Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #10: Game and Watch

TLMSheikant · Aug 12, 2009

Slight Advantage 55:45

Best Stage to fight Game and Watch on:

Other good stages:
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island brawl
-Halberd

Worst Stage to fight Game and Watch on:

Other bad stages:
-Corneria
-Green Greens

Moves to watch out for:

Back air (turtle), Jab, Down throw, UpB, Fair, Nair, Upair, Down air, Smashes, Down Tilt

Moves that are useful in this matchup:

Back air, Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Upair, Nair, Usmash

Summary:
G&W bucket braking and good kill moves can give us problems. In the same time our items and speed can give G&W some problems. G&W is also able to spotdodge TL's grab after a B-air so be wary of that as it can mean a free smash or grab to a down throw tech chase. Zair outranges his turtle through and bombs will beat the back air too . GnWs down tilt beats out toonlinks projectiles. His upair can also give you a lot of trouble. Just be patient and dont down air or airdodge, just DI to the side and avoid the wind so u can get back to safe ground. An ibomb can work to get you out of a juggling situation too.

Learn the timing for teching the down throw and mix up your getup to avoid getting tech chased too much. Being predictable with your teching can spell trouble for you (or a smash attack at high percents). You want to be far away from GaW, if on a large stage you will win by keeping your distance. Do not try to get too close and keep pressuring him with your proyectiles, and try to kill with moves like Uair that dont have much commitment. Zair is very good in this matchup as it outranges most, if not all of G&W's approaches. Be wary of a spaced Key, it can get past an Uair and it can KO you if its not diminished and you are on high %.

TL;DR- Lots of bomb and spaced zair, avoid his smashes, dont get upair'd, tech the down throw in different and unpredictable ways.

Thanks to everyone for the input

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Old Game and Watch Matchup Discussion

Sosuke · Aug 12, 2009

Bait & punish.

demonictoonlink · Aug 12, 2009

I'm still not here...but I honestly think there are too many MU discussions going on at a time. We currently have three...Maybe if we can get finished ones locked and referenced to in a sticky this could work?

Also, 55-45 either way. I actually play a great GaW oftenish, so I kinda have credential... Zair like a *****. Retreating Zair is WAY too good. Learn to tech down throw. A guaranteed Sour-spot Dsmash racks up damage like hell. (Follow instruction one. You shouldn't be grabbed.) Buckedt-braking is a small issue. If you hit with Usmash or Utilt and they will live with BBing, follow up with an Uair. Bucket has long ending lag.

MJG · Aug 12, 2009

Keep GnW the hell away from you. Tech his down throw obviously. If you get caught by his Turtle (Bair), u can DI up and punish with a fast falled bair. All of his moves are pretty telegraphed so i dont think it should be extremely hard for toonlink. Bait his moves. Up Air Beats GnW's Down Air. Watch out for GnWs trying to airdodge into you do smash/grab you. GnWs down tilt will beat out toonlinks projectiles if played right along with Bair. When it comes to our bombs and GnWs bair, our bombs will eat through GnWs bair and hit him regardless.

Battle field would play out in GnWs favor. Green Greens is great for GnW as well but that stage is banned in most areas. Corneria should be banned also.

55:45 Toonlink or 50:50

Chip. · Aug 12, 2009

60-40 TL imo

-Tempest- · Aug 12, 2009

Chip. said:
60-40 TL imo

Why do you say that? I have trouble getting around Game and Watch, and I'm not really sure why. That turtle is too beast.

Chip. · Aug 12, 2009

-Tempest- said:
Why do you say that? I have trouble getting around Game and Watch, and I'm not really sure why. That turtle is too beast.

Throw bombs. Zair.

-Tempest- · Aug 12, 2009

It's really that simple? Wow, I've been overcomplicating things...

UncleSam · Aug 12, 2009

~mjg~ said:
Battle field would play out in GnWs favor. Green Greens is great for GnW as well but that stage is banned in most areas. Corneria should be banned also.

55:45 Toonlink or 50:50

bait&punish on green greens, dsmash kills entire cast there. you have to be sneaky about it tho

EDIT: 1,000th post

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Aug 12, 2009

Matchup is definitely 55 - 45 Toon Link. If Mr. Game & Watch didn't kill so early he'd be toast. Anyways, we have it even, all out projectiles are useful, I don't really arrow cancel too much when they are close cause they could powershield it. Our bombs come in handy too. Learn to tech his **** Dthrow. Don't try it on Wi-Fi though. It's impossible. Zair is useful in this MU. Camp him hard. When he's above you 9 times out of 10 he'll Dair so I just move to one side and Fsmash him. xD Oh and his Turtle. IDK if Zair can out range it. Oh well. All I got. I completeley forgot how I deal with the turtle. =\

UncleSam · Aug 12, 2009

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
Matchup is definitely 55 - 45 Toon Link. If Mr. Game & Watch didn't kill so early he'd be toast. Anyways, we have it even, all out projectiles are useful, I don't really arrow cancel too much when they are close cause they could powershield it. Our bombs come in handy too. Learn to tech his **** Dthrow. Don't try it on Wi-Fi though. It's impossible. Zair is useful in this MU. Camp him hard. When he's above you 9 times out of 10 he'll Dair so I just move to one side and Fsmash him. xD Oh and his Turtle. IDK if Zair can out range it. Oh well. All I got. I completeley forgot how I deal with the turtle. =\

bomb>turtle
arrows clash w/ bacon
rang clashes with fair/nair

and I've seen GnW FFnair it pops you up so DI left or right to keep your self from getting combo'd but they will try to Fair/bair after that so FFAD when you see it coming and Usmash/Utilt

MJG · Aug 12, 2009

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage said:
Matchup is definitely 55 - 45 Toon Link. If Mr. Game & Watch didn't kill so early he'd be toast. Anyways, we have it even, all out projectiles are useful, I don't really arrow cancel too much when they are close cause they could powershield it. Our bombs come in handy too. Learn to tech his **** Dthrow. Don't try it on Wi-Fi though. It's impossible. Zair is useful in this MU. Camp him hard. When he's above you 9 times out of 10 he'll Dair so I just move to one side and Fsmash him. xD Oh and his Turtle. IDK if Zair can out range it. Oh well. All I got. I completeley forgot how I deal with the turtle. =\

Walking to the side to F smash will only work so many times.

GreyClover · Aug 12, 2009

G&W can't bucket our projectiles. Zair outranges G&W Bair and all other approaches.

Turtle isn't that much of a threat just DI out of it. Now the Dthrow, that's something. Nothing much you can do about it except get tech chased.

UTDZac · Aug 12, 2009

G&W vs. TL is hard for G&W. I don't like it =(

G&W's like to:
1. Be aggressive
2. Hit you with smash attacks
3. Bucket projectiles

TL's like to:
1. Run away
2. Zair your smashes
3. Spam unbucketable projectiles

Sosuke · Aug 12, 2009

TL doesn't have projectiles that G@W can bucket.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Aug 12, 2009

lol Zair outranges Turtle. 60 - 40 Toon Link

Ashraf23 · Aug 12, 2009

Ya zair can out range his turtle. And they like to rack up damage with smashes and Bair, so it's easy we just be patient and camp. If a TL is camping properly they can't find many ways to approach us. I'm also pretty sure Uair out ranges his Dair, cause they like that a lot too. And for once we shouldn't have an issue killing the enemy this time lol. So we can actually afford to use Usmash a couple times on one stock in this match up. Anyway, bombs and zair are killer against g&w. If TLs play this game smart it shouldn't be a problem.

60-40, TL

Sosuke · Aug 12, 2009

You guy's haven't played any good G@W's if you think the turtle is at all the problem.

TheJerm · Aug 12, 2009

I personally dont think zair is good in this match up.. this is prlly why ZAC is so hard for me =[.. But I still say its 55-45 TL.

A2ZOMG · Aug 12, 2009

sasukebowser said:
You guy's haven't played any good G@W's if you think the turtle is at all the problem.

This.

G&W is also able to spotdodge TL's grab after a B-air by the way.

Good G&Ws also learn to catch items, since they know Diddy is one of their harder matchups. Arrows and Boomerang don't work that well, and Z-air is only safe on retreat.

Anyhow, G&W also edgeguards TL extremely well, while it can be significantly harder for TL to land a KO move in most situations.

Even if TL had the advantage, it's definitely not 6/4 TL.

TheJerm · Aug 12, 2009

Boomerang doesnt work that well? Plz play a TL that knows what he's doing. Everything else you said sounds legit though

QUIVO · Aug 12, 2009

Boomerang IMO, only works well for punishing jumps if we read them right. Their bair and nair (at certain angles) will just eat it.

Chip. · Aug 13, 2009

-Tempest- said:
It's really that simple? Wow, I've been overcomplicating things...

No, it's not that simple. At the highest levels of play, G&Ws can be seriously hard to beat with proper stage counter-picking and match-up knowledge. I play with one of the best G&Ws in the country, Valdens, and he's very tough to beat although I do beat him quite often.

It's 60-40 IMO but by no means is it a walk in the park.

-Tempest- · Aug 13, 2009

Hmm... I see. Alright, I'ma test this out. Oh Snap should have a fair few G&W players, right?

UTDZac · Aug 13, 2009

-Tempest- said:
Hmm... I see. Alright, I'ma test this out. Oh Snap should have a fair few G&W players, right?

I will be there, come find me. I've got enough Santi experience I think

Lobos · Aug 13, 2009

I also agree that this is in TL's favor now but its not a far margin(55-45 TL) . G&W bucket braking and good kill moves can give us problems. In the same time our items and speed can give G&W some problems. Like chip said, the stages fought vs G&W can make or break the match. The last time I played a good G&W was at apex tho >_> and no one from TX played me except for dojo and light since everyone else was scared ^.^

copacetic · Aug 13, 2009

60-40 TL.
It's been a while since I played OBM but if I remember right, you have to be very patient when they u-air you. TL is pretty floaty so they can keep us up there for a while, and we can't throw bombs down since they'll float back into our face and explode. Definitely do NOT dair, that's just stupid. best choice is to float harmlessly and wait for them to do something + punish.

A2ZOMG · Aug 13, 2009

copacetic said:
60-40 TL.
It's been a while since I played OBM but if I remember right, you have to be very patient when they u-air you. TL is pretty floaty so they can keep us up there for a while, and we can't throw bombs down since they'll float back into our face and explode. Definitely do NOT dair, that's just stupid. best choice is to float harmlessly and wait for them to do something + punish.

If you wait too long, you'll eventually get poked by a N-air or Up-B. And of course, air dodging is obviously not a good idea.

Sosuke · Aug 13, 2009

iBombing does sorta **** G&W.
And make air dodging safe.

MJG · Aug 14, 2009

An angle boomerang "can" counter a campy GnW.

This match up is fun IMO.

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage · Aug 14, 2009

I love this matchup. xD Its fun like ~mjg~ said. Its like 55 - 45 Toon Link.

Inferno3044 · Aug 14, 2009

Mario boards are discussing the TL matchup. Give your input so that it is as accurate as possible:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=97

Valdens · Aug 21, 2009

I think it's even. GnW has all the tools to get inside of Toon Link and cause some damage, not to mention he can edgeguard him well, but has trouble landing smashes consistently.

A2ZOMG · Aug 21, 2009

sasukebowser said:
iBombing does sorta **** G&W.
And make air dodging safe.

What exactly? If you're talking bomb dropping, it is pretty useless if he Up-Bs or U-airs.

Sosuke · Aug 21, 2009

Dropping bombs while air dodging.

TLMSheikant · Aug 25, 2009

I think Ill give this to TL 55:45-60:40. If you dont like it talk now or forever be silent. XD.

Valdens · Aug 25, 2009

I'd say it's closer to 55:45, 60:40 indicates the matchup is relatively easy when Toon Link constantly has to be on his toes to not be edgeguarded or die from smashes at 75. I won't bug you if that's the number you post.

UTDZac · Aug 25, 2009

I would also go with 55:45 in TL favor provided he camps and projectile spams correctly. Both characters can find it difficult to kill the other, that's one of the things that annoys me most about this matchup.

TLMSheikant · Aug 25, 2009

55-45 it is

.

MJG · Aug 25, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
55-45 it is .

I agree with these numbers

I thought you said you were quitting the boards? :laugh:

Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #10: Game and Watch

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