The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

I really think this is an extremely even match, and the advantage tips veeeeery slightly on stages.

My $0.02...Luigi is one of those characters that are easier to nail with Fsmash. If he shields it, you're safe (Power shield, you're dead...) and it outprioritizes everything he's got. His approaches need to be really safe when he's in KO percentages because it's also easy to set up those KOs with fireballs. Usmash is generally the same way if you reverse it first...the shield stun and the distance it pushes Luigi make it very useful.

However, I generally don't worry about saving Usmash for kills in this match-up. One area where Luigi can be extremely annoying vs Mario is his overwhelming priority on some of his attacks. Usmash helps deal with that.

This is probably 55:45 Luigi. I used to believe it was much harder, but this is one of those match-ups where playing too aggressively will get you wrecked. If you play this match-up properly, it's actually pretty close to even...Luigi can be difficult to deal with when he has the lead though...so I'm leaning to slightly his favor.

mars16 said:

I forgot about that....Since Luigi is floaty and stuff he can't be juggle that easily

I guess in this match Luigi is the better juggler, because he can escape Mario's juggling easier

Mario may have a better chance of juggling Luigi when there both airborn

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Actually, Luigi's floatiness makes him easier to juggle, and makes it harder for him to escape mario's juggling (insanely low air speed). Also, due to his air speed, he can't punish airdodges as well as mario either, and not to mention that luigi is a sitting duck when he airdodges.

Let's not forget that mario outranges everything Luigi has with a stutter stepped Fsmash, meaning if Mario can hit Luigi even if the other way around isn't possible. Even worse for Luigi, he bad traction makes mario's fsmash safe on block (unless PS'ed).

We've also said that Mario's usmash is more practical in this matchup, and his dsmash.

I don't see how this is in Luigi's favor if he's outranged on the ground, and that's where his two main killers are (Fsmash and Up B).

At most it's 55 : 45 L, but I'm still leaning to 50 : 50

Happy new years

it was a great year talking to you all 2009 about Mario vs luigi

Matador said:

However, I generally don't worry about saving Usmash for kills in this match-up. One area where Luigi can be extremely annoying vs Mario is his overwhelming priority on some of his attacks. Usmash helps deal with that.

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U-tilt more.

I camp vs Luigis cus if I go aggressive, they just punish me... hard...

I agree w/ Matador, once Luigi takes the lead, it's very challenging to make a gud comeback to beat him. I seen it happen tons of times.

A2ZOMG said:

U-tilt more.

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Nair trades too often with utilt for my tastes. I'd rather Usmash for the sure thing, but that's preference. I'd never waste my fresh Usmash against someone like Boss' Luigi or someone who'd prevent me from landing Fsmash or gimping frequently. It's a judgment call imo...

Still, 55:45 Weeg.

U-tilt almost always beats his N-air. You have to keep in mind, Mario's U-tilt does beat out attacks like Bowser's Down-B. U-tilt also has more range and a lingering hitbox, which imo makes it more practical for juggling a fairly slow moving character like Luigi.

That seems like a better move for character like Bowser

But when I try that on Luwewe it doesn't work that well, I just use the UPsmass

I'm with Matador on most of this. It's not because Luigi has much more kill power than Mario he wins. The thing is that Luigi has much more kill power and goes even with just about everything else with Mario. Mario has a couple of safer moves and a bit more edgeguarding but Luigi can recover safe enough to not get wrecked. It's definitely 55:45 Luigi at worst and even at best. Also, I think Luigi benefits on more stages against Mario than the other way around. You guys can decide whether its even or 55:45 Luigi. I will not put an in between ratio for this.

can we go MK next please?

>_<.

If I didn't believe the Metaknights I played were average, I'd contest the 65:35 ratio.

But what's your trouble with Metaknight, Hippie? (btw, 55:45 Luigi, as I've been saying the entire time)

55:45 Luweewee

HeroMystic said:

If I didn't believe the Metaknights I played were average, I'd contest the 65:35 ratio.

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QFTTTTTTTTT

I need to play a really good MK again.

It's nothing worse than 65-35 MK and nothing better than 60-40 MK. I've played offline with a really good MK main a decent amount and it doesn't feel like MK as a character shuts down Mario, Mario keeps a lot of options to deal with MK including options against his edge guarding, but MK as a character is just a lot better. A lot of the times I could have won I messed up because I'm a dummy, but if someone who's not good can do alright against a top level MK player then the matchup just isn't that bad.

I find MK to be somewhat easy for Mario, easier then Luigi..

....So are we talking about MK now...are we finish with Luweewee

mars16 said:

....So are we talking about MK now...are we finish with Luweewee

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Yeah, sure, whatever.

...I don't have much to contribute vs MK. I haven't played anyone who's too crazy about him. My guess is 40:60- like someone said, it isn't a complete shutdown, but MK's cheapness helps out here and there to give him a decent advantage.

Are we going with 55:45 Luigi? If we agree on that then I'll switch to MK.

HeroMystic said:

If I didn't believe the Metaknights I played were average, I'd contest the 65:35 ratio.

But what's your trouble with Metaknight, Hippie? (btw, 55:45 Luigi, as I've been saying the entire time)

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i just want to know mario's options against MK and vice versa stuff like " what's mario's options against a MK shuttle looping towards you, PS? Cape? Upair? Upsmash? etc" things like that. The matchup is frustrating when you have to work like 5x harder >_>. oh and i have u on aim hero ;D

i've played havok in tournament alot(he's mk is pretty ****). I usually get him to his last stock/ high percent 2nd stock....matchup is highly in mks favor. Only thing mario has in this matchup is his fireballs(which go through all of mks aerials) and mario's ko power. other than that this match is really hard...if you can manage to not get gimped then you won't get ***** as hard. UpB will work really good if he's putting pressure on your shield. I tend to use use my ground game alot more jabs,grabs,ftilt,fsmash since going in the air will get more dominated/gimped.If you do go in the air i recommend only using cape and bair and maybe dair at low percent.Also don't try to go for combos...you have to poke in damage and back away and fireball spam.Don't rush mk ever, mario has a projectlie..mk has to come to you.Also i kill with upsmash since its more reliable as a kill move and fsmash can be hard to land.


65:35-70:30 mk has a much superior air game and can get you gimped at a early percent.Mks ground game is also very good.Ftilt and dtilt outrange every thing you have but, staying on the ground. Fsmash out ranges ftilt i think. still mk beat mario on the ground and in the air.Space bairs and use fireballs agianst mks ground game and just in general...i recommend a secondary for mk.

Don't get gimped and camp him a lot. The matchup is pretty simple and obviously in Metaknight's favor. I like F-smash baiting him a lot since Mario's F-smash happens to be able to outrange all of MK's ground moves and usually won't get punished by a kill move. It's pretty much essential to save U-smash for the kill.

If MK tries to edgeguard you just supersoak him. Recovering from a low shot is another story.

I space Bair alot on MK. And if I grab him, the only throw I use is My Bthrow cus Dthrow gets me tempted to starting combos. Plus, Bthrow can Kill mk at around 140 probably if you are near the edge.

I use dthrow, up tilt locks, gimp, and I combo MK. I don't even camp him. What now?

so, oos fsmash if he pokes your shield since it outranges his ftilt and all of his other ground game options ?? and use upsmash for the kill??

I don't suggest spamming fsmash against MK unless you guys want to get your *** under MK's spiked feet.

Save your Usmash....you're not landing Fsmash vs MK. Not often enough to bank on it when your back's against the wall...

You can get an fsmash if you execute it right before he finishes a move, but it won't work OOS or after a spot dodge. Then again, that doesn't work on a lot of people.

Veggi said:

You can get an fsmash if you execute it right before he finishes a move, but it won't work OOS or after a spot dodge. Then again, that doesn't work on a lot of people.

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What move, lol? You mean like a Fair or Ftilt? Anytime I land Fsmash on an MK, it's due to them screwing up horribly.

Hmm...shouldn't Mario's strategy be to get in short hits with fast moves like jab, dSmash, and uAir, and try to use the cape and FLUDD to create openings? I know you can counter tornado with fireball (above) and dAir (anywhere), and that Mario can match the speed of MK's attacks. Combos aren't going to happen, which hurts Mario alot, but to make up for it, most MK players shouldn't have much experience against Mario. Maybe creative players can create big surprises.

I have a hard time believing 30:70. Mario has a disadvantage, but MK isn't safe in this match, and some of his best moves (tornado, dSmash) are matched by something in Mario's arsenal. The only really huge thing here is the difference in recovery ability. Guarding MK just...isn't going to happen, and that's a pretty big part of Mario's game. The opposite, however...

As in MK is using downsmash and it doesn't hit you, you could fsmash him for that if you start fsmash during his attack's active frames. Sorry, I'm making something simple sound really complex trying to explain it. XD

Mk can tilt you safely even if you fsmash he can move towards you ftilt/downtilt before the fsmash hits because they are both reiciculously fast.It's really hard to challenge mk on the ground too you basically have to sheild and punish but, it really hard...if mk is spaced theres almost nothing you can do oos because agian his tilts have range and are fast.

Wut About Mario's Dsmash. Isnt it has fast as MK's Dsmash?

Yeah, but it's worse in every single other way bar the moderately improved angle it sends people at.

I still love Dsmash.

It does look cool. ; )

hippiedude92 said:

oh and i have u on aim hero ;D

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Awesome. =3

hippiedude92 said:

so, oos fsmash if he pokes your shield since it outranges his ftilt and all of his other ground game options ?? and use upsmash for the kill??

Veggi said:

I don't suggest spamming fsmash against MK unless you guys want to get your *** under MK's spiked feet.

Matador said:

Save your Usmash....you're not landing Fsmash vs MK. Not often enough to bank on it when your back's against the wall...

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F-Smash OOS shouldn't really work against any character unless the attack lags so much you have the chance to use it, which is rare at best. Metaknight shouldn't be affected by this period.

Veggi said:

You can get an fsmash if you execute it right before he finishes a move, but it won't work OOS or after a spot dodge. Then again, that doesn't work on a lot of people.

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Mindgaming F-Smash is pretty much the only way you're gonna land it. I tend to camp Metaknight into F-Smashes, which seems to work well for me.

Sleek Media said:

Hmm...shouldn't Mario's strategy be to get in short hits with fast moves like jab, dSmash, and uAir, and try to use the cape and FLUDD to create openings? I know you can counter tornado with fireball (above) and dAir (anywhere), and that Mario can match the speed of MK's attacks. Combos aren't going to happen, which hurts Mario alot, but to make up for it, most MK players shouldn't have much experience against Mario. Maybe creative players can create big surprises.

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For the most part yes, Mario should be getting in quick hits and then creating distance between himself and Metaknight. I don't bother with Cape in this matchup for the most part. It's start-up is too long for it to be useful unless you wanna cape the Tornado, which I never tried.

You can legitmately counter tornados when it's grounded by just shooting a fireball. Priority seems to be different when it goes from grounded to aerial. When the Tornado goes into the air you can't do much about it. D-air only breaks through Tornado on the -last- hit, which demands timing and just the right spacing. Though, IIRC I also believe that Mario if below the Tornado can U-Smash to clank with it, and you can also Pivot grab Metaknight out of the Tornado though again you need the correct spacing.
And of course, you can use Up-B OOS.

Player experience doesn't affect match-up ratios. If anything that makes it worse for us because what may work the first time will not work a second time.

I have a hard time believing 30:70. Mario has a disadvantage, but MK isn't safe in this match, and some of his best moves (tornado, dSmash) are matched by something in Mario's arsenal. The only really huge thing here is the difference in recovery ability. Guarding MK just...isn't going to happen, and that's a pretty big part of Mario's game. The opposite, however...

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Mario does well enough to avoid a 30:70, but 35:65 seems legit when going against MK players that know what to do against Mario. I've personally never seen this happen, but a MK who spaces well is incredibly hard to kill.

Metaknight can't do **** about Fireballs, which is his only exploitable weakness. He has to approach you, so might as well use your only guaranteed advantage to the fullest. Going aggressive will get you wrecked, so using a mixture of Mario style (Balanced style of ground/aerial moves) and Luigi style (camping) is the best way to go. I personally use ground moves like Jab and D-Smash more on Metaknight than my aerials. Keeping Metaknight grounded is the best way to go.

Edgeguard Metaknight whenever possible. You may not be able to gimp him, but dealing damage is better than nothing. Do not bother caping his glide. You'll only eat a Glide Attack. FLUDD him instead to screw up his trajectory and possibly put him in FIHL if he attacks. It'll cause him to lag long enough to go into a freefall state where it's possible to gimp/kill him.

Mario is personally at the mercy of Metaknight offstage as the only thing he can do against reverse shuttle loops is air dodge. D-air also causes gimps if you screw up on DI and are forced to recover low. It is very important to save your double jump and have FLUDD ready as an Anti-edgeguard. Fireballs help too.

Veggi said:

As in MK is using downsmash and it doesn't hit you, you could fsmash him for that if you start fsmash during his attack's active frames. Sorry, I'm making something simple sound really complex trying to explain it. XD

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MK can Powershield F-Smash if D-Smash is blocked.

Big-Omar said:

Wut About Mario's Dsmash. Isnt it has fast as MK's Dsmash?

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Yes, D-Smash can work for punishing Metaknight's D-Smash.

I also wanna say, Counterpicking stages works wonders against Metaknight. FD, Yoshi's Island, and Smashville are your best stages. Avoid Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium if possible. Counterpicking with FD to me makes the match-up feel like a 45:55 match-up.

Ha...thanks for the analysis. I guess I can agree to 35:65, though I still think 40:60 is more reasonable (save 35:65 for GW). If you factor in mind games (MK is fairly predictable) and typical experience (again, most MK players don't know Mario), the match up becomes much more even.

Rainbow Cruise, though...BAN THAT STAGE.

so what do you do against a dair camping MK? and a patient MK (which most pros should be doing and you'll be losing lol),

what stages to cp and ban???