The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

I don't think sliding D-tilt is a good approach option because D-tilt takes as longer than Mario's Frame 5 tilts to attack (taking 12 Frames). This leaves peach open to faster ground attacks like Mario's F-tilt or D-smash hitting peach before the move comes out. Peach's F-tilt and U-tilt in a similar respect both last longer than Mario's D-tilt so it leaves Peach Vulnerable to OOS attacks. Peach may be as fast as Mario on the ground with some moves but overall her ground game is slower and laggier. Any use of Peach's ground game will be telegraphed leaving her open to approach options after shield/dodges.

Mario's Fireballs are good because of the amount of Frames the fireball lasts after the attack has come out. With Good spacing this can easily lead to approaches with other attacks like F-tilt, grabs, OOS attacks or B-air depending on how the opponent reacts. When facing Peach fireballs slow down her airgame because in the air she loses the ability to shield and her options for dealing with fireballs all have lots of lag.

I don't think Peach will have an easy time approaching this match. Mario will also have a much easier time KOing. The only thing that keeps it from being in Mario's advantage is damage racking & combos which peach will have an easier time if she gets the right hits to land. Mario has to focus on punishing peach's laggy moves with damaging attacks F-smash and/or D-smash, U-air OOS, B-air OOS, Up-Special OOS, Shield Grabs, Blind-Up-smash OOS. Mario has to also control spacing with faster but less damaging hits N-air OOS/F-tilt/Jabs and pressure with fireballs/Fludd to stop her airgame so she retreats to the edge of the stage where Mario's Up-angled-F-smash/Charged-D-smash will KO her early.

I think the Matchup is around 50:50

TheCubeStud said:

Matador, I'm pretty sure you were in the TP4 livestream as I mentioned my victory over Praxis. I know someone in the stream asked if I used Mario, and I said "Hell no, it's a 6:4, don't be stupid." I play Mario better than I play Wolf, but I'd much rather play a 45:55 disadvantage than a 4:6 disadvantage. We even played Mario/Peach afterward for testing purposes, and it really affirmed our 6:4 beliefs.

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Listen dude, I don't even know you. I've never seen your Mario, I'd never even heard of you till the SWF wifi thing, and I don't even know anyone who's actually played your Mario.

You telling me (shortly after proclaiming yourself as a top Mario) that the match-up is 60:40 without elaborating doesn't tell me anything. Not only that, but you're assuming that I'm super set in stone about it and I'm not open to the possibility that it IS 60:40...instead you're trying to make me out to be wildly biased and thickheaded rather than explaining your reasoning to me.

I think it's 55:45 and that 60:40 is over the top. I think Marios lose the match-up because they approach Peach like they'd approach a normal character without disjoints when they should be camping her like they'd camp Marth until they found an opening and using Fludd to screw up spacing. Numerous Marios THAT I KNOW OF, that I've seen at work or played myself can attest to this. My own experience backs it.

Persuade me that I'm wrong instead of trying to force your opinion on me. That doesn't work, especially over the internet.

Christ almighty, first it was TC1, now it's this guy. Wtf is it with some of you WC Marios?

wait Oregon is wc?

must be that high/top tier disease spreading in all of wc, makes them smoke weed or makes them high or some **** lol

and i was one of the marios that thought u can play this matchup anyway you want like you'd usually do against every other char XD but i played the matchup wrong lol

and yes oregon is wc vato lool

+10 hippy points for Matador

TheCubeStud said:

Matador, I'm pretty sure you were in the TP4 livestream as I mentioned my victory over Praxis. I know someone in the stream asked if I used Mario, and I said "Hell no, it's a 6:4, don't be stupid." I play Mario better than I play Wolf, but I'd much rather play a 45:55 disadvantage than a 4:6 disadvantage. We even played Mario/Peach afterward for testing purposes, and it really affirmed our 6:4 beliefs.

And to whoever the math genius is that said 6:4 is a 2-game advantage, what's the score if the 4 game person were to win one more game out of the 10? Yeah, it's logically a 1-game advantage.

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Ether you seriously can't fight and scared of Peach or you or you are letting Peach's that you play get away with alot of stuff Mario should not be letting her get away with. Cause all I hear you doing is hyping yourself up as one of the top Marios yet.......you cant explain anything. Peach does beat Mario, but seriously I am not even gonna bias the ratio cause I main Peach. Yet you play Mario and you going over board. Si\omething is wrong here.

The Master of Mario said:

I don't think sliding D-tilt is a good approach option because D-tilt takes as longer than Mario's Frame 5 tilts to attack (taking 12 Frames). This leaves peach open to faster ground attacks like Mario's F-tilt or D-smash hitting peach before the move comes out. Peach's F-tilt and U-tilt in a similar respect both last longer than Mario's D-tilt so it leaves Peach Vulnerable to OOS attacks. Peach may be as fast as Mario on the ground with some moves but overall her ground game is slower and laggier. Any use of Peach's ground game will be telegraphed leaving her open to approach options after shield/dodges.

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Dtilt is nopt used as an approach. it is used as a spacing and baiting tool. Also helps with evasion.

And ground game slowlyer and laggier? Look at this video please. Dont worry about the sheik not being that good or w/e. I dont care for this match or winning. Just look at Peach's ground/pressure game in general. it is not slow. Mario can't pressure and be quick like this more than Peach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmulz-zYbA

The Master of Mario said:

Mario's Fireballs are good because of the amount of Frames the fireball lasts after the attack has come out. With Good spacing this can easily lead to approaches with other attacks like F-tilt, grabs, OOS attacks or B-air depending on how the opponent reacts. When facing Peach fireballs slow down her airgame because in the air she loses the ability to shield and her options for dealing with fireballs all have lots of lag.

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They are not that good on Peach. Peach has no problem getting over then and close to Mario. And if you are moving back and pinned to a corner from this, it makes it easier to get to you and land a good hit.

They don't slow down her aim game. Why would she need to shield in the air when Mario's fireballs...........fall to the ground? The best option is to float/jump over them to get to you. You stop with the fireballs in fear of leaving yourself open and have to react to something else. Fireball problem solved. And options that lagged? I don't see with What. Peach lags with nothing when floating to something. Nothing at all. Peach float and dish out attacks at once. Peach can have a turnipin her hand while floating and still use her air attacks.

The Master of Mario said:

I don't think Peach will have an easy time approaching this match. Mario will also have a much easier time KOing. The only thing that keeps it from being in Mario's advantage is damage racking & combos which peach will have an easier time if she gets the right hits to land. Mario has to focus on punishing peach's laggy moves with damaging attacks F-smash and/or D-smash, U-air OOS, B-air OOS, Up-Special OOS, Shield Grabs, Blind-Up-smash OOS. Mario has to also control spacing with faster but less damaging hits N-air OOS/F-tilt/Jabs and pressure with fireballs/Fludd to stop her airgame so she retreats to the edge of the stage where Mario's Up-angled-F-smash/Charged-D-smash will KO her early.

I think the Matchup is around 50:50

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Peach has no laggy moves dude. I am not sure where you are getting this from. And Peach has many ways to approach someone.

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss> Reverse Bair
- Glide toss> Nair
- Glide toss> Grab
- Glide toss> Dtilt
- Glide toss> Fsmash (incase after the glide toss they wanna try and roll behind you, Fsmash hits from behind her as well, so total protection)
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair
- Ground floated attacks

Mario is like one solid option to kill Peach, and that is upsmash. And it is not that hard for mario to land one. But people tend to forget power is not everything. if Peach saves her moves, She can kill decently. And there is one thing you tend to forget. I have alot of options to kill someone more than you do. You have one-2 ways to kill me well. I have much more options to do so. Again Pwoer is not everything. People need to start realizing this. also:

stop her airgame so she retreats to the edge of the stage where Mario's Up-angled-F-smash/Charged-D-smash will KO her early.

No dude, if any Mario even gets away with that, the Peach recovered so stupidly. Don't think this is sometime solid cause it is not. All I would have to do is go below and away from the stage and sweetspot an up-B. You can't touch me. There is also many ways to avoid someting like this. I mean come on. I see you charging a Dsmash on the ledge and I am gonna try and grab it? If you ever did this to someone, they are not very smart at recovering or in general. This should not even be an option.

Matador, just ignore Viviff.

What do you all mean By WC?

.....just asking

mars16 said:

What do you all mean By WC?

.....just asking

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West Coast

Although, Vato, A2Z, and Kanzaki are always chill.

Matador, TheCubeStud is Viviff. I didn't realize that initially. He was the one shouting at you on the livestream. xD

He's good.

I lost to his Wolf, beat his Mario multiple times.

Dark, I think you misunderstood; TheCubeStud is saying Mario DOES lose to Peach.

Praxis said:

Matador, TheCubeStud is Viviff. I didn't realize that initially. He was the one shouting at you on the livestream. xD

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I know, and I was offended T_T

And he probably IS good. But wtf @ jumping in the thread, saying his piece, then getting pissy when I didn't drop to my knees and worship his opinion with no real persuasion. He didn't even really say anything substantial that we could potentially learn from.

The problem isn't his credibility, it's the lack of elaboration to emphasize his point. Waving around the "I played this awesome player and got *****, 100:0" will make heads roll. Factual information needs to come out of it.

EDIT: LOL @ Matador, Dark.Pch, and me posting at the same time.

It means that...EC stays up late posting on the boards, lol...

<---writing a paper.

I have to wake up for class in 5 hours. I need to get to sleep, lmao

.

Late night college homework.

I have Reading Week this week, so it's nice too relax .

Lol...I'm writing a paper too....or suppose to be D=

I've had this paper on my to-do list since BEFORE the snow fell. I've had an extra week extension and I'm still just starting like an hour ago. Procrastination's a *****.

Praxis said:

I lost to his Wolf, beat his Mario multiple times.

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I wonder why.. I know, because he doesn't main Mario. >.>.

Dark.Pch said:

Dtilt is nopt used as an approach. it is used as a spacing and baiting tool. Also helps with evasion.

And ground game slowlyer and laggier? Look at this video please. Dont worry about the sheik not being that good or w/e. I dont care for this match or winning. Just look at Peach's ground/pressure game in general. it is not slow. Mario can't pressure and be quick like this more than Peach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmulz-zYbA

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Shiek raises her shield in advance to what the player thinks is a coming attack around 0:08 when what shiek should have done is grab Peach. I mean isn't it obvious with a FRAME 7 Running grab and a fast pivot grab. Grab usually beats out attacks when they hit on the same frame and even if peach did jab she doesn't have that great followup since her jabs are laggier than Mario's. Even if the player still wanted to shield for whatever reason shiek could still have attacked out of shield against U-tilt with N-air OOS but the player has to let go of shield much much earlier. Mario would be able to Up-special OOS D-smash but shiek could probably Shield->spot-dodge->F-tilt/Dsmash since Sheik d-smash is frame 4 and tilts are frame 5.

Dark.Pch said:

They are not that good on Peach. Peach has no problem getting over then and close to Mario. And if you are moving back and pinned to a corner from this, it makes it easier to get to you and land a good hit.

They don't slow down her aim game. Why would she need to shield in the air when Mario's fireballs...........fall to the ground? The best option is to float/jump over them to get to you. You stop with the fireballs in fear of leaving yourself open and have to react to something else. Fireball problem solved. And options that lagged? I don't see with What. Peach lags with nothing when floating to something. Nothing at all. Peach float and dish out attacks at once. Peach can have a turnipin her hand while floating and still use her air attacks.



Peach has no laggy moves dude. I am not sure where you are getting this from. And Peach has many ways to approach someone.

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss> Reverse Bair
- Glide toss> Nair
- Glide toss> Grab
- Glide toss> Dtilt
- Glide toss> Fsmash (incase after the glide toss they wanna try and roll behind you, Fsmash hits from behind her as well, so total protection)
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair
- Ground floated attacks

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All of these Approaches use Peach's faster aerial movement than her ground game and usually autocancel. This doesn't show Peach's speed ON THE GROUND which is slower and/or laggier. Also, Because fireballs have a slight vertical knockback Mario can slow down autocancel with them easily and Fireballs mess up gliding pretty well. Since fireballs don't hit the same frame they come out mario can move behind the fireball and react to how the opponent does when the fireball will hit. He could shield in prediction of Toad coming out on the hit and then attack OOS. With even F-smash OOS since Toad has so much lag and like I said Peach's options for dealing with fireballs are LAGGY. Fireball comes out on Frame 14 so Mario just has SHFF->Fireball so that the fireball will hit on Frame 39 after he lands on the ground(~25 frames after the fireball comes out). From that point he can Shield/Attack and do whatever based on what the opponent does.

And if she tries to Jump over the Fireball Mario can Fludd her and her aerial game will be slowed down since fludd knocks her Up at around Full Jump height where it takes her 33 frames to get back to the ground

Dark.Pch said:

Mario is like one solid option to kill Peach, and that is upsmash. And it is not that hard for mario to land one. But people tend to forget power is not everything. if Peach saves her moves, She can kill decently. And there is one thing you tend to forget. I have alot of options to kill someone more than you do. You have one-2 ways to kill me well. I have much more options to do so. Again Pwoer is not everything. People need to start realizing this. also:

stop her airgame so she retreats to the edge of the stage where Mario's Up-angled-F-smash/Charged-D-smash will KO her early.

No dude, if any Mario even gets away with that, the Peach recovered so stupidly. Don't think this is sometime solid cause it is not. All I would have to do is go below and away from the stage and sweetspot an up-B. You can't touch me. There is also many ways to avoid someting like this. I mean come on. I see you charging a Dsmash on the ledge and I am gonna try and grab it? If you ever did this to someone, they are not very smart at recovering or in general. This should not even be an option.

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Actually I think Up-smash is the Worst way to try to KO peach since her Horizontal Movement is so great. She can DI Up-smash like crazy so you probably would want to use Mario's Up-angled-F-smash/Charged-D-smash. When I said get her to the edge of the stage I was talking about getting Peach near the edge not on the edge, Kinda like walk off edges where it's easier to KO by the edge of the stage(AKA flatzone). Mario can hit Peach horzizontally very far especially if she DI's away trying to evade or Down trying to D-air. Mario's Horizontal KO power is his strongest and KOs earlier than Up-smash because of peach's DI and that she's only moderately lightwieght.



Kinda Unrelated cause I don't want to bump the old Extensive Frame Data thread but:


Extensive Mario Frame Data should list the #of Frames Fireballs and Fludd last after they start on frame 14 and 20/21 since they last longer than 1 frame unlike other attacks. :/

Attacking needs to stop. I did learn some things about Peach has she has good baiting tools and that her ground game doesn't have much lag. I believe Mario's ground game is faster though, but not significantly anymore. I have also been fully persuaded that this MU is not 50:50. As I said before I do not think Peach "beats" Mario because I think to "beat" a character means that it's 60:40 or more, but I believe she has a slight advantage. I also think more people would agree with 55:45 Peach.

60 : 40 is merely a disadvantage, I wouldn't call it "x character beats y character" at all.

Master of Mario, I highly doubt you will ever be grabbing a good peach unless she makes some serious spacing errors.

yea, I wouldn't advise going for a grab unless your trying to follow up from a previous attack that connected close up..

mariobrouser said:

60 : 40 is merely a disadvantage, I wouldn't call it "x character beats y character" at all.

Master of Mario, I highly doubt you will ever be grabbing a good peach unless she makes some serious spacing errors.

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Shiek Runs faster than Mario and has a faster Dash Grab to make up for not as much Range. Mario has Stutter F-smash which is fast enough to hit Peach after U-tilt. Mario has better options to Attack peach OOS like B-air OOS after U-tilt/F-tilt. Mario also slides less than Shiek.

Peach's spacing is not that good and U-tilt takes 10 frames to come out so a buffered Dash grab from shiek would be faster. Mario's Tilts take HALF the frames of Peach's to attack if you try to reduce the lag of Peach's F-tilt. Otherwise it's laggier than Mario's D-tilt but it has more shield stun. Peach is not fast on the ground.

Peach will use Glide Toss to pressure shields not her ground game. Cape works well against 1 turnip as can catching turnips. Dash attack can even catch items and Mario's Dash Attack goes lower than the Turnip throw. Mario can play this matchup like Falco and Crouch under the Turnip throws if necessary. Mario's aerials can even cause problems because Peach has a very very bad air dodge. Peach has to use Turnips to pressure shields because she needs time to glide close enough to attack. Turnips have ~16-18 frames of lag that Peach has to glide during in order to attack up close. Her aerial attacks don't have much range and aren't disjointed. If Peach hits Mario's shield with Turnips Mario has to react with OOS attacks to attack fast enough Up-smash OOS, Up-special OOS, B-air OOS. Peach's Pressure will come more from Turnip Throw than her ground game.

mariobrouser said:

60 : 40 is merely a disadvantage, I wouldn't call it "x character beats y character" at all.

Master of Mario, I highly doubt you will ever be grabbing a good peach unless she makes some serious spacing errors.

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The scale is off from what it should be.

SWF sees the jump from 55:45 to 60:40 a little differently. That's why we have Marth and Snake down as 60:40.

I'm putting this as 55:45 Peach. Let's move on.

Alrighty, Inferno.

Well, Hero suggested Ike, and I'd be down too discuss that match-up as well.

camp him!!

you can block fair by reaction and just ps it, or you can just walk away for safe option.

jab is really gay though.

hippiedude92 said:

camp him!!

you can block fair by reaction and just ps it, or you can just walk away for safe option.

jab is really gay though.

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People like you are why I don't get involved in these MU discussions. Get informed or gtfo.

/inb4niddosaysthesamething

Vs Ike with 95% of the cast:

Shieldgrab him out of Jabs (time it right, you can shieldgrab his fist from virtually any distance)
Powershield F-air/N-air on reaction
Camp him with a projectile if you have one
U-throw -> free juggles. You can grab him out of virtually anything he does in the air and reset the trap if you have good reaction time.
Watch out for random Smashes and lame attempts to U-air juggle, save B reversals and jumps for dodging those on reaction

Mario stuff: If I counted correctly, you can Up-B, N-air, U-air, and U-smash (back hit) out of shield against Ike's Jab with perfect timing. U-smash out of shield in general really limits this character.

FLUDD/Cape him under stage when he recovers for easy gimps. And of course FLUDD him out of QD for easy gimps as well.

Reverse F-smash is awesome against this laggy character for outranging a lot of his moves.

Before this gets completely started, I want both sides to look at this, then go from there.

---

Options per Situation

Approach

Defense

Edgeguard

Recovery

Margin of Error

Degree of Punishment

Capitalization

Character Attributes

Strengths

Weaknesses

Covering Weaknesses

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power

Gimp Ability

Overall

**** Advantage
Heavy Advantage
Advantage
Slight Advantage
Even
Slight Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Heavy Disadvantage
Unwinnable

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We have a history of going into needless arguments, so if we compare and contrast with the format provided (and any extra notes I suppose), then we can all settle on an accurate ratio.

A2ZOMG said:

Vs Ike with 95% of the cast:

Shieldgrab him out of Jabs (time it right, you can shieldgrab his fist from virtually any distance)
Powershield F-air/N-air on reaction
Camp him with a projectile if you have one
U-throw -> free juggles. You can grab him out of whatever he does in the air and reset the trap if you have good reaction time.
Watch out for random Smashes, save B reversals and jumps for dodging those on reaction

Mario stuff: If I counted correctly, you can Up-B, N-air, U-air, and U-smash (back hit) out of shield against Ike's Jab with perfect timing.

FLUDD/Cape him under stage when he recovers for easy gimps. And of course FLUDD him out of QD for easy gimps as well.

Reverse F-smash is awesome against this laggy character for outranging a lot of his moves.

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The way you put that makes it sound like it's 90-10 Mario's favor. A good Ike won't be letting himself get shield-grabbed out of jabs every time. First of all they won't be jabbing your shield, they'll be grabbing you if all you're doing is standing around waiting to PS aerials and jabs.

We're not going to be using Fair and Nair at times when you're completely focused and ready to PS on reaction, and even if we do, we're going to be spacing them well enough that you can't easily punish them.

Mario's fireballs are easy for Ike to approach on. If every Mario player can PS Ike's aerials on reaction every time, then every Ike player can PS fireballs coming from three Marios at once on all sides no problem.

You can't grab us after an Fair or an Nair if we space properly (which you have to assume we will... because we will). And if you do go for a grab after either of those, we'll jab you.

Why would we do 'random smashes'? The only time we're going to be using our smash attacks is when we've baited you into doing something that will leave you open for the smash to hit. A good Ike player does not perform 'random smashes'. Unless we're discussing match-ups for 'With Anyone' WiFi scrubs here? That would explain a lot.

If we recover low with Aether it's almost impossible to gimp it with FLUDD and if you're just gonna go for a cape every time it's easy to maneuver Aether to avoid that as well. And we won't be using QD for our recovery unless an Aether couldn't possibly make it back, in which case you might as well just edge-hog.

Nysyarc said:

People like you are why I don't get involved in these MU discussions. Get informed or gtfo.

/inb4niddosaysthesamething

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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=261496

check it out broski.

Just going to paste what i had posted from the last time we discussed this matchup but, with a few revisions. I feel what i said still stands...

vato_break said:

I play this guy name slayn on a daily Basis..http://allisbrawl.com/history.aspx?id=8640 <-tourney record

anyway this guy is my training partner and is really legit he beat m2k in ike dittos at SCSA#4 and beat praxis in a mm

Mario vs ike is 55:45 marios favor. Mario vs. ike is really who can make better reads and space better. Camping makes this match up slightly in marios favor. The match can go either way when stage dependant and who ever has better control on that stage. Ike's jab is really good too...mario can challenge ike's first two jabs with his one but, ike last jab will win. Best option would sheild and use OOS options(ike has a very good jab cancel so you would have to upB oos if he's boxing your sheild). ike also has a bit of lag after his last jab which after is wiffed is when you will want to punish.

Ike is kinda easy to gimp, most ikes will recover low with upB and be able to avoid a fludd gimp so what you will want to do is either sheild his upB(pointing your shield up and towards him can prevent a sheild poke) and punish IF he lands on stage, drop down and cape(after ike throws his sword up from his upB he is completely open),you can also cape stall on the ledge to regian invisibilty frames...you can also cape the upB at it's peak. You can also use fireballs if ike doesn't space his recovery properly aswell .Both characters can punish each other well if either makes a bad sidestep or airdodge.Mario should be going for gimps rather than kills, it's kinda hard to kill ike(with good di).

You can simply block alot of his attacks and punish. Fludd ledge canceling will auto ko ike. Generaly in this matchup you want to just build enough damage where your able to gimp ike because actually killing him is more difficult and gimps are more reliable.

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also DI THE JAB COMBO!!

Nysyarc said:

The way you put that makes it sound like it's 90-10 Mario's favor. A good Ike won't be letting himself get shield-grabbed out of jabs every time. First of all they won't be jabbing your shield, they'll be grabbing you if all you're doing is standing around waiting to PS aerials and jabs.

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I say 6/4 Mario's favor personally.

Ike doesn't have the grab range to pressure you with grab consistently, so it's a pretty significant risk for him to blindly grab. And if all Ike can do is fish for grabs, he's having a lot of trouble, especially since his grab reward is pretty low overall without random wall gimmicks.

We're not going to be using Fair and Nair at times when you're completely focused and ready to PS on reaction, and even if we do, we're going to be spacing them well enough that you can't easily punish them.

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And what can Ike do if the opponent waits? He's at a disadvantage. His options are much less safe and more reactable.

Mario's fireballs are easy for Ike to approach on. If every Mario player can PS Ike's aerials on reaction every time, then every Ike player can PS fireballs coming from three Marios at once on all sides no problem.

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True, but it's still out of Ike's favor when both players wait. Mario can outspace most of his moves with F-smash and has more options to punish out of shield. The threat of fireballs also prevents Ike from using aerials with impunity at any rate.

You can't grab us after an Fair or an Nair if we space properly (which you have to assume we will... because we will). And if you do go for a grab after either of those, we'll jab you.

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Mario can Up-smash out of shield against the N-air, and both aerials get punished on powershield. F-smash also can outrange both moves and punish.

Why would we do 'random smashes'? The only time we're going to be using our smash attacks is when we've baited you into doing something that will leave you open for the smash to hit. A good Ike player does not perform 'random smashes'. Unless we're discussing match-ups for 'With Anyone' WiFi scrubs here? That would explain a lot.

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Ike baiting into a Smash can be avoided on reaction since the startup on his stuff is huge, so getting hit by his Smashes generally means his opponent made a huge mistake.

If we recover low with Aether it's almost impossible to gimp it with FLUDD and if you're just gonna go for a cape every time it's easy to maneuver Aether to avoid that as well. And we won't be using QD for our recovery unless an Aether couldn't possibly make it back, in which case you might as well just edge-hog.

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FLUDD Ike under stage and he's not making it back. You can ask BO X7 and Renegade about that.

A2ZOMG said:

Ike baiting into a Smash can be avoided on reaction since the startup on his stuff is huge, so getting hit by his Smashes generally means his opponent made a huge mistake.

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This would fall into Ike's "Degree of Punishment". This means Ike's captialization upon Mario's mistakes is absolutely huge. It should be noted.

The only one of those Smashes that has a remotely legitimate chance of hitting is Up-smash, and uncharged it's not THAT spectacular when you DI it. 100% on FD no DI isn't necessarily weak, but isn't exactly what I'd call huge punishment when Mario can do similar with his more practical F-smash.

He can try to also kill with U-air and B-air. His U-air is a powerful KO move...that is also very easily avoided as well due to how bad Ike's mobility is. His B-air I guess isn't complete fail, but killing at 114% center FD again isn't what I'd call amazingly early.

I see you mentioned U-Smash, but don't mention when it's charged. I assume you believe it wouldn't hit Mario. But remember, we do the same thing with sliding U-Smash. To say it would never hit is what would be called a double-standard.

To note, I think this is 60:40 Mario myself, but that's just my personal opinion. Instead A2, how about we talk about what Ike can do to Mario for matter of comparison?

What Ike can do too Mario.

He can weave in and out pretty well with f-air, a very good spacing tool.

His jabs are pretty annoying too deal with, and if we get too predictable with up B, he can just cancel his Jabs and Shield before we use up B (correct me if I'm wrong.) Either way they do a lot of damage.

His KO options, well yea it's without a doubt Ike can KO a lot easier then Mario can, it's just getting the hit. I say b-air is a wonderful way to KO Mario. Also his up smash, it's range is huge and deceiving! Also, if we wiff a recovery, we're going to be hit with f-smash.

Pretty much Ike wins in damage output, and KO'ing (in my opinion), I probably missed a ton of things.

Yeah, Ike can kill you at around 90-100% with slightly charged Up-smash factoring of course that you're DIing it. Compare to around 115-125% if Mario lands a fresh slightly charged Up-smash (not that Up-smash will be fresh against Ike, you're better off juggling him with it for damage purposes)

Ike's Jabs are not safe on block, and while they have good range, properly timed shieldgrabs will grab his fist before he can Jab cancel. His single Jab is -12 on block, and if he continues the Jab sequence, it's still like -9 on block before the 2nd Jab hits. As you can see from the numbers, Mario has a number of options available for punishing blocked Jabs if you have good timing, and consider that it's really Ike's only decent ground move, you should be expecting this move a lot. It's also worthwhile to note that Ike is one of those characters with 7 frame shieldgrabs who cannot grab in between hits of Mario's Jab combo (which is -6 between hits).

Ike's main focus on this matchup is to try to outspace Mario with Jabs and aerials, but this isn't a very secure strategy for him. His Jab is annoying, but as stated, it's not safe on block, and his grabs really aren't good enough to reliably threaten you. His aerials have massive range but are unsafe when powershielded or if Mario throws a fireball, and plus, Ike actually has to worry about getting outranged by Mario's powerful F-smash. When Ike does Jab you, he can Jab cancel into more Jabs or grabs assuming you don't SDI out of range. If he grabs you, it's not much to worry about. He does have a B-throw -> Dash attack combo that works as long as B-throw doesn't put you in tumble. Don't be stupid and let it surprise you by trying to DI away from it. His other throws kinda have setup value, except you can avoid everything else Ike does on reaction very easily and there is nothing else Ike can do to followup after whiffing a move. At like 200% or something his D-throw if fresh can be used as a KO move.

The only one of Ike's aerials that comes out before reaction time is B-air, which can be safe for Ike if he's able to retreat it. You don't really have to worry about Ike edgeguarding you offstage since there is really nothing he can do to people who airdodge on reaction, although smart Ike players may try to bypass that problem by edgeguarding you with U-air and hoping for a vertical kill (shouldn't be a huge problem to avoid with fireballs and Cape Stalling as options to mix up when you DI correctly). What will be slightly harder is getting up from the ledge. Just edgecamp him until he whiffs a move, and ledgehop Fireballs are a good option for bypassing RCO if necessary. If I'm correct, properly timed Down-angled F-smashes CAN in fact hit Ike out of Aether recoveries (there is a moment after Ike throws the sword up that there is no hitbox), I just don't think anyone of us has explored that possibility.