The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Inferno3044]

57:43

******** ratios ftw

Lol. What's with us and having these ******** ratios for everything now?

 

[Big-Omar]

Thats because no one can decide on either 55:45 or 60:40

 

[mars16]

55:45

He has fire breath witch is cool and well yea Mario's faster and has Projectile that goes further still the Bowser has fire breath.

Still at the end Mario has a better chance of winning

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm honestly not a fan of these in between ratios. If you guys really are split on this I'll put 57:43

 

[Phiddlesticks]

i will complain if its 60:40

can you put 50:50??

 

[Inferno3044]

i will complain if its 60:40

can you put 50:50??

No because you are like the only person who thinks its that. Almost everybody agrees on Mario's advantage. There's you at 50:50, A2 at 65:35, and a semi even mix of 55:45 and 60:40. I have a question for Bowser mains. What does a 45:55 mean to you guys?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

it means "this is actually an even matchup but the other character's board is too ashamed to admit it"

 

[B!squick]

Bowser might have been earlier (can't remember where he originally was)

He's dropped 1 place each new list. How's that for being overrated?

Bowser is not the heaviest character vertically, and you really underestimate the raw power a slight charge adds to Up-smash.

You. Are. A. Scrub.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546&highlight=speed

I agree with Phiddlesticks. 50:50 because A2ZOMG doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Inferno3044]

it means "this is actually an even matchup but the other character's board is too ashamed to admit it"

You just then said that most of these 55:45's that people have said are really 60:40 because even the Bowser mains have said Mario definitely has the advantage. No offense, but looking at your MU ratios, some of them are overrated on Bowser's side. Also with your boards having a lot of 45:55's what does that say?

He's dropped 1 place each new list. How's that for being overrated?

I said I didn't remember where he was. I mean Wolf was originally like #9 on the tier list and now he's dropped over 10 spots. For all I know, Bowser could've been 5 spots above where he is now and I would say he's overrated.

You. Are. A. Scrub.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546&highlight=speed

I agree with Phiddlesticks. 50:50 because A2ZOMG doesn't know what he's talking about.

I do however concede that's it's most likely in favor of Mario, if only because of the threat of gimping. Everything else about him, other characters can do better that are 40/60 match ups if not closer. Sorry, but I'd have an easier time buying the unstoppable juggernaut A2Z is selling if Mario was higher on the tier list.

I'm gonna use some logic here. The post saying you agree with Phiddlesticks is only because you have an issue with A2 meaning you agree with Phiddlesticks and what he's thinking. You're second post is an honest post saying that you think this is Mario's advantage. Then according to the first thing I quoted, your earlier and more honest post says that it's really 60:40 Mario. I know I might have just sounded like a **** right now, but seriously this discussion as gone on for way too long.

 

[mars16]

it means "this is actually an even matchup but the other character's board is too ashamed to admit it"

I don't find Bowser and Mario to be an even matchup

But Bowser does have that firebreath

Still Mario has the speed and Fludd to hamper his recovery, projectile

But that fire breath

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't find Bowser and Mario to be an even matchup

But Bowser does have that firebreath

Still Mario has the speed and Fludd to hamper his recovery, projectile

But that fire breath

The fire breath isn't nearly as good as you are making it out to be. It's easy to get away from and it doesn't trap anybody.

 

[vato_break]

kk new character plz so long gay bowser

 

[Kanzaki]

Wait... fire breath is good? o.O

 

[mars16]

Are we done talking about Bowser

 

[Inferno3044]

I just wanna put 60:40 and move on and I will because I just feel like they don't wanna have a disadvantage like this on someone in our current spot on the tier list. Someone say a character that I won't disagree talking about.

 

[B!squick]

Who cares about tier lists? Mario's trash. Match up isn't 65:35.

 

[Kanzaki]

Who cares about tier list? Bowser's trash. Match up is 65:35.

 

[mars16]

Luigi or Pikmin

 

[HeroMystic]

Ignore the (now trolling) Bowser players. I also agree with Luigi though.

I wanna know how this is a 50:50. Certainly doesn't feel like it.

 

[Inferno3044]

You guys sure? I was thinking wario or diddy. Luigi would be cool though.

 

[Big-Omar]

Do Wario or Luigi, i had experience with both.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Who cares about tier list? Bowser's trash. Match up is 65:35.

^This.

JayDeth, Bowser doesn't survive the longest vertically. Snake, DDD, Donkey Kong, and Link iirc CLEARLY are better at surviving vertical hits by a margin of at least 10%.

And Mario's Sliding Up-smash at maximum range will kill him at around 130%, and it's pretty easy to land, and has pretty good shield pushback. Regular U-smashes are reliable at 150% and I don't need to explain how reliable that is honestly when you consider the startup, priority, out of shield properties, etc.

I've actually done Mario vs Luigi in tournament and I find the matchup pretty dead even. It's a very fun matchup with lots of juggle combos, edgeguards, and extreme baiting. I did so well against Shugo the Fox's Luigi that he went MK on me...yeah.

Matchup is 6/4 Luigi on WIFI. His Jab is over 9000x gayer on wifi mainly.

Mario can camp better and land kill moves more easily (U-smash out of shield and F-smash), although Luigi has the advantage in damage output and KO power, and generally speaking Luigi has more stuff that he can use to kill at very high percents (U-tilt, B-throw, B-air, and even U-air are better high percent KO moves than Mario's). Luigi's N-air is actually very easy for Mario to deal with. U-tilt beats it 100% of the time, and well-spaced U-airs also beat it. U-tilt is really good in this matchup in general due to the fact Luigi can't challenge it from above and he's fairly slow in the air.

ThatGuy mentioned that Down-angled F-tilt beats the Cyclone. I haven't tried it much. Well timed Smashes can also do the trick.

You can Jab D-smash him because he's super floaty. He can also do that to you too, but thankfully, he can't Jab Up-B in this matchup because Mario can buffer shield to beat that.

Edgeguarding, both characters can really punish the other's recovery quite well. Luigi's great recovery means there is a large zone at which he can safely edgeguard and make it back. Mario however is able to interrupt most of Luigi's recovery moves safely with FLUDD, and Cape REALLY hurts Luigi's recovery due to his poor airspeed.

Luigi is probably the easiest character in the game for Mario to F-smash in general. It outranges everything he has, and his approach is pretty predictable. And it's SAFE ON BLOCK. Seriously, F-smash is so amazing in this matchup it deserves its own paragraph.

And I just remembered...I landed the sickest combo ever in friendlies against InsomniaK's Luigi. Jab (off the edge) D-tilt F-air (spike). Best moment ever.

 

[Veggi]

Caping Luigi's side b makes me laugh. IMO the best way to gimp Luigi is...

Cape missle>Luigi usually missles again, I just ignore it because it doesn't do much and I can't stop it>FLUDD his down b or nair it if it comes from below the edge>if he down b'd without aid of second jump just be creative because as long as he has a jump left there isn't a clear cut thing to do against him.

 

[mars16]

Ok here we go again...get ready

Mario can stop Luigi's recovery's with fludd and his reflecter

Mario is a faster mover because he runs faster and has faster aerail movement

Luigi has more stronger attacks and knockback and is a faster attacker...I think

What do I now

50:50, they just seem even

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi has more stronger attacks and knockback and is a faster attacker...I think

What do I now

50:50, they just seem even

Mario for the most part actually has lower ending lag on several attacks, noteably his U-air, B-air, D-air, and F-tilt are less laggy.

Anyhow Luigi does do more damage and kill earlier on most moves, but Mario's F-smash is so amazingly good in this matchup along with his ability to harrass Luigi's recovery that it does balance out.

You can like kinda spam F-smash and get away with it, especially since the leanback will cause Luigi to whiff a lot.

 

[hippiedude92]

marios fsmash can just kill almost as early on luigi

vice versa etc

 

[Big-Omar]

Dont try any Uair strings. Luigi can easily break it with with Nair. >_>
Cyclone gets annoying if they use it as an attack, so sheild it then punish.
You can gimp Luigi's Green Missile with a Fire Ball, FLUDD, or cape. All you have to worry about is his cyclone recovery.

Luigi is gonna be gay with combos out of dthrow, so if he uses dthrow, air dodge.

Luigi likes breaking out combos with nair, so at an early %, dthrow to sheild grab is nice.

Our fire balls are better than his, just cape his fire balls >_>

Watch out for fsmash, it can be spammed like ****. And be careful of Jab -> Jab -> Fire punch. It kills us at about 60%

Seems to be 50:50 in my opinion.

Edit: Oh yea, Luigi's nair can poke through our sheilds >________>

 

[HeroMystic]

I just don't see how this is not Luigi's advantage, even a 45:55 Luigi seems more appropriate. Luigi's jab for the most part wrecks our ground game and he's about even with us in the air, and he racks up damage just as fast as us. Most of all, we're forced to camp and space while all Luigi has to do is get close.

I just don't see how it's 50:50. Mario is practically working harder the entire time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just don't see how this is not Luigi's advantage, even a 45:55 Luigi seems more appropriate. Luigi's jab for the most part wrecks our ground game and he's about even with us in the air, and he racks up damage just as fast as us. Most of all, we're forced to camp and space while all Luigi has to do is get close.

I just don't see how it's 50:50. Mario is practically working harder the entire time.

Mario can play quite a bit gayer than Luigi. And he's better at landing KO moves. His U-smash and F-smash are quite a bit more practical than Luigi's, Mario's U-smash has the advantage of being more viable out of shield (which is GREAT against against Luigi who has low range), and just now, we learned that Mario in fact has a faster sliding Up-smash than Luigi that is AMAZING for juggling. F-smash outranges all of Luigi's moves and is very hard for Luigi to punish if used correctly.

Luigi doesn't wreck Mario's ground game. Mario's Jab comes out the same frame as Luigi's, and your F-smash beats out all of his ground moves very easily, and he can do little to punish it, and his air approach generally isn't able to outzone Mario's F-smash range.

Btw, U-tilt AND U-air beat Luigi's aerials from below. U-air strings are perfectly viable on Luigi if you know what you're doing. He's actually pretty easy for Mario to juggle in general since he can't challenge Mario's U-tilt. If he's breaking your U-air strings, you just need better spacing.

Which reminds me, I really need to upload that video of me vs InsomniaK...I think it's a very good example of how the matchup works...

Mario I think actually wins this matchup slightly on FD.

 

[Inferno3044]

Dont try any Uair strings. Luigi can easily break it with with Nair. >_>
Cyclone gets annoying if they use it as an attack, so sheild it then punish.
You can gimp Luigi's Green Missile with a Fire Ball, FLUDD, or cape. All you have to worry about is his cyclone recovery.

Unfortunately, Luigi can use his cyclone to recover high avoiding a gimp. It's harder to gimp Luigi than you think though definitely possible.

Luigi is gonna be gay with combos out of dthrow, so if he uses dthrow, air dodge.

Luigi likes breaking out combos with nair, so at an early %, dthrow to sheild grab is nice.

air dodge isn't always the best idea. They can bait it and get you in a juggle trap or regrab and reset the situation.

Our fire balls are better than his, just cape his fire balls >_>

Watch out for fsmash, it can be spammed like ****. And be careful of Jab -> Jab -> Fire punch. It kills us at about 60%

Edit: Oh yea, Luigi's nair can poke through our sheilds >________>

Our fireballs are much better. Luigi's are pretty bad unless used by Kirby. Also, Luigi players don't use a 2nd jab. They just jab > UpB. Also his up angled Fsmash has very low lag which is good. I love messing around and repeatedly use that and have someone get hit by it.

Mario can play quite a bit gayer than Luigi. And he's better at landing KO moves. His U-smash and F-smash are quite a bit more practical than Luigi's, Mario's U-smash has the advantage of being more viable out of shield (which is GREAT against against Luigi who has low range), and just now, we learned that Mario in fact has a faster sliding Up-smash than Luigi that is AMAZING for juggling. F-smash outranges all of Luigi's moves and is very hard for Luigi to punish if used correctly.

Actually, Mario isn't much better at landing KO moves and he has less of them. Mario has Fsmash and Usmash while Luigi has Fsamsh, Usmash, UpB and Nair. Playing both Mario and Luigi, I have a much easier time getting a KO with Luigi than with Mario. Also as I said above, Luigi's Fsmash has significantly less lag and I don't see a big difference is usefulness of their Usmash's.

Luigi doesn't wreck Mario's ground game. Mario's Jab comes out the same frame as Luigi's, and your F-smash beats out all of his ground moves very easily, and he can do little to punish it, and his air approach generally isn't able to outzone Mario's F-smash range.

Actually, Luigi shuts down quite a bit of Mario's ground game. His jab actually beats most of it with a few exceptions like Fsmash.

Btw, U-tilt AND U-air beat Luigi's aerials from below. U-air strings are perfectly viable on Luigi if you know what you're doing. He's actually pretty easy for Mario to juggle in general since he can't challenge Mario's U-tilt. If he's breaking your U-air strings, you just need better spacing.

Nair can easily break those Uair strings.

Mario I think actually wins this matchup slightly on FD.

I'm gonna get the stage thing out real easy. If you are facing a Luigi, do NOT go to halberd. It has a low ceiling and that's just what Luigi wants. It's also his best stage. Practically Luigi wants stages with low ceilings like Halberd, Brinstar, and I think PS1 (can't remember if that has a low ceiling or not) and Mario will want a stage with a high ceiling to fight him so go to FD or Japes if they are legal. Japes would be your best bet against this guy. Also just other stages, Luigi does better than us on Frigate because he can recover much more safely there. Lylat is better for Mario because our fireballs work very well here to stop him. I doubt this is legal anywhere but LM is also very good against him because we can get an easy jab lock on him. Anything with a mid ceiling and some platforms (BF, YI, PS1 if the ceiling isn't low) will work well for both.

Finally, I wanna give my own bit on this. Both of these characters can play in a very similar fashion. They both have good damage racking, quick aerials, the whole 9 yards. The big difference between these is that Mario has much better edgeguarding and Luigi has much better kill power. This can be seen as even because they fight the same. This can also be seen as 55:45 Luigi because his killpower is extremely good and more helpful against us than our edgeguarding against him. And no, I'm not gonna put 52:48.

 

[Veggi]

Uair outranges Luigi's nair, as a result of this Luigi can not break out if uair is spaced well.

 

[mars16]

Well after all that I don't find it to be so even

Luigi's killing power is higher and also use his cyclone to recovery, and he can rack up damage as quick as Mario.
He does have more slower attacks then Mario but there not that slow
His Forward smash is fast and if angled upward and charged up alittle it could kill Mario at a percentage......85%

I think it has the highest knockback in the game when aimed upward..,...just seems like it

50:50

49:51

Just My opinion

 

[Big-Omar]

Mars, no ******** ratios please.

 

[Inferno3044]

Uair outranges Luigi's nair, as a result of this Luigi can not break out if uair is spaced well.

You don't always get to perfectly space it if you are juggling.I'm pretty sure there's something that they can do.

 

[hippiedude92]

lol

its not that hard to predict marios fsmash

dair/fair airdodge cross over to bait it

and its easy to ps and oos jab ***** that poopie crap

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi is extremely floaty, so spacing U-airs skillfully is entirely feasible. And besides, if you really are in doubt, just U-tilt when he's above you.

If you Jab at the same time Luigi does, you'll clank, and be in position to F-smash.

Luigi DOES have more KO moves, but most of them are very hard to land.

His F-smash has no range, so conservative play beats it consistently since the only way he can combo into it is from D-tilt, which has even less range. It's safe on block, but you can just simply camp him while he does it, and of course your F-smash has more range.

His U-smash is harder to land than Mario's. He moves slower, so getting in position to use it for the KO is harder. Luigi only combos into his U-smash better for damage purposes, but he's slower at crossovers, his sliding Up-smash doesn't move as fast, and he can almost never use it out of shield. Mario is also a character who is much better at making his landing unpredictable, so the usual U-smash to punish landing with Luigi does not work as well in this matchup as it does the other way around.

His Up-B should never hit you unless you have extremely bad roll or spotdodge habits or if he gets extremely lucky powershields. He can't Jab Up-B Mario at all since it's blockable. Actually, he can, but he has to bet on a D-tilt trip for it to work (and be in that range for that matter).

Luigi's N-air is almost never a kill move due to the necessity of sweetspotting it fresh to kill at high percents.

Luigi can get the kill earlier and he has other damage dealers that are better at killing at high percents, but Mario has some significant advantages in getting the kill at moderately high percents consistently.

Luigi's Jab only shuts down Mario's ground game on wifi where spacing is impossible. It doesn't make as big of a difference offline where unpredictable movements make it a more difficult move to apply properly.

The most Luigi can do to you consistently is punish with Tornado and space F-air/B-air if you're playing really conservatively, and you're virtually as likely to land F-smashes in the process, which have more massive reward. You can run away and outspace his KO moves more easily than the other way around, since Mario can generally wait until Luigi is in range for Up-smash out of shield.

Basically Luigi has some really powerful tools and amazing damage output and KO power, but Mario has a few ways to stay safer in certain situations and some safer/more reliable ways to land KO moves. imo it's extremely close.

Seriously, randomly charging F-smash is raaaaape in this matchup.

 

[Inferno3044]

You seem to forget that Mario's kill power mediocre. Usmash is only a reliable kill move if it's fresh. Also Luigi has some sick combos like Mario does and yes that includes the Uairs and the sick combos. Even at higher percents Luigi is gonna get the kill earlier. Also saying that Mario can kill better than Luigi is just incorrect. Fsmash will not win this MU for you especially if you abuse it. Maybe Mario's Usmash is safer, but if it isn't fresh it isn't a reliable kill move.

 

[hippiedude92]

what the ****

extremely lucky powershields?

LMAO come to ec son

i do ps upb for breakfasttttt yummyyyyyyy

and why do ppl debate on whose a better comboer? imo it doesnt matter as long theyre hitting each other and rackin up the dmg lol

 

[Inferno3044]

I gotta go with hippiedude on the UpB's. I got UpB'd twice by him. In my defense (johning) I saw the 2nd one coming but I just didn't shield for some reason. The first one he got was legit. UpB's happen. They are normally my killer/clutch. Some freaking ROB DI'd it good enough to live from it and it made me sad.

 

[vato_break]

I have to agree some of what a2z said but, this is in luigi's favor slightly.. every luigi i've played has been 2 stock/scraped/garbage for the exception of ultra luigi(back in the day) so i do have some luigi expierence. Only reason i would put this more in luigi's favor is because killing is more reliable than gimping in some cases. If luigi can recover properly mario cannot gimp AT ALL.So if mario can no longer gimp he has to turn to killing this puts you at risk becuase luigi kills so much earlier. From my expierence mario should play very campy and abuse luigi's traction if mario knows how to gimp luigi it's a done deal ggz. 55:45 luigis favor imo luigi does not have to work as hard as mario to win.