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The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

Juushichi

Juushichi

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Yeah, I'm more willing to say that the matchup is closer to 55-45. Granted, the only Ness in the state really is Smash 64 (and I got thrashed by him in pools), but his play against me and Xero leads me to believe that Ness is better than he's shown to be. In the air, Mario will generally win, though I think that's more of an even matchup.

I'm not extremely sure about Ness' ground game (call it inexperience), but I feel he has some options against us on the ground and though I think arguably ours is better, I'm more confident calling it close to a push if not a straight push. Approaching with fireballs is a bit of a bad idea, too. Especially since it's hard to punish a Ness who takes a fireball.

So, in air = I'd say we have roughly a 60:40 advantage (arguably easier gimps offstage don't quite put it at a higher advantage for me) and on the ground about a 50:50.

Adds up to 110:90/2 = 55:45.
 
Inferno3044

Inferno3044

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I'm kinda wondering if we should follow Hero's description and if so, we would have to start over most if not every MU. It's weird that most people say this is clearly Mario's advantage but they only say 55:45 and it's been something that bugs me. Clearly wins means 60:40 or greater to me.
 
ViceGrip

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I have a lot of experience fighting good mario mains (Vato, a2zomg, flamleon) and once they catch onto my style it's very difficult to constantly win- It's always really really close. So Mario probably does have the advantage. I think that they both have the tools to keep momentum going in their favor and 'combo' the other but mario's moves overall do more damage and wall slightly better when used correctly. They both don't have the best of tools to protect themselves from below so whoever is keeping the other person high in the air more probably has an advantage. thunder is near useless because of cape but fireball has limited uses as well due to magnet canceling. Mario can kill a bit sooner than ness sometimes but i feel that Ness can kill more reliably due to having a variety of options to choose from to land a kill, meanwhile with mario he only has a few until way later percents so it's easy to know what to watch out for. I'd type more but i got to go and you guys pretty much covered everything. 55:45 Mario.
 
A2ZOMG

A2ZOMG

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Mad props to you for contributing. You're a good guy Vice, and I really enjoyed my matches against you.
 
Famous

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Juushichi said:
Yeah, I'm more willing to say that the matchup is closer to 55-45. Granted, the only Ness in the state really is Smash 64 (and I got thrashed by him in pools), but his play against me and Xero leads me to believe that Ness is better than he's shown to be. In the air, Mario will generally win, though I think that's more of an even matchup.

I'm not extremely sure about Ness' ground game (call it inexperience), but I feel he has some options against us on the ground and though I think arguably ours is better, I'm more confident calling it close to a push if not a straight push. Approaching with fireballs is a bit of a bad idea, too. Especially since it's hard to punish a Ness who takes a fireball.

So, in air = I'd say we have roughly a 60:40 advantage (arguably easier gimps offstage don't quite put it at a higher advantage for me) and on the ground about a 50:50.

Adds up to 110:90/2 = 55:45.
Click to expand...
When I played Smash64 I kept falling for Fair because....I was looking for a move that out prioritizes it...Not alot of moves do...He would recover with rising Fair mostly so once I found out I just ledge guarded with fireballs...I died most of the time from getting B-thowed around 130+ since I (or anyone with good DI) can survive well over 100%+

As far as gimping Ness, its relatively easy depending on how close Ness is to the stage on a horizontal level...If he's somewhat close just hog the ledge and make him recover high(or not at all if he aimed for the ledge =/)

Someone said that tossing fireballs while Ness is recovering is good...which it is...Fire eats away there jumps and also makes them fall even lower when they're trying to recover...This works well with spacies too...

Also, Cape is too good in this MU so use it often...I remember that 64 tried to gimp offstage with a PK Fire and I caped his upB when he was coming back...Died at 0%..lol good times(7% after getting hit by the cape)

PK fire racks damage fast if you don't know how to SDI out of it...Approach cautiously usually SH Fireballs or Shielding...or both. As far *** Ness's Bair, you really shouldn't be getting hit by it unless your trapped in PK Fire or used your UpB..
 
Inferno3044

Inferno3044

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Juushichi said:
Yeah, I'm more willing to say that the matchup is closer to 55-45. Granted, the only Ness in the state really is Smash 64 (and I got thrashed by him in pools), but his play against me and Xero leads me to believe that Ness is better than he's shown to be. In the air, Mario will generally win, though I think that's more of an even matchup.

I'm not extremely sure about Ness' ground game (call it inexperience), but I feel he has some options against us on the ground and though I think arguably ours is better, I'm more confident calling it close to a push if not a straight push. Approaching with fireballs is a bit of a bad idea, too. Especially since it's hard to punish a Ness who takes a fireball.

So, in air = I'd say we have roughly a 60:40 advantage (arguably easier gimps offstage don't quite put it at a higher advantage for me) and on the ground about a 50:50.

Adds up to 110:90/2 = 55:45.
Click to expand...
Math like that doesn't work for MU ratios. It's like saying if it will take 9 minutes to cook something at 100 degrees then it will take 1 minute to cook the same thing at 900 degrees. As for Ness's ground game, I never saw it as impressive. His range is very poor and his boxing game is pretty bad. I guess his ftilt is like ours but worse because he can do more with ours, compliments our moveset and we have more range on it (I wanna say the frame data is similar). His dtilt is OK, but can easily be DI'd upwards so thats not a problem. His only ground move that I think is good is his dash attack and that won't even up the ground game.

Famous said:
PK fire racks damage fast if you don't know how to SDI out of it...Approach cautiously usually SH Fireballs or Shielding...or both. As far *** Ness's Bair, you really shouldn't be getting hit by it unless your trapped in PK Fire or used your UpB..
Click to expand...
What direction do you SDI out of PK fire?

There's something I wanna bring up about Ness's awful grab release. I do not know much about how they work in detail but I did figure out some things of what Mario can do. I'll admit that this was on a level 9 computer but the fact that they worked 100% of the time means something. CPUs won't be affected by the same thing 100% of the time.

Air Release: Didn't test but I doubt you can do anything out of it.
Ground Release (away from you): Guaranteed ftilt
Ground release (close to you): Guaranteed Dsmash

The only thing I don't know is how to trigger a certain release on will. Anybody know how to do so?
 
BSP

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Too bad Mario's pummel is so slow...but if ness' feet touch the ground he should ground release.
 
Bartolon

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Ness can perfect shield the ftilt.. out of a ground release.
We still have FH PKF is a pretty good move. harder to SDI out of and we can quickly follow up with an arial.
Usmash and utilt are pretty good .__.
 
Inferno3044

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Bartolon said:
Ness can perfect shield the ftilt.. out of a ground release.
We still have FH PKF is a pretty good move. harder to SDI out of and we can quickly follow up with an arial.
Usmash and utilt are pretty good .__.
Click to expand...
As Famous said, it has to be frame perfect. If it isn't then you can shield it. I have never seen Usmash as that good a move and his Utilt is like ours but like ftilt ours compliments our moveset more.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but I think its 60:40 Mario mainly due to the fact that most if not all of us believe that Mario wins.
 
smash64

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this is a very hard MU for Ness, Mario's fire balls, flud and cape is what gives Mario the advatage in my opinion, I wish there was more Mario mains in the MW...and Ness mains lol low tiers ftw!
 
Famous

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Fludd cools down Ness hot head...Hitting Ness with Fludd reminds me of someone throwing water on an outlet...
 
kirbyfan66

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Well, all Ness has to do is use his Down Special, and our fireballs are useless. Sure, he needs great reaction/luck if he wants to avoid an Ftilt (or any move), but that move makes the fireballs less useful.

The Cape screws over Ness' recovery, although FLUDD helps and is a good option. The Cape alone makes this matchup Mario favored. =3

In the end, I'd say either 55-45 Mario or 60-40 Mario.
 
Inferno3044

Inferno3044

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kirbyfan66 said:
Well, all Ness has to do is use his Down Special, and our fireballs are useless. Sure, he needs great reaction/luck if he wants to avoid an Ftilt (or any move), but that move makes the fireballs less useful.

The Cape screws over Ness' recovery, although FLUDD helps and is a good option. The Cape alone makes this matchup Mario favored. =3

In the end, I'd say either 55-45 Mario or 60-40 Mario.
Click to expand...
Well I guess you can absorb the fireballs but if you do it off stage then you'll be floating down and it makes it easier for us to gimp. On stage absorbing them is good assuming we aren't really close and can punish it. FLUDD screws up his recovery more than cape mainly because for some reason I can't get the timing right for caping moves that charge into you like PKT or Pika's Skull Bash.

Is 60:40 Mario able to be agreed upon?
 
Inferno3044

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Then I'm ending it at this. Also with Hero's idea of making MU's more accurate, I will let certain discussions on this thread be rediscussed. Not recent ones though.
 
Matador

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I'm convinced that we lose to Lucas, albeit slightly...but I'd chalk it up as a loss. His zoning, priority, ungimpability and overall options trump ours imo.

He's got some legit KO setups too.
 
Famous

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Dtilt-FSmash, lol...The only move Lucas has that truly wrecks us is his Nair...Harder to gimp than Ness but still gimpible and grab release still works in this MU...

The only thing that is hard to get around is his nair...

Idk how to score this mu...Lucas has a slight advantage given that he's not offstage the majority of the time
 
DtJ XeroXen

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The thing about Fludd in this matchup is, if you have it charged it FORCES Ness to use his PK thunder from an angle where you can't hit with it if you're onstage.

Usually from below, which can result in an edgehog -> cape if you know what you're doing.

That's all I'm sayin.
 
Famous

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mars16 said:
You say Lucas is Ungimpable!!!

Why is his recovery ungimpable?

Its just Like Ness's
Click to expand...
Well...FIHL doesn't effect Lucas UpB alot of times...His UpB also has better trajectory and hits multiple times if it touches you...The thunderball last longer than Nesses

I don't really rely on FLUDD in this MU, mainly cape...Lucas doesn't really have any defensive options if you go after him offstage...
 
mars16

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Yea......

I find this match to Like a Ness Match except Harder

The easy part is in the Air...Lucas Air game is worser then Ness's

Correct Me if I'm wrong
 
ViceGrip

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I know you guys are discussing Lucas now but just wanted to say thanks to A2zomg as well and that we should play again when I'm up there/living there next year. I'm not convinced the MU is 60:40 Mario but you guys are moving on now so someone just hit me up when that subject re-opens again.
 
Chuee

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Matador

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kirbyfan66

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Lucas... He's very different from Ness, but I say we still have a lead.

His recovery is much harder to screw over than Ness', especially since you can't interrupt it. A well timed Cape should do the trick- if he's under the stage, a cape off the ledge is perfection. FLUDD is less useful as Lucas' recovery goes vertical fairly well.

On the ground, it's all about being close ranged. Lucas' PK Fire/PK Freeze are great projectiles, but close ranged they're useless (PK Fire has it's uses, but not as many). Ftilt is a great approach, and in the air, anything goes (excpet Fair).

Edgeguarding Lucas is rather simple, it's jis recovery that messes with Mario's. Cape needs to be perfectly timed and FLUDD is near useless. Also, fireball is a pretty bad choice as it gives Lucas a better posistion to recover. The Fair is pretty useful here, but it's risky.

So, in essence, the most useful moves are Cape (no duh), Ftilt, ALL aerials, and in some cases, the Fireball. The worst moves to use are FLUDD for once, Fair on stage, and Dtilt. In the end, I say 55-45 Mario.

That's my five bucks on the matter. =P
 
Inferno3044

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The only thing I see useful in those videos are showing how sick Boss and Pink Fresh are. Anyways I'm assuming we are going to Lucas so I'll put in my stuff. I think Boss used too many fireballs though.

Basically what makes him a hassle is that he has disjoints and he is pretty hard to gimp. On the downside, his moves aren't that fast. His range and priority are poor and and he's in a really bad spot if he has to use PKT to survive. His aerials aren't safe but can be a bit of trouble if you get hit by them. They also don't really compliment each other also which makes me think that his air game isn't very good. His ground game if pretty good though. Maybe better than ours with that dtilt lock but I can't fully say first hand. His grab break is bad which is something Boss took advantage of. It's good to get Lucas off stage once again shown by Boss. Lucas also has some decent pokes which makes him a bit of a threat. FLUDD isn't as good on him as it is on Ness but can still do something.

I'll let someone else say Mario's pros and cons but overall this is not a definite win for either character. 55:45 Mario or even. Ratio subject to change when I get more on Lucas' abilities.
 
kirbyfan66

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One quick thing about Lucas. Depending on how far away you are, he can actually Dspecial a reflected PK Fire. So don't be too far from him- stay up close, shield strong attacks, and get him off stage. Also don't worry about his grabs much- Fsmash that punishable snake.
 
smash64

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XeroXen said:
The thing about Fludd in this matchup is, if you have it charged it FORCES Ness to use his PK thunder from an angle where you can't hit with it if you're onstage.

Usually from below, which can result in an edgehog -> cape if you know what you're doing.

That's all I'm sayin.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you learned the match up xero =]
 
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