SuSa's matchup thread (and redoing Ratios)

In other words, Snake is the Bowser of winning matchups.

Yay, we're finally being *******es and saying we **** some people.

Will edit soon with ratios. That is what we're doing here right?

Meta Knight 50:50
Snake - 50:50 I would honestly put like 57:43, but we're still not doing funky ratios right?
Wario - 55:45 Snake I don't really have any experience in this matchup.
Falco - 55:45 Snake
Diddy Kong - 50:50
King Dedede - 55:45 DDD
Marth - 55:45 Snake
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 55:45
Olimar - 50:50
Ice Climbers - 65:35 Snake
R.O.B. - 60:40 Snake
Kirby - 60:40 Too much ChuDat.
Lucario - 60:40 (maybe 55:45... still debating)
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 55:45 Snake
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 55:45 I blame boss.
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - 60:40 Snake
Bowser - 65:35 Snake
Zelda - 70:30 Snake
Squirtle - 60:40 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 65:35 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 70:30 Snake
Ness - 60:40 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake
Link - 65:35 Snake
Ganondorf - 80:20 Snake

I think many of the match up numbers that we had talked about in the beginning were skewed due to us not wanting to appear to be a rival to MK when they were discussing bans. On that same token, some character boards were being very generous in how they did vs MK, as well as how badly the match up was. Now that chapter of Smash has ended, so people are going to be more honest with their match up numbers.

I copy/pasted SuSa's list and left anything I don't have much of an opinion on alone

Meta Knight 55-45 MK (I don't think this ever changes)
Snake - 55:45 Port 4 (lol I'll agree with SuSa for the hell of it)
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 55:45 Snake (maybe even)
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake
King Dedede - 50:50
Marth - 55:45 Marth
Mr. Game & Watch - 65:35 Snake
Pikachu - 55:45 Snake(the CG may be overrated but I think pika is otherwise underrated on the whole, he's more than just a CG)
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake
R.O.B. - 55:45 Snake
Kirby - 65:35 Snake
Lucario - 60:40 Snake(not going for 65 but I think it's a little worse than 6:4 for luc)
Zero Suit Samus - 55:45 Snake
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 60:40 Snake(again a little higher IMO but I'm not going with 65)
Donkey Kong - 60:40 Snake
Peach - 65:35 Snake
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 55:45 Snake(I think Sonic beats Snake by options and will outhit him, but the weight and power differences are too much for Sonic to handle)
Sheik - 60:40 Snake
Bowser - 65:35 Snake
Zelda - 70:30 Snake
Squirtle - 55:45 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 70:30 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 60:40 Snake
Mario - 65:35 Snake
Ness - 55:45 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 65:35 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 60:40 Snake
Link - 65:35 Snake
Ganondorf - 90:10 Snake

Yeah none of his ground attacks are safe but Snake has pretty mediocre air defense so I don't really see that being a problem, but if you want to disregard my ratio that's fine, as I said it's almost totally theorycrafted.

SuSa said:

The videos were fail. :| I'll try to get some offline ones this weekend.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I watched like 30 seconds, saw like three dodges > ftilt work and closed it. I can see what you're talking about anyway, we only ranked it 5 points differently, some other ones I changed(like Ganondorf) were more extreme

A few things I am surprised to see on this list from SuSa.

1)Him admitting to the 55:45 Snake marker against Falco. (not 60-40)
2)Marth being the advantage in that match up.
3)Snake is a beast due to him having virtually no bad match-ups. (Not that Snake being a beast is anything knew to us xD)

My list I'll add up in a bit, really though, I do not see too many of these values being that far off from what everyone else has posted so far. We might only disagree on maybe like 5 points on certain match-ups.

About the snake dittos thing with Ftilt. I thought you had to make sure you Ftilted last.

Meta Knight 55-45 MK
Snake - 50:50 (Port priority really hasn't done much for me in terms of dittos 51:49 would be accurate if you included ports)
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 55:45 Snake
Diddy Kong - ?
King Dedede - 55-45 DDD
Marth - 55:45 Snake
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40 Snake
Pikachu - 60:40 Snake
Olimar - ?
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake
R.O.B. - ?
Kirby - 60:40 Snake
Lucario - ?
Zero Suit Samus - ?
Toon Link - ?
Pit - 55:45 Snake (Pit connect kill)
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake
Peach - ?
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - ?
Wolf - ?
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - ?
Bowser - 60:40 Snake
Zelda - 65:35 Snake
PT trainer - ?
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 60:40 Snake
Mario - 60-40 Snake
Ness - 60:40 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - ?
Captain Falcon - 65-35
Link - 60:40 Snake
Ganondorf - ?

A lot of these match-ups I just haven't played enough to give an accurate opinion on. Most that recieved a ? rating is because of projectile/speed problems I encounter with online play against that character. Projectiles I cannot easily PS makes the match-up much more hectic. And characters like Fox whose's running speed can occasionally get the better of you if you mess up timing (death from Upsmash happens often).

I suppose I'll throw in my 2 cents. There are a few matchups I have little to no tourney experience on, so those are marked with question marks.

Meta Knight 50:50 (Going with even for now as I don't think this matchup is anywhere near fully explored yet)
Snake - 55:45 Port 4 (I'll agree with this for now even if it sounds weird)
Wario - 55:45 Snake (I want to lean to 50:50, but Snake does have answers to a lot of Wario's moveset and can avoid his gimping)
Falco - 50:50 (I definitely believe this is an even and tough matchup)
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake (agree)
King Dedede - 55:45 DDD (I don't think it's 100% even, just 55:45 DDD)
Marth - 50:50 (I say it's dead even, though some are believing it's in Marth's favor now, I think there needs to be more input on this matchup)
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40 Snake (Agree, tough matchup for G&W)
Pikachu - 55:45 Snake (I worry that your lack of Pikachu aka Anther experience is clouding your judgment on this matchup)
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar (Agree, I would say it'd be more going towards 60:40 before it'd be 50:50 though)
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake (Agree, major bad matchup for ICs)
R.O.B. - 55:45 Snake (I'd say it's close to 60:40 Snake these days, but ROB is still too tricky to say 60:40 IMO)
Kirby - 60:40 Snake (Close to yours but 60:40 seems more reasonable, Kirby isn't exactly a huge pushover for Snake)
Lucario - ???? - Hard to say right now
Zero Suit Samus - 55:45 Snake (Not dead even IMO)
Toon Link - 55:45 Snake (Having some Jash and Melito experience, I don't think this is 60:40. Solid 55:45 IMO)
Pit - 55:45 Snake (Agree)
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake (Agree, still a tricky matchup)
Peach - 60:40 Snake (Agree here too)
Luigi - 60:40 Snake (Yup)
Fox - 60:40 Snake (Yea I'll agree with this for now)
Wolf - 60:40 Snake (Yup, lots of JJ experience)
Sonic - 60:40 Snake (Agree, Sonic has a real hard time killing Snake)
Sheik - ???? (60:40 Seems reasonable, I lack pro Sheik experience though)
Bowser - ???? (Vex says hi, 60:40 IMO though but no real experience outside of watching Vex beat good Snakes)
Zelda - 65:35 Snake (Ehhhh, a little too harsh on this one. I really don't see it being 70:30 I'd lean more towards 65:35)
Squirtle - ???? (Lack of experience)
Ivysaur - ???? Snake (Lack of experience)
Charizard - ???? Snake (Lack of experience)
Ike - 60:40 Snake (Agree)
Lucas - 65:35 Snake (Agree, grab release into free ftilts wins match easily)
Mario - 70:30 Snake (Seems reasonable)
Ness - ???? Snake (Yours was too close IMO, but I haven't played a Ness main in tourney in a while)
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake (Seems about right)
Samus - 60:40 Snake (Yup)
Jigglypuff - ???? Snake (Not much experience here, going to say I can agree)
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake (Yea easy matchup for sure)
Link - 65:35 Snake (Agree, I play SS's Link all the time)
Ganondorf - 80:20 Snake (I'll agree with this one)

Meta Knight 50:50
Snake - 50:50
Wario - 55:45
Falco - 55:45
Diddy Kong - 60:40
King Dedede - 45:55
Marth - 55:45 Snake
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 55:45
Olimar - 55:45
Ice Climbers - 65:35
R.O.B. - 60:40
Kirby - 60:40
Lucario - 60:40
Zero Suit Samus - 55:45
Toon Link - 60:40
Pit - 60:40
Donkey Kong - 60:40
Peach - 65:35 Snake
Luigi - 60:40
Fox - 65:35
Wolf - 60:40
Sonic - 70:30
Sheik - 65:35
Bowser - 70:30
Zelda - 75:25
Squirtle - 60:40
Ivysaur - 60:40
Charizard - 65:35
Ike - 75:25
Lucas - 75:25
Mario - 70:30
Ness - 65:35
Yoshi - 60:40
Samus - 65:35
Jigglypuff - 65:35
Captain Falcon - 100:0
Link - 75:25
Ganondorf - 100:0

Snake:Opponent, so no one gets confused

Meta Knight - 45:55 Thank god for grenades
Snake - 50:50 Port priority makes a difference, but not enough to warrant Snake being a Snake counter. That's just silly.
Wario - 50:50 or 55:45, can't decide
Falco - 55:45 Still being disputed I suppose
Diddy Kong - 55:45, barely
King Dedede - 50:50, extremely stage dependent. It could be anywhere from 40:60 to 55:45, depending on CPs and such
Marth - 50:50, I guess maybe 45:55
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40 although the only G+W in Colorado is the best player in my state and I hardly ever beat him >.>
Pikachu - 50:50, 45:55 if the Snake is uneducated about the buffered dthrow cg percentage window.
Olimar - 50:50, but I'm really unfamiliar with the MU.
Ice Climbers - 65:35
R.O.B. - 55:45
Kirby - 60:40
Lucario - 55:45 Yeah, I play a pretty good 'Cario pretty regularly, he can be a pain, not as clean-cut of a matchup as once thought
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50 Surprisingly difficult.
Toon Link - 60:40, Camp vs. camp
Pit - 55:45, More camp vs. camp
Donkey Kong - 55:45
Peach - 60:40, 55:45 potentially.
Luigi - 60:40, camp him to death and this matchup is cake.
Fox - 60:40, zomg blastur blows up nades br0ken
Wolf - 60:40
Sonic - 60:40
Sheik - 60:40
Bowser - 65:35
Zelda - 65:35
Squirtle - 60:40
Ivysaur - 65:35
Charizard - 65:35
Ike - 60:40
Lucas - 65:35
Mario - 60:40
Ness - 60:40
Yoshi - 60:40
Samus - 60:40
Jigglypuff - 75:25
Captain Falcon - 70:30
Link - 70:30
Ganondorf - 75:25

I don't even buy my own numbers, because according to them, we have one bad matchup.

Meta Knight 55:45 mk
Snake - 55:45 port 4
Wario - 50:50
Falco - 50:50
Diddy Kong - 50:50 (Get@me)
King Dedede - 55:45 DDD
Marth - 55:45 Snake
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 50:50
Olimar - 55:45 oli
Ice Climbers -60:40
R.O.B. - 55:45 rob
Kirby - 60:40
Lucario - 55:45
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50
Toon Link - 60:40
Pit - 50:50
Donkey Kong - 55:45
Peach - 65:35
Luigi - 60:40
Fox - 65:35
Wolf - 60:40
Sonic - 60:40
Sheik - 60:40
Bowser - 60:40
Zelda -60:40
Squirtle - 55:45
Ivysaur - 60:40
Charizard - 55:45
Ike - 60:40
Lucas - 60:40
Mario - 65:35
Ness - 55:45
Yoshi - 60:40
Samus - 60:40
Jigglypuff - 60:40
Captain Falcon - 7:3
Link - 60:40
Ganondorf - 7:3

the first thread may have been a little nice, but that doesn't mean you guys should up your matchup ratios by like 1 or 2 points just because you can. Any ridiculous claims that aren't obvious really should have an explanation by them, honestly.

I hope everyone posts their own opinions and doesn't just kinda follow the first post they see.

This is my opinion on the matchups, I was too lazy to help out with our matchup chart.

My chart is similar to most.

Meta Knight 55:45 MK
Snake - 50.000000000000000001:49.999999999999999999 Port 4
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 55:45 Snake (Close to 60:40, with good DI, Falco can have trouble getting the kill in. The only thing is that you`re pretty much stuck with a 50% handicap.)
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake (Second worst match-up, getting a lot better at it, and fast.)
King Dedede - 50:50
Marth - 50:50
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 60:40 Snake
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake
R.O.B. - 60:40 Snake
Kirby - 60:40 Snake
Lucario - 60:40
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50 (Without a doubt my worst match-up. I don`t know it at all. and I get ***** frequently because of it. I`m leaning towards 55:45 Snake though.)
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 60:40 Snake
Donkey Kong -60:40 Snake
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - 60:40 Snake (I don`t know this matchup. This is pretty much a guess.)
Bowser - 70:30 Snake
Zelda - 70:30 Snake
Squirtle - 70:30 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 70:30 Snake
Ness - 65-35 Snake
Yoshi - 65:35 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 80:20 Snake
Link - 65:35 Snake
Ganondorf - 85:15 Snake

Does this make you happy?
>Read the edit on the Snake ditto on my first post.<

SuSa said:

Want my answers?

I regularly beat Dao, the best overall placing Diddy in SoCal. ADHD, arguably the best Diddy Kong, says the matchup is 60:40. Most Diddy's say it's 55:45 or 60:40. I also beat Lazee at Active. I regularly beat ItsWillYo.

Tell me what you feel is extreme and I'll give you the reasoning behind them.

Click to expand...

I think ADHD over exaggerates considering I think he beats every snake he comes across and is like 2-1 vs. ally and its always close. I dont know why he complains about it so much.

Player skill is most often the determining factor he may be the best diddy in SoCal but is he on your level? It probably is 55:45 but I'm too stubborn to recognize it. I'm probably just not playing good enough snakes? :/ I wasn't trying to point fingers at you, but gheb and someone else had some pretty extreme **** in their posts.

Edited my ratios after considering some games I played this morning against someone that mained the Kongs, you were right, DK can't do ****. Diddy I'm a little torn on, I still think he's pretty competitive with Snake on neutrals but his pool of counterpicks is really bad.

I am just wondering, what makes the Jiggs match-up so gRape?

Metatitan said:

Because jigglypuff is ****ing terrible and snake is really really great.

Click to expand...

I know that.

SuSa said:

ADHD, arguably the best Diddy Kong, says the matchup is 60:40.

Click to expand...

Actually he even said it's 65/35 and Gnes said it's somewhere between 6/4 and 65/35.

-NaPPy said:

is like 2-1 vs. ally and its always close.

Click to expand...

This is false.

If I'm not horibly wrong then ADHD has beaten Ally only once at SNES whereas Ally has beaten ADHD at Apex, Genesis, Got Milk?, some Virdian City tourney and the Gantlet tourney this weekend. It's about 5-1 Ally not 2-1.

Gheb_01 said:

Actually he even said it's 65/35 and Gnes said it's somewhere between 6/4 and 65/35.



This is false.

If I'm not horibly wrong then ADHD has beaten Ally only once at SNES whereas Ally has beaten ADHD at Apex, Genesis, Got Milk?, some Virdian City tourney and the Gantlet tourney this weekend. It's about 5-1 Ally not 2-1.

Click to expand...

at the most recent one adhd 3-0'd ally then went to game 5 next set and lost. At snes he beat him in 2 sets as well sooo

i dunno its something like um....4/5? I'm not exactly sure. But I just know that they're both on the same level and you dont go even with someone of that level in a matchup thats 6/4 or 65/35..lol

Ally doesnt fully know the matchup yet, though he is getting better at it. ADHD however has played the best snakes in the nation and gets regular practice with Anti. He's got it down.

But hey its only me and Wyatt that feel the matchup is that horrible, and Wyatts thoughts on ratios change in the blink of a tourney so.... ^_^

knowing the actual diddy and how he plays would make it alot easier if you guys play together alot.

I agree with the MK match up 50:50 (kinda) but I don't get the marth match up?

This is fun lol. Heres My list.
-------------------------------------------

Meta Knight 50:50
Snake - 50:50 (I wanna put like 51:49 Because of port is a REALLY SMALL advantage)
Wario - 50:50
Falco - 50:50
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake
King Dedede - 55: 45 D3 (If it's CO18 playing its 60:40)
Marth - 50:50
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40 Snake
Pikachu - 55:45 Snake
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake
R.O.B. - 50:50
Kirby - 55:45 Snake
Lucario - 55:45 Snake
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 60:40 Snake
Donkey Kong - 55:45/ 50:50 Snake if it is in his favor.
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 55:45 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 55:45 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - 60:40 Snake
Bowser - 60:40 Snake
Zelda - 60:40 Snake
Squirtle - 60:40 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 60:40 Snake
Ness - 60:40 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 75:25 Snake
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake
Link - 60:40 Snake
Ganondorf - 85:15 Snake

I like Princz's ratios a lot.

Just sayin'.

SuSa said:

Link - 65:35 Snake

Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with this. I don't know why I even believed what the Links said about this >_>