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Landing Lag Cancelling with Wolf

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
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Location
Vienna
I hope this isn't known yet, but I haven't found a thread about it.

Usually, if you fall from a height of any size - including SHing - you will have landing lag once your character touches the ground. I'm sure you heard the thump with the chain-sound when landing? That's Wolf's unique landing sound. His lag is not extremely noticeable since he's a quick character, but it's still there.
There's a few characters that have moves that allow them to have absolutely no landing lag, such as Snake holding a grenade in his hand and landing on a dropthrough platform.
Wolf even has 2 possibilities of this - through his Blaster (B) and his Shine (DownB).

I'll explain how it works:
If you fall from any height and shoot or shine, Wolf will not have landing lag, UNLESS you give him another button input. This includes another move, another jump, fastfalling, going into a direction, airdodging or whatever else. Then, you have to shine or blaster again. Important: If the animation of Blaster isn't done, it will finish once you land. However, if the move is finished in the air, the same will happen as with the Shine.

I have tried this on several stages out of several positions with short hop, retrating jump, falling, doublejumping, moving platforms, dropthrough platforms, etc. It works like a charm. Fastfalling is very easy when shining, so if you don't get it sometimes, it's because you accidentally gave Wolf another button input. It only works when you are falling.
It also doesn't work if it's like HUGE heights. I suppose going by Battlefield's layout is easier to understand: I tried it with dropping from the top platform, there it worked. However, when I doublejumped from the top platform and landed on the main platform, it didn't work. I don't know exactly how wide the area is yet. I will try to find that out, though.

Now, I don't know Wolf so well to know all of his options, but some things I can give you to do with this.
I don't know what Wolf could do after using his blaster. The thing with the landing lag cancelling is probably best used with retreating blaster shots. Be aware of the fact that Wolf could turn around and shoot in the wrong direction or SideB (that happened to me several times) when you do that. I don't know what options he has, except for maybe jumping or running someplace else.

Now the Shine landing lag cancel, I could think of a use right off the bat. If your enemy shields, you can quickly shine, land, and grab them once you touch the ground. Since you have no landing lag, you're a few frames quicker. Throwing in a Shine after aerially approaching/attacking (BAir lawl) might be useful too.

As said, my knowledge about Wolf is very limited, so I can only give you the tool and you got to use it. It's just something I randomly found. As said, I hope it isn't already known, and useful to you waffles~
 

MidnightAsaph

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Doesn't matter. You're gonna end up finding something made full of win at this rate.


EDIT: if you didn't find anything, we might as well use this thread to explain it.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
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So wait, I'm kinda unclear on one thing. Does this also work when you shine in the air, the animation completes, and THEN you land? Or only if you land during the move so that it overwrites the landing lag?

:059:
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
After animation.

You shine (or shoot) from any height you want and once you land it has no lag. Unless you put in some other button input.
I also stand corrected, changing direction DOES impact it, it won't work then, however, if you have momentum (as in, you already go into a direction) it will work. It also seems that it doesn't work on bigger heights (see the OP as I tried it on Battlefield). It also works only if you're falling, so if your jump hasn't reached the peak yet, it won't work either.
 

Semifer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
212
Location
Germany
Does every single button input count, or only the ones who have effects?
E.g if start shielding during the shine, will I still land without any landing lag?

Btw: I didn't know that, and I actually know almost everything about him.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
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Messages
11,437
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I haven't tried that, to be honest. I tried everything that would have an effect (as listed in the OP).
But the shield button causes an airdodge, doesn't it? o.o
 

Semifer

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 25, 2008
Messages
212
Location
Germany
Yeah, but I mean you press the button right after the input for the shine, and I already found out that it has no effects^^.

And I just did some testings... You should know that I suppose that Snakes mine explodes at frame 1 when you land on it.

If you do a perfeclty buffered SH rising shine, you have landing lag.

If you wait a little bit after the jump and shine, you have NO landing lag (You powershield Snake's mine when you land on it)

After a perfectly buffered SH rising shine you have 4 or 5 frames until you land again. I know this because you can use Nair (hits on frame 4) in one SH with the shine, but not Bair (hits on frame 6).
This shows that these either 4 or 5 frames are too much to land without landing lag after a shine.
So the frame window between the end of the shine and the lagless land is either 1-3 or 1-4, which is not very much...

But I think this is still useful in exspecially one way:
Actually you can't combo from a shine into a grab, because the range of the grab is not big enough (except for DK). But with the momentum of the aerial shine (opp is in grab range after the hit) and the lagless landing it should be possible against all chars, who at least have an 5 frame disadvantage after the shine (has to be tested). Since Wolf's grab comes out in frame 6, and spot dodge has one frame startup lag. And the ones with a 4 frame disadvantage are still hit by a jab.

Shine Frame Advantage (Greatest to Smallest)
Jiggs: 7
Lucas: 6
G&W: 6
Squirtle: 6
Pika: 6
Kirby:6
MK: 6
D3: 6
Olimar: 6
Fox: 6
Falco: 6
ZSS: 6
Pit: 6
IC: 5, 7(nana)
Mario: 5
Luigi: 5
Peach: 5
Bowser: 5
Donkey: 5
Diddy: 5
Yoshi: 5
Ness: 5
Snake: 5
Sonic: 5
Charizard: 5
Zelda: 5
Sheik: 5
Ganon: 5
TLink: 5
Link: 5
Marth: 5
Wario: 4
Samus: 4
ROB: 4
Wolf: 4
CF: 4
Ivysaur: 4
Lucario: 4
Ike: 4

A small problem is, that you can't hit small chars with a SH lagless shine when they are grounded, so you have to hit them in the air with the shine (good way to interrupt aerials).
 

Red Arremer

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Ah, okay. As said, I have little knowledge about Wolf, so it's up to you guys to find ways to use it. I would make a video of using it and upload it, but I have no means to do so. xD
 

MidnightAsaph

Smash Lord
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I don't understand. If you use blaster at any time in the air at any height, you land without lag? I just went to test this, and I landed with the lag and the chain sound.

When I say during animation, and I mean during the time the blaster/shine is out, because after those animations are done, you just land with lag. Unless I'm misunderstanding everything.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
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It worked for me after the animations were done.
And not any time, only if you are FALLING and not any height. There is a limit to the height you can have, too, I haven't figured out yet what it is. But if you are falling and the animation of the move (blaster or shine) ends inside of these limits, you have no landing lag.

If someone of you can upload videos, I could make a replay of the different versions.
 

Semifer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
212
Location
Germany
I don't understand. If you use blaster at any time in the air at any height, you land without lag? I just went to test this, and I landed with the lag and the chain sound.

When I say during animation, and I mean during the time the blaster/shine is out, because after those animations are done, you just land with lag. Unless I'm misunderstanding everything.
It's difficult with the blaster because of his long duration, but I could land with a power shield on Snake's mine after using it in a FH, so it works, but the frame window between the end of the shine and the land seems to be very small as it is with the shine.

And I forgot: Thank you for your find, Oni^^.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Could somebody, who can investigate frame data take a look at this and try to confirm it? That just might be a lot more useful that you guys think^^

:059:
 

Semifer

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Location
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Could somebody, who can investigate frame data take a look at this and try to confirm it? That just might be a lot more useful that you guys think^^

:059:
A friend does this for me with frame by frame hack atm. I'll post results soon.
 

JCav

Smash Lord
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Michigan
ok heres my thoughts on something ive been doing for a while that is probably known


i like your idea onishiba, but shine and blaster to have a lot of cooldown before you can do another action.


i prefer using nair, u air, or bair (all equally have 10 frames of landing lag)

the main application for these is BSlag-not cancelling but if your like me and you love to lightstep and if you double jump and land on the stage your hit with some bullshiit lag, like 30 frames i think?

now if you do a nair/bair/uair right before you hit the ground it will reduce your lag and you can quickly buffer a jab or whatever


not discrediting you, just my thoughts...
 

MidnightAsaph

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I do lightsteps, and I've never noticed this lag, Jcav. I mean, maybe I'm not conscious of what I'm doing after a lightstep, maybe I bair or something, but really, never noticed lag. NOW, after a telestep, there's an *** load of lag.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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JCav, are you sure? All I know is that AC fair from the ledge still has BSL... do you have to land before the hitbox comes out?

:059:
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
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ok heres my thoughts on something ive been doing for a while that is probably known


i like your idea onishiba, but shine and blaster to have a lot of cooldown before you can do another action.


i prefer using nair, u air, or bair (all equally have 10 frames of landing lag)

the main application for these is BSlag-not cancelling but if your like me and you love to lightstep and if you double jump and land on the stage your hit with some bullshiit lag, like 30 frames i think?

now if you do a nair/bair/uair right before you hit the ground it will reduce your lag and you can quickly buffer a jab or whatever


not discrediting you, just my thoughts...
As said, I'm not very knowledgeable about Wolf, I just found this out while toying around with him, and thought it was interesting.
It might have good uses for mindgaming or so, and of course it's nothing revolutionary (at least I think, lol). It doesn't matter to me what you prefer, I just thought sharing this little detail would be the best. ^^
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
ok heres my thoughts on something ive been doing for a while that is probably known


i like your idea onishiba, but shine and blaster to have a lot of cooldown before you can do another action.


i prefer using nair, u air, or bair (all equally have 10 frames of landing lag)

the main application for these is BSlag-not cancelling but if your like me and you love to lightstep and if you double jump and land on the stage your hit with some bullshiit lag, like 30 frames i think?

now if you do a nair/bair/uair right before you hit the ground it will reduce your lag and you can quickly buffer a jab or whatever


not discrediting you, just my thoughts...
I think he's talking about something different.

See, when Snake lands on the ground while holding a grenade the landing lag will be canceled (you can test this with a Snake mine - if you do it right you can PS)...it has nothing to do with BSlag.
I think he's trying to explain that Wolf can do the same with Blaster/Shine ... and both moves are pretty useful in midair to avoid juggle traps so it might have its use...

:059:
 

Red Arremer

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So... what is the point of using Blaster or Reflector to cancel landing lag if both can be used in the air?
So, what is the point of having landing lag?
You're on the ABSOLUTELY wrong track here. Read the OP again.

I think he's talking about something different.

See, when Snake lands on the ground while holding a grenade the landing lag will be canceled (you can test this with a Snake mine - if you do it right you can PS)...it has nothing to do with BSlag.
I think he's trying to explain that Wolf can do the same with Blaster/Shine ... and both moves are pretty useful in midair to avoid juggle traps so it might have its use...
This.
 

JCav

Smash Lord
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JCav, are you sure? All I know is that AC fair from the ledge still has BSL... do you have to land before the hitbox comes out?

:059:
yea man im sure, if the animation of the move isnt over when you hit the ground then youll have landing lag in place of bsl


should i make a video?
 
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