The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Zankoku]

ftilt usmash KO setup won't happen very often if you don't let her ftilt you much in the first place, since it relies on like.... 5 or 6 ftilts to be on her decay list to actually combo.

Matchup's definitely even or very close to it.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm thinking 50:50 still...there's no real glaring advantage that either character has over the other. They both rack up damage quickly and killing isn't too difficult...

Needles. I think it's 55-45 Sheik.

 

[Matador]

Needles. I think it's 55-45 Sheik.

How d'you figure? How do they limit our options in this match-up?

 

[-Mars-]

They force you to approach and they are superior to fireballs. It's not HUGE but it does factor into the matchup.

 

[Famous]

I was thinking it's even...Haven't played Neo's or Crosses Sheik since...idk but the MU seemed even if not in our favor...Didn't even get F-tilt locked at all...I naired or SDI away...The only thing sheik was killing me with was U-Smash-Bair...I lived well over 180 every stock...

 

[Matador]

How do they force approaches if cape nullifies them?

What's more, why would forcing an approach out of us mean a disadvantage? I could see if approaching Sheik as Mario were difficult like vs Marth or something, but the usual fireball approach and aerial spacing aren't necessarily limited by Sheik in any way more than any other match-up...approach for either character isn't difficult.

I suppose if it's a campfest, needles pose a bit of a threat, but as I said before, cape nullifies them for the most part, and we have fireballs and Fludd to fire back. If anything, we can camp just as hard, and have better OOS options should you need to approach.

 

[HeroMystic]

Needles aren't superior to fireballs.

Not seeing 55:45 on either side. This match-up is probably the most solid even out of any of Mario's MUs.

 

[Matador]

Needles aren't superior to fireballs.

IT'S A TRAP!

Needles > fireballs in alot of ways...damage is a big positive...they also have weird properties so they can't be swatted away like fireballs can be. They're also a lot faster.

Fireballs are better for approaching, and forcing openings imo...but that's it.

Edit: Needles are pretty bad for shields too IIRC...they eat them up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've played this matchup a **** ton. My friend TonyGuacamole is an amazing Sheik user.

Sheik wins it SLIGHTLY. like really really super slightly, but it's definitely in her advantage.

Sheik is able to punish MUCH more consistently than Mario. There are very few safe approaches against this character, and she technically outpokes you. Mario does have some sick combos and better kill moves and Sheik is easier to edgeguard, but Sheik is still better than Mario on stage.

 

[Famous]

You shouldn't be throwing fireballs from a certain distance to begin with...

Matadors got the right idea...Mostly used for approaching purposes rather than camping in this MU...

Actually, you shouldn't really be camping in this MU

 

[HeroMystic]

No, seriously, they're not better. Take a few things in consideration.

Needles:
+Superior Range
+Very Fast
+Transcended Priority
+Damage
-Despite the range, small hitbox.
-Despite the damage, takes a large amount of time to charge up, meaning they cannot be spammed.
-Needles are fixed to be thrown downwards when aerial.

Fireballs
+Approach tool.
+Spammable.
+Can be mobile while firing.
+Forces openings and can hinder movement a lot more than Needles can.
-Easily powershielded.
-Meh range (Medium).
-Meh damage per hit.
-Affected by gravity.

Tell me how needles are superior.

And yeah, no. NEITHER character should be camping in this MU anyway. Not worth it.

 

[Matador]

I've played this matchup a **** ton. My friend TonyGuacamole is an amazing Sheik user.

Sheik wins it SLIGHTLY. like really really super slightly, but it's definitely in her advantage.

Sheik is able to punish MUCH more consistently than Mario. There are very few safe approaches against this character, and she technically outpokes you. Mario does have some sick combos and better kill moves and Sheik is easier to edgeguard, but Sheik is still better than Mario on stage.

How do we have few safe approach options? What limits them?

Ftilt? Dtilt? Needles? Zelda (lmfao, get @ my current events comedy)?

I find that fireballs, Usmash, Utilt, and grab mix-ups are efficient at getting inside most of the time vs her options.

That, and approaching us has the potential to be difficult for Sheik as well. Usmash beats out a great deal of her attacks and is good OOS, as well as upB. Fsmash outranges and outprioritizes a ton of her attacks and KOs her at relatively low percentages as well.

I'll agree with punishment consistency because she DOES have more true combos and good combos in general...but everything else evens it out imo.

Edit @ Hero: They're better at camping and forcing approaches. Overall, I dunno...fireballs have their merits as well.

Mars was referring to forcing approaches I'm guessing, and that's pretty accurate.

 

[HeroMystic]

Edit @ Hero: They're better at camping and forcing approaches. Overall, I dunno...fireballs have their merits as well.

Mars was referring to forcing approaches I'm guessing, and that's pretty accurate.

You're telling me why, but you're not telling me how.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, seriously, they're not better. Take a few things in consideration.

Needles:
+Superior Range
+Very Fast
+Transcended Priority
+Damage
-Despite the range, small hitbox.
-Despite the damage, takes a large amount of time to charge up, meaning they cannot be spammed.
-Needles are fixed to be thrown downwards when aerial.

Fireballs
+Approach tool.
+Spammable.
+Can be mobile while firing.
+Forces openings and can hinder movement a lot more than Needles can.
-Easily powershielded.
-Meh range (Medium).
-Meh damage per hit.
-Affected by gravity.

Tell me how needles are superior.

And yeah, no. NEITHER character should be camping in this MU anyway. Not worth it.

You're completely wrong about some things.

Needles can be spammed just fine, but any good player in this matchup is not going to projectile spam. Needles are MUCH harder to avoid than fireballs due to how fast they are. They're basically on a level comparable to Falco's lasers in how efficiently they punish moves. You CANNOT jump safely against this character due to needles. If she calls a jump, you get punished plain and simple. She also can dash in to punish any called commitment, which forces Mario to play a grounded poke game, which CAN shut down her punish game very consistently, but loses once Sheik realizes that she can poke you back.

Plus, the downwards angle on aerial Needles is EXTREMELY useful. This is hard as hell to counter on reaction, and it's wonderful for edgeguarding as well.

 

[Matador]

You're telling me why, but you're not telling me how.

Needles deal MUCH more damage if you're caught not shielding, and if you ARE shielding, your shield is trashed. You can't knock them away, so your only real options to deal with them are to hit the ledge or try to jump over them... and both can be very dangerous. You can't powershield them either or knock them away...so from the other side of the stage, you're being pressured and either need to approach or take the risks of competing with them.

Yeah, they take time to charge and can't be spammed very well...but in the grand scheme of things, they don't outweigh the disadvantages of Mario's fireballs when used to camp.

Fireballs can be easily powershielded, are slow, don't deal much damage or weaken shields, and they fizzle out halfway across the stage. You can spam them...but what good is that going to do if I can powershield or reliably swat them away? The reward isn't even much if you manage to land a few hits.

And yeah, they can be used when retreating, but if the other person is approaching while powershielding the fireballs you're tossing at them, you are at a disadvantage...fireballs have cooldown lag...punishable cooldown lag.

Really, you answered it yourself when you listed their pros and cons...fireballs excel at approaching...not camping. Mars was probably referring to forcing approaches and camping when he made his remark.

 

[HeroMystic]

You're completely wrong about some things.

Tell me what I was wrong in.

Needles can be spammed just fine, but any good player in this matchup is not going to projectile spam. Needles are MUCH harder to avoid than fireballs due to how fast they are. They're basically on a level comparable to Falco's lasers in how efficiently they punish moves. You CANNOT jump safely against this character due to needles. If she calls a jump, you get punished plain and simple.

Anything not in bold I agree with. Anything not quoted I deem irrelevant to the argument. Needles aren't as spammable as fireballs unless you're completely fine with 2% damage. I also see you're beginning to overrate needles as they seem comparable to the best projectile in the game, which is ********. And you're extremely vague on how Mario can't safely jump. In fact I can't even take that argument seriously. Be more specific. Needles can't let Mario jump. HOW?

@Matador: Much better. Though just because Needles are superior at camping doesn't mean they're superior overall.

 

[Matador]

@Matador: Much better. Though just because Needles are superior at camping doesn't mean they're superior overall.

They both have their merits as projectiles...but I think the better projectile comes down to preference.

The ability to chase a fireball and follow-up similar to how Akuma can follow his aerial fireballs on SF for rushdown and pressure is invaluable to some playstyles like my own (which is why I play both).

However, the ability to FORCE your opponent to approach and effectively prevent them from doing that wins matches.

Superior overall? I disagree. That kind of thing is impossible to measure, especially since these projectiles are polar opposites in their respective properties and usage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tell me what I was wrong in.


Anything not in bold I agree with. Anything not quoted I deem irrelevant to the argument. Needles aren't as spammable as fireballs unless you're completely fine with 2% damage. I also see you're beginning to overrate needles as they seem comparable to the best projectile in the game, which is ********. And you're extremely vague on how Mario can't safely jump. In fact I can't even take that argument seriously. Be more specific. Needles can't let Mario jump. HOW?

@Matador: Much better. Though just because Needles are superior at camping doesn't mean they're superior overall.

You jump against Sheik, you have one option that MIGHT save you from getting punished. You can Cape stall and hope it deflects/avoids the needles, but if she reacts to it, you still get punished as you land.

Any whiffed move and airdodging to the ground gets punished by needles if the Sheik player is any good. Whiffing against Sheik is REALLY easy too since she has the speed to run away from you. B reversal needle camping > Mario's approaches. Also, it's very difficult to punish Sheik's vertical spacing game on reaction.

I never said Needles were comparable to Falco's lasers overall, but that they are extremely good at punishing any commitment.

At any rate Sheik forces you to approach even if she gets a 2% lead, and pinning her down is no simple task. If she knows how to use the chain, it is also very difficult to touch her (you can only fireball camp to punish it, which is otherwise not safe).

You have NO truly safe approaches against this character besides F-tilt pokes, but if Sheik simply pokes you back, the matchup becomes noticeably uphill.

 

[HeroMystic]

One thing I noticed:

You have NO truly safe approaches against this character besides F-tilt pokes, but if Sheik simply pokes you back, the matchup becomes noticeably uphill.

These quotes don't go together, and you're being inconsistent. So what's your judgement on the match-up? What does Mario do to stop this from being 80:20 Shiek, because that's what you're making it sound like. A character with no safe options against another character is an assload more than 55:45 Shiek.

I'm really missing my format right now, but meh.

 

[Famous]

Needles have to much lag afterwards for you NOT to somehow get inside...She also can't kill you if she doesn't approach...

Cape stalling and wave bouncing balls is more than enough to avoid getting punished from the air...Needles are getting overrated

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a very technical matchup for Sheik, and Mario combos/edgeguards her very efficiently and scores the KO significantly more easily.

Mario stops her from punishing as she pleases through stage control and F-tilt/Jab poking, but has to take more risks to maintain control.

 

[Famous]

Also, Yea needles are better than fireballs in terms of camping but we are making it seem that Mario/Sheik are standing in one spot throwing **** the entire match...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wasn't implying that. I was implying that Sheik would be abusing her superior mobility and ability to B reverse needles to make it a total pain in the *** to approach her without taking damage.

Sheik is frail and doesn't have a ton of room for error, but she has many more options for controlling the match.

 

[Matador]

I'm not seeing this wall that Sheik is theoretically able to erect in front of us with needles and Ftilt...

They make you wary while approaching, but they aren't DK's Bair/Ftilt or Marth's spacing shenanigans...it's not hard to approach Sheik if you understand her options and don't go running directly at her. You'll eat an Ftilt every time.

She can punish predicted movements...much like we can.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK's F-tilt and B-air are fairly easy to defend and punish from a neutral position. Sheik's vertical spacing with aerials (F-air/B-air) and her needle camping are NOT easy to defend and punish against.

She's not DK either in that you win up close. She's a VERY good closeup fighter as well.

 

[HeroMystic]

I wasn't implying that. I was implying that Sheik would be abusing her superior mobility and ability to B reverse needles to make it a total pain in the *** to approach her without taking damage.

Because suddenly fireballs don't exist.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik's needles are better than your fireballs. They start up and move faster and have more range. Sheik's needles punish ANY commitment. Fireballs don't and are very easy for Sheik to avoid.

Throwing a fireball in general is a risk in this matchup due to the fact that Sheik simply has better camping than you do.

 

[Insetick]

A2ZOMG and HeroMystic, I think you should play a few games to see how the matchup plays out. From what I've seen in the last two pages, you're too biased towards your own characters to totally agree on a single conclusion.

 

[HeroMystic]

So suddenly using Fireballs to approach is a giant no-no.

EDIT: Nah, not really. I believe this match-up is dead even. I'm just trying to get more information out of him because he's far too vague and exaggerates his points.

EDIT2: Also, I hate WiFi and I wouldn't rely on A2's skill with Shiek for this MU. A lot of this is theory-crafted mess that wouldn't be referenced perfectly in reality.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dude, I play a pro Sheik like all the time. I know this matchup in and out and go virtually even with my friend.

You obviously have never played a Sheik that has good reactions and knows how to time needles to punish commitments. Then after getting past that, it's a headache to deal with her grabs and fastfalled aerials

 

[HeroMystic]

Dude, I play a pro Sheik like all the time. I know this matchup in and out and go virtually even with my friend.

Because, obviously, the character is the problem and not the player. It's never player skill. Screw that, it's the character.

Give a full analysis on both characters, then I'll begin to take you seriously.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I already explained their advantages.

Sheik outcamps Mario and is very difficult for Mario to approach safely due to her high mobility (including good fastfall speed). She has needles which punish virtually anything, and her fastfalled aerials can't be shieldgrabbed and have a good chance of shield poking. Her dashgrab also controls a lot of space.

Mario can shut down attempts to dash punish with intelligent use of tilts and Jabs, but Sheik also outpokes him, so this is no simple task to do. Mario however has good combos on her, better KO moves, and edgeguards her better (Sheik's recovery is very bad, hog the ledge and it's usually a free hit).

All in all Sheik's superior control game makes this matchup in her favor, but it's balanced by the fact that she is frail, and Mario can finish her off more efficiently in most situations.

 

[Famous]

This MU is even...racking damage means nothing if you can't kill and believe me...It takes Sheik forever to kill Mario

PvP Vs CvC is all the same if both players know the M...Doesn't apply to all MU's though sadly...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik kills Mario in the 180s with aerials I guess, but her Smashes, and Up-B are also good KO moves.

Treat Sheik's Up-B like a spotdodge. It dodges moves and punishes your commitment, and it packs a decent punch.

 

[HeroMystic]

I already explained their advantages.

Sheik outcamps Mario and is very difficult for Mario to approach safely due to her high mobility (including good fastfall speed). She has needles which punish virtually anything, and her fastfalled aerials can't be shieldgrabbed and have a good chance of shield poking. Her dashgrab also controls a lot of space.

Mario can shut down attempts to dash punish with intelligent use of tilts and Jabs, but Sheik also outpokes him, so this is no simple task to do. Mario however has good combos on her, better KO moves, and edgeguards her better (Sheik's recovery is very bad, hog the ledge and it's usually a free hit).

All in all Sheik's superior control game makes this matchup in her favor, but it's balanced by the fact that she is frail, and Mario can finish her off more efficiently in most situations.

This is not an analysis. This is just a garbled mess consisting of "U! No U!".

Shiek can outcamp, outpoke, and outspace Mario, yet this MU is only slightly in Shiek's favor. By your "analysis", this is far into Shiek's advantage, right up there with Chaingrab. Now, you're either lying, withholding information, or your grasp of MU analysis are very faulty.

 

[A2ZOMG]

HeroMystic, stop being unreasonable.

Sheik's margin of error is much lower than Mario's, hence why the matchup is close.

This does not change the fact that she has better tools for camping and punishing and limiting your options. Her combination of mobility and longer ranged poke options ensures that.

Falco does basically the same thing to Mario and we have him as a 55/45 in his favor.

This matchup is definitely harder than Luigi and Donkey Kong, which are in fact matchups that we can call even.

This is why I wanted to discuss the matchup. People like you obviously don't know why this is a hard matchup (more difficult than unfavorable). It forces Mario to play completely differently than he does normally, since the usual aerial spacing strategies are not very safe against a character who has good ground mobility and projectiles for punishing. Yeah I mean of course Mario can space stuff on shield safely, but it hardly matters when this character does just fine staying out of your range and moving in to punish. You have to stay grounded so that she never sees an opportunity to punish you, and from there you limit her space and put pressure on her.

If Mario had a few more reliable ground options, he would have this matchup easily, but instead he has to settle for moderately iffy options that are outranged by Sheik's pokes. Sheik of course is punishable when she whiffs and can get comboed a lot and ***** offstage really easily, but her wins onstage overall means that she will do more damage than you. And again, you don't want to whiff when you're at a KO percent lest she is ready to do a DACUS.

 

[Matador]

Cape, Fsmash, reverse Usmash, and Utilt especially > her pokes aren't they?

There's the issue of spacing them, but the point is that we have options for her pokes that outright beat hers...and we also have fireballs for added pressure.

 

[HeroMystic]

This matchup is definitely harder than Luigi and Donkey Kong, which are in fact matchups that we can call even.

Subjective at this point.

This is why I wanted to discuss the matchup. People like you obviously don't know why this is a hard matchup (more difficult than unfavorable).

In which case you're saying this isn't 45:55 Shiek.

I'm not demanding to change your viewpoint. I'm demanding consistency. I want words to back up your claims instead of contradicting them. That's why I've been dancing around you the entire time because frankly you don't have a full grasp at analyzing MUs. This is mainly what my format was for.

Remember, if you say "I played this pro player that mains this character, so I know the MU", I'll more than likely take your post with a grain of salt. Experience =/= Knowledge, and I don't really care for MUs being discussed in that way. They're subjective and overall inflicts bias.

Overall, I'm done with this MU talk, so take this discussion for what it's worth. I got a tourney tomorrow and I gotta rest up and prepare myself. I really hope more Shiek mains pop up after this post.

 

[Inferno3044]

Falco does basically the same thing to Mario and we have him as a 55/45 in his favor.

Are you really relating Sheik to Falco? SH Double Lasers are amazing, has a chaingrab to about 40% if done right and that doesn't include a dair, has amazing camping, racking damage, and decent kill power. The reason it's only slightly his advantage is because he's easily gimped and we can rack up damage easily on him. If we couldn't do that, we'd be screwed.

This is why I wanted to discuss the matchup. People like you obviously don't know why this is a hard matchup (more difficult than unfavorable). It forces Mario to play completely differently than he does normally, since the usual aerial spacing strategies are not very safe against a character who has good ground mobility and projectiles for punishing. Yeah I mean of course Mario can space stuff on shield safely, but it hardly matters when this character does just fine staying out of your range and moving in to punish. You have to stay grounded so that she never sees an opportunity to punish you, and from there you limit her space and put pressure on her.

Having to play a MU differently is different does not mean it's a bad MU. It means we have to adpat. I believe Shiek doesn't have good priority and therefore Nair is very helpful. We can always approach on the groung and RAR bairs if being in the air so much isn't good.[/QUOTE]

 

[Flameleon]

-The wonders of Needles xD, c'mon dudz, at FD, we can camp even harder than Sheik, because him...can only shot Needles ground-based, coz, in the air, they're not really useful, maybe if they want to space but we can always control someone with Fludd, and FH Fireballz can overcome this camping battle, well, another thing that we can exploit is the power of our Fsmash, we can kill Sheik really soon with it, and if not, then we can go for a gimp, Nair,UpB and Dair>Sheiks Ftilt, don't be too confident too just because Sheik has "not so much killing power", because, they can really gimp us with DoubleFairs>Chain to edgehog or stuff like that...i think that it's a 55-45 for us in a high ceiling stage : ) -