• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Looking at Brawl Differently. Honestly, a Must Read.

Sky`

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
1,774
Location
Gilroy CA
This will be my last 'tactical discussion' insight I think. I think my posts are growing tiresome, but I feel this is worth reading. So please read it. It's because of this thinking, that Brawl has become like the most fun game I've ever played.

I don't claim to own this knowledge, and I don't claim to have discovered something 'new'.

But I do claim to tell you that I have a different perception of Brawl, and Fighting games in general, and it's because of this new eye, that brawl has become the most fun game I've ever played in my life.

It all started after Washington. I finally began looking at brawl for more than just a trade hit luck fest, and more as a puzzle of sorts. It's when I began to really assess what I was doing each match, that I began to see things very differently.

With Peach, a typical thing that I would do, would be Dair, Dair, Uair, Utilt.

Lets assign those letters for a second.

A to A to B to C.

Between those inputs there was no thought, only what I what I would feel to be a registered combo. This is how I played fighting games for as long as I can remember. Though it works on every character at 0%, what I feared came to light.

I can't express how wrong this thinking is.

In every fighting game you'll encounter, if you ever find yourself just doing moves that usually link together, you'll lose. This is because you're not putting thought into your opponent. When you let strings of moves supersede your judgment, you're essentially letting your opponent know that you're not playing him or her.

You're just playing against a dummy. And you're assuming that you're not playing with anybody at all. You're assuming that you're playing alone.

Instead, I've found that having a little tête-à-tête with your opponent is the way to go. Know that you're playing a person, with hundreds of options to avoid and distract from your attacks. With things like Smash DI, and basic human reflexes, it's impossible to say that anything like, 'A to B to C' is Guaranteed.

This game is about creating and closing off options, one turn at a time. The higher tier your character, the more options they have to exploit and silence.

Think.

If they do A. What will you respond with?
What if they spotdodge afterward, then what?
Will your G counter to their B?
Will your Q be unpunishable to everything except to their H?

Watch.


After X, they spotdodge. What do I have to silence that?
When they do Y, They roll behind me. My P and Q will silence that, but only if they don't follow up with G.

Assess.

Now wait a second, I keep doing G after B. Allow me to condition them to think that I will continue to make that mistake. Then follow up with A after B, and I will land that stock.

If I don't stop doing Y after they do D, I'm going to lose a stock. Cut it out.

It seems that my H is extremely punishable. This will not do. I have to make a mental note to not do my H at all.

Know.

My A comes out in Two frames. When I'm in front of them, their fastest attack is their R, which comes out in Three. I have frame advantage out of shield, and thus I can't be punished.

He's pressuring me. ****it, I have landing penalty. What moves do I have, that not only he can not punish, but will put me at a distance so that I can get rid of this lag?

My standing pivot grab can go through their A and C. If they approach with them I have a perfect backup.

If I buffer C, then their D will be completely abolished. But what is their fastest buffered grounded attack? Four frames. I got this.

Collect.

I won. I know that I won because I was the dominate player. And I don't intend to let myself slip, I'm ready for my next match.

I won. It was close, it could have gone either way. I have to assess my bad habits, and eliminate them, because it's only going to get harder.

I lost. But I won't quit. I'll think about my loss, and I'll bring it back in losers.




There's much more that I'd like to discuss, but I honestly don't feel like I'm taken seriously in this community. And I don't blame you. I haven't shown that I can actually place high, or back up what I'm saying in any degree. But I can safely say, whether or not you believe me, the following is true.

- I've grown exponentially better at this game. And at this point, I'm better than I ever have been.
- My Falco is better than my Peach by at least Two fold.
- I'm seeing this game differently. Watching, learning, playing differently, and it's because of that change that I find this game extremely fun.
- I'm able to analyze habits, and ***** why things happen.
- I'm not going to stop. I'm finally seeing tangible improvement. I'm finally seeing consistency and fear in my opponents.
- I have a 'hit' list. One by one, I'll begin to cross people off.
- I'm going to win my first tournament this year.


-Sky`
 

ndayday

stuck on a whole different plaaaanet
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
19,614
Location
MI
IMO you're not taken seriously because the advice you offer in these sort of threads is really advanced stuff that people would like to think they have, but yet again maybe they honestly do see the game the same way. This results in comments like "I agree. sticky" and "Good for beginners, sticky."

People shouldn't just base their comments off that. Enough with forum theory though...

Yes, in Brawl, you have to replace the regular combos of fighting games with more thinking. You gotta know your options, use them well, and know when to use them. That's why I like Brawl too; you need to know these things in order to win, and the more you know them, the better you are. You have to learn to watch the other player and not yourself, when you play you should take every little detail in and predict, punish, do whatever necessary measures needed to win, etc.

I love this thread.
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
12,731
Location
Bellevue, Washington
Good thread, good read, nice write up Sky!

I want to point to something I wrote almost a year and a half ago now:

AlphaZealot's blog said:
Recently there was an article on Gameriot written by Glenn Cravens mentioning that there appeared to be a more emotional attachment to Brawl because victories were so hard fought for. He is right! In Melee, you would have to manipulate the opponent so that you could find a few openings during each stock, you didn’t need many openings, just a few to start long combos where most of the damage was dealt. Much of the depth was in finding or creating these openings, the thinking stopped when a combo started, and picked up again when a combo finished. But, lets remember back to some of the most memorable sets in Melee, they often came down to last stock, last hit situations, where each player was cautiously trying to exploit the other to land just one hit, just a single hit, that would win the game, it wasn’t the combo, it was that presence of mind that all these players needed was a single opening.

In Brawl we have this multiplied substantially, almost every attack you land on the opponent is the result of something you did right and something they did wrong. The opponent can air dodge at any time, but you also know they can air dodge at anytime, so how is this at all a bad thing? Watching a combo in Brawl, where one player predicts the other players defensive action so that their string of attacks continues to extend, is a lot more interesting than seeing a Ken Combo for the thousandth time. These pseudo combo’s (because a true combo leaves no room for response) are substantially more interesting than combo’s in Melee. Suddenly, both players are thinking after a hit takes place, not rehearsing!
full blog: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=444
 

WoodyWiggins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Yeah, I feel you Sky`. People still hang on to AT's like this is Melee. I'm saying that AT's are bad or they don't deserve a place in Brawl, but simply put, the term AT should not be applied to every glitch. But without going too far of topic, a massive overhaul needs to take place. Brawl is extremely different than Melee. If Brawl is to be taken seriously, it should not be treated as if it were Melee's younger brother. The mentality has to change. Best of luck to you Sky`.
 

Sky`

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
1,774
Location
Gilroy CA
Well the thing is, you can apply this kind of knowledge to every fighting game. That's what's great about it.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
This is how I think when playing brawl, why I am against infinites, and why I don't intend picking up another fighting game if brawl dies.

I liked melee, but adapted my mind to brawl I guess, now I just can't have any fun getting 0-deathed by CFs in melee lol
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
2251-6533-0581
This is how I think when playing brawl, why I am against infinites, and why I don't intend picking up another fighting game if brawl dies.

I liked melee, but adapted my mind to brawl I guess, now I just can't have any fun getting 0-deathed by CFs in melee lol
It may not be fun getting combo'd, but it sure is fun to watch/do the combo on somebody else. :p

With that said, I still respect you Sky. :(

You write good threads and doesn't afraid of speaking your mind/anything.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
Sky'... take me now. For serious, free sex if you ever want it. Your threads are always some of the best reads on this board; I regret to see you stop (though if you really want to, I understand), because you seriously add a lot to these SmashBoards, regardless of what the haters say.

Rock on, dude.
 

Spelt

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
11,843
- I have a 'hit' list. One by one, I'll begin to cross people off.
- I'm going to win my first tournament this year.


-Sky`
This was my favorite part. :D
I need to start thinking this way.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
A puzzle has pieces that fit only in certain spots, and you can only use each piece once.

A game of chess has multiple options [pieces] that can be used multiple times, in different ways. You have your standard options [pawns] then your more advanced options [rooks, bishops, knights], then your snake utilt [queen] and your goal is to keep your character flaws [king] safe.

So yah, I see it more like Chess.

EDIT:
If it was a puzzle, Snake's ftilt would only ever hit once.
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
Location
Tennessee V_V
No, its a puzzle but you can repeat pieces, or choose not to use any. They are all interchangeable pieces, actually, but some work better than others.

Old people are staving off dementia while they play, its like "timing out".
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
Location
Tennessee V_V
Well, Chess IS a puzzle... among other things.


Either way, I don't want to argue over this analogy, I just wanted to post something slightly relevant because I agree with Sky, but saying that directly is boring.

Oops.
 

kackamee

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
3,133
Location
Charlotte NC :)
NNID
SlushCream
3DS FC
3480-3017-1332
O.o Whenever I read stuff like this, I feel like I've gotten better without doing stuff. Then I play the next couple days and do stuff I wouldv'e never thought to do before.
 

Merce

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
57
Sky: Your threads require a more sophisticated understanding of the game than "who's got da best jab." You get it. Brawl is organic chess.
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
Location
Tennessee V_V
I never said you said chess wasn't a puzzle.


WE'RE IN THIS TOGETHER SUSA!


Gettin sidetracked here, anyways... kackamee, I notice the same phenomenon sometimes, although I usually actually get worse upon implementing it, for a few matches...

Once again good read sky, even more to keep in mind about this game.
 

Spelt

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
11,843
or they could just not be lazy mother ****ers and take 5 minutes out of their busy day (why are you on the internet?) to read it.
 

kackamee

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
3,133
Location
Charlotte NC :)
NNID
SlushCream
3DS FC
3480-3017-1332
I tend to think more when I'm playing which is sorta what Sky was saying we should do. But then I preceed to add in the new stuff to the point where I don't think about it again. It comes naturally.
 

Toby.

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
3,156
Location
South of the border, west of the sun.
It's a good article, although the content has already been covered a number of times. The most popular example would be Sirlin's well known break down of yomi.

That having been said, it pays for people to be reminded of this stuff now and then. And I doubt everyone has read the articles I'm talking about :laugh:
 

B!squick

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
4,629
Location
The Sunny South
Awesome stuff man. I play Bowser though, so I naturally don't have a problem with mindlessly doing a string of moves. Besides Jab and a grab release pretty much nothing has a follow up, lol.
 

mofo_

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
931
Location
The 808 State
nice read..i do this with snake all the time....and i think a lot of people who play snake do this too because of his setups, traps , tech chases, and laggy aerials..so you gotta think smart! :D
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
I have to say, Sky, I always enjoy reading your tactical threads. Some of them are things I had never considered before that stuck to me, while others, like this one, have me nodding my head in agreement. I still remember when I started to view Brawl the same way you just mentioned, except I see Brawl as more of a branching tree of responses. It definitely changed my outlook on the game, and I've never understood why anybody thought Brawl was boring after that. You have a good head on your shoulders, and I like the way you put things.
 

AKARed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
177
Location
San Jose, CA
Even though I'm primarily a Melee player, thanks for making me realize that I think too much of "am I safe from my opponent?" instead of "does my opponent see an opening in me?"
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I don't see how this brings anything new to the table regarding Brawl or even fighting games in general. In all Competitive fighting games, you have to think. Mindgames is a major part of every single Competitive fighting game in existence because if there are no mindgames involved, it'll get tiresome very quickly and people will just stop playing.

This isn't some Brawl secret or even something that's especially important in Brawl (besides the fact that there really isn't a lot of technically advanced stuff in Brawl, so it's mindgame-centered). Frankly, anyone who doesn't get this is an idiot and it's so redundant it shouldn't require it's own thread.

And, just as an FYI, this is hardly the first time someone's thrown up a thread speaking of the importance of mindgames in Brawl.
 

saviorslegacy

My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
3,727
Location
Tacoma, WA
This is how I think when playing brawl, why I am against infinites, and why I don't intend picking up another fighting game if brawl dies.

I liked melee, but adapted my mind to brawl I guess, now I just can't have any fun getting 0-deathed by CFs in melee lol
If Brawl dies I am picking up B+.
I know how to 0 - death with Sheik... pretty easily (except for the DACUS set up).

And people thought they made the game even. -_-
 

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
7,336
Awesome thread. It reinforces what I already do. As a Ganon and Ike main, I have pretty few options and combos and have to worry about whether there's an opening. Great read, time for me to win a tourney soon.
 
Top Bottom