Blog of the Week: My Feelings on Christianity/the bible

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I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place to put this, but I assume it is. Anyway...

I was discussing religion (specifically Christianity) with my mother the other day, and I realized that I have a lot of thoughts about it, and I really just feel the need to get it down somewhere. I rarely find opportunities to talk to anyone about these kinds of things, so I figure the best way is to post about it here.

So, let me start by saying a little about myself. If I had to call myself something in regards to religion, I suppose I would fall somewhere between Agnosticism and Atheism. I don't believe in a god, but I can't write off the possibility of one (or more). My father was raised Christian, but somewhere along the line came to the conclusion that it wasn't something he can believe in. My mother was raised Jewish. Neither of my parents are very religious; we may celebrate the holidays, but we have never gone to Church or Temple. I would say I have been raised with a very open mind to religion, and my parents kind of left it on me to build my own views. I've always been turned off by religion, and Christianity in particular. So, onto how I feel about Christianity (let me stress that this is how I feel, and I am by no means a scholar when it comes to religion).

I think Christianity can be a good thing. In fact, it can be a great thing. The problem is, this is only when one chooses to "cherry-pick" parts of the bible. So "love thy neighbor," may be a great moral (by the way, I apologize in advance if I botch any quotes. I'm doing most of this by memory), but "(homosexuals) must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads," or "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters..." are things that I cannot follow. So, I looked in the bible, and found numerous verses that appear to tell me that beating my wife is okay, beating/owning a slave is okay, beating my children is okay, homosexuals should be killed, etc, etc (I can find/link these verses if anyone wants. Off the top of my head... Leviticus 20:13, Titus 2:9).

So we got some good verses that preach good morals.. then we have the other ones I come across. What I don't understand is how these verses seem to be ignored, or accepted. Now, I'm a very anti-sexism/racism/etc kind of guy, so when I read these things, it makes me sick.

The way I see it, if you are going to be a Christian who follows the bible - you follow all of the bible. Not parts of it. The entire thing. I mean, is it okay to support a person who gives homeless people a home, but also beats his wife? I say no. I think it's unfair to just cherry-pick parts of the bible you like, because by calling yourself a Christian and following the bible, you are still supporting the entire thing.

So when I bring this kind of thing up, the usual response I get is "oh, but you are misinterpreting it." I think this is ridiculous. First of all, it looks very clear to me. I don't know how you could possibly misinterpret some of these. Anyway, my response will always be, "well isn't it awfully convenient that it's only the terrible things that are a misinterpretation?" Why can't "love thy neighbor" be a misinterpretation? Why can't that mean "**** your neighbor"? In my eyes, the bible clearly advocates slavery, sexism, violence, and homophobia.

Then we have the belief in god. I'm sure you've all heard it all when it comes to debates on god's existence, but I still want to get my feelings on that down as well. Basically, my feelings are that it's just as reasonable to believe that the universe was infinite as that god was infinite. But, I can't write off the possibility of a god. The way I see it, if god did exist, he would be beyond our abilities to prove or disprove. I don't like the Christian idea of god... more so the Futurama idea of god: a formless, emotionless, omnipotent being. I've always said that if a god existed, it wouldn't possess humanly emotions, and thus wouldn't need to be worshiped, etc. It is this belief that leads me to believe that most of the bible was just, well, written. No more or less true than Greek mythology. Only stories.

So then I wonder "why do people follow this? Is it the want or need to be part of a group? Why not make your own beliefs? Do they ignore these verses? Do they support them?" Now, I'm aware that I could be totally wrong about this, and by all means correct me.

I would like to really, really stress that I do not mean any disrespect to any Christians who may be reading this. I do not hold anything against you for being Christian, and I really don't want any hostility here. I fully acknowledge that I may be completely wrong in all of this, and if I am, I would like to know where and why. But again, no hostility.

Teranosaurus Rex said:

I will keep this open.

Any "lol religion sux and they all dumb" and "accept the word of Christ or burn in hell" will cause me to lock this thread.

Also no flaming/trolling or the same thing will happen.

Otherwise, discuss away.

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Absolutely.
Those are the last things I want to happen, and if they do, please don't hesitate to lock this.

It's really just a "religious beliefs" thing, and I obviously can't persuade you to think otherwise.

But what I've been taught pertaining to homosexuality is to love the person, not the act (i.e. homosexual acts are abominable). Even if the person commits the act, that doesn't necessarily mean that the person is bad (think of dog training).

May I ask, though, why you find the idea of a, quote, "formless, emotionless, omnipotent being" to be better than one that is, essentially, a human being on a higher plane? A god with no purpose kind of defeats the purpose of a god, in my opinion, and unless God made the earth, its inhabitants, and many other bodies (celestial or terrestrial) for an ultimate reason, then why would he make something? For "fun" or "entertainment"?

Kofu said:

It's really just a "religious beliefs" thing, and I obviously can't persuade you to think otherwise.

But what I've been taught pertaining to homosexuality is to love the person, not the act (i.e. homosexual acts are abominable). Even if the person commits the act, that doesn't necessarily mean that the person is bad (think of dog training).

May I ask, though, why you find the idea of a, quote, "formless, emotionless, omnipotent being" to be better than one that is, essentially, a human being on a higher plane? A god with no purpose kind of defeats the purpose of a god, in my opinion, and unless God made the earth, its inhabitants, and many other bodies (celestial or terrestrial) for an ultimate reason, then why would he make something? For "fun" or "entertainment"?

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But is it right to forbid a homosexual for acting on his/her sexuality, and wishing death upon him/her for it? That just seems unfair (amongst other things) to me.

I just don't like the idea of a god who is angry, vengeful, etc. I think that if a god exited, it's entire purpose would be to have created us, or our universe. I could give you the classic "god works in mysterious ways" response, but my personal view goes back to the "it is beyond our comprehension" point. There may have been a reason, there may not have. I certainly don't believe it would be for "fun" or "entertainment," simply because I don't believe that a god would have those humanly emotion.

But this is all assuming a god does exist, and it is just the viewpoint I have developed myself. If anything, I'm leaning more towards Atheism.

I can speak being a Christian for myself that yes, there are such passages in the Bible such as those you have stated in the OP (beating of wife, beating of slave, etc.). However, I think you should keep in mind that most of the "regulations" were mainly written in the Old Testament, before Christ, which was for God's people the Israelites. They were basically general rules / guidlines they had to follow. Similarily in Exodus there are full chapters explaning what to do if your cattle are stolen, and other information regarding, basically...law. These were instructions to the Israelites and while they are part of the Bible, not all of them are literal to us in the same sense that it was to them (the Israelites).

Those laws and something like for example the Ten Commandments have completely different status. The 10 Commandments: "Do not lie. Do not steal, etc." were the things set in stone for the Israelites and Christians strive to follow those rules. In the New Testament the passage you quoted "Love thy neighbor as thyself." was something Jesus told his disciplines, hoping to increase their personal relationship with God.

On God: God is omnipresent and omnipotent, and many other things. People think because a god can't have emotions means people shouldn't worship gods. In Christianity, God does not portray emtion as much as Jesus did, since Jesus was God in human form. However, God did not have emotion so that we may worship him, but MADE us to worship him. Of course, we are lacking in comprehension of God, so it's true we can't quite understand how God has emotion. But we Christians exist for the sole purpose of glorifying the Father, and spreading the word.

I would like to touch on some of the other topics you mentioned but I don't have too much time at the moment.

Hope I could help.

-Terywj

Melomaniacal said:

But is it right to forbid a homosexual for acting on his/her sexuality, and wishing death upon him/her for it? That just seems unfair (amongst other things) to me.

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I wouldn't say putting one to death is appropriate, in fact, I'd say let them do what they want; they have free will. The reason Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed is because basically the entire city was nothing but one big orgy. Is that a pleasant thought?

I just don't like the idea of a god who is angry, vengeful, etc. I think that if a god exited, it's entire purpose would be to have created us, or our universe. I could give you the classic "god works in mysterious ways" response, but my personal view goes back to the "it is beyond our comprehension" point. There may have been a reason, there may not have. I certainly don't believe it would be for "fun" or "entertainment," simply because I don't believe that a god would have those humanly emotion.

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I believe that humans can, ultimately, become gods if they follow commandments, and stemming from that, I would see that just as a parent gets frustrated when a child disobeys, a god, who created us, would get frustrated when his (or her) child disobeys.

I really don't have a good argument to what you said, mainly because it doesn't seem reasonable to me. What is our purpose, then, if the purpose of a god is just to create?

Terywj said:

I can speak being a Christian for myself that yes, there are such passages in the Bible such as those you have stated in the OP (beating of wife, beating of slave, etc.). However, I think you should keep in mind that most of the "regulations" were mainly written in the Old Testament, before Christ, which was for God's people the Israelites. They were basically general rules / guidlines they had to follow. Similarily in Exodus there are full chapters explaning what to do if your cattle are stolen, and other information regarding, basically...law. These were instructions to the Israelites and while they are part of the Bible, not all of them are literal to us in the same sense that it was to them (the Israelites).

Those laws and something like for example the Ten Commandments have completely different status. The 10 Commandments: "Do not lie. Do not steal, etc." were the things set in stone for the Israelites and Christians strive to follow those rules. In the New Testament the passage you quoted "Love thy neighbor as thyself." was something Jesus told his disciplines, hoping to increase their personal relationship with God.

On God: God is omnipresent and omnipotent, and many other things. People think because a god can't have emotions means people shouldn't worship gods. In Christianity, God does not portray emtion as much as Jesus did, since Jesus was God in human form. However, God did not have emotion so that we may worship him, but MADE us to worship him. We Christians exist for the sole purpose of glorifying the Father, and spreading the word.

I would like to touch on some of the other topics you mentioned but I don't have too much time at the moment.

Hope I could help.

-Terywj

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The ones I (semi) quoted I believe were both from the New Testament. I have found a few similar verses in the New Testament, though.
It just seems to me like... for example, the bible says, very plainly, "it's okay to have a slave, and beat him to death." How many other meanings can that have?
I'm going to reiterate again (I really don't want anyone to get me wrong, here, haha) that I'm not accusing anyone of being racist, sexist, etc.

It just seems to me that if someone created us to worship him... that displays some kind of desire to be worshiped, and thus some kind of human emotion. There are other examples that I don't have time to go into right now of cases that make god seem angry and whatnot (especially in the Old Testament).

I'm just really glad that this can be discussed calmly. I mean no disrespect to any of you, and I hope none of you mean disrespect to me.
(That's probably something I'm going to be repeating a lot, haha)

Kofu said:

I wouldn't say putting one to death is appropriate, in fact, I'd say let them do what they want; they have free will. The reason Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed is because basically the entire city was nothing but one big orgy. Is that a pleasant thought?


I believe that humans can, ultimately, become gods if they follow commandments, and stemming from that, I would see that just as a parent gets frustrated when a child disobeys, a god, who created us, would get frustrated when his (or her) child disobeys.

I really don't have a good argument to what you said, mainly because it doesn't seem reasonable to me. What is our purpose, then, if the purpose of a god is just to create?

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Death by orgy? ...hm... I've heard of worse
But what do you think about the bible verses that seem to plainly say "kill homosexuals"?

Eh, that's the idea I don't like. That a god can become "angry," or "frustrated." I just think a god would be above all of that. They seem like weak traits. I see no reason why a perfect being would feel anger or frustration.

I can see why it seems unreasonable. In my mind it's just one of those things that just... is. We are here, and that's the most important thing. Why we are here is not necessarily the most important thing. Perhaps we are here to just continue as a race. I don't have a real answer to it, either, to be honest. I just like to think that what we do while we are here is more important than what happens when we are gone. Life is beautiful; enjoy it while you can, purpose or not.

I guess that's the best I can do for that, haha.

Melomaniacal said:

The ones I (semi) quoted I believe were both from the New Testament. I have found a few similar verses in the New Testament, though.
It just seems to me like... for example, the bible says, very plainly, "it's okay to have a slave, and beat him to death." How many other meanings can that have?
I'm going to reiterate again (I really don't want anyone to get me wrong, here, haha) that I'm not accusing anyone of being racist, sexist, etc.

It just seems to me that if someone created us to worship him... that displays some kind of desire to be worshiped, and thus some kind of human emotion. There are other examples that I don't have time to go into right now of cases that make god seem angry and whatnot (especially in the Old Testament).

I'm just really glad that this can be discussed calmly. I mean no disrespect to any of you, and I hope none of you mean disrespect to me.
(That's probably something I'm going to be repeating a lot, haha)

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Darn. I almost thought for sure they were from the Old Testament. Guess my Bible memorization is a bit shaky, haha.

But yes, those quotes do make God seem like an angry and cruel "identity." However, in reality, that's exactly what he was like in the Old Testament. He was pretty strict and harsh on the Israelites, even once telling them to obliterate an opposing city, leaving no one alive. Other cases of like sacrficie and other stuff like that. So I can see where you're coming from. But you must know that his actions and the impulses we get from that are because God wanted the best for his people. He simply could not have asked them kindly to do what He wanted. People are stubborn, and back then the Israelites would not listen to reason. Therefore God had to become an angry cruel, almost merciless God to have them obey. He gave them chances.

Yeah, I would hope this discussion will not spin out of control. And I am thankful for the respect, and I respect you also. Just trying to help. ^.^

-Terywj

So, did God change his opinion? Since it was once alright to do those things (kill homosexuals, beat wives, beat/kill slaves), and it isn't anymore, did those things change from un-sinful to sinful? Doesn't seem like God would change his mind about sin.

This transition from old to new is one of many things that I do not understand.

CHEAP PEACH said:

So, did God change his opinion? Since it was once alright to do those things (kill homosexuals, beat wives, beat/kill slaves), and it isn't anymore, did those things change from un-sinful to sinful? Doesn't seem like God would change his mind about sin.

This transition from old to new is one of many things that I do not understand.

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Sin in God's eyes has been bad and forever will be since Satan. But it doesn't mean that those things have been good things. I honestly don't quite understand the entirety of it (I'm no expert, no scholar) but all Christians believe He was like this for a reason. That was for the Israelites.

Yes, the transition is definitely something non-Christians see as weird / hard to understand, but God is pretty much an entity that humanity cannot understand, but through the Bible and having a relationship with him we can try, one step at a time.

-Terywj

Terywj said:

Darn. I almost thought for sure they were from the Old Testament. Guess my Bible memorization is a bit shaky, haha.

But yes, those quotes do make God seem like an angry and cruel "identity." However, in reality, that's exactly what he was like in the Old Testament. He was pretty strict and harsh on the Israelites, even once telling them to obliterate an opposing city, leaving no one alive. Other cases of like sacrficie and other stuff like that. So I can see where you're coming from. But you must know that his actions and the impulses we get from that are because God wanted the best for his people. He simply could not have asked them kindly to do what He wanted. People are stubborn, and back then the Israelites would not listen to reason. Therefore God had to become an angry cruel, almost merciless God to have them obey. He gave them chances.

Yeah, I would hope this discussion will not spin out of control. And I am thankful for the respect, and I respect you also. Just trying to help. ^.^

-Terywj

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I was actually going to bring up the order to destroy the city.

I see what you mean, but I just have to question if it truly was the right thing for his people. It's just... by my own morals, I have a hard time supporting that kind of god.
Then there's the side of me that doesn't believe in a god at all. That side says "well, it wasn't god's order, it was the people's. They made that decision." That brings an entirely different argument to this, haha.

I need to get off for now, but no one let this degenerate into an angry flame war, or I'll be sooooper-angry >:[

Melomaniacal said:

The ones I (semi) quoted I believe were both from the New Testament. I have found a few similar verses in the New Testament, though.
It just seems to me like... for example, the bible says, very plainly, "it's okay to have a slave, and beat him to death." How many other meanings can that have?
I'm going to reiterate again (I really don't want anyone to get me wrong, here, haha) that I'm not accusing anyone of being racist, sexist, etc.

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I'd need to do more study, but I think the Israelite definition of a "slave" is different from ours, more like an indentured servant. Not quite sure on the beating him to death part.

It just seems to me that if someone created us to worship him... that displays some kind of desire to be worshiped, and thus some kind of human emotion. There are other examples that I don't have time to go into right now of cases that make god seem angry and whatnot (especially in the Old Testament).

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It's not so much a desire to worship Him, I think. I'll use my parental analogy again: parents (well most lol) don't want their kids to worship them, but rather to become successful. The reason it seems like God wants it to be pure obedience is because there's only one way to become like Him, or eternally successful.

Death by orgy? ...hm... I've heard of worse

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But what do you think about the bible verses that seem to plainly say "kill homosexuals"?

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See my response to CHEAP PEACH.

CHEAP PEACH said:

So, did God change his opinion? Since it was once alright to do those things (kill homosexuals, beat wives, beat/kill slaves), and it isn't anymore, did those things change from un-sinful to sinful? Doesn't seem like God would change his mind about sin.

This transition from old to new is one of many things that I do not understand.

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The Israelites of Moses's time were idiots and couldn't handle the proper freedom of decision making. As such, the Law of Moses, an incredibly strict doctrine of "this is right, this is wrong" was done with to demonstrate the Gospel. That's why so many things in the Old Testament are cut and dry, such as punishments for homosexuality.

When Christ came, he fulfilled the Law, doing away with the era of arbitrariness.

Also, God gives different commandments depending on the circumstances of his people, which is why some different commandments may differ during some times. However, the ultimate purpose has always remained the same.

Melomaniacal said:

I was actually going to bring up the order to destroy the city.

I see what you mean, but I just have to question if it truly was the right thing for his people. It's just... by my own morals, I have a hard time supporting that kind of god.
Then there's the side of me that doesn't believe in a god at all. That side says "well, it wasn't god's order, it was the people's. They made that decision." That brings an entirely different argument to this, haha.

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The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was called upon because there was so much sin God saw there, and he wanted it gone. It wasn't completely merciless, as he told Lot to abandon the cities with his wives and even gave Abraham a chance to save the city by his (Abraham's) own means. But he failed, so God went on with the destruction.

Well of course. If that's how you feel about God, then it would be redundant for you to believe in something like that.

-Terywj

IIRC, the old testament laws (e.g. the ones saying kill homosexuals and stuff) were pretty much nullified when Jesus came. I don't exactly remember why, cause it's been a while since I read the bible, but.... eh. something to that effect




What's interesting to me though is that Christians are the ones who usually get associated with the old testament laws and such (like in this blog, and pretty much every single debate about homosexuality/abortion/slavery/whatever). However, nobody ever says anything about Jews.
Judiasm follows the old testament a lot closer than Christianity does, since they don't believe in Jesus.
The really orthodox Jews still follow all those laws (such as only eating Kosher foods).



So just something to think about.... why is it usually only Christianity that gets mentioned?

It's cause if you say anything negative about Judaism, people think you're anti-semitic. And it's not cool to be anti-semitic. So don't talk about jews.

Things not religous people fail at seperating:
Christianity and Catholicism
Old Testament (B.C) and New Testament (A.D).

Oh yes please link to afforemented verses. And do include the chapter heading and include the 5 proceeding and subsequent verses.
And everything ook said is correct.

I just skimmed down, and I saw someone (cheap-peach maybe?) say something like "maybe God changed his mind?". "God", an omnipotent being who can do anything and knows all does not change his mind. He does not need to as he already knows what's going to be happening. In my opinion, "God's" opinion/mind did not change later on. That's always been a flaw that I've seen in the bible. I never understood how the bible portrays "God" as being almost ruthless (kind of like a painful love) in the old testament, then all of a sudden becomes kind and understanding in the new testament.

Melomaniacal said:

for example, the bible says, very plainly, "it's okay to have a slave, and beat him to death."

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Unless I am mistaken, it does not say it is okay to beat a slave to death. My class was talking about that the other day - when the Bible was written, slaves were treated very nicely, like a part of the family. They weren't racist and if a slave saved his money he could buy freedom.

About the homosexual stuff, that is from Leviticus if I remember correctly. That book is completely composed of (seemingly) strange laws like that. For instance, it talks about what to do if your neighbor steals your cattle. Those laws were for the Jews to follow under the "old deal". When Jesus came he basically got rid of all that. The Old testament books after Exodus shouldn't be read by a person who does not entirely understand Christianity imo because it is likely to trip you up. I'm not saying it should be "hidden" from new Christians, just that it is hard to understand and you have to know the right context of the writings.

REL38 said:

I'm a christian, but I don't see homosexuality as a sin. There never was a word for that in the original Hebrew text. Just two variations.

One was translated into "effeminate call boys", but the other wasn't able to be translated into anything. So they took the first and turned it into something similar, but not the same.

"homosexual" was the word.

I see that as translation fault so it's not set in stone if it's wrong since the other word has yet to be translated.


A lot of the stuff from Leviticus is cancelled out for whatever reason.

Beating your wife don't work since marriage is considered as 'becoming one flesh'.
So by biblical standards, beating your wife is like beating yourself up.

The love thy neighbor aspect cancels out violence and the like in general.

That type of stuff reflected the, so to speak, the worldly way of living. That was the norm back then.

"An eye for an eye"

None of the stuff in Leviticus is considered to be standards Christians should live by. They were considered laws, but of that of the government at that time.

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Why doesn't the acts of violence cancel out love thy neighbor?
As far as I'm concerned, the bible says both things. Love thy neighbor, but beat your slave. Almost like an exception.

But that's very interesting about the translations, I'll have to look into that more.

Man of Popsicle said:

Things not religous people fail at seperating:
Christianity and Catholicism
Old Testament (B.C) and New Testament (A.D).

Oh yes please link to afforemented verses. And do include the chapter heading and include the 5 proceeding and subsequent verses.
And everything ook said is correct.

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On slavery -
Old Testament:
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:20-21 (<-- interesting one)

New Testament:
Ephesians 6:5-9
Colossians 3:22-25
Titus 2:9-10,15

On homosexuality -
New Testament:
Romans 1:26-27

Not as violent as the old testament, true.
My main point is that slavery seems okay, and homosexuality is completely wrong (deserving of punishment).


But maybe I should change this to not just Christians, but the bible in general. Originally I was going to direct this to religion in general, but it ended up being entirely about either Christianity or just the bible.

Terywj said:

However, God did not have emotion so that we may worship him, but MADE us to worship him. Of course, we are lacking in comprehension of God, so it's true we can't quite understand how God has emotion. But we Christians exist for the sole purpose of glorifying the Father, and spreading the word.

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This is something I've never understood about Christianity. Christians speak of their religion giving them "purpose", and they speak of drawing "fulfillment", "meaning", and "comfort" from this "purpose"; however, when asked what their "purpose" is, they reply with an answer similar to the quote above.

My question is this:

How is that comforting or fulfilling in any way?

You were made for no other reason than to worship and adore God? So, the sole purpose of your life is to essentially sit around and tell God how awesome he is and to tell other people that they should also tell God how awesome he is? Perhaps I'm not looking at this correctly, but that seems like the most depressing realization that any human being could ever experience.

You exist solely for the purpose of being a sycophant, and you draw comfort from that fact?

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way; I simply do not understand how that idea is supposed to provide comfort or fulfillment. Is there more to the concept than I'm aware of; some sort of uplifting and inspiring insight?

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, it most certainly wasn't without mercy. For the sake of 10 good people, the two cities would be spared. But the city was so full of sin (like trying to **** two of God's messengers) that not even 10 people could be found. Just 4.

ook said:

IIRC, the old testament laws (e.g. the ones saying kill homosexuals and stuff) were pretty much nullified when Jesus came. I don't exactly remember why, cause it's been a while since I read the bible, but.... eh. something to that effect




What's interesting to me though is that Christians are the ones who usually get associated with the old testament laws and such (like in this blog, and pretty much every single debate about homosexuality/abortion/slavery/whatever). However, nobody ever says anything about Jews.
Judiasm follows the old testament a lot closer than Christianity does, since they don't believe in Jesus.
The really orthodox Jews still follow all those laws (such as only eating Kosher foods).



So just something to think about.... why is it usually only Christianity that gets mentioned?

It's cause if you say anything negative about Judaism, people think you're anti-semitic. And it's not cool to be anti-semitic. So don't talk about jews.

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lol, I like this post. The Old Testament wasn't completely nullified, it's still a great guideline and an amazing history book, but the New Testament (promise) is what you really need to pay attention to as far as how to act toward God and other people. Jesus came and acted as the perfect sacrifice, meaning that he'll take the full brunt of a person's sins as long as that person looks at what Jesus said and attempts to follow it (as a whole, without picking and choosing).

What this means is that salvation is completely up to God (through Jesus), and that humans have almost no place in judgement against each other. Granted, we need judges for order, but it's not really our decision to belittle, kill, or ignore other people. We just need to spread the Good News and be friendly. God will take whatever action he finds appropriate.

Do you kind of see what we think? I'm not saying you should accept it. However, picking and choosing bits doesn't work quite as well as it may appear. You need to understand that the Old Testament was a temporary promise intended to assist people until the Messiah came and a more permanent promise could be set in place. This permanent promise is the New Testament. But you can't just look at the New Testament because it has basis in the Old. You can't understand the need for a Savior without knowing that we fell into sin from perfection. If we didn't originally sin, then we're not doing anything wrong and don't need a Savior. The two go hand in hand, and they each have their place.

As for the comfort: God could have given us no free will. Or never made us. Or made our life worse. Or never given us a chance at redemption. But he did. And for that we thank him. He made us to glorify him. But not glorifying him we disobey him and thus sin. Really, it's not as bad as it seems. But doing it because another person made you certainly won't help anyone, and I won't advise that anyone do that.

On the Exodus passage, it's saying don't kill your slaves. Is that bad? Not really. The second part is talking about how the Israelites (Descendants of Jacob also known as Israel) sold themselves and their land to the Egyptians, when they lost everything else they had to sell, in order to get food for the famine. The land was given to Pharaoh and the Israelites were allowed to work on it as his servants in exchange for food. But they also owed Pharaoh 1/5 of anything made from the land.

tl;dr It's not as bad as it seems. Not as simple and condemning as Christians sometimes seem to make it, but not as evil and two-faced as everyone else seems to make it. To understand it I'd suggest reading through the entire Bible. Or at least doing more research than reading blogs and going to church. Again, not pushing anything. Just explaining.

Disclaimer: I'm agnostic, and an ex-atheist. I'm not so big on that whole "certainty" thing. But I write this as if God exists, because it helps make my point come across more clearly than having lots of "If God existed..." statements cluttering things up.

Something that always bothered me about Christianity was what I see as God's hypocrisy in giving us free will. He has supposedly given us free will, and yet demands that we must live to serve and worship him. Once someone actually uses their free will and decides not to worship him, they are lost unless they repent. But why should they be punished for using what God gave them?

I can see how a believer would find it comforting that they were created with a purpose by God, and that this purpose is to worship he who gave them everything. But for me, the idea that my only purpose is to worship a God who has apparently created me in such a way that I cannot bring myself to believe in him is not comforting at all. God created in me a nonbeliever, and apparently demands that I go against my beliefs and worship him anyway. But he knows that I don't believe, because he is omnipotent. Thus, his requirement of faith for salvation brings me no comfort, as it is a requirement I am unable to fulfill.

I also find it incredibly hard to fathom how a God who has created this universe, on a scale of at least 10s of billions of light-years across, with tens of thousands of galaxies in every tiny speck of the sky, and millions of stars in each of those galaxies, can be so concerned with the minutiae of every human's daily life, sexual habits, methods of worship, and possession of certain regions of land. It just does not compute for me. I kind of wish it did. The idea of a loving God is rather comforting, knowing that at least someone cares all of the time and is watching.

Also, kudos to this thread for staying sane. I'm very impressed, especially considering past experiences here and elsewhere.

ook said:

IIRC, the old testament laws (e.g. the ones saying kill homosexuals and stuff) were pretty much nullified when Jesus came. I don't exactly remember why, cause it's been a while since I read the bible, but.... eh. something to that effect




What's interesting to me though is that Christians are the ones who usually get associated with the old testament laws and such (like in this blog, and pretty much every single debate about homosexuality/abortion/slavery/whatever). However, nobody ever says anything about Jews.
Judiasm follows the old testament a lot closer than Christianity does, since they don't believe in Jesus.
The really orthodox Jews still follow all those laws (such as only eating Kosher foods).



So just something to think about.... why is it usually only Christianity that gets mentioned?

It's cause if you say anything negative about Judaism, people think you're anti-semitic. And it's not cool to be anti-semitic. So don't talk about jews.

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This, it always bugged me how people instantly go for Christianity when it comes to the bible, ignoring the fact that the Jewish people follow the Old Testament extremely closely. And no, I'm not anti-Semitic, one of my closest friends is Jewish.

Anyway, I'm surprised in how tame this thread is, especially for a religious discussion.

If I had the time, I'd really like to learn Hebrew and read the Old and New Testament in their original language. I believe that something is always lost in translation, and the best way to get the message of something is the read the original version.

finalark said:

If I had the time, I'd really like to learn Hebrew and read the Old and New Testament in their original language. I believe that something is always lost in translation, and the best way to get the message of something is the read the original version.

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You'd have to learn Greek for the NT, and there's two forms of it used too

The key thing about homosexuality when its involved is the life style. AKA...well hopefully you get the picture.

A year ago my C.E(religion) Teacher had a lesson on tolerance. We soon got on the discussion of homosexuality. Of course, we were told that Catholics don't hate Homosexuals. No, some times the best Catholic can be a Homosexual. What the church had a problem was the life style. Homosexuals...to put it nicely, tend to do what the body wasn't made for. Of course this goes against the "my body is a temple for Jesus".

I mean we had some obvious Gay's come to my church, they didn't get kicked out or anything because they weren't going out and sodomizing and stuff.

Just remember that in the bible, Homosexuality=Sodomy.

Eyada said:

This is something I've never understood about Christianity. Christians speak of their religion giving them "purpose", and they speak of drawing "fulfillment", "meaning", and "comfort" from this "purpose"; however, when asked what their "purpose" is, they reply with an answer similar to the quote above.

My question is this:

How is that comforting or fulfilling in any way?

You were made for no other reason than to worship and adore God? So, the sole purpose of your life is to essentially sit around and tell God how awesome he is and to tell other people that they should also tell God how awesome he is? Perhaps I'm not looking at this correctly, but that seems like the most depressing realization that any human being could ever experience.

You exist solely for the purpose of being a sycophant, and you draw comfort from that fact?

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way; I simply do not understand how that idea is supposed to provide comfort or fulfillment. Is there more to the concept than I'm aware of; some sort of uplifting and inspiring insight?

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We see it as we are there to worship the Lord. Okay so it does not exactly sound amazing and whatever, but God is glorious. He is the greatest being and will forever be. He (in the form of Jesus) saved us from our sins, so what could we as weak humans possibly do in thanks? There is only one answer, the call to worship.

I hope I'm not being viewed as like...rude or something. Please don't take me the wrong way.

-Terywj

Wow. Fancy answers everyone. I'd say that if your going to be religious then you'd better be hardcore or not at all. This isn't to anyone in general. More like to everyone.

Here's what I never understood, if God doesn't condone homosexuality, why does he allow people to be born this way?

godsmith2 said:

Here's what I never understood, if God doesn't condone homosexuality, why does he allow people to be born this way?

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In my opinion people choose to be homosexual and what not...

Also, some of the aforementioned slave beatings may not have been straight from god. Keep in mind the bible is a series of historical documents, so one of the writers may have found that acceptable at the time.

AtotheZ said:

In my opinion people choose to be homosexual and what not...

Also, some of the aforementioned slave beatings may not have been straight from god. Keep in mind the bible is a series of historical documents, so one of the writers may have found that acceptable at the time.

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What's more likely is that the original meaning was changed during translation, and that given a few words to choose from the translator chose what made most sense to him/her, which would probably be what the culture was saying at the time.

God, there is just so much ****** in this thread I can't even stand it.

EDIT:

AtotheZ said:

In my opinion people choose to be homosexual and what not...

Also, some of the aforementioned slave beatings may not have been straight from god. Keep in mind the bible is a series of historical documents, so one of the writers may have found that acceptable at the time.

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Oh god, especially you. Why the **** would anyone ever choose to be gay over being straight. Homosexuals learn to accept their sexuality, but I can't imagine anyone would choose it.

Teranosaurus Rex said:

I will keep this open.

Any "lol religion sux and they all dumb" and "accept the word of Christ or burn in hell" will cause me to lock this thread.

Also no flaming/trolling or the same thing will happen.

Otherwise, discuss away.

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§witch said:

God, there is just so much ****** in this thread I can't even stand it.

EDIT:


Oh god, especially you. Why the **** would anyone ever choose to be gay over being straight. Homosexuals learn to accept their sexuality, but I can't imagine anyone would choose it.

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.....

Anyways, that argument isn't enough to rebut AtotheZ's statement. You may be right, but the argument you presented doesn't really achieve anything at all.

I'll use an allegory. If I really like asparagus and I dislike potatoes, I would eat asparagus. If I didn't care about what other's thought about me eating asparagus, why on earth wouldn't I choose to keep eating asparagus? I wouldn't mope around, asking myself "Why can't I like potatoes, dammit!?".

What I'm trying to say is that if one considered homosexuality and heterosexuality of equal morality, there is no reason to not choose homosexuality. You can't assume that you know that everyone would like potatoes and not asparagus just because you like one or the other.

Please don't respond if you can't be civil.

Melomaniacal said:

The ones I (semi) quoted I believe were both from the New Testament.

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The passage about homosexuals in Leviticus was in the Old Testament.
However, the bit about submissive slaves was, admittedly, from Titus, in the New Testament. It could be an allusion to how we, the Christians, should be submissive to our master, the Lord.

Despite my unwavering belief in Christianity, I do not go without questions. Why does God allow us to sin? Why does God put us on Earth instead of in Heaven? Why hasn't God already defeated the Devil? There are a thousand questions I don't know the answers to. Perhaps I should take it up with my pastor?

Why does God allow us to sin?

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From my understanding, God doesn't allow us to sin. We do. We were given free will. With out free will, that would make us dogs in the eye's of God. He let us choose to worship him or not. That then branches off to sin and the works.

Why does God put us on Earth instead of in Heaven?

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According to the Old testament, Earth was a paradise. Heaven is also a place for beings with out a body or some thing like that.

Why hasn't God already defeated the Devil?

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Perhaps God wanted the devil to be a example to all. Honestly all the devil wanted was realm to rule over, and he got what he wanted. A realm to rule over AKA Hell.

Perhaps I should take it up with my pastor?

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Do it, you can't imagine how open they'll be.

Only stopping by (have to leave in, like, 10 seconds) to mention something:

§witch said:

God, there is just so much ****** in this thread I can't even stand it.

EDIT:


Oh god, especially you. Why the **** would anyone ever choose to be gay over being straight. Homosexuals learn to accept their sexuality, but I can't imagine anyone would choose it.

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No more of this. Seriously, if it gets any worse, I'm getting the thread locked.

Stay calm and relaxed, please.

Darkslash said:

From my understanding, God doesn't allow us to sin. We do. We were given free will. With out free will, that would make us dogs in the eye's of God. He let us choose to worship him or not. That then branches off to sin and the works.

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This brings up the age-old debate of predestination; although we make "choices," what God wants to happen, will happen.

Darkslash said:

According to the Old testament, Earth was a paradise. Heaven is also a place for beings with out a body or some thing like that.

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Again, the issue of why God allows us to sin, as that is why the Earth was tainted, comes up.
Heaven is not a place for beings without a body; it even says in the Bible that are bodies are changed and made perfect, we still have them.

Darkslash said:

Perhaps God wanted the devil to be a example to all. Honestly all the devil wanted was realm to rule over, and he got what he wanted. A realm to rule over AKA Hell.

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Did God also want him to be a temptation? Something to taint his once perfect creation?
If the Devil got what he wanted, then why does he still fool with us, here on Earth?

Darkslash said:

Do it, you can't imagine how open they'll be.

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I might.