Aura Sphere Priority Project

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 26, 2009

Aura Sphere is a unique projectile in Brawl where its priority increases the more Lucario takes a beating. So, how do we transition this into useful data? That's where something like this comes in. This thread is for the purpose of keeping track of these things on a somewhat comprehensive level.

Meta Knight's Mach Tornado loses to a 10% Aura Sphere.

Well without further ado here's Aura Sphere data vs. Snake:

What surprised me the most was Snake was getting hit out of Cypher by a dinky, 7% Aura Sphere o.O. Also, we finally have data on making them 'nades explode, so huzzah. Due to diminishing returns 12% is good to know because you'll be able to force them to explode even if you already hit Snake with an Aura Sphere. Pretty useful info, if I do say so myself...

I still got more to do on Snake, but this will give you guys a basic idea of what we will need and if you want to help out that'd be wonderful. Please let us know here or on AiB if you're going to test a character.

How to help test:
1. Go to Training mode.
2. Select Lucario as the CPU (easier to control his Aura boost then).
3. Use this to calculate Aura Sphere boosts http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png
4. Report back here with what you find and congrats, you've contributed to the metagame.

Credit to John12346 to help calculate Snake's Ftilt and Utilt.

And here's his original post with some unsorted data on AiB:

John12346 said:
Assuming no decay and Fully Charged Aura Spheres:

Lucario at 58% beats Snake Ftilt hit 1
Lucario at 79% beats Snake Ftilt hit 2
Lucario at 117% beats Snake Utilt
Lucario at 39% beats MK's Dash Attack
Lucario at 0% beats MK's Tornado
Lucario at 155% beats MK's Tornado with BAS
Lucario at 104% beats MK's Glide Attack
Note: Due to all of Meta-Knight's other 'A move' attacks having laser priority, Aura Sphere will go through everything else, even if Lucario's at 0% and uses a BAS
Lucario can't beat GaW's FSmash
Lucario at 142% beats GaW's Dsmash
Lucario at 0% beats the Turtle

______________________________________________

Yay projectile spam.

Assuming no decay and FCAS every time.
Also assuming that item throws are forward smash throws.

Beats = Goes through the projectile and cancels it out.
Goes through = Both projectiles pass each other without clashing.
Can't Beat = Lucario's 170% FCAS clashes and cancels with the opposing projectile without going through it.
.
.
.
.
.
29% beats Mario's Fireball.
0% beats Mario's FLUDD shot. (Not BAS)

39% beats Luigi's Fireball.

46% beats Peach's =) Turnip.
46% beats Peach's -.- Turnip.
46% beats Peach's ^o^ Turnip.
46% beats Peach's O.O Turnip.
89% beats Peach's >.o Turnip.
Can't beat Peach's stitchface Turnip.

0% beats Bowser's Flame Breath.

0% beats Diddy's Peanut Popgun.
Goes through Diddy's Bananas.

58% beats Yoshi's Egg. (assuming normal throw)

88% beats Wario's Tires. (big and small)

0% beats Link's uncharged Arrows.
104% beats Link's fully charged Arrows.
0% beats Link's Boomerang.
Can't beat Link's Bombs.

46% beats Zelda's small Din's Fire.
123% beats Zelda's big Din's Fire.

Goes through Shiek's Needles.

0% beats Toon Link's uncharged Arrows.
104% beats Toon Link's fully charged Arrows.
58% beats Toon Link's Boomerang.
Can't beat Toon Link's Bombs.

0% beats Samus' uncharged Charge Shots.
Can't beat Samus' fully charged Charge Shots. (although I have beaten it when I was at a stock disadvantage)
29% beats Samus' Homing Missile.
79% beats Samus' Super Missile.

0% beats ZSS' uncharged Paralyzer.
39% beats ZSS' fully charged Paralyzer.

29% beats Pit's uncharged Arrows.
91% beats Pit's fully charged Arrows.

Can't beat IC's Ice Shot.
Goes through IC's Blizzard.

Goes through ROB's Laser.
Can't beat fully charged Gyro. (haven't tested uncharged, sorry)

Goes through Kirby's Final Cutter.

Goes through Olimar's grab; can't beat any other disjointed attack.

Goes through Fox's Laser.

Goes through Falco's Laser.

Goes through Wolf's Laser.

29% beats Pikachu's Thundershock.

0% beats Squirtle's Water Gun. (Not BAS)

58% beats Ivysaur's Razor Leaf.

0% beats Charizard's Flamethrower.

Can't beat Ness' PK Fire. (bolt, not pillar)
58% beats Ness' PK Thunder.

Can't beat Lucas' PK Fire.
79% beats Lucas' PK Thunder.

0% beats GaW's Chef.

Can't beat Snake's Nikita.
Not going into the rest of Snake's projectiles; MythTrainer's got dis.

0% beats Sonic's Spring. (pointless)

Also, Ruined recently posted this on AiB:

Ruined said:
So I made a few mistakes with my last list(mostly with marth >_> )but I think I've correct all of those now. I added a few moves, and characters, and removed some moves that I couldn't figure out. Also added what damage aura sphere needs to do in the parentheses.

Wario:
fair:58(17)
bair:79(19)
ftilt:117(22)
fsmash:never

Falco:
Fsmah:79(19)
bair:117(22)
dair:117(22)
usmash:129(23)

DDD:
ftilt:39(15)
dtilt:79(19)
utilt:104(21)
bair:117(22)
fair:142(24

Diddy:
fsmash, first hit:29(14)
dtilt:49(16)
Side-b:79(19)
ftilt:91(20)
fsmash, second hit:117(22)
fair:129(23)
dsmash:155(25)

G&W:
dtilt:68(18)
ftilt:79(19)
dair:117(22)
fair:155(25)
usmash:never

ROB:
dsmash:29(14)
ftilt:39(15)
fair:79(19)
nair:79(19)
bair:91(20)

Marth:
ftilt, non-tipped:68(18)
nair, non-tipped:68(18)
dtilt, non-tipped:68(18)
utilt, non-tipped:68(18)
dtilt, tipped:79(19)
fair, non-tipped:91(20)
ftilt, tipped:104(21)
fair, tipped:117(22)
fsmash, non-tipped:129(23)
fsmash, tipped:never

IC:
dtilt:39(15)
ftilt:68(18)
bair:91(20)
dsmash:104(21)
fsmash:117(22)

Pikachu:
dtilt:49(16)
skullbash, uncharged:58(17)
ftilt:68(18)
nair:104(21)
dair:104(21)
usmash:117(22)
fsmash:129(23)
fully charged skullbash:never

DK:
dtilt:58(17)
utilt:68(18)
ftilt, non-angled:79(19)
ftilt, up angled:104(21)
bair:117(22)
uair:129(23)
dsmash:167(26)?
fsmash:never

Peach:
bair, weak hit:49(16)
nair, weak hit:91(20)
ftilt:91(20)
nair, strong hit:117(22)
bair, strong hit:129(23)
fair:142(24)

Toon link:
dsmah, first hit:49(16)
dtilt:68(18)
ftilt:68(18)
utilt:68(18)
fsmash, first hit:79(19)
bair:79(19)
dsmash, second hit:91(20)
fair:117(22)
fsmahs, second hit:117(22)
usmash:142(24)
dair:155(25)

ZSS:
dair:29(14)
dtilt:39(15)
ftilt:39(15)
nair:79(19)
fsmash:91(20)
bair:117(22)

Kirby:
dtilt:39(15)
utilt:49(16)
ftilt:58(17)
bair:104(21)
dsmash:129(23)
fsmash:142(24)
usmash:142(24)

Luigi:
side-b, uncharged:29(14)
nair:39(15)
dtilt:68(18)
utilt:68(18)
ftilt:79(19)
dair:91(20)
bair:104(21)
fsmash:129(23)
side-b, fully charged:never

Pit:
fsmash, first hit:49(16)
dsmash:91(20)
dtilt:91(20)
ftilt:104(21)
dair:104(21)
fsmash, second hit:104(21)
fair:117(22)
bair:142(24)

Note: Ruined's data is all fully charged Aura Spheres. I will transition this to exact AS damage percents later, so it'll be easier to keep track of as well.

Hey guys, are we starting to notice some interesting things here? No? Well anyways...
A 22% (min 117% full charge, no decay) Aura Sphere will just beat Snake's Utilt, Dedede's Bair, Falco's Dair and Bair, Pikachu's Usmash, and Ice Climbers' Fsmash.

WakerofWinds · Sep 26, 2009

Are these Aura Spheres BAS or FCAS?

Other than that this is interesting stuff.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 27, 2009

I've been working on Link's exact projectile % when Lucario will beat them out.

Way back when I did this with Peach and got the exact % for each turnip and the other stuff she can pull out. I'll see if I can find it.

edit: Found the old post.
Peach's Turnips

Normal: 45%
Stitichy: Never

Other items:
Beam Sword: 140%
Mr. Saturn: 20%

I'll retest Peach and do Link.

tedward2000 · Sep 27, 2009

MTI, This is good stuff!
You havent been here long and already steaming through.
My question is the same as Winds though, you talking about AS or BAS? (im assuming AS cause I really dont expect BAS to out-prioritize some of that stuff)

And secondly, your planning on doing this for all characters right?
-t2

Linkshot · Sep 27, 2009

I'm totally keeping track of this thread.

Finally, the Luc boards are doing something useful XD

Also, what about get-up attacks?

Aurasmash14 · Sep 27, 2009

*jaw drops* Holy ****. When you said in your PM it would be great if lucario mastered priority play i had no idea you were serious.. nice thread dude. just make sure it doesnt end up like the punishing guide though. concentrate on important characters. the punishing guide was a tad too ambitious for its own good.

iRJi · Sep 27, 2009

Aurasmash14 said:
*jaw drops* Holy ****. When you said in your PM it would be great if lucario mastered priority play i had no idea you were serious.. nice thread dude. just make sure it doesnt end up like the punishing guide though. concentrate on important characters. the punishing guide was a tad too ambitious for its own good.

I hope you do know that the punishing guide was only meant for characters that was even or us losing. lol.

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 27, 2009

Glad you guys like this. Oh and yeah uncharged = BAS and Max Charge = FCAS.

And yeah keeping track of get-up attacks, ledge attacks, and >100% ledge attacks would be useful...

I plan on doing this for all characters, but chances are without help this will go at a snail's pace.

DusK-The-Stray · Sep 27, 2009

I'd gladly start helping out with this, but... I honestly don't know how to go about this

Very sorry, really, but would you mind explaining this to me thoroughly? Maybe then I can help out.

Degyn Sefer · Sep 27, 2009

i want to help out to ^^

MythTrainerInfinity · Sep 28, 2009

Here's how to do this detailed version:

1. Go to Training mode, pick the character that will be tested as the player, and select Lucario as the CPU (easiest way to control his percents).
2. Refer to the Aura Damage Chart for the Aura Sphere growth rates (I made a mistake and 63%, not 62% is the 7% damage mark for the BAS). This way you'll be able to keep track of growth rates and test them without letting them get stale in Training Mode.
3. Pick your stage, adjust Lucario's damage accordingly, and go for it.
4. If you have Excel (if not another spreadsheet program or a word processor will do, but do your best to keep it organized) try to do a similar format to what I've done for Snake and keep in mind some moves will have oddities...
5. If you do have Excel or something and can get it organized like how I did the Aura growth chart and Aura Sphere vs. Snake's thing take a screenshot, open up Paint, crop it, and save (preferably in .PNG or .GIF).
6. If you did save an image go to http://imageshack.us and upload it, then copy the direct link with tags and post it here.

Note: I used mostly fully charged Aura Spheres or uncharged Aura Spheres to gauge its priority. Use your best judgment in this (you know Snake's Utilt isn't going to get out prioritized by a BAS, so obviously it would need to be charged).

If we could have people claiming certain characters to investigate that'd be a lil' more organized than simply looking into certain annoying attacks.

Linkshot · Sep 28, 2009

I propose we pull up a Google Spreadsheet for the Lucario boards to all work on simultaneously.

A2ZOMG · Sep 28, 2009

Any attack that does enough damage in one hit will outprioritize a projectile. An attack only has to be within about I forget, 8-9% of the projectile's damage to cancel it out.

A lot of charged smashes will do the trick, not to mention Link's Down-air and Ganon's F-air even when Lucario has high damage.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 28, 2009

MythTrainerInfinity said:
If we could have people claiming certain characters to investigate that'd be a lil' more organized than simply looking into certain annoying attacks.

I'll post later today on the specifics of Peach's turnips and Link's Projectiles.

Link's Boomerang is acting weird and clashes sometimes yet loses out at other times depending on minor height differences.

Zori · Sep 28, 2009

Olimars ftilt > As

Aurasmash14 · Sep 28, 2009

Zori said:
Olimars ftilt > As

Well Pikmin do tend to outprioritze energy projectiles >_>

Linkshot · Sep 28, 2009

fTilt is Nullimar's kick, actually.

Nullimar has insane priority wtf

John12346 · Sep 28, 2009

Yeah, okay.

John12346 said:
Yay projectile spam.

Assuming no decay and FCAS every time.
Also assuming that item throws are forward smash throws.

Beats = Goes through the projectile and cancels it out.
Goes through = Both projectiles pass each other without clashing.
Can't Beat = Lucario's 170% FCAS clashes and cancels with the opposing projectile without going through it.
.
.
.
.
.
29% beats Mario's Fireball.
0% beats Mario's FLUDD shot. (Not BAS)

39% beats Luigi's Fireball.

46% beats Peach's =) Turnip.
46% beats Peach's -.- Turnip.
46% beats Peach's ^o^ Turnip.
46% beats Peach's O.O Turnip.
89% beats Peach's >.o Turnip.
Can't beat Peach's stitchface Turnip.

0% beats Bowser's Flame Breath.

0% beats Diddy's Peanut Popgun.
Goes through Diddy's Bananas.

58% beats Yoshi's Egg. (assuming normal throw)

88% beats Wario's Tires. (big and small)

0% beats Link's uncharged Arrows.
104% beats Link's fully charged Arrows.
49% beats Link's Boomerang. (when first thrown/Thx, Red Ryu)
0% beats Link's Boomerang. (as it slows down)
Can't beat Link's Bombs.

46% beats Zelda's small Din's Fire.
123% beats Zelda's big Din's Fire.

Goes through Shiek's Needles.

0% beats Toon Link's uncharged Arrows.
104% beats Toon Link's fully charged Arrows.
58% beats Toon Link's Boomerang. (thrown straight forward)
Can't beat Toon Link's Bombs.

0% beats Samus' uncharged Charge Shots.
Can't beat Samus' fully charged Charge Shots. (although I have beaten it when I was at a stock disadvantage)
29% beats Samus' Homing Missile.
79% beats Samus' Super Missile.

0% beats ZSS' uncharged Paralyzer.
39% beats ZSS' fully charged Paralyzer.

29% beats Pit's uncharged Arrows.
91% beats Pit's fully charged Arrows.

Can't beat IC's Ice Shot.
Goes through IC's Blizzard.

Goes through ROB's Laser.
Can't beat fully charged Gyro. (haven't tested uncharged, sorry)

Goes through Kirby's Final Cutter.

Goes through Olimar's grab; can't beat any other disjointed attack.

Goes through Fox's Laser.

Goes through Falco's Laser.

Goes through Wolf's Laser.

29% beats Pikachu's Thundershock.

0% beats Squirtle's Water Gun. (Not BAS)

58% beats Ivysaur's Razor Leaf.

0% beats Charizard's Flamethrower.

Can't beat Ness' PK Fire. (bolt, not pillar)
58% beats Ness' PK Thunder.

Can't beat Lucas' PK Fire.
79% beats Lucas' PK Thunder.

0% beats GaW's Chef.

Can't beat Snake's Nikita.
Not going into the rest of Snake's projectiles; MythTrainer's got dis.

0% beats Sonic's Spring. (pointless)

Linkshot · Sep 28, 2009

You should have had an "eaten by" category for projectiles with a hurtbox.

These are:

Mr. Saturn
Nikita
PK Fire (both)
Link bombs (both)
Gyromite
Pikmin
Ice Block
Bob-omb
Waddle Dee*
Waddle Doo*
* = Not actually a projectile

Information on these would be splendid:
Dotted Face Turnip
Beam Sword tosses
Morph Ball Bomb
Gordo
Grenades
Proximity Mine
Mortar
Cypher
Force Palm Flame
Required difference to beat another AS

Transcendent projectiles:
PKT1 Tail
PK Fire Pillars
Thunder
Impact Stars (Hip Drop attacks)
Morph Ball Bomb Explosion
Throw Lasers
Everything that AS "goes through" aforementionedly

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 28, 2009

John12346, Link's boomerang can clash with Auraspheres, it depends on elevation.

It's weird that it can get eaten up on FD but if Link is on Pokemon Stadium 1 it can clash.

John12346 · Sep 28, 2009

Red Ryu said:
John12346, Link's boomerang can clash with Auraspheres, it depends on elevation.

It's weird that it can get eaten up on FD but if Link is on Pokemon Stadium 1 it can clash.

Sorry, it didn't cross my mind. I just had both characters stand on a level playing field and fire at each other.

In any case, I'll update the data.

Linkshot · Sep 28, 2009

Is Gale Boomerang stronger or weaker on Pictochat? (not to derail the topic)

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 28, 2009

That's the weird thing and the main reason I can understand John listed it as 0%.

Some stages act weird for Boomerang and the angle in which you have to hit Aura sphere is screwy.

It can clash, but how you throw it and what elevation matters.

edit: Figured it out.

Link's Boomerang has more priority when he first throws it, 49% is the right number vs fully charged Aura spheres.

Linkshot · Sep 29, 2009

Yyyyyyyeaah. I figured there wasn't a height modifier, and I knew about the multiple hitboxes.

A2ZOMG · Sep 29, 2009

Hey, did anyone pay attention to the whole thing about how damage per hit = priority in this game?

Because you can probably save a lot of time by doing systematic mathematical analysis instead of testing on Training Mode.

Linkshot · Sep 29, 2009

Oddly enough, Aura only boosts the priority of Aura Sphere.

Regardless of the damage buff, every other move has the same priority. No clue how that works.

Aurasmash14 · Sep 29, 2009

Linkshot said:
Oddly enough, Aura only boosts the priority of Aura Sphere.

Regardless of the damage buff, every other move has the same priority. No clue how that works.

well we already have transcendant priority on the aura bursts. ot would be broken if priority on vulnerable hitboxes were increased as well.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 29, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Hey, did anyone pay attention to the whole thing about how damage per hit = priority in this game?

Because you can probably save a lot of time by doing systematic mathematical analysis instead of testing on Training Mode.

I actually used that to figure out the Boomerang issue.

I couldn't figure out why it had different priority at different stages until I realized it the damage the moves does decreases as it goes out farther.

A2ZOMG · Sep 30, 2009

Linkshot said:
Oddly enough, Aura only boosts the priority of Aura Sphere.

Regardless of the damage buff, every other move has the same priority. No clue how that works.

It's worthwhile to know damage changes when going up against other projectiles, and an increase in damage can make the difference between clanking and outright winning in close combat.

Kitamerby · Sep 30, 2009

Linkshot said:
Oddly enough, Aura only boosts the priority of Aura Sphere.

Regardless of the damage buff, every other move has the same priority. No clue how that works.

Technically, since the damage increases on all the other moves, the body-hitbox on all ground moves should also have a "priority" boost, allowing you to clank with moves that you couldn't clank with at 0...

phi1ny3 · Sep 30, 2009

Kita's got a point.
*sigh* I love having the best of both worlds for hitbox priority...

Linkshot · Sep 30, 2009

But, early on, didn't we determine that "No; Lucario only gets priority boost on Aura Sphere." or was that only for hitbox size?

Aurasmash14 · Oct 1, 2009

Kitamerby said:
Technically, since the damage increases on all the other moves, the body-hitbox on all ground moves should also have a "priority" boost, allowing you to clank with moves that you couldn't clank with at 0...

... seriously? i always thought lucario was gifted in priority because aura is transcendant. i didnt know body hitbox priority increases too......

MythTrainerInfinity · Oct 3, 2009

Small update:

10% and above Aura Spheres cling with Wario's FSmash. FCAS at max Aura will not beat it.
9% and lower get ourprioritized.

Linkshot · Oct 3, 2009

Don't forget about the Super Armor on it.

Kitamerby · Oct 3, 2009

Linkshot said:
But, early on, didn't we determine that "No; Lucario only gets priority boost on Aura Sphere." or was that only for hitbox size?

We only determined that the only priority boost worth even CONSIDERING at any point in time is Aura Sphere. The body box "priority" boost is just plain not worth ever relying on at any point ever.

Linkshot · Oct 3, 2009

There's still a boost, which means that, in turn, we should end up outprioritising certain attacks.

Kitamerby · Oct 3, 2009

Linkshot said:
There's still a boost, which means that, in turn, we should end up outprioritising certain attacks.

The boost isn't enough to outprioritize much of anything. It's still the same boost as the aura gets. It helps us randomly if we use usmash randomly and get fsmashed by marth, it may clank at high %, but that's about as good as it gets. We want to hit with the aura at all times, not the body box... unless we're doing some sort of weird mindgame with uair or the weird body hit of fsmash.

MythTrainerInfinity · Oct 4, 2009

Linkshot said:
Don't forget about the Super Armor on it.

If it clanks then there will be less concern for the SA, right?

Linkshot · Oct 4, 2009

Was just making sure that it was clanking and not just being soaked by Wario's ludicrously high Super Armor on fSmash.

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