extremely weak and nigh impossible to land.
 
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Only fsmash, I'm sure we can agree on the fact that Ivy's dsmash and usmash are respectively extremely weak and nigh impossible to land.
Pretty much xD Plus, whatever percents charizard can KO at. Being directly after Ivysaur in all in the switching line-up.
 

BleachigoZX

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All I know is that Ivy's Jab means "Back the **** up"
Squirtle is nimble so just throw our Bair.
Charizard is slower and big, pewpewpew. Don't let him get under you he is good at juggling.
 

Lord Chair

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All I know is that Ivy's Jab means "Back the **** up"
Squirtle is nimble so just throw our Bair.
Charizard is slower and big, pewpewpew. Don't let him get under you he is good at juggling.
That's so... uninformative. Ivy's jab sucks anyway, he has better options. Bairing the crap out of Squirtle will get you killed, and Charizard isn't a terribly good juggler, just a bit awkward.
 

Steeler

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lord chair's numbers are like spot-on (but his spelling of charizard is not), and overall it's 55-45 falco advantage imho.
 

Notra

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lol, the first match is just sad. but we all have matches were we sandbag from lack of interest. I also noticed kismet plays rly aggressive, i havent played a PT as good as reflex(teh best) but ive played pretty good ones. and camping seems to work, as usual.
 

Shaya

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Squirtle has a lot of **** on Falco, but he doesn't win.

Falco's ftilt outranges Squirtle, Falco shdl covers + lower angled ftilt + sh nair leaves Squirtle with little to no safe approach options. Falco has no qualms waiting forever to get the CG, Squirtle hasn't much leeway, as time ticks. Falco doesn't -need- the cg to spike (even though squirtle can't really recover from it... but SDI...) a grab before 30% will put Squirtle at 2/3rds or more towards kill percent.
Falco with a longer ranged and similar speed/high prio jab and good fox trot has Falco safely 'poking' a grounded Squirtle not approaching.

Squirtle has great combos on Falco, can gimp him, and has a good kill throw.

But I don't think a very smart/high level Falco is going to care much about what Squirtle is to him: a buffed melee Pichu (I'm sure you're all aware of the coolshiznitch Pichu had on the spacies in melee, right?).

Charizard has a better punishment game, one move that covers all the damage Squirtle can do with his combos if it sweetspots, outranges Falco, has an extremely fast run and great grab range. Just pew pew and tech chase Zard after the cg due to his crap rolls for like 80%+.

PT boards must hate me coming into every match up thread being like your **** gets ***** :(.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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I think that considering CG>Spike in a match is a thing of the past, it can be teched and we should assume maximum level of play.

So CG Spike should be diminished to a minor factor only possible on certain stages, not even our favorites.
 

Toby.

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You should realise that against squirtle falco doesn't care if he techs it. Squirtle is only a couple hits away from being at death percent after the chain grab anyway, and he lacks any safe approach options against falco.

Falco's ftilt does really, really well against squirtle here. It's a bit silly. He actually goes well against squirtle in the air as well. Shaya was right, so people should go read that again.

:)
 

TechnoMonster

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PT gets destroyed by Falco. No awesome mixups vs. tons of awesome mixups. No lasers vs. Lasers. Reflector > projectiles. OK recovery vs. crappy recovery. B-air vs. air oriented characters. Ivysaur vs. Chaingrab, -1 to stocks.
 

Notra

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PT gets destroyed by Falco. No awesome mixups vs. tons of awesome mixups. No lasers vs. Lasers. Reflector > projectiles. OK recovery vs. crappy recovery. B-air vs. air oriented characters. Ivysaur vs. Chaingrab, -1 to stocks.
wow, maybe u should know a match up before saying anything. at least charizard ivy and squirtles recovery starts immediatly(B-up recovery) lol they have mixups, and squirtles bair and ivys r broken too.
 

Shaya

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WHy would Falco EVER have an issue with Ivy's bair? Ever?

Pew pew silent laser that thing into a dacus that it can't really avoid if you've spaced yourself right because of Ivy's crap aerial mobility.

pew pew.
 

BleachigoZX

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Falco wins this hard, only Squirtle has a shot at taking stocks off a fresh Falco. Charizard is too too slow/big to get any work done, and Ivysuar is Ivysuar.
 

AvoiD

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PT gets destroyed by Falco. No awesome mixups vs. tons of awesome mixups. No lasers vs. Lasers. Reflector > projectiles. OK recovery vs. crappy recovery. B-air vs. air oriented characters. Ivysaur vs. Chaingrab, -1 to stocks.
wow, maybe u should know a match up before saying anything. at least charizard ivy and squirtles recovery starts immediatly(B-up recovery) lol they have mixups, and squirtles bair and ivys r broken too.
Notra, lol, I'm pretty sure he does know the matchup, all his opinions were legit.

No awesome mixups he said, they still have mixups, just not as flashy as Falco's, or that can rack damage quickly besides Squirtle's Uptilt, lulz. Squirtle and Charizard can be gimped pretty easy imo, and edgehogging/edgeguarding ***** them horribly.

Edgehog, to punish if the opponent lands on stage 2pro? Ivy's bair is good, but yeah, lasers and reflector shut down most of what Ivy can do. Squirtles bair is what might give Falco's trouble though.

imo, All of PT's recoveries are crappy, unless you use them smartly, which make them good. :) But that'd go for err single character in brawl as well, lol. He gots this.

And Charizard is slow, but his tilts, specials and aerials are pretty quick. It's just basically staying away, getting the grab if you can, and camping.
 

Vermy

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Squirtle: 55:45 falco
Ivysaur: 70:30 falco
Charizard 60:40 falco

Over all: 60:40/65:35

Squirtle does "good". Can hold up ok, as Toby and Shaya said, ftilt keeps Squirtle out a fair bit. Camping wont do much, due to his crouch, size and aerial manouverability. I dare say cg>gatling combo> aerial follow up would work better vs squirtl in the long run. Meteor cancelling still applies, and the dair wont keep a good squirtle down, even with an edge hog.

Falco's camping > Ivysaur's camping. Not much Ivy can do here. Our options are as follows:
try to get you offstage (wishful thinking) and gimp you with:
bair
vinewhip edgehog
a well timed uair or usmash as you side b recover
apart from that, we got nothin'. It's no fox v pikachu, but a smart PT will probably switch when they get the chance.

Charizard doesnt do horrrible. But its still pretty bad. If he gets in his ftilt range, thats his prime. Think a slower, fatter marth with a couple less spacing options. Dtilt comes out fast and is a good spacing tool, and its sweetspot hits relatively hard, so watch out for that. Cg>Dair will get you hit by upB, as it has SA frames on start up. If he gets you off stage, Fair WILL gimp you. That being said, go pew pew crazy, play patient and annoying. Rocksmash can be reflected, and it hurts.

This shouldn't be terrible hard for Falco unless the PT switches to squirtle and gets a good rhythm going.
 

Steeler

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this matchup is as gay as falco wants it to be

it's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lol. the gayer it is the more in favor it is for falco.

it's also really really really stage dependent.
 

Vermy

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Steeler's right.
The super gay part and the stage dependant part.
Strike Brinstar vs PT, or else squirtle becomes a bad matchup, ivy won't get gimped any where near as easily, and charizard kills stupidly early. Rainbow Cruise is one to look out for as well, I've been using it as a cp vs anyone with crappy vertical recovery and it *****. As well as the ability to Zero Switch/Baton Pass whenever the hell I want to. I imagine it'd give Falco some trouble.

Cp with FD or Japes if the PT was dumb enough not to strike it.
 

Typ_Ex

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this matchup is as gay as falco wants it to be

it's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lol. the gayer it is the more in favor it is for falco.

it's also really really really stage dependent.
heh, he played me at OHSNAP. dont know if he played any other falcos to make him say that though.
 

Steeler

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heh, he played me at OHSNAP. dont know if he played any other falcos to make him say that though.
i played sethlon in pools and beat him but it was reaaaally close and backed up my thoughts about this matchup.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Let Kismet talk to you about this. Seriously.

I like this quote--"-You- make the matchup doable for PT, not Squirtle."

This is not fun. I'd say 60-40, probably. My mind always shifts as we learn new tactics, heh.

Kismet plays much safer nowadays, by the way.
 
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