The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

matchup is the same anyways, we already ***** Ness enough, i dont see ness 6/4, ness can actually win this matchup if he gives enough pressure to Mario w/ his aerials and avoid his cape and Fludd, smart Ness players knows how to do magnet cancel when Mario throws out a fireball or 2. Ness is officially over when hes about to recover, Ness is going be like "o d***n inb4capeorfludd *mario capes or fludd his recovery, Ness loses stock* - OUCH!!"

 

[BoTastic!]

*sigh* Here it comes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario fundamentally however is better at aerial pressure than Ness, which is actually why he wins the matchup.

 

[Big-Omar]

I fought this match up before >_>
Mario pretty much ***** Ness if you play it right. Space Bairs and pressure him. Get him off stage for an easy cape/FLUDD. But Ness can pressure you back with Bair walls and stuff.

And I funny thing I do with Ness is bait his PSI magnet by camping fire balls. Then I whip out a Fsmash.

 

[Yink]

I hope to speak for the rest of the Ness boards in saying, "Ness does lose to FLUDD". I promise I'll be as nice as possible. I think the FLUDD thing was funny for awhile actually.

Okay! That's out of the way...Ness will just have to keep in mind to be smart with PKT2 and his recovery options. If you're smart you won't die as easily and won't be gimped as easily either. Ness doesn't die when he goes off-stage. He just has to be wary and careful.

On-stage you've got lots of fairs...LOTS. Be careful of his grabs and bairs. Also PKT2 mindgames. You'd be surprised how many people fall for them...

As the main who runs the MU (and only girl Ness like, in existance lol) I'd safely place this at 60/40 or 55/45.

- Ness can recover but it's more difficult
- Mario's got some good tricks
- Ness can heal
- Mario has better combos (IMO)

Either way, this is what I stated before: 60/40 or 55/45 in my favorite plumber's favor.

<3

 

[A2ZOMG]

^What this person said.

Well there's one Ness main. Thanks for the input.

 

[Yink]

No problem dude~

The Mario's are rockin'.

/epic

/10glowstickmarios

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol. I might have to sig that.

What are Ness' recovery options? I know he has Magnet stall which basically works the same way as our cape, but anything else?

 

[Yink]

Lol. I might have to sig that.

What are Ness' recovery options? I know he has Magnet stall which basically works the same way as our cape, but anything else?

Haha, I thought you guys might like that gif.

Well when I say recovery options, I mean saving the double jump especially. Magnet stalling really isn't that great of an idea if you're already low.

But yeah he's got Magnet which can reverse a little if you know how to do it, then PKT2. Best choice we have is to go low and aim straight up IMO and if you do it right you can slide a bit up the stage (sounds idiotic but it works).

I also talked about this with A2 a min ago...I've never tested it, neither has he but do windboxes effect water? I know Ness' magnet can cancel Snake's C4...but what about water? Never even thought about trying it myself.

 

[vato_break]

Generally ness's will recover below the ledge with a Pk2 which can be easily edge hoged or they'll recover with a riseing fair which mario can counter with a reverse fair....i haven't really played many ness's(i've only played fow and vicegrip) so its hard for me to add any input.

just note a few things:
- Fsmash is not safe on block ness can easily punish with grabs

- and fair is stupid as hell...

 

[Yink]

You brought up a point I missed vato, thanks.

Ness' WILL save the Bthrow until you're at least past 120% and if you're still good with DI it might/will kill you. Ness had one of the strongest throws in the game if not the strongest.

 

[HeroMystic]

I also talked about this with A2 a min ago...I've never tested it, neither has he but do windboxes effect water? I know Ness' magnet can cancel Snake's C4...but what about water? Never even thought about trying it myself.

It doesn't stop FLUDD. Kirby and Chaingrab's inhale are windboxes and water bypasses it. I also just tested PSI Magnet myself and unless there's some AT I don't know about then it doesn't work.

 

[Chuee]

Mario's fireballs > Ness' DJ.
More input later.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You know I never really thought of edgeguarding Ness that way, but now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense.

 

[HeroMystic]

You know I never really thought of edgeguarding Ness that way, but now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense.

wut?

I love doing this.

 

[Yink]

You know I never really thought of edgeguarding Ness that way, but now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense.

Haha, it's exactly the same as using IC's Ice Blocks. You can do it to both Ness AND Lucas.

 

[BSP]

Don't get grabbed in this MU. Ness' throws either do at least 10% or more (u and f), put you in a bad position (d), or outright kill (b).

I think Yink covered the major stuff.

 

[Inferno3044]

Just putting out a couple more things. Fireball's while Ness is on stage isn't good because he'll absorb them. Ness's range and priority are also bad and he lacks good shield pokes. Ness has legit throws and avoid getting hit by PKF.

I guess I'll say 60:40 Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

You can fireball Ness on-stage, but you can't camp. Keep in mind Ness' PSI Magnet actually has a ton of ending lag that can be greatly punished. You can still fireball approach and even spam fireballs a bit, but you definitely can't camp.

 

[Delta-cod]

PSI Magnet can be canceled with a jump, dodge, roll, or maybe Usmash. It is only laggy if you don't cancel it.

Inferno, Ness vs Mario friendlies next I see you. Hope you're keepin' that pimp hand strong. =P

 

[HeroMystic]

I see, thanks for clearing that up. Fireball approaching is still probable though.

60:40 Mario seems legit. Counterpick stages? I'm thinking Battlefield for platform ownage, and Frigate to keep close-quarters combat.

 

[Yink]

Don't get grabbed in this MU. Ness' throws either do at least 10% or more (u and f), put you in a bad position (d), or outright kill (b).

I think Yink covered the major stuff.

<3

Also if the Ness you play buffers everything it does get a little harder too. Look out for combos like:

fair > fair > immediate grab
DAS (Double Aerial Shuffle) < if you have NO idea what that is I can provide a link
fair > helpless > jablock

---

EDIT: Ninja'd :embarrass

I'd CP Frigate. Gets hard for us to grab the ledges. RC maybe too, depends. Ban Brinstar and Japes.

 

[Inferno3044]

Inferno, Ness vs Mario friendlies next I see you. Hope you're keepin' that pimp hand strong. =P

My next tourney is Poly Brawl so try and get there. My singles skills are starting to get legit also. My pimp hand is always strong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you play against Vice or someone who plays like him, don't fall into bad spotdodge habits.

Like seriously idk why, but Vice's playstyle with Ness counters the "standard" spotdodge habits REALLY hard. He landed a lot of "free" D-airs on me in some matches because of me being an idiot with spotdodges lol. But understanding that is how I finally got my act together and beat him the last match I got to play against him. =P

But anyhow you're better off outzoning/outspacing Ness with B-airs and U-airs anyway, but again it does require a brain to observe what Ness is doing and react appropriately. Because Ness's D-air is slow and he has trouble controlling space below him without it, that's important to keep in mind. It can be annoying to punish if you're reacting to it after it autocancels, but interrupting it works very well.

This matchup also involves a lot of trading hits with gtfo moves, since if either of you makes a spacing mistake, N-air OOS punishes.

Short summary: Both characters focus on aerial brickwall tactics in this matchup, but Mario has more options for breaking Ness's walls and walls slightly safer than Ness does. Ness may have a good B-throw kill, but Mario can also viably get some solid KOs with Sliding Up-smashes, Jab cancels to D-smash, and sometimes spaced Up-angled F-smashes. Some of these tactics kill earlier than what Ness can do, and the first two strategies are not very unsafe if executed correctly.

 

[mars16]

Did I over here something

Nesses Priority is good.. but his range sucks but his priority is good

still though I find this match to be

60:40 as well Mario

Ness:: Having a very easily gimped Recovery and laggy attacks
to Mario's faster attack and non laggyness,

Credit:: He does have that fire stuff

 

[Inferno3044]

Did I over here something

Nesses Priority is good.. but his range sucks but his priority is good

still though I find this match to be

Actually Ness has little priority. It's just that a good amount of his most used attacks have disjoints (fair, all of his smashes). That's probably why you think his priority is good. Ness has more power than Mario also. Also remember that he can attack pretty fast. His air game is significantly faster than Lucas' so don't relate them on this. Mario's air game is faster than Ness's though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's air game isn't significantly faster than Lucas's (and Lucas does actually move faster keep in mind). They both have dumb commitment on every aerial they do and can't do crap to punish high altitude airdodges.

 

[Pierce7d]

Alright, I didn't see evidence that everyone understands this well, so I'm going to explain it.

Ness' Absorption has ending lag. However, that ending lag is completely eliminated into certain actions (which you cannot punish reliably after fireball) if he actually absorbs something. This makes fireball approaching nearly out of the question, though it's still necessary, and requires GREAT patience. Remember that each fireball heals TWICE as much as the fireball would have done otherwise.

Also, Ness' Fair WALLS THE HELL OUTTA MARIO, ALMOST BETTER THAN ANY OTHER MOVE IN THE GAME.

Seriously, it's mad gay. I had to time out a Ness in a low tier tourney once, because all they did was wall with Fair and absorb. Random pokes on either side made the lead flip flop, but in the end, I outsmarted him and won.

I know it's easy to say, "But Mario doesn't get shut down by walls, he can just get inside and then just ****."

THIS IS NOT THE CASE SO MUCH WITH NESS. It's actually super duper frikken gay. MORESO THAN MARTH IMO. You can powershield Marth. Ness' Fair doesn't suffer from that.

I'm not sure who's advantage. But it's honestly so campy and down to the wire that at the time being, I wouldn't vote more than 5 points in either direction. If either player commits to an approach, the other has strong walls and options to stop it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's F-air does not have the range to always wall everything UNLESS he retreats it (which is impossible to do infinitely), and Mario's Up-smash does in fact beat it properly timed.

Overall I'd say Mario's walls are safer and more rewarding (since he combos off of aerials more easily).

 

[Pierce7d]

Mario's walls are more rewarding, Ness' walls are more consistant. Fortunately, due to running shield in this game, there are 0 walls I've discovered that work completely that don't have to sacrifice stage presense (IE: you must move backwards while walling). However, that same mechanic allows you to easily regain spacing. Ness' has fairly good options out of a dash.

 

[mars16]

Overall
______
Ness
----
Being stronger
Has more kill Power
Consistent Walls
Can Absorb projectile for health...Witch I find cool
Good Options out of dash
Grab range
______
His recovery sucks
Grab has so lots of frames
Lower priority
Range
____
Mario
-----
Being Faster
Better air game
More rewarding Walls
Better Spacing.......Fire balls, Biar
Priority
Safer kill moves
Weight
_____
Lower in Power (Who cares)
Shorter grab range
?


40:60 Mario

 

[Famous]

Haha, the funny thing about this match-up is if you grab Ness and pummel him you can follow up with a jab or F-tilt that is unavoidable if your frame perfect on the release...

Mario can survive his backthrow surprisingly at high percentages with proper DI (110-120ish Fresh)

 

[Yink]

Haha, the funny thing about this match-up is if you grab Ness and pummel him you can follow up with a jab or F-tilt that is unavoidable if your frame perfect on the release...

Mario can survive his backthrow surprisingly at high percentages with proper DI (110-120ish Fresh)

Like I, and someone else mentioned, don't get grabbed though. It doesn't take that long to get damage if you do create Fair walls.

Ness should save that bthrow to be used at at least 120%. (as I mentioned earlier)

While Ness does suck (IMO even though I main him) I think people don't take him seriously enough until I beat MKs or Snakes and they go, "I knew the MU but I didn't think it would work like that".

But yeah this MU shouldn't be too hard for Mario, takes some adapting for Ness.

 

[Famous]

I used Ness at Apex believe or not...

 

[mars16]

....................does anyone agree with

60:40 Mario?

 

[Inferno3044]

Basically, once you get through fair, it's kinda in the bag. Unfortunately it's a good, quick, long lasting multi-hit spacing move so this'll take a while. As I said, on stage fireballs have very little use and should be used sparingly.

Haha, the funny thing about this match-up is if you grab Ness and pummel him you can follow up with a jab or F-tilt that is unavoidable if your frame perfect on the release...

Can you get him with Dsmash from grab release? I'm pretty sure they both come out on the same frame. Also, by frame perfect I'm assuming you mean to correctly buffer it

 

[Bartolon]

I have much exp in this MU from irios. It's a hrd MU for ness ****. Ness CAN'T be above mario or he will get *****. Ness needs t o play low but mario covers thta with a great ground game and a good projectile. The best way for ness to play vs mario's are to play safe and punish. Always recover from below or you will get caped or something else *insert FLUDD joke*
At first fair will be hard for mario but if a mario adapts too it fast enough you're pretty screwed..
Ness needs to use many nairs.. and grabs too rack up damage. Ness has a hard time coming on the ground when he's above mario. Mario has so many options.. like Bair,Usmash,Pivot grab (for airdodge punish) Fireball to grab/stutter step fsmash.

Dsmash is a really fast move and will get us away if we're in mario's face..
I see it as a 60-40 mu for mario.. he covers ness his aerial game with many moves and that's what makes it hard for ness because his playstyle is aerial based..

 

[Famous]

Basically, once you get through fair, it's kinda in the bag. Unfortunately it's a good, quick, long lasting multi-hit spacing move so this'll take a while. As I said, on stage fireballs have very little use and should be used sparingly.



Can you get him with Dsmash from grab release? I'm pretty sure they both come out on the same frame. Also, by frame perfect I'm assuming you mean to correctly buffer it

I don't really know about D-Smash and yes, correctly buffered...

 

[HyperGumba]

I think it's 40:60 in Mario's favor.
Mario owns Ness in his airgame,and Ness doesn't have much good options on the ground. Also Mario ***** Ness' recorery.

 

[Flameleon]

-I've played a lot against Vicegrip and he made me rethink about this MU...seriously, any Mario without MU on the "advanced" style of Ness will be destroyed x9, force Ness to be in mid-air and try to stay with your back towards him to use spaced Bairs, but, carefull with his Fair...don't spam Fireballz(like me <,<) outside stage, we have a nice advantage. I think this MU is still ours...55-45 perhaps...it's stage dependant too, avoid platforms.!...-