Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #10: Game and Watch

[1Zero99Lucia5]

I think the Match-up should be

50-50

Toon Link can easily outcamp GaW, but GaW has his Up-B, which can't be canceled by bombs or other projectiles. I mostly play against kaakº his GaW, so I have experience against good GaW's.

 

[Ayoub]

Dthrow to dsmash, you can zair the edge when they do this at high percents, so you won't die. Right? I mean the tricks to grab the edge with zair while you're DIing down and sliding over the stage. Time the zair!

 

[MJG]

Dthrow to dsmash, you can zair the edge when they do this at high percents, so you won't die. Right? I mean the tricks to grab the edge with zair while you're DIing down and sliding over the stage. Time the zair!

Tech the down smash.

 

[Ayoub]

Tech the down smash.

I know, but when you didn't do it good, you can always Zair the edge, right?
I did it sometimes vs fox's downsmash. xP

 

[copacetic]

I don't get d-thrown anymore. It's always up or off the edge.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I don't get d-thrown anymore. It's always up or off the edge.

That's awesome, you want a birthday cake or something?

 

[copacetic]

That's awesome, you want a birthday cake or something?

I'm sorry did I offend you or something? All I was saying is that from my experience, the d-throw tactic is losing favor. I'm sorry if that particular throw was your friend and you feel personally attacked by my previous statement.


@Ayoub: yeah you can tether the ledge. It's a great trick if you miss the tech and can react fast enough

 

[Kaffei]

That's awesome, you want a birthday cake or something?

Hi wooloolol guy. Hows it going? I have some questions.

Is it a bad idea to use fair occasionally to rack up damage? I know that it's one of the main kill moves, so I was thinking that if I used it too much it would go stale..
Can I avoid that problem if I grab & pummel?

Oh & what should I look out for when I fight G&W?

 

[WindMajor]

Wait I have a doubt. I thought when you guys said tech the Dsmash, you guys meant use the Zair on the edge. When you say tech the dsmash, what do you really mean?

 

[Kaffei]

Wait I have a doubt. I thought when you guys said tech the Dsmash, you guys meant use the Zair on the edge. When you say tech the dsmash, what do you really mean?

If I'm correct, they mean to DI down, then press L/R within 20 frames of landing.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I'm sorry did I offend you or something? All I was saying is that from my experience, the d-throw tactic is losing favor. I'm sorry if that particular throw was your friend and you feel personally attacked by my previous statement.

lol I was just being ******** as usual.

 

[Sosuke]

I should mod the TL too board so I can infract for dumb stuff like that.

 

[Kaffei]

Does anyone want to answer my question

 

[Sosuke]

Post it in the Inquiry thread?

 

[Kaffei]

Post it in the Inquiry thread?

Even if it's about G&W? Well, ok then.

 

[Ayoub]

Hi wooloolol guy. Hows it going? I have some questions.

Is it a bad idea to use fair occasionally to rack up damage? I know that it's one of the main kill moves, so I was thinking that if I used it too much it would go stale..
Can I avoid that problem if I grab & pummel?

Oh & what should I look out for when I fight G&W?

Well, I would use bair to rank up damage, and projectiles of course.
It's better to save fair to kill G&W, since he has good DI.

Uhm, watch out for bair and annoying overpowered smashes. Those are the main problem. xP Oh, and watch out for dthrow. He can dsmash, mindgame usmash, or jab > hammer (can be avoided pretty easily) out of it. xP I just started TL, so I don't know much yet.

 

[Kaffei]

Well, I would use bair to rank up damage, and projectiles of course.
It's better to save fair to kill G&W, since he has good DI.

Uhm, watch out for bair and annoying overpowered smashes. Those are the main problem. xP Oh, and watch out for dthrow. He can dsmash, mindgame usmash, or jab > hammer (can be avoided pretty easily) out of it. xP I just started TL, so I don't know much yet.

Oh, ok. I'm not too familiar with this matchup so anything helps. Thanks.

 

[Ayoub]

Oh, ok. I'm not too familiar with this matchup so anything helps. Thanks.

I'm not familliar with any match up. XD Just know the basics.

 

[MJG]

Teching GnWs down Smash is pretty easy (unless your playing wifi)

For some characters, the down smash doesnt work on them anymore at a certain percentage. What i will do is just get up and up tilt the GnW. The problem with doing this instead of teching the down throw is that they can just do Jab>Grab again.

 

[Splice]

*hasn't read whole thread*

My 2 cents;

You want to be far away from GaW. if on large stage you will win by keeping your distance. Do not try to get to close and pressure him, and try to kill with moves like Uair in preference to smashes (if smashes miss GaW will be close to you. If GaW is close to you he will do damage). Zair is good if he starts to pressure you. Be wary of a spaced Key, it can get past an Uair and it can KO you if its not diminished and you are on high %.

Moves that are good : Uair, Bombs, Boomerang, Zair, UpB(in some situations only though, i think it can kill which is why i mention it).

Moves that are bad : Fsmash, Dair(it can be Uaired and then you will be in a bad position), Arrows (i think they are too slow a lot of the time, and Bomb and Boomerang are better options), Grab (not worth the punishment if it misses, and its easy for a fast character to escape, only use if they are in a form of lag)

Bad things to do : Trying to hit GaW whilst he is recovering from below the stage, Get too close, Trying to land near him when getting to the stage

Good things to do : Spamming bombs, spacing with Zair, Guarding the edge with projectiles - be ready to Uair if his UpB goes above the ledge, DIing away from him when coming in for landing.

Good Stages : Final Destination, Pirate Ship, Pictochat (IMO).
Bad Stages : Battlefield, RC, Norfair.

Id imagine the larger stage-part (ship deck) of Halberd would benefit Toon Link, but the first part is really good for GaW.

 

[WindMajor]

I agree with what Splice says. Getting hit by GaW's Up B when he's recovering from below is a stage spike waiting to happen. Best to toss bombs below, or if you're feeling lucky, just go for the edgehog. Other than that, yeah... we have to spam projectiles while he recovers. The usual.

Question. What has more priority? TL's Dair, or GaW's Up B? I'm curious...

 

[demonictoonlink]

Up B has the priority advantage here

 

[UTDZac]

TL dair beats the top half of GW UpB. The bottom half has invincibility frames. Santi consistently hits me out of my UpB when I try to follow up a combo. It's annoying.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Where the hell is the summary?!?! D: It's been weeks.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Sorry :/ this isnt easy



Slight Advantage 55:45

Best Stage to fight Game and Watch on:

Other good stages:
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island brawl
-Halberd

Worst Stage to fight Game and Watch on:

Other bad stages:
-Corneria
-Green Greens
-Jungle Japes
-Brinstar

Debatable:
-Rainbow Cruise

Moves to watch out for:
Back air (turtle), Jab, Down throw, UpB, Fair, Nair, Upair, Down air, Smashes, Down Tilt

Moves that are useful in this matchup:
Back air, Zair, Bombs, Boomerang, Upair, Nair, Usmash

Summary:
G&W bucket braking and good kill moves can give us problems. In the same time our items and speed can give G&W some problems. G&W is also able to spotdodge TL's grab after a B-air so be wary of that as it can mean a free smash or grab to a down throw tech chase. Zair outranges his turtle through and bombs will beat the back air too . GnWs down tilt beats out toonlinks projectiles. His upair can also give you a lot of trouble. Just be patient and dont down air or airdodge, just DI to the side and avoid the wind so u can get back to safe ground. An ibomb can work to get you out of a juggling situation too.

Learn the timing for teching the down throw and mix up your getup to avoid getting tech chased too much. Being predictable with your teching can spell trouble for you (or a smash attack at high percents). You want to be far away from GaW, if on a large stage you will win by keeping your distance. Do not try to get too close and keep pressuring him with your proyectiles, and try to kill with moves like Uair that dont have much commitment. Zair is very good in this matchup as it outranges most, if not all of G&W's approaches. Be wary of a spaced Key, it can get past an Uair and it can KO you if its not diminished and you are on high %.

TL;DR- Lots of bomb and spaced zair, avoid his smashes, dont get upair'd, tech the down throw in different and unpredictable ways.

Thanks to everyone for the input . Sorry for being late but Ive been busy lately...Also...I couldnt find frame data .

 

[Valdens]

I dunno why Rainbow Cruise wasn't included in stages to watch out for/worst stage. It's one of, if not the worst stage for TL in this matchup IMO, Chip always bans it against me.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Well, TL does well there too. I was going to mention it but I dont think its bad at all compared the ones mentioned. If anything, G&W does better in RC but TL has a fair chance there anyway. Ugh, I forgot to include Jungle Japes.

 

[TheJerm]

Sorry Valdens, TL's should not ban RC against GnW. I've beaten hylian and UTD ZAC there.

 

[UTDZac]

Sorry Valdens, TL's should not ban RC against GnW. I've beaten hylian and UTD ZAC there.

You beat me there because of dsmash gimp at 2%. Wanna MM. 2/3 on rainbow cruise only. $5 =)

I think it's a great stage against TL, only if the G&W knows what to look for and what to avoid. Otherwise it feels even.

EDIT: Why did I upload that match =( lol

 

[TheJerm]

Zac, i'm not saying, TL beats GnW on RC. Just dont waste your ban on RC, when you can ban other things. Then I used me beating you and hylian as back up to why not to ban. You also got an early gimp that same match.

And I decline your RC MM, just take me there next time we meet in tournament.. you always get one of us xD <3

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60M7sjTBto Even after the gimp, you still had percent lead, so the stage definitely isnt something we should ban.

 

[Chip.]

G&W ***** TL on RC you guys are crazy lol.

That, or Valdens is really good there. I'm pretty sure he's the best G&W in this match-up too.

Back to my opinion on the match-up. I feel that GW has more 60-40 match-ups vs TL on non-neutrals like RC and Brinstar while TL has more 60-40 match-ups on neutrals like FD and SV, but TL has a few non-neutrals that give him an advantage (but not necassarily 60-40) on stages like Halberd or Delphino. I guess when I think about it, 55-45 overall sounds more acceptable than 60-40 overall.

Valdens and I know everything front to back on this match-up; just listen to us haha =D

 

[Valdens]

What Chip said. GnW just blatantly benefits from this stage a lot more than TL does, and is at the same time less susceptible to being gayed by a good margin.

 

[TheJerm]

Well, either way, that still gives TL a slight advantage because the first stage has to be played on a neutral. Just strike the right stages and TL gets what he wants no matter what. Even if we lose the GnW's CP, we still get a neutral for game 3.

And I still dont suggest banning RC, but thats just a personal preference I guess.

 

[Valdens]

Right. TL has the small advantage.

That's been agreed upon prior, lol.

 

[UTDZac]

Valdens and I know everything front to back on this match-up; just listen to us haha =D

I'm glad there's another pair of players who know a lot about this matchup. I was quite annoyed at the other G&W's when I kept telling them the match was bogus after playing Santi and Jerm a ton. It's not as easy as it looks.

An aggressive/impatient TL will have a hard time against G&W.

 

[TLMSheikant]

U guys forget that we are horrible in Jungle Japes and G@W is good there. We should be banning that ASAP or brinstar before RC. I'd rather face a G@W in RC than Jungle Japes any day.

 

[Chip.]

Don't ban Japes Trust me on that one haha you wont regret playing G&W there if you play your cards right.

And yeah UTD Zac, us G&W and TL mains stick together like peanut butter and jam!!!!!~

 

[GodMeowMix]

I don't understand how Battlefield would be the worst stage for Toon Link, at the worst I'd say the match up would be even at that stage. In my opinion I think Yoshi's is worse for Toon Link then on Battlefield, on Battlefield both players have the option of using the platforms and stage to their advantage, on Yoshi's you have that huge annoying middle platform and considering Yoshi's is the smallest horizontal neutral (at least I think it is) I think it'd give G&W the upper hand in getting kills.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Battlefield= nair combos for G@W all day.

 

[.REMIX.]

I honest think that its 60-40 imo. TL ***** G&W hard...