Falco Stage Discussion ~ Week 7/8: Pokemon Stadium 2 and Rainbow Cruise

Vlade · Aug 22, 2009

Falco Stage Discussion

Objectives:

-To discuss falco's pros and cons on specific stages
-Analyse the behaviour of the stage
-Determine counterpicks and bans (even though there already is a list) and why
-Give the stages ratings out of 10 as to how good it is for falco
-Discuss tips and tricks to take note of when playing on each stage

Please try and post a quality, well-thought-out analysis to contribute to this discussion. It doesn't have to be a massive essay - a small paragraph with neat tips and tricks for the stage will also be useful. I'll be quoting the most informative posts about each stage, so do your best to contribute and get recognised!

I'll be updating this discussion weekly-ish

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Week 1: Halberd

Xonar said:
-To discuss falco's pros and cons on specific stages
Pros:
Low ceiling, early kills
Hazards strengthened by a good grab game
Flying stage part promotes lasers
Cons:
You have to sweetspot ledge to recover, else you fall.
Can get stalked from below (multi-jump characters)
Flying stage part demotes lasers

-Analyse the behaviour of the stage
First you start on a Final Destination-like stage, however after a few seconds a platform rises above it and you are shot into the skies. This part of the stage is nothing special. The shape is odd, but no surprising behaviors. After that you land on another stage, this is a flat stage with a platform in the middle. This is where things get strange. There are 3 hazards:
The claw:
The claw is a strong mechanical object located in the background, when you get targeted you can shield or spotdodge it. Grabbing someone is smart if they're in kill percentages as he will be hit by it. Kills at ??
The laser:
The laser is no threat at all. It will identify itself by a targeting visor and will follow the (lowest/highest) percentage target on the screen. You can let it follow the opponent by hitting him (like a game of tag). IF you get hit, smash/tap DI out of it. Don't stay to close because the final hit has extra range. Kills at ??
The cannon:
This one is probably easily avoided. It fires a cannonball that very slowly goes up and disappears, only to very slowly fall down on the stage. It kills bat**** early and DONT GET GRABBED or some characters might've just killed you. Kills at ??

-Give the stages ratings out of 10 as to how good it is for falco
7/10. It doesn't give real advantages beside your grab game but you can use it if you feel comfortable on it.
-Discuss 'workarounds' where possible for bad aspects of a stage
Sweetspot the ledge.

Week 2: Delfino Plaza

Marcbri said:
I don't really like Delfino, falco is average here, but we should never counterpick here because it may make our opponent change his character to something like MK who ***** here.

imo Falco can fight well here but it's a stage that should be avoided against a lot of match-ups and it's only effective against some.

we could add this to every stage. for delfino imo:

characters we should NOT bring here: MK, Snake, ROB, Pika,Marth,Ike,Jigglypuff,Ness,DK,Yoshi, Kirby, DDD,G&W...

characters that we could take here: Olimar, ICs...

5/10

Week 3: Brinstar

DEHF said:
Stage weakens Falco's laser camping game with the strange pillar at the sides that the opponent can hide behind. The stage being really small and the non-flat surface takes away his ability to IAP or even use side b as an attack at all.

You have to be very precise when using your side b on this stage, if you overshoot your side b you could go through the stage and die. The lava and platforms makes this not as bad, plus there are platforms that add your recovery options.

One of the things that this stage does for Falco that no other stage does is strengthen his offstage game. If there is lava and your opponent is offstage you can be more risky without having fear that you'll lose a stock if you make a mistake. If someone wants to counter pick you here that loves to play offstage a lot, it may not be a bad idea to let them take you there (unless they're MK :D).

Xeylode said:
We can make sure our Bair is almost never staled. Lasers count as our attack gauge and hitting them against the pillars while pseudo-camping with SHL/SHDL basically refreshes our entire moveset.

Week 4: Lylat Cruise

swordsaint said:
Lylats not a terrible stage for Falco imo.

Recovering, I have no issues I wouldn't have on any other stage. Edgeguards remain the same. The only reason you'll be getting 'gayed' by the ledge is if you screw up. It is VERY easy to space your phantasm right to grab the ledge, and it doesn't hurt firebird at all imo. Why? Because firebirds already trash, and if you're ever forced to use it even on a normal stage you should be dead. I don't think it tilts enough to hurt us.

Onstage, the characters people are suggesting we ban this on won't escape the chaingrab because of the slants. The characters that are good on this stage (MK, Snake) both fall fast enough, or are big enough to be chaingrabbed down a small slant. Lylats slants aren't huge by any means.

The slants HELP your camping game providing you know where to go. Go to the lower side, and SHDL from the lower side to the higher side. By doing this, both lasers shoot across the ground level of Lylat, making approaching difficult for opponents when combined with the 'umbrella' effect of the platforms, that additionally we can platform cancel on. I don't think the ceiling here is overly high either. It's average, meaning our kill options are still intact. Upsmash will still kill at reasonable percents and our other kill options uair/bair remain unphased seeing as most of the time our bair will kill an enemy that's already offstage anyway.

I don't find our phantasm game onstage to be hurt much. We can use it in slightly different ways here, by jumping a little higher and as a GTFO move from a short hop or full hop. The platforms are at good heights for this. In any case, if you're abusing phantasm so much onstage as to be affected by Lylats slants a great deal,l you should consider using your phantasm less because it's overrated.

Week 5: Pokemon Stadium 1

Slain Avenger said:
The only thing I absolutely HATE about this stage is the edge, it has to be sweet spotted or it gives you a handful of frustration.

Neutral transformation I love for falco, great for his camping game. Grass transformation I like too, doesn't hurt you much and the little gaps can prove helpful in many situations.

Fire is good for stalling/pseudo infinite's although it hurts you against certain characters that have really good close distance game against falco.

Water... Windmill sucks, platforms are meh.

I'd say 6/10

Week 6: Frigate Orpheon

Week 7: Final Destination

Week 8: Pokemon Stadium 2

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Week 9: Rainbow Cruise

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#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 22, 2009

-To discuss falco's pros and cons on specific stages
Pros:
Low ceiling, early kills
Hazards strengthened by a good grab game
Flying stage part promotes lasers
Cons:
You have to sweetspot ledge to recover, else you fall.
Can get stalked from below (multi-jump characters)
Flying stage part demotes lasers

-Analyse the behaviour of the stage
First you start on a Final Destination-like stage, however after a few seconds a platform rises above it and you are shot into the skies. This part of the stage is nothing special. The shape is odd, but no surprising behaviors. After that you land on another stage, this is a flat stage with a platform in the middle. This is where things get strange. There are 3 hazards:
The claw:
The claw is a strong mechanical object located in the background, when you get targeted you can shield or spotdodge it. Grabbing someone is smart if they're in kill percentages as he will be hit by it. Kills at ??
The laser:
The laser is no threat at all. It will identify itself by a targeting visor and will follow the (lowest/highest) percentage target on the screen. You can let it follow the opponent by hitting him (like a game of tag). IF you get hit, smash/tap DI out of it. Don't stay to close because the final hit has extra range. Kills at ??
The cannon:
This one is probably easily avoided. It fires a cannonball that very slowly goes up and disappears, only to very slowly fall down on the stage. It kills bat**** early and DONT GET GRABBED or some characters might've just killed you. Kills at ??

-Give the stages ratings out of 10 as to how good it is for falco
7/10. It doesn't give real advantages beside your grab game but you can use it if you feel comfortable on it.
-Discuss 'workarounds' where possible for bad aspects of a stage
Sweetspot the ledge.

Teran · Aug 22, 2009

The weird sloped platform that flies around before you land at the ship is lame because it screws with your IAP.

Denzi · Aug 22, 2009

The first part of the stage you have to be careful on, because if you're CGing someone, the Platform's rising causes a grab break. After that, the flying part, the slopes do mess with Phantasms and (to a lesser extent) silent Lasers, but the Platform is an optimal height for several aerial tricks that wouldn't work on regular stages. Grabbing someone so they get killed by the claw will only work if you have a higher numbered controller port, otherwise you'll be hit away and they'll take damage but won't move at all. Laser is easy to SDI out of, but the extra hit does catch a lot of people. It often times ends up in a good position for Falco to throw someone into for some free damage. The bomb is easy to avoid, but watch out for chars that can throw you into it, as well as chances to throw them. Also look out for Marth/Ike countering it. Low ceiling is an advantage against some but not against others (Snake), and the Jump through stage can cause some problems for a recovering Falco and also make gimps difficult for him.

-6.5/10 (5 being neutral)
*don't forget there are always matchup specifics.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 22, 2009

I would say avoid bringing MK here if they are stally. First part enables them to ledge stall by flying underneath the stage trying to attack you. 2nd part allows them to simply air camp effeciently because of the large space the stage covers. Center platform allows them a place to cancel out drills and tornados. The same would also apply to Wario I would believe. 2nd part enables them plenty of space to avoid your attacks.

This is pretty much Snake's best CP against most characters. There are better CPs against Falco in that MU Snake chooses against Falco, but most snakes will know how to utilize Halberd to there advantage. And as Denzi mentioned it the low ceiling is perfect for Snake.

Ike and MK also have a glitch they can exploit on the stage for the 2nd half. It enables them to get into that space where the flying platform disappears into. If they manage to get in there, they can attack you without fear of being hit. They can also SH aerials out of it and still stay in there. If they crouch, you cannot hit them at all.

NEVER HOLD DOWN ON THE CONTROL STICK WHEN PHANTASMING TO THE LEDGE!!! This will cause you to negate the autosnap feature that cancels out the phantasm. In other words, you'll miss the ledge completely and die.

Stage usefulness would be a 6/10. Doesn't wreck Falco, but neither doesn't it give him the greatest of advantages.

Jon? · Aug 23, 2009

Everyone pretty much summed it up. I'd give it a 6/10, not a bad counter pick for Falco but is a fairly even stage for him.

This is a favorite counter pick of mine. I'd take almost anyone here besides Snake, MK, and characters who gets the majority of their kills off the top.

AvoiD · Aug 23, 2009

I wouldn't recommend taking Marth here either, but thats my opinion.

Like everyone says, 6/10. And what Teran said, usually IAP will get you ***** in the beginning on the flying platform ****.

Can we suggest next stages? I'd say Yoshis Island or Delfino.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 23, 2009

Vlade = yesterday, 04:09 pm
Kuro = Today, 01:09 am

Only 21 hours later and new suggestions for the next stage is already being thought of xD

Just thinking ahead, I'd go with Delfino.

Another thing to add for this stage. Flying platform lasts roughly 90 seconds. Along with the Halberd's deck for the same amount of time. Unless information I suppose xD Also, I heard it mentioned before once that Falco's reflector can reflect the blast of the bomb that floats down. They reasoned me with the logic this works because the bomb acts as a projectile on the way down. Anyone confirm that. I never got around to seeing if what they said was true or not.

#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 23, 2009

__crystal____ said:
Also, I heard it mentioned before once that Falco's reflector can reflect the blast of the bomb that floats down. They reasoned me with the logic this works because the bomb acts as a projectile on the way down. Anyone confirm that. I never got around to seeing if what they said was true or not.

If that'd work it'd be EPIC MINDGAMES

BleachigoZX · Aug 23, 2009

I hate Halberd it messes with all of my spacing. But we can get some stupid stuff done here. 6/10

Vlade · Aug 23, 2009

Anyone seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxiXzgYuS7Y

Ike could've SDI'd out though, but this vid is 10 months old

Runawayfire · Aug 25, 2009

Halberd is easily my favourite stage, the large platform is great for forcing nair pressure. Also gives you good recovery options for phantasm onto platform. Not to mention earlier upsmash kills against characters who don't really kill upwards (meta) is a good thing to have going for you.

Juno McGrath · Aug 30, 2009

Eh. sometimes you end up phantasming right through the ledge and losing a stock way too early. I cant give in any higher than a 5, considering the CG breaks. The strange slope or even the odd mechanics of the laser/bomb. Plus, it belongs to MK. (the ship, obviously) so why would you even want to be there in the first place? I say theres no way id counter pick it. unless i had no other option.

#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 30, 2009

Snapp. said:
Eh. sometimes you end up phantasming right through the ledge and losing a stock way too early. I cant give in any higher than a 5, considering the CG breaks. The strange slope or even the odd mechanics of the laser/bomb. Plus, it belongs to MK. (the ship, obviously) so why would you even want to be there in the first place? I say theres no way id counter pick it. unless i had no other option.

1. not if you sweetspot it

2. if you get CG that early your opponent is a scrub

But it's no CP for falco, maybe some characters feel good on this stage but there's no reason not to take you to rainbow/frigate

Juno McGrath · Aug 30, 2009

Xonar said:
1. not if you sweetspot it

2. if you get CG that early your opponent is a scrub

But it's no CP for falco, maybe some characters feel good on this stage but there's no reason not to take you to rainbow/frigate

I said sometimes. everyone makes mistakes, man.

and most people in SC are scrubs. So im used to an easy chaingrab.

#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 30, 2009

Snapp. said:
I said sometimes. everyone makes mistakes, man.

and most people in SC are scrubs. So im used to an easy chaingrab.

nah, the sweetspot is darn big.

Another story is pokemonstadium or delfino (sighs)

Jon? · Aug 30, 2009

I'm actually alright with a Delfino Plaza counterpick. Throughout my tournament record, every time someone counter-picks Deflino against me, I end up winning. It's a frustrating stage, yes, but you have to play smart on the stage changes. Know when to camp on certain stages and recovery safely by aiming for platforms, sweet-spot edge, or ontop the level at a safe distance away from your opponent.

If a MK decides to shark, so be it. I'll just stand on the top platform and do my pivot walk for funsies.

#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 30, 2009

Jon? said:
I'm actually alright with a Delfino Plaza counterpick. Throughout my tournament record, every time someone counter-picks Deflino against me, I end up winning. It's a frustrating stage, yes, but you have to play smart on the stage changes. Know when to camp on certain stages and recovery safely by aiming for platforms, sweet-spot edge, or ontop the level at a safe distance away from your opponent.

If a MK decides to shark, so be it. I'll just stand on the top platform and do my pivot walk for funsies.

I know it's not bad for falco, I just dislike the edge

Notra · Aug 30, 2009

Xonar said:
I know it's not bad for falco, I just dislike the edge

i know what u mean. there r some stages i dont like for mental reasons. like for some reason i prefer battlefield over any lvl. and hate delfino alot.

Jon? · Aug 30, 2009

The stage I hate the most is Lylat Cruise. IAP becomes nullified and recovering becomes a bit harder.

I know for a lot of Falcos, Yoshi's Island can be very frustrating. My in-state tournys have this map as a default neutral. I figured, I better learn to adapt to this somewhat anti-Falco stage and not waste a stage ban on this map.

#HBC | ZoZo · Aug 30, 2009

Least favorite of mine are brinstar, lylat, yoshi, frigate, ps1.
So pretty much all of hollands stagelist.

Denzi · Aug 30, 2009

It's funny, because I don't mind Lylat or Yoshi's. My worst neutral is probably PSone.

YI Brawl is also a fantastic stage for Falco dittos.

Juno McGrath · Aug 30, 2009

Jon? said:
The stage I hate the most is Lylat Cruise. IAP becomes nullified and recovering becomes a bit harder.

I know for a lot of Falcos, Yoshi's Island can be very frustrating. My in-state tournys have this map as a default neutral. I figured, I better learn to adapt to this somewhat anti-Falco stage and not waste a stage ban on this map.

I always ban lylat. or "Strike" lylat. even though i still dont fully understand how the system works. I will not play that stage. ever. lol.

Jon? · Aug 30, 2009

Depending on who I'm going against, I ban certain stages.

Versus a MK main: ban Rainbow Cruise
Versus a Snake main: ban Lylat or Brinstar (depends on their playstyle)
Versus a IC main: ban FD or any other flat stage for that matter.

For characters who won't pick a hard counter stage, I just end up banning Yoshi's.

Juno McGrath · Aug 30, 2009

Jon? said:
Depending on who I'm going against, I ban certain stages.

Versus a MK main: ban Rainbow Cruise
Versus a Snake main: ban Lylat or Brinstar (depends on their playstyle)
Versus a IC main: ban FD or any other flat stage for that matter.

For characters who won't pick a hard counter stage, I just end up banning Yoshi's.

funny story. i have never won against any one on smashville. ever. its just bad luck.

Juno McGrath · Sep 3, 2009

guys, can we please keep this thread alive? stage disscussion is important.

Vlade · Sep 3, 2009

I'm rather busy at the moment, I'll get round to updating the OP as soon as I have some spare time on my hands.

Other suggestions for next stage to discuss?

Juno McGrath · Sep 3, 2009

delfino plz.

<33

thexsunrosered · Sep 4, 2009

bump2discuss

Jon? · Sep 4, 2009

I like Delfino. Throughout all my tournament experience, I've never lost to a MK's counterpick at Delfino.

Juno McGrath · Sep 4, 2009

well i like delfino too, water spike ftw.

Vlade · Sep 7, 2009

I'll add the summaries later, for now please discuss Delfino!

Emperor Time · Sep 7, 2009

Easy killing(cg out of stage, water spikes, etc.) opportunities, but our recovery is kinda hurt here.

exdia_16 · Sep 7, 2009

how would you kill a kirby i have done it before i showed you the replay emperor time.

GunmasterLombardi · Sep 7, 2009

Isn't Delfino a CP toward Falco?
Yeah, Falco's hard times with killing are nearly fixed here, but his stage dependance is inforced thanks to being more difficult to recover.

Delfino Plaza might be 5/10.

#HBC | ZoZo · Sep 7, 2009

-To discuss falco's pros and cons on specific stages
Pros:
Chaingrab off the edge
Multispiking
Some parts supporting camping
Cons:
Some parts discourage camping
Recovery gets beat up here
IAP might screw up on some parts
Stalking from below

-Analyse the behaviour of the stage
Big - *** quote incoming

Delfino Plaza appears as a default stage in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

The battle begins on a main platform that uses propeller-propulsion with two small transparent platforms above it and another large arching transparent platform above them. However, the arrangement of the platforms on changes each time the main platform picks characters up to move them to a different location. The formats are:
The starting arrangement of platforms described above.
The large main platform with three small platforms above it; one high up in the center and two lower ones to the left and right of the ledges.
The large main platform with two small platforms above it; one on the left and the other, slightly higher, on the right.
The large main platform with three small platforms above it; one high up in the middle and the other two lower, slanting diagonally down towards the stage from the left and right respectively.
Overall alotta platforms, not really an advantage for Falco. The ledge is hard to snap also. Stalking from below is irritating here also
The stage hovers toward Isle Delfino, which resides in the background and drops players off at numerous landmarks around the island. All of these variants make Delfino Plaza the stage with the most individual fighting arenas in SSBB. The locales are landed on in a random order and they are as follows:
The small, dune-shaped island to the east of a plaza. A warp pipe and a palm tree sit in the background here. The angles can **** up IAP, but it helps with grab releasing on wario and MK for example. The water is nice for CG > spike
The second, slightly larger island on the far western area of the main plaza. Both islands are surrounded by the ocean which can be swam in. Momentarily forgot this one I guess
The three grass-covered stone spires near the shoreline. Players can swim in the sea between the spires and also on the edges. Nice for off-the-top kills and chain spikes, make use of walljumping here
The row of buildings in front of the Shine Gate. Nothing special here, pick a side and camp. chaingrab > dair and they'll always roll away from the side, as it's too close to the edge.
The Shine Gate. Two platforms have been attached to either side. There is no ledge here, so watch out with that. This part ****s up falco's recovery
The walkway at the front of the main courtyard. The Pianta statue is absent from its usual spot. Great area for falco, nice camping and nice chain-spiking
The area in front of the dolphin fountain with a staircase on both sides. Bad for camping, good for chaingrabbing. If you CG someone here they'll always jump out, so abruptly stopping the CG and bairing might work
The area with a line of beach umbrellas to the left of the Shine Gate. The watery area is profitable for falco, just mistime shdl. the walkoff is nice for CGs
The two areas on the western edge of the island. A shallow veranda sits in between, which characters can walk around in, and a deeper section that requires swimming to navigate. durrr forgot this

Sorry for forgetting/confusing parts. Shoot me.
-Determine counterpicks and bans (even though there already is a list) and why
Not worth banning, but certainly not worth counterpicking. It just holds no profit, but the worse parts are mild.

-Give the stages ratings out of 10 as to how good it is for falco
5/10, not worth going here, under any circumstance.

-Discuss 'workarounds' where possible for bad aspects of a stage
Learn to snap the ledge, learn to work around the shape off the stage. Just learn the stage.

Emperor Time · Sep 7, 2009

Ew, out of 10. Just use 5.

Marcbri · Sep 7, 2009

I don't really like Delfino, falco is average here, but we should never counterpick here because it may make our opponent change his character to something like MK who ***** here.

imo Falco can fight well here but it's a stage that should be avoided against a lot of match-ups and it's only effective against some.

we could add this to every stage. for delfino imo:

characters we should NOT bring here: MK, Snake, ROB, Pika,Marth,Ike,Jigglypuff,Ness,DK,Yoshi, Kirby, DDD,G&W...

characters that we could take here: Olimar, ICs...

5/10

Juno McGrath · Sep 8, 2009

I like it. i can play here pretty well, not against a D3 or Mk. I dont think i can counter pick it against most characters. Oli, and Pokemon trainer, however, i can handle with ease here.

Vlade · Sep 15, 2009

I'm going to wait a while for more input, then update this thread

I'd just like to add that the best part of the stage for us is the 'FD-like' part, where it is just a flat ground for us that is ideal for our usual strategy.

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