The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Dec 28, 2009

I agree w/ Vato, playing w/ Luigi against the opposing Mario player doesn't look hard tho. I mean Luigi does makes this MU look easy for him while Mario have to bust his *** off to win. 52/48 Luigi.

Veggi · Dec 28, 2009

Spot dodge Mario's fsmash if you can't powershield it and be right next to Mario because of how much he moves on his fsmash? Sounds good to me.

Mario's jab makes him invincible on wifi too.

Big-Omar · Dec 28, 2009

Luigi can gimp Mario with Fair.

Just saying lmfao.

:mad: · Dec 28, 2009

Big-Omar said:
Luigi can gimp Mario with Fair.

Just saying lmfao.

How would a Luigi go about gimping a Mario with Fair?

mars16 · Dec 28, 2009

Its a fast move

BSP · Dec 28, 2009

B reverse or cape reverse, mario's bair > Luigi's fair

Big-Omar · Dec 28, 2009

Lol, Im just saying he can, but you gotta be stupid to fall for it.

hippiedude92 · Dec 28, 2009

mars16 said:
Its a fast move

wrong. Nair is fastest but has shortest range

bair is best option and fastest useful aerial

but upair come out frame 5 and hits marios blind spot well

:mad: said:
How would a Luigi go about gimping a Mario with Fair?

fair wall on low % gimping him

mariobrouser said:
B reverse or cape reverse, mario's bair > Luigi's fair

then luigi will bair dummy i believe they both trade hits off but luigi tends to live longer iirc? either that, but it still does its job of putting mario offstage

Big-Omar said:
Lol, Im just saying he can, but you gotta be stupid to fall for it.

theres alot of dumb players in the world

you'd be surprised sonnn

imo its no way near hard to gimp mario as luigi, and as vice versa, ive done some ridicious things to kirinblaze, kirin does some ******** crazy gimps on me no lie about that, its even more dumb who can gimp better lol, cause i think who ever gets offstage first, takes the most beating

BSP · Dec 28, 2009

I think mario vs. luigi is pretty even, or 55 : 45 Luigi solely on the fact that Luigi can kill earlier.

Sleek Media · Dec 28, 2009

50:50

Luigi
+ more power
+ hard to edgegaurd with proper recovery
+ KO moves are almost always fresh, and are all fast enough to surprise
+ Cyclone recovery can easily take Mario out if it spits him out on the opposite side as the stage

Mario
+ more speed
+ better mobility
+ fireball is more useful
+ easier to land smashes
+ can camp better if necessary
+ cape makes Luigi's fireballs nearly useless

Mario is going to look like he has to work harder, but that's because doing so gives him great control of the stage. Luigi's approach is weak, and a fast Mario can reduce his opportunities even further, forcing mistakes. Still, if the Mario tries to play too defensively, even small mistakes can come at the cost of a stock.

vato_break · Dec 28, 2009

Sleek Media said:
50:50

Luigi
+ more power
+ hard to edgegaurd with proper recovery
+ KO moves are almost always fresh, and are all fast enough to surprise
+ Cyclone recovery can easily take Mario out if it spits him out on the opposite side as the stage

Mario
+ more speed
+ better mobility
+ fireball is more useful
+ easier to land smashes
+ can camp better if necessary
+ cape makes Luigi's fireballs nearly useless

Mario is going to look like he has to work harder, but that's because doing so gives him great control of the stage. Luigi's approach is weak, and a fast Mario can reduce his opportunities even further, forcing mistakes. Still, if the Mario tries to play too defensively, even small mistakes can come at the cost of a stock.

More power is kinda a big deal, i don't think you've ever seen or played a luigi.Mario getting ko'd below 100 is a big deal,mario not being able to ko reliably until luigi is over 100% is bad.Basically if luigi di's correctly and recovers properly you can't gimp him,this poses as a HUGE problem. Only reliable smash attack that mario has on luigi is upsmash ,which should be used Oos and will kill 120ish guarentee'd. i kinda lol'd when you said fast mario,what theres no fast luigi's in the world? lmao read my first sentence again. ok mario can cape luigi's fireballs...uh big deal luigi fireballs aren't useful in this matchup to begin with.Mario's Fireball is more useful? um ok fireball is a staple move anyway..im not sure why you compared it to luigi's but, okay. Luigi can't gimp as good as mario but, he can still gimp him (dair,fair,cyclone,bair).So now lets review the match up luigi can kill early,rack damage faster,and still gimp mario. On the other hand mario can camp and gimp but, it will take him longer to kill. The reason this isn't 60:40 is because of luigi's traction.Luigi CANNOT punish more of marios moves without PSing he is forced use cyclone which is easliy sheilded and punsihed. In order for mario to win this matchup he must abuse luigi's traction and camp.Gimps are not reliable, kill are. 55:45 luigi's favor.

Edit even if luigi's kill moves aern't very reliable/hard to land, they are more reliable than gimps.

Sleek Media · Dec 28, 2009

vato_break said:
More power is kinda a big deal, i don't think you've ever seen or played a luigi.

You think wrong, kid. Do us all a favor and learn some grammar.

vato_break · Dec 28, 2009

Sleek Media said:
You think wrong, kid. Do us all a favor and learn some grammar.

Wait that's all your gunna say? i was expecting a half decent response but, okay. I'm sorry i'm gunna have to turn down your favor =[ i'm really not good at doing favors for people.

Diddyknight · Dec 28, 2009

Luigi kills sooo much easier than Mario imo. 55:45 Luigi either way. Mario abuses traction. Cyclone is shieldable. Mario has cape.

A2ZOMG · Dec 28, 2009

vato_break said:
More power is kinda a big deal, i don't think you've ever seen or played a luigi.Mario getting ko'd below 100 is a big deal,mario not being able to ko reliably until luigi is over 100% is bad.Basically if luigi di's correctly and recovers properly you can't gimp him,this poses as a HUGE problem. Only reliable smash attack that mario has on luigi is upsmash ,which should be used Oos and will kill 120ish guarentee'd. i kinda lol'd when you said fast mario,what theres no fast luigi's in the world? lmao read my first sentence again. ok mario can cape luigi's fireballs...uh big deal luigi fireballs aren't useful in this matchup to begin with.Mario's Fireball is more useful? um ok fireball is a staple move anyway..im not sure why you compared it to luigi's but, okay. Luigi can't gimp as good as mario but, he can still gimp him (dair,fair,cyclone,bair).So now lets review the match up luigi can kill early,rack damage faster,and still gimp mario. On the other hand mario can camp and gimp but, it will take him longer to kill. The reason this isn't 60:40 is because of luigi's traction.Luigi CANNOT punish more of marios moves without PSing he is forced use cyclone which is easliy sheilded and punsihed. In order for mario to win this matchup he must abuse luigi's traction and camp.Gimps are not reliable, kill are. 55:45 luigi's favor.

Edit even if luigi's kill moves aern't very reliable/hard to land, they are more reliable than gimps.

The only way Luigi kills earlier than Mario is through moves that are significantly harder to land. That's why this matchup is even.

Mario has more consistent KO percents he can rely on, while Luigi's KOs are more...spontaneous and dependent on capitalizing on significant mistakes. His Up-B and F-smash are his most powerful KO moves, but should rarely hit you. His U-smash kills a little bit earlier if he keeps it fresh, but has more difficult applications due to Luigi's lower traction and mobility. Luigi can Jab cancel a little bit better than Mario, but doesn't get kills from it since his D-smash really doesn't kill (while Mario's is actually a more effective KO move if you use it near the edge, on the flip side Luigi's B-throw kills 15-20% earlier).

I main both characters and know the matchup inside out. Most stocks, both bros should be surviving to really high percents since the main viable strategies in this matchup never kill (spacing aerials and juggling), and usually KOs from preferred kill moves happen infrequently. The main difference between the two is that Luigi gets kills more easily from non-preferred KO moves, while Mario gets KOs more easily from preferred KO moves.

Javon89 · Dec 28, 2009

Sleek Media said:
You think wrong, kid. Do us all a favor and learn some grammar.

Firstly he isn't a kid and why are you taking grammar so seriously, it's a MU discussion, say something constructive or don't post at all.

Anywhoo......

I think it's Luigi 55:45.

Killing>Gimping.

A2ZOMG · Dec 28, 2009

If you're going by the argument killing > gimping, honestly Luigi doesn't really outdo Mario in kills if you can just avoid his F-smash and Up-B, which are very unreliable.

Likewise Mario's advantages in gimping are also balanced by Luigi's large edgeguard zone.

vato_break · Dec 28, 2009

It doesn't seem like your taking powersheilding into consideration..PS>kill move, maybe you've been playing too much wifi a2z..where psing isnt viable.

jus sayin'

A2ZOMG · Dec 28, 2009

vato_break said:
It doesn't seem like your taking powersheilding into consideration..PS>kill move, maybe you've been playing too much wifi a2z..where psing isnt viable.

jus sayin'

If you know how spacing works, PS -> Kill move isn't reliable at all, and goes both ways. And furthermore, that's why you charge F-smash. The leanback usually makes him whiff if he tries to attack, and also makes it a lot harder to powershield on reaction/prediction.

Besides, I've done this matchup quite a bit offline actually.

Javon89 · Dec 28, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
If you're going by the argument killing > gimping, honestly Luigi doesn't really outdo Mario in kills if you can just avoid his F-smash and Up-B, which are very unreliable.

Likewise Mario's advantages in gimping are also balanced by Luigi's large edgeguard zone.

What about Luigi's Usmash & Dsmash?

Just asking.

A2ZOMG · Dec 28, 2009

Javon89 said:
What about Luigi's Usmash & Dsmash?

Just asking.

Luigi's U-smash kills a little bit earlier if he keeps it fresh and doesn't use it as a combo tool, but loses application out of shield, and Mario's sliding Up-smash actually travels faster than Luigi's.

Mario's D-smash > Luigi's for killing. Luigi's isn't a kill move period most of the time, while Mario's can get kills near the edge fairly easily.

Sleek Media · Dec 28, 2009

Javon89 said:
Firstly he isn't a kid and why are you taking grammar so seriously, it's a MU discussion, say something constructive or don't post at all.

Whoa, so sorry to upset you, kid.

mars16 · Dec 28, 2009

Who has the most Priority between them?

vato_break · Dec 28, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
If you know how spacing works, PS -> Kill move isn't reliable at all, and goes both ways. And furthermore, that's why you charge F-smash. The leanback usually makes him whiff if he tries to attack, and also makes it a lot harder to powershield on reaction/prediction.

Besides, I've done this matchup quite a bit offline actually.

Sure i guess your right but, at some point mario's going to have to go in for the kill and he won't be able to use his best spacing tool(back air) and at this point mario can be punished..this is when ps>ko move will be more viable.

i don't see what charging a fsmash does a luigi can just fireball>cyclone or something.

Javon89 · Dec 28, 2009

Sleek Media said:
Whoa, so sorry to upset you, kid.

Just drop it. I am not here to start and argument and look who's talking you get upset over grammar.

A2ZOMG · Dec 28, 2009

vato_break said:
Sure i guess your right but, at some point mario's going to have to go in for the kill and he won't be able to use his best spacing tool(back air) and at this point mario can be punished..this is when ps>ko move will be more viable.

i don't see what charging a fsmash does a luigi can just fireball>cyclone or something.

Charging F-smash correctly beats all of Luigi's approaches and outranges him. If all he can do to punish it is cyclone and fireball, that doesn't kill either (and keep in mind, well-timed F-smashes > cyclone). Most smashes can't be PSed on reaction if you know the fundamentals of charge releases (except for like...Lucario or Ness's F-smash LOL).

@mars: Mario and Luigi have pretty similar priority on a lot of moves, although Luigi's N-air is slightly more disjointed. Luigi's Jab also has more range than Mario's, but Mario's Smashes have more range than Luigi's respectively.

Inferno3044 · Dec 28, 2009

Luigi can punish with more than cyclone and fireballs. I have no idea where you are getting this idea man.

Sleek Media · Dec 28, 2009

Haha...kids. This discussion is pretty much over, considering it's now more of an opinionated argument than anything else. As someone who mains both bros (and ZSS) equally, I still say it's 50/50, but if you want to make it 45/55, then whatever. Who's next?

BSP · Dec 29, 2009

I'd go with 50 : 50 too.

mars16 · Dec 29, 2009

Welll Mario has more ranged attacks

Luigi kills early and has the cyclone to punish stuff

Mario's fire balls work better and Luigi's are pretty muc useless

seems as though they have the same priority

50:50

ar maybe 45:55 if you find killing power to be more important

55:45

Mario stuff being better

HeroMystic · Dec 29, 2009

Guys, wtf. This is not a 50:50. Kill power aside, Luigi is even in just about everything else Mario can do minus gimping and camping.

I can see camping evening this out, but at the same time, Luigi has the ability to get inside with Cyclone.

A2ZOMG · Dec 29, 2009

Luigi doesn't land preferred KO moves nearly as easily as Mario does. His F-smash and Up-B have no range, and he can't Jab-> Up-B in this matchup. His U-smash kills a tad earlier, but is less practical out of shield, and we just proved Mario's Hyphen Smash in fact slides faster. Mario has more reliable ways of applying his F-smash and U-smash for kills than Luigi does for his Up-B, F-smash, and U-smash, and Mario's D-smash is also a more viable kill move than Luigi's.

What Luigi does better is damage output and random high percent KOs. They go approximately even in terms of edgeguarding, and Mario wins camping.

I'd say Mario is also actually better at juggling consistently since he can do stuff like U-tilt to stop Luigi from coming from above, and he doesn't have to waste his midair jump onstage to escape some juggle traps, but this is counterbalanced by the fact Luigi just simply does more damage per hit on stuff.

Big-Omar · Dec 29, 2009

Luigi, im my opinion, is more aggressive with the cyclone, fairs, dairs, and what not. When I play Luigis, I gotta camp more than I usually do.

mars16 · Dec 29, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Luigi doesn't land preferred KO moves nearly as easily as Mario does. His F-smash and Up-B have no range, and he can't Jab-> Up-B in this matchup. His U-smash kills a tad earlier, but is less practical out of shield, and we just proved Mario's Hyphen Smash in fact slides faster. Mario has more reliable ways of applying his F-smash and U-smash for kills than Luigi does for his Up-B, F-smash, and U-smash, and Mario's D-smash is also a more viable kill move than Luigi's.

What Luigi does better is damage output and random high percent KOs. They go approximately even in terms of edgeguarding, and Mario wins camping.

I'd say Mario is also actually better at juggling consistently since he can do stuff like U-tilt to stop Luigi from coming from above, and he doesn't have to waste his midair jump onstage to escape some juggle traps, but this is counterbalanced by the fact Luigi just simply does more damage per hit on stuff.

Every thing he just said made my opionin change

Mario has more preffered kill moves and more range and is better camper with more speed
plus edge gaurding metarial, also he's is better juggler

Luigi can break move with his cyclone, but it can be predictable

Kanzaki · Dec 30, 2009

The few times I've used Luigi, multiple times I've side smashed and thought "****, if I was Mario, it would of hit ><"

Inferno3044 · Dec 30, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
Luigi doesn't land preferred KO moves nearly as easily as Mario does. His F-smash and Up-B have no range, and he can't Jab-> Up-B in this matchup. His U-smash kills a tad earlier, but is less practical out of shield, and we just proved Mario's Hyphen Smash in fact slides faster. Mario has more reliable ways of applying his F-smash and U-smash for kills than Luigi does for his Up-B, F-smash, and U-smash, and Mario's D-smash is also a more viable kill move than Luigi's.

What Luigi does better is damage output and random high percent KOs. They go approximately even in terms of edgeguarding, and Mario wins camping.

I'd say Mario is also actually better at juggling consistently since he can do stuff like U-tilt to stop Luigi from coming from above, and he doesn't have to waste his midair jump onstage to escape some juggle traps, but this is counterbalanced by the fact Luigi just simply does more damage per hit on stuff.

You are definitely giving Mario too much credit and not giving Luigi enough. You're making it sound like Luigi isn't gonna get a kill move which isn't true. Also I need this explained to me. How does Luigi have more kill power and damage but only have better high percentage KOs? Luigi wins in KOs. Period. Luigi can also use his Utilt to stop Mario from attacking from above. Luigi is definitely also able to get out of juggle traps. If we have to, we can use a nair or escape with an air dodge.

mars16 · Dec 31, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
You are definitely giving Mario too much credit and not giving Luigi enough. You're making it sound like Luigi isn't gonna get a kill move which isn't true. Also I need this explained to me. How does Luigi have more kill power and damage but only have better high percentage KOs? Luigi wins in KOs. Period. Luigi can also use his Utilt to stop Mario from attacking from above. Luigi is definitely also able to get out of juggle traps. If we have to, we can use a nair or escape with an air dodge.

I forgot about that....Since Luigi is floaty and stuff he can't be juggle that easily

I guess in this match Luigi is the better juggler, because he can escape Mario's juggling easier

Mario may have a better chance of juggling Luigi when there both airborn

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ · Dec 31, 2009

Mario pressures his opponents more than Luigi in the air while Luigi have the upper strength in the air.

A2ZOMG · Dec 31, 2009

Inferno3044 said:
You are definitely giving Mario too much credit and not giving Luigi enough. You're making it sound like Luigi isn't gonna get a kill move which isn't true. Also I need this explained to me. How does Luigi have more kill power and damage but only have better high percentage KOs? Luigi wins in KOs. Period. Luigi can also use his Utilt to stop Mario from attacking from above. Luigi is definitely also able to get out of juggle traps. If we have to, we can use a nair or escape with an air dodge.

No, I'm not making it sound like Luigi isn't going to land a kill move. I do mean that he's not going to be landing his F-smash or Up-B or U-smash for kills nearly as consistently as Mario will land his U-smash or F-smash. You forget, I've also done this matchup in tournament. A big part of kills is consistency, not just damage and KO power.

While Luigi can use his U-tilt to anti-air, it is not as good as Mario's there since it doesn't have as much priority above him, and doesn't punish airdodges quite as well.

Luigi isn't as good at escaping juggle traps period.

mars16 · Dec 31, 2009

I still find it to be an even match and if not then Mario has the upper advantage

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