The beginning of the end - breaking the MK matchup

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

After losing to Tyrant again (this time, closer then ever) - I've decided it's time to break this matchup. I know MK is punishable, I just don't know with what quite yet.

This is going to be a guide, created by the entire Snake boards (or myself if you all don't want to help), and with testing with myself (both frame, and reaction based data) to find ways around what MK does and can do.

I will assume everyone knows MK's and Snake's movesets.

Snake Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242407

Meta Knight Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614

Now that we have the data, I (or we if you want to help) just need to start testing moves that are quick enough to punish MK's moves. (Assumed powershield, then assumed normal shield)

After we have what can punish what, I plan to move onto how to use grenades. And when to use grenades vs MK.

After the grenade game, I plan to go and test how to properly DI every single one of MK's moves to increase chances of survivability (Even if it puts you in a worse spot, if it avoids a followup that can KO you. That is ok.) --- You all need to get good at teching on reaction to being hit. If you are stage spiked, that's a potential win turned into a loss. Especially if you were at lower %'s.

The tidbit I learned is: So long as Snake is grounded, and on stage. He can give MK a hard time. No matter your %. (I've been living to 180-230% now thanks to teching stage spikes. Sadly, I've been getting gimped at 30-60% as well...)

After testing how to DI each move, I will make a list of moves that can beat tornado. When, how, and which is normally the best option.

I will then test how to handle MK's options from dthrow. To the point of where everyone should wreck the MK, even if you can't predict what they are going to do. (Also, if they roll towards the ledge. Don't ftilt them, it knocks them off and they don't get hit by the second ftilt. Instead, dtilt or utilt them. (Utilt only if they are in KO %'s)

Let's get to work.

Video thanks to Underload:

Powershielding dtilt and punishing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtN1IJcGQic\

SuSa said:

Scenario:
MK perfectly spaces a dtilt and you powershield it

Situation:
A) You were holding a grenade
B) You were not holding a grenade

IF Situation A:
Shield, walk away. You cannot ftilt. (If the dash attack turns out to be legit, then dash attack. Utilt and Dtilt may work as well. You'll have to hold lightly down for the dtilt, you have to do it from a STANDING position. Not a crouch.)

IF Situation B:
Shield drop and ftilt

Scenario:
MK perfectly spaces a dtilt and you normal shield it

Just walk away.....you MAY be able to grab them. I'm not sure

Click to expand...

napZzz · Oct 4, 2009

campy mk's are the toughest ones to go up against imo.

I'd help with this but I'm really bad at this matchup, or at least stayed away from it for awhile after I couldn't beat this one guys mk with snake xD

Hopefully you do get some stuff tho, it'd be nice to see snake taking down mk

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

Havok gives me more of a run for my money then M2K, DSF, and Tyrant.

I don't want to tell anyone how until we find ways around it. (Which, hopefully by the end of step 1 and 2 we have)

PS:
Havok plays "campy" in sorts, but I'm unable to beat his approaches. He approaches smarter then the other 3..... He's stupidly hard to play against.

Now then, I'm going to take a break then come back to this thread. >.< I'm tired.

RATED · Oct 4, 2009

I can help here: if u powershield the Dtilt and the Dsmash we can Ftilt them, if normal shield just get out(rolling away) of the Dtilt since u can't do anything if the MK spaces perfectly, if we normal shield the 1st first hit of Dsmash we can Ftilt but if the Dsmash is perfectly spaced and we normal shield only the 2nd hit there's nothing that we can do about it since they can dsmash us right away when we try to Ftilt.

if they shield the 1st first hit of Ftilt if we continue to the 2nd right away I am sure that they can UP B us Out of the Shield. ( so never continue the sequence if they shield)

if they dair camp and varies with nado, ur only hope is to get out with a well timed mortal slide or if they get too low jab to uptilt since they are in the air (assuming that u powershield the dair ). also if u expect the full hop (just when they start to dair camp) u can throw at them a autocancelled bair , but beware since if they expect this you will get tornadoed.

in tornado fact , we can DI up and mash the jump button to footstool and get out.

maybe today a video of me playing against a MK wouuld be uploaded from a tourney that happened yesterday.

I hope I helped.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

Cannot you just use light tossed grenades to deter air camping and tornado?

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

You can. Light toss it, if they continue to stay away. Jump at it, throw it over, and pull a grenade. Then light toss it. Repeat.

When they get closer, light toss. Back up, jump + normal toss (from B, not shield dropped)

Avoid shielding the dair camping, powershield it if you KNOW it will hit you for a fact. To much shielding (from your grenades and the dair) leads to you being whorenado'd forever.

Thanks for some of that data RATED. Nice to know that dtilt IS punishable. But is there any way we can OoS dair it? Havok likes to approach me with dtilt when I pull a grenade. If I shield and try to ftilt, I pick up the grenade. Which... I then get dtilted, tripped, grabbed, thrown, then I explode. :/

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

DTILT

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4

If I am reading this right, we have an 11 frame window to be able to jump OoS with Dair against Dtilt. Although, good luck getting it to work SuSa if it is spaced right. I'm thinking that it is still probably better to Ftilt punish it with a PS. If you do shield it just do as rated said and back up. Although, we have a dash attack that starts on frame 5. We have a -1 advantage from using dash attack on shield drop. Might that be a decent choice to punish dtilt considering it's range? And I believe there is a way to buffer the dash attack OoS.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

We'd have a -4 advantage, which means we'd need a perfectly buffered ftilt. (You have to count shield dropping, as I am pretty sure even on a powershield it takes 7 frames to drop a shield)

Dash attack MAY work. We can try that. (In fact, you could probably go into training mode. Space the MK perfectly, dtilt, have Snake powershield it, have MK hold shield during the dtilt, and try to dash attack the MK on right when you powershield it) The thing you are forgetting is that chances are we won't hit on frame 5. If we hit on frame 6, the MK may have shielded by then. If we hit on frame 7, we take a dtilt/clank with dtilt. (I would think take it)

I noticed something about MK:
All of his moves are faster then human reaction. Too bad nearly everyone can see them coming. xD wtf?

Eternal Yoshi · Oct 4, 2009

????
This is Snake's Dtilt data collected from Phantom Wings' PSA program.

Hitbox out: 6
Duration: 4
IASA frame: 36
Normal Hitlag and SDI potential.
Doesn't do extra shield damage.
Has no chance of tripping the victim.

Sorry for misreading that.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

36?

Is that MK's dtilt?

If so, whoever did the MK frame data did it wrong. <_<

If it's ours, I somehow skipped over 2 frames?

Hits on Frame: 6-8 < would be 6-10
Duration: 34 < would be 36

Eternal Yoshi · Oct 4, 2009

Wait wat? I misread that as Snake's dtilt. The data I have up there is for Snake's dtilt. sorry.

If you want I can do MK's dtilt with PSA.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

Would you?

It would let us know how accurate the MK frame data is.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

There should be more focus on the reaction aspect rather than the frame data aspect. Even though frame data is easier to gauge, the reaction time factor is much more present in an actual match.

My 1/2 cent, will contribute more later.

Eternal Yoshi · Oct 4, 2009

MK's dtilt data

Hitbox comes out:3
Duration: 2
IASA: 16
All hitboxes have a 30% chance of tripping.
Normal hitlag and SDI potency.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

SuSa said:
We'd have a -4 advantage, which means we'd need a perfectly buffered ftilt. (You have to count shield dropping, as I am pretty sure even on a powershield it takes 7 frames to drop a shield)

Dash attack MAY work. We can try that. (In fact, you could probably go into training mode. Space the MK perfectly, dtilt, have Snake powershield it, have MK hold shield during the dtilt, and try to dash attack the MK on right when you powershield it) The thing you are forgetting is that chances are we won't hit on frame 5. If we hit on frame 6, the MK may have shielded by then. If we hit on frame 7, we take a dtilt/clank with dtilt. (I would think take it)

I noticed something about MK:
All of his moves are faster then human reaction. Too bad nearly everyone can see them coming. xD wtf?

First of all, Ftilt will work from a PS, I managed to get that to work.

What I was talking about was using dash attack when you didnt' powershield.

Also, doesn't PSing eliminate shield hit lag while the opponent is still in hitlag? So we still techinically get more frames.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

Thanks, that matches up with their frame data.

@Underload
Agreed, but it's best to know what IS POSSIBLE so we can narrow down whats HUMANLY possible. :x

Punishing dtilt with anything but ftilt is already looking bad. I'm thinking of what RATED said. Just shield and walk away.... I think that may be our best option for it.

@Crystal
I am actually unsure about that. I'm bad with using frame data for anything other then "x is faster then y therefore better in z scenario" :x

My conclusion as of right now:

Scenario:
MK perfectly spaces a dtilt and you powershield it

Situation:
A) You were holding a grenade
B) You were not holding a grenade

IF Situation A:
Shield, walk away. You cannot ftilt. (If the dash attack turns out to be legit, then dash attack)

IF Situation B:
Shield drop and ftilt

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

SuSa, you're kind of in the mindset that Metaknight won't do anything after the powershielded dtilt. Think to the second step. What are Metaknight's most common followups after a down tilt? (assuming the dtilt itself didn't connect due to powershield)

grab
dtilt
dsmash
tornado
retreat
ftilt
nair for shield pressure / poke?
dair to run away?

are the most common results, from what I've seen.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

@underload: Well, human reaction time can easily be made up for with prediction and planning ahead. For example, I do not have the reaction time to tech chase anyone, so I typically predict what they are doing and end up getting frame perfect.

I still think that Ftilt is a legitament option, but I have to toy around with it. And a PSed dtilt into snakes dash attack scenario I was talking about is looking pretty legit.

By simplying doing this by myself, I am able to get MK to dtilt, Snake to PS and then dash attack. I cannot press the shield button in time with MK to test out if he can PS the dash attack. But from what I have seen, dash attack makes contact while the sword is still held out. I was doing this in training mode with 1/4 speed.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

@Underload

Right now I am worrying about what we can do ON a powershield. Then HOW CAN WE PUNISH. We can punish them before they can do ANYTHING ELSE. So what they do after dtilting a shield won't matter if they get hit by ftilt.

After I find out what we CAN do from a powershield, assuming frame perfect (which is possible, however unlikely) - we can find what we can do on a normal shield, and if it hits us (and we DON'T TRIP).

If it hits us, it's either walk away or pull a grenade.

That's what I do. Seems to be the only thing that works.

Also knowing they will dtilt isn't too hard (Although Havok is the only MK I've fought to do it...and now I know why, it's extremely hard to punish if I have a grenade in hand. AKA: I can't) So powershielding it isn't that unlikely. I just want to know my options.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

Ftilt and dash attack (hit into cancelled usmash optional) are definitely legitimate options after a powershielded dtilt, if human reaction is a factor.

And @Shut up, Suicide already foo': What's the frame data for jump out of shield? That's one of Snake's less used options, and probably one of the options with the most potential.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

I think it's 5 (takes 5 frames to jump), no shield dropping is accounted for, and I forget our dair (just look at the frame data I linked to. :x)

I am relatively sure they are. Dash attack (or DACUS) I feel would be good to try and keep ftilt somewhat fresh so that ftilt wracks damage a bit quicker. (So mixing between the two may be our best bet)

Also, I am agreed. I think Snake's need to use OoS dair a bit more. It's 29% of ****, you can follow DI, and it works up until higher %'s (which they seem to pop out of it against me <_<)

EDIT:
"Jump
leaves ground at frame 11"
:/
"Hits on Frame:
First Kick: 6"
: )

PS:
Dtilt is also a 6 frame move. You don't need to crouch before using it. O_o Just LIGHTLY hold down on the analog stick, then press A. You dtilt from a standing position.

So I'm thinking of using dtilt to punish more!

Also dtilt out of a powershield MAY be a legit option as well! + it'd pick up the grenade and we can toss it. :D

EDIT:
Ohsh-... advancing Snake's metagame thanks to a DDD main? O_o

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

I just did a tiny bit of testing.

You have plenty of time to roll behind after a dtilt powershield.

Then again, I was controlling MK with my feet.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

"
Forward Roll dodge
Invincibility starts at frame 9
ends at frame 19
Roll ends on: 36"

Yah, if our roll faster then x2 it's speed we could... lol

stingers · Oct 4, 2009

stop looking at the frame data, start thinking outside the box. all frame data-y stuff, you already "know" subconsciously from practice. you know you can punish a powershielded ftilt with an ftilt of your own, you know that if an MK lands with a dair you can punish it, you know that if they don't space their tornado right you can punish the landing lag, and thats precisely what frame data is going to tell you.

but he gets you twice as hard back...MK knows that he can punish a misspaced ftilt with a dash attack, MK knows you have no safe option after getting dthrowed, MK knows that he is faster then you in the air so he will try and juggle you, MK knows that if he keeps rising with the nado you're not going to pull a nade, MK knows that if he dtilts your shield it's not safe to dtilt again, MK knows that if you shield a grounded up B he's going to get punished somehow unless the Snake sucks and lets the MK glide attack to neutralize the punish, and more...

you have to look outside the numbers to beat a character who has the advantage with the numbers.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

Underload said:
I just did a tiny bit of testing.

You have plenty of time to roll behind after a dtilt powershield.

Then again, I was controlling MK with my feet.

That is the most hilarious thing I have heard of so far xD Try my method. Hold the controller you will be doing most of the actions with. Have the other flat down on the ground. Using your pinky fingers to operate the control stick and press a button. That seems to work for some simple executions.

Trust me, it doesn't work. I was rolling by mistake and MK could easily turn around and punish us for rolling.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

If we can punish a perfectly spaced dtilt with dash attack, that is something I didn't know. And it can be useful because it freshens up our ftilt, which we want at least SOMEWHAT fresh for better damage racking purposes.

If dtilt is as fast as utilt, that makes it a much more viable punishing move then I had thought (it has just slightly more horizontal range then utilt)

Actually, Snake has a relatively safe option after dthrow (DI away) - Ally told me this

If the MK keeps rising with tornado, we can't pull a 'nade. But we can get out. (I'm starting to get consistent at that)

If he dtilts our shield, it's not safe again. But we SHOULD BE ABLE TO punish it if we powershielded. Which means he couldn't do ANYTHING against.

Right now I'm seeing, with frame data, our options to punish. Right now it doesn't look like much or look like it's going to apply. But you'll start seeing it.

When facing Havok, I actually had no idea what to do if he dtilted me. Now I know either walk away (if a grenades at my feet) - or if dash attack/dtilt are legit, do that)

That's one thing that was getting me gone. And we still have the rest of his moveset to go.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

SuSa said:
Actually, Snake has a relatively safe option after dthrow (DI away) - Ally told me this

By DI away, you mean so that the knockback puts Snake closer to the ground into a postion to tech the ground? That will almost always avoid a follow up from Dthrow. If you do that near the edge Snake hits the ground bounces offstage and start to fall within range of the edge and grab it. If you tech and roll away I think you do not get punished in your roll so long as it doesn't get stopped by the edge of a stage.

stingers · Oct 4, 2009

I've played snakes that DI away after a dthrow, I assume you also don't airdodge because then we can dash grab you upon landing, that means that you either have to tech or land grounded, LOL.

And I don't even consider wasting your double jump a possibility.

I said you can punish an MK that dtilts your shield. I also said that

I'm aware Snake can punish things MK can do. He can't punish everything. MK dairs your shield, he's safe. MK fairs your shield, he's safe. MK runs away, he's safe.

Think of ways to trap MK, use your projectiles to the fullest, keep MK at bay but KEEP THE LEAD. MK wins this matchup when you lose the lead.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

*feet johns*

I'll try out Velox's method.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

What I usually do is DI away, tech, and roll towards you. To get away from the ledge. However I do mix it up, because if I get predicted I get grabbed again, or worse.

Also if we DI (EG: MK is on left, Snake is on right. Snake DI's right) we can land and punish you for trying to follow up.

If we DI any other way, you get to setup a juggle with uair, tornado, or up-B.

It was working for me against Tyrant, M2K, Havok, and DSF. It didn't work ONCE against M2K because I held slightly up <_< but that was me doing it wrong...

stingers · Oct 4, 2009

What I usually do is

Stop right there. If you have something you're accustomed to doing, something that is your first resort in any situation, people will read you and punish you for it. If you always do the same thing first in any situation, people will catch on. I'm aware that you don't ALWAYS do that (hopefully, I can't say I've ever actually seen any of your vids but that doesn't matter), but if your mindset is doing one thing in particular that you consider the best option, that just makes you predictable.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

The fact is that it is safe UNLESS predicted. I'm unsure if MK can punish it on reaction (nobody has) It's a good mixup from DI'ing away and landing grounded, however much of a safer option that is (it can be bad because it puts you into a frame trap...)

I am stating what I usually do, I was not stating that it was the best option. :s

As stated, sometimes choosing your best option is predictable - so you get punished for it. (This is actually a large thing I've heard about why EC is "easier then WC". Is that EC, everyone tends to pick their safest options so they get predictable)

^^ That was NOT meant to start region bias, I just mentioned it for what it is. Safest option always isn't always the safest option.

However it's a lot better then letting you react to our bad DI and us getting juggled. <_<

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 4, 2009

Yeah, I was talking about not air dodging, or doing any aerial. Simply fall in the tumble animation and just tech the ground OR simply hit the ground. By hitting the ground it allows snake to carry forward with his momentum that occasionally can get him offstage and grab the ledge. And from there you avoided a follow up from dthrow, but hanging on the ledge with snake is always a bad situation, probably not any better from simply jumping into the air.

Speaking of grabs, doesnt' it seem as if Fthrow is the better option for MK? It comes out faster than most people will be able to react to DI it properly, it leaves MK on the ground with pretty much all his options available to him, and puts Snake into the air where he is most vulnerable. Bthrow does the same thing, but not nearly as close to MK has Fthrow does, and Uthrow will simply place MK into the air along with snake.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

blah. nothing useful.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

Underload, I love you.

Even if that dtilt was horribly spaced, it shows what we can do.

(PS: You should never be able to jab/grab it. Or they are doing it wrong... :x)

@Crystal
Dthrow puts Snake into an easier position in which to gimp him. Always. :/

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

That jab from shield looked quick enough to at least disrupt Metaknight's approach.

And the more I look at the grab I tried, the more I think it works. I grabbed MK at the point where he was still pulling his sword back (cooldown frames, I think). Unless dtilt has IASA frames at that point, the grab should work.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

I know for a fact our grab isn't 11 frames (since you don't shield drop)

IIRC it's 9 frames?

So yeah, it works. But the MK shouldn't be that close.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

If only I knew the full extent of Snake's grab range.

SuSa · Oct 4, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWll66BNE9o

Hope that helps.

Underload · Oct 4, 2009

In that case, it really depends upon spacing. It'll probably work, though.

It's about time we wrap up dtilt and move on to other things. Realistically, what are our best options?

The beginning of the end - breaking the MK matchup

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