The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

A2ZOMG said:

If I'm correct, properly timed Down-angled F-smashes CAN in fact hit Ike out of Aether recoveries (there is a moment after Ike throws the sword up that there is no hitbox), I just don't think anyone of us has explored that possibility.

Click to expand...

<---Has done this a few times actually.

Down-angled Fsmash off the ledge can hit anyone who doesn't auto-ledgegrab instantly when they do their upB (i.e. Wario, Ike, Sonic)

Well, that's a huge plus for Mario. >_>

Not really, lol. The list is small.

What's more, the timing is rather strict. His sword gives him a bit of protection.

Well either way at least you told me that it's possible, and if I ever get to it, I'll try to actually practice the timing to F-smash him out of low Aether recoveries.

I'm gonna go by this list and hopefully we'll end up with an official outline for this MU.


Options per Situation

Approach

Ike: The most common and best idea is to space fair. It has a lot of range and some good damage output. Unfortunately, fair is very slow and can be shielded on reaction.

Mario: Use fireballs and/or space bair until you get in. Ike can't swat them like some other characters because he doesn't have a move fast enough to swat a fireball and not be put in a place to be easily punished. Ike should shield them.

Defense

Ike: A move that hits his shield is able to either be grabbed (if its range isn't bad. I know its range) or a jab lock. His jab is really good and stops a fair amount of our ground game. If Ike reads Mario decently, we'll get punished by some jab locks.

Mario: Camp him with fireballs. It will effectively force an approach. Punish his fair when he does approach. If you are close enough, hit him before he hits you. If you aren't just shield it on reaction. FLUDD will also mess up his spacing.

Edgeguard

Ike: I think fair can be used, but not fully sure. Dair is a very strong spike.

Mario: Hit him with quick aerials and/or fireballs. It's very effective against Ike

Recovery

Ike: Pretty bad. Ike is practically forced to recover high because Mario can easily gimp him if he recovers from low or mid level.

Mario: It's decent. Sort of one-way if you know what I mean, but he has mix ups that he can do to help him.

Margin of Error

Degree of Punishment

Ike: Jab lock. It can punish some approaches and rack some good damage on us. His smashes can be used to punish air dodges, side steps, etc. and kill at very low percents

Mario: Can hit him with fast pokes before he can do much. This will end up turning into combos, juggles, and strings. Most of his moves are slow enough to punish like this. Stutter-stepped Fsmash can be used to punish whiffed moves since it outranges most of his moves

Character Attributes

Strengths

Ike: Very strong, sorta heavy around upper mid-weight, long range/disjoints

Mario: Very fast, little lag, has a projectile, very good edgeguarding and gimping

Weaknesses

Ike: Very slow and laggy moves, gimpable recovery

Mario: Small range, significantly less killpower than Ike

Covering Weaknesses

Ike: I don't know fully.

Mario: DO NOT SPOTDODGE, AIRDODGE, OR ROLL!! These three things are what primarily get punished by Ike's smashes. Don't do these and you'll get hit by much fewer smashes.

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power

Ike: Very strong smashes. Will kill at low percents. Spike will kill at low percents also. Other moves have pretty good kill power.

Mario: Mediocre. Probably kill him at 110% minimum from Fsmash. Usmash at a bit higher.

Gimp Ability

Ike: His spike is all I can think of right now and that won't hit much.

Mario: Very good. FLUDD destroys his recoveries by pushing his aether back making him unable to grab the ledge or by pushing him back during quick draw freefall state

Overall

Advantage: 60:40

I plan to add on to this as we progress.

Vato said something about that it's about reading each other. The thing is that Ike is a very readable character. The average person's reaction time is equal to about 12 frames. All of this moves are at that speed or slower except for jab and bair iirc. Because of this, Mario can react at certain points instead of having to fully read Ike. Ike has to read Mario though because most of his moves come out faster than 12 frames.

Questions for Ike players:

1. How does Ike cover his weaknesses?
2. How often will Ike get gimped?

Ike vs Mario

This is Mario's Match....to me

Mario has the projectile, he can gimp him kinda easy and is faster
Mario can put alot of pressure on Ike.....

But I Ike is also good..
He is his weight, and lots of kill power....And good range, with priority


But what pisses Ike off is the fireballs

55:45 Mario

I don't have much Ike experience, but I'd listen to Vato on this match up.

Going to add on and critique some of the analysis Inferno made.

Inferno3044 said:

Options per Situation

Approach

Ike: The most common and best idea is to space fair. It has a lot of range and some good damage output. Unfortunately, fair is very slow and can be shielded on reaction.

Mario: Use fireballs and/or space bair until you get in. Ike can't swat them like some other characters because he doesn't have a move fast enough to swat a fireball and not be put in a place to be easily punished. Ike should shield them.

Click to expand...

Ike: This is actually false. The most common approach is actually N-air since it true-combos into Jab or B-air if it's a blind N-air. And of course from jab you can cancel into grabs for more damage output. Ike can also Running Shield to approach from the ground, so he can easily use his jabs.

Mario: Applying vertical spacing with D-air to avoid getting jabbed works, and also using D-air to harass Ike's shield and defensive style is effective.

Defense

Ike: A move that hits his shield is able to either be grabbed (if its range isn't bad. I know its range) or a jab lock. His jab is really good and stops a fair amount of our ground game. If Ike reads Mario decently, we'll get punished by some jab locks.

Mario: Camp him with fireballs. It will effectively force an approach. Punish his fair when he does approach. If you are close enough, hit him before he hits you. If you aren't just shield it on reaction. FLUDD will also mess up his spacing.

Click to expand...

Ike: Few problems here. Mario cannot be jab locked legitimately unless you don't do anything. Mario can easily just Up-B out of it, so Jab locks are out of the question. If you use vertical spacing with B-air (90 degree angle), then Ike cannot shield grab it.

Mario: Since N-air wasn't talked about I'll say it here. An Ike that spaces N-air cannot be punished on block. Simply said, hitting with N-air as soon as you hit the ground allows Ike to immediately go into jab, but he can also shield to avoid punishment. To punish a spaced N-air you'll have to use U-tilt or (DAC) U-Smash.

Edgeguard

Ike: I think fair can be used, but not fully sure. Dair is a very strong spike.

Mario: Hit him with quick aerials and/or fireballs. It's very effective against Ike

Click to expand...

Ike: F-air can indeed be used. B-air edgeguard while easily telegraphed works as well. D-air is obvious, and one should always look out for for Aether-spikes if Mario manages to recover high. Eruption edgeguard can be surprising at times as well, especially if you somehow don't ledge-snap correctly.

Mario: Fireball > F-air is pretty awesome for this match-up since Ike pretty much has no defense against it besides air dodge.

Recovery

Ike: Pretty bad. Ike is practically forced to recover high because Mario can easily gimp him if he recovers from low or mid level.

Mario: It's decent. Sort of one-way if you know what I mean, but he has mix ups that he can do to help him.

Click to expand...

Mario's recovery is very safe. Ike can't really do much against it if Mario is spamming fireballs, cape stalling to avoid eruptions and aetherspikes, and can practically beat all of his aerials with Up-B.

Margin of Error

Degree of Punishment

Ike: Jab lock. It can punish some approaches and rack some good damage on us. His smashes can be used to punish air dodges, side steps, etc. and kill at very low percents

Mario: Can hit him with fast pokes before he can do much. This will end up turning into combos, juggles, and strings. Most of his moves are slow enough to punish like this. Stutter-stepped Fsmash can be used to punish whiffed moves since it outranges most of his moves

Click to expand...

Ike: Already addressed Jab lock from above, but Jab is pretty much Ike's best punish move.

Mario: Pretty much agreed.

Adding on a sub-category on this part:

Capitalization
Capitalization is basically addressing what both characters can do when either character is wide open for attack. Somewhat goes into the mindgame department though doesn't fully rely on it. I'll fill this out myself to give a decent idea.

Ike: One Word, F-Smash. Ike can use F-Smash as a psyche tactic against Mario, particularly when he's approaching him to attack. One mis-spaced aerial on Mario's part can mean F-Smash from Ike if he prepares for it. Predicting air dodges from Mario can also make him eat charged U-Smashes as well, which can kill quite early.

Mario: Not as strong as Ike's in the strength department, but far better as far as damage output goes. Like it or not, Ike's stuff is susceptible to being powershielded and it leaves him wide open. This allows Mario to let him do pretty much anything to Ike that doesn't have a high start-up (which is pretty much only F-Smash and F-air). Using any laggy attack can easily be punished with F-Smash for kills, and Ike pretty much has to go out of his way to use laggy attacks to kill Mario, if it isn't B-air or F-tilt. F-tilt in particular can still be punished with the Breakdance Combo (Jab-Jab-DSmash) for an easy 21% damage.

Character Attributes

Strengths

Ike: Very strong, sorta heavy around upper mid-weight, long range/disjoints

Mario: Very fast, little lag, has a projectile, very good edgeguarding and gimping

Click to expand...

Ike: High damage output. Strong defensive game.

Mario: High damage output due to his combo ability.

Weaknesses

Ike: Very slow and laggy moves, gimpable recovery

Mario: Small range, significantly less killpower than Ike

Click to expand...

Ike: Trouble landing KO moves despite the high damage output. Poor edgeguarding. Very readable methods.

Mario: Hard time dealing with Ike when he has the momentum (as in, when you're continuously getting hit because you can't get into range).

Covering Weaknesses

Ike: I don't know fully.

Mario: DO NOT SPOTDODGE, AIRDODGE, OR ROLL!! These three things are what primarily get punished by Ike's smashes. Don't do these and you'll get hit by much fewer smashes.

Click to expand...

Ike: Use only quick moves the majority of the time, which is N-air, Jab, Grab, B-air, and F-tilt. Abuse your range for the entire match. Wait for an opening to get a kill instead of risking a laggy attack.

Mario: I wholeheartedly agree. One thing to note is to make sure you effectively camp to demand an approach out of Ike if you can't get inside.

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power

Ike: Very strong smashes. Will kill at low percents. Spike will kill at low percents also. Other moves have pretty good kill power.

Mario: Mediocre. Probably kill him at 110% minimum from Fsmash. Usmash at a bit higher.

Click to expand...

Ike: N-air > Jab > Grab gives good damage. Pretty much all his aerials have high damage per hit.

Mario: Damage output is far superior. Can juggle Ike immensely and has more legit true combos.

Gimp Ability

Ike: His spike is all I can think of right now and that won't hit much.

Mario: Very good. FLUDD destroys his recoveries by pushing his aether back making him unable to grab the ledge or by pushing him back during quick draw freefall state

Click to expand...

Ike: D-air and Aetherspike pretty much.

Mario: Cape on Aether or, hell, cape on him in general off-stage equals an easy gimp. Fireballs make him extremely vulnerable for gimps as well.

Overall

Advantage: 60:40

Click to expand...

Agreed. Hoping for Ike players to refute this.

Questions for Ike players:

2. How often will Ike get gimped?

Click to expand...

If Ike recovers high then he shouldn't be getting incredibly gimped, but Mario's F-throw and D-Smash makes recovering high not guaranteed. I'd say at least once per match.

I agree 60:40 Mario

I used to think it was 55:45...but I'm leaning toward 60:40 myself. It just seems like one of those randomly challenging match-ups for Ike.

I think this is 50:50 cus of my lack of MU experience lmfao...

From reading HeroMystic's new layout, 60:40 seems right.

Ike is like DK in the sense that he really only shines when you don't have the matchup experience against him.

Only Ike is a lot worse than DK. And I'll argue all day that Mario goes no worse than even with DK.

I'll put it as 60:40 then. I was thinking instead of linking the page, I'll link a single post with the list. Can someone tell me how to do that?

I don't now that....


Hey lets talk about Captain falcon?

Inferno3044 said:

I'll put it as 60:40 then. I was thinking instead of linking the page, I'll link a single post with the list. Can someone tell me how to do that?

Click to expand...

Click the number on the top right of the post. (Yours is #1213)

HeroMystic said:

Click the number on the top right of the post. (Yours is #1213)

Click to expand...

Thank you. What I plan to do is make edit my post chart to put our ideas together. It would be much easier. I can attempt it later for other characters.

This is fine with me. But you don't have to use the format anymore. As far as I'm concerned it was a pretty big bust when I presented the idea in the Tactical boards. Since no one agrees with the notion, it's hard to make the format work when no one wants to use it.

I agree with the format Hero, just very few are actually using it and few people do use it, and if we keep using the format more people will start using it as well. I don't think you should just 'give up' with the idea, just keep being stubborn about it, and pushing it out more. I like the format, involves a lot more in depth things, less theory-crafting (too much can hurt).

The Ike match-up has also been fairly quiet, we can keep moving on, or continue with this one if anyone has anything too add. I haven't really faced too many Ike's so I can't add more, plus Hero covered pretty much all of the points.

Since this isn't going anywhere, I'm just going to put 60:40 Mario. Who's next?

EDIT: I put sort of a definition for ratios on the OP. Tell me if you think it's good or should be changed.

Sheik is probably the most worthwhile to rediscuss.

I have the feeling that a lot of Mario mains do not know how to play matchups like this one correctly.

Yeah, I second Sheik for the same reason. I know I could use some tips on it...I don't know it like I believed I did.

Haha well my close friend is an amazing Sheik user, so I have a lot to say on this matchup.

In my opinion I feel we haven't really discussed the follow;
-Kirby
-Lolimar
-Zero Suit Samus

Correct me if I'm wrong however :S.

I played NEO's Sheik in a few friendlies a few days back...I dunno if you guys knew he had a sick-nasty Sheik.

Played Tristan_Win too awhile back. He's also pretty insane with his Sheik shenanigans.

So I've got experience...but I could use some rediscussing.

Edit: I've also got a ton of ZSS experience from This guy, my crewmate Sassy.

And I play P~S (Logic) semi-sorta occasionally. I've got some experience there. I wreck non-logic Olimars, lol.

No Chu experience unfortunately. I play and do well against another Kirby player, but he's not "omgwtf?!" kinda good...just good.

Sheik requires Mario to play completely differently from the majority of his matchups. Mario's preferred zoning options are usually his aerials, but vs Sheik, you really just aren't allowed to zone with aerials as you please. Jumping is very unsafe against this character, as she has the run speed, quick aerials, and camp options to consistently punish any commitment she calls, and this character defeats shieldcamping very easily with spaced fastfalled aerials that you can't shieldgrab, needle camping, and an intimidating dashgrab. Her chain isn't a horrible move either, as you basically cannot melee this character as you please when she has the chain out (although projectiles beat it).

So vs Sheik, you actually should be spending most of your time focusing on ground poking with Jabs and F-tilts and limiting her space to run away. This is how you counter the Sheik players that are obsessed with punishing every small move you make. This will work extremely well until they start poking you back with stuff that outranges you. You really have to keep this character guessing as to what you're going to do while making as few commitments as possible. It's a very high tension matchup to say at the least.

Sheik wins this matchup slightly, like 55/45. Mario has some great options to combo, edgeguard, and kill her (while generally she doesn't kill you very early provided you deliberately avoid Up-smash and Up-B), but it is VERY tough to consistently maintain control against this character if she knows what she is doing.

Speaking of her kill options, Up-smash is obvious, F-smash and D-smash can kill if not stale, all her aerials can be used as KO moves at high percents. Her Up-B in particular deserves special mention since she can use it the same way you can spotdodge into D-smash, only she can also use it in the air and B boost with it with the aid of platforms.

The way you play this matchup is fundamentally the same way you should be playing against Fox and Sonic, who are also punish based characters, I should point out.

i have matchup expierence from Warpstatus a very good Zss(play alot in friendlies with him) and goop123(6-1 with him in tourneys) another very good zss

also have matchup expierence with brianH(1-2 in tourney) a excellent olimar

need help with sheik though

I have Sheik experience from Champ like a year ago >.>

And just recently vs DSF in our low tiers double match like 2 weeks ago.


Warpstatus, mentioned by vato, used to be in SoCal's power rankings, so if we talk about ZSS, Vato can input quite a bit.

Shiek can also grab release to DACUS Usmash us and it's a guaranteed tipper if they do it right, and that kills really... really **** early.

-Sheik CAN Ftilt>Usmash us if the Ftilt is stalled, so, be aware of Ftilt spammy Sheiks...-

Flameleon said:

-Sheik CAN Ftilt>Usmash us if the Ftilt is stalled, so, be aware of Ftilt spammy Sheiks...-

Click to expand...

Yeah...this kills at about 100% WITH DI. So don't get Ftilted if you can help it.

For the love of god, do NOT get stuck in Sheik's ftilt juggle. First few times you can smash di into an up b, but good Sheik players will look out for this, then punish you :[

F-tilt isn't THAT bad...

How is everyone playing this MU with Sheik's current Metagame?

I'm just a bit bitter cause Sheik's ftilt cost me a match off of DSF :[

I was making a clutch come back, DSF(Sheik) @ 2 stocks + Ajax(Jigglypuff) @ 1 stock vs my lonely 1 stock Mario. With my planking skills, I took out DSF once, then caped DSF to cause him to kill his own partner(****), but then I got caught in a ftilt, throughout the match I have been up-bing out of his ftilt, but he anticipated it, power shielded, then killed me :[

I'm with Famous. It isn't that bad. My Smash DI is poor which is my main problem. UpB isn't the best option because of this disadvantage you get if you miss. If you miss, then you get back into another Ftilt juggle. When I played Sheik, the ftilt juggle would normally end with Utilt which made sense because it put you right where you wanted. A2 told me that against the most of the really fast characters (mainly Fox, Sheik, and Sonic) that what you really need for them is a strong ground game. I don't see where that's wrong. This MU is pretty momentum based though. How good is Sheik's priority? If it's bad like Sonic, I'd be using a lot of SHNair.

Ankoku said:

Why would you up+B? Doesn't Mario have a nair that breaks out? Use that. Mario is definitely not a character that Sheik can actually tilt lock.

Click to expand...

I was hoping someone would say this. Surprised a Shiek main had to say it.

Ankoku said:

Why would you up+B? Doesn't Mario have a nair that breaks out? Use that. Mario is definitely not a character that Sheik can actually tilt lock.

Sheik's attacks are generally not very disjointed, so they lose to a lot of better "priority" attacks like Snake's tilts and Mario's existence, but a small disjoint on her fair lets her beat people just "throwing out" aerials if she is allowed the precision.

Click to expand...

/agree

I think it was TW who told me Luigi does well vs Sheik because he can nair out of everything...

Our Nair is just as fast so it should have the same effect for combo breaking. The lock really isn't an issue...it's more the overall range she has, combo ability, and her Ftilt -> Usmash KO set-up. Her positives in this match-up pretty much mirror ours.

She can gimp us decently well too if predicted.

lol us mario's don't know our other options, dunno if it was smash di or not, but i think dair can break it too, it's like frame 5? dunno probably not.

i don't understand how to fight shiek at all lol, her movement is really gay, she's kinda like Marth but slightly different since she has no sword.

Yea Sheik has GR>DACUS on Mario so killing isn't that much of a problem.

The only irritating stuff about Mario I don't like is not being able to ftilt that well and him being a fantastic edgeuarder. Other than that I feel Sheik has a superior moveset and a better camp game. Most of the time I feel like i'm in control in this matchup.

Tristan AND Neo tried to GR -> DACUS on me and it didn't work any of the times. If they screwed it up, the timing must be tight enough to count on inconsistentcy.

If they didn't screw up, it probably doesn't work 100% of the time.

I'm thinking 50:50 still...there's no real glaring advantage that either character has over the other. They both rack up damage quickly and killing isn't too difficult...