The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

You really gotta make your KOs count and hope you can catch them with a cape. Like I said, I'd just go high every single time to avoid that.

Why is it that when it comes to gimping, only the cape is mentioned?

HeroMystic said:

Why is it that when it comes to gimping, only the cape is mentioned?

Click to expand...

I mentioned FLUDD >.>

Cape, FLUDD, Ganondorf's UAir, same answer, go high.

It's not just FLUDD either. Mario has four aerials capable of gimping (B-air, F-air, N-air, U-air), and generally racking up damage due to edgeguarding. Fireball spam should also be noted since it kills momentum, granted the fireballs are affected by gravity.

Cape is not the only threat to Bowser off-stage.

JayDeth said:

Cape, FLUDD, Ganondorf's UAir, same answer, go high.

Click to expand...

If you can, anyway.

JayDeth said:

GRAB ARMOR! Again, it says hi. Where's that vid with the visual representations of all of Bowser's hitboxes...

Click to expand...

And you forget, his aerial SideB starts up in 17 frames. That is extremely slow.

Mario can much more consistently get Bowser to 150% for an Up-smash KO than Bowser can get Mario to 120% for a tilt KO (and keep in mind, Mario's Sliding Up-smash can be used to kill Bowser as early as 125%). On top of easy gimps on any stage not named battlefield.

I just don't think most players have bothered to fully capitalize on Bowser's weaknesses. He's just a terrible limited character with a ton of predictable options (that Mario CAN in fact punish), and Mario is a character with clearly better options and more ways of staying safe and creating openings viably. All of Bowser's advantages assume he's playing better than the Mario player (or in non-high level play where Bowser's more obvious strengths are easier to exploit), which is not reliable at all. If Mario doesn't mess up his camping, there is extremely little Bowser can do to work past safe B-air, Fireball, and Up-B useage, and whiffs always risk getting punished by F-smash, and Firebreath is not hard to punish with SDI.

Mario wins on all stages, and ***** Bowser on a few stages. This is at least 6/4 Mario.

This is Super Smash Bros. Brawl, not Super Mario 64. Bowser vs Mario is an even matchup

And you forget, his aerial SideB starts up in 17 frames. That is extremely slow.

Click to expand...

And yet I grab people with it time and again. If you'll take note from the hit bubble vid, aerial Klaw has probably the BEST range of all of Bowser's attack, bar Firebreath. You also need to remember that if you, say, spot dodge it, all it takes is a lagless jump to turn it into a FAir or a 3 frame landing and you have a Fortress. And in the air, it's all about the timing. Mario has to be much further inside to land an aerial. Though it at this point that we devolve into, well I'll just AD to the ground or whatever and I'll do this and you'll do that, blah blah blah....

What was I talking about? Oh yeah. Klaw is awesome and it's not a move you should casually disregard simply because of how "slow" it is.

I'm too lazy to quote so I'm gonna answer things in one swoop.

Recovering - Obviously, recovering low for Bowser is an easy cape gimp. However for Mario, cape is not the only gimping tool he has. I'm not sure how much FLUDD will affect his recovery so I won't go into it. However his aerials can send him a good enough range because most of its knockback is horizontal (especially bair) except for fair which is a spike. This will send him far enough off stage and without a jump to force him to recover with fortress. This leads to a cape. Obviously for Bowser, the best solution around this is to recover high. With good timing and mobility it is possible to be semi safe although there's a good chance you can take a bit of damage. Unfortunately for Bowser, he can't always recover high because some of our moves won't allow it (Dsmash, Fsmash, bair, etc.) Of course taking damage is better than losing a stock and since Bowser can live to stupidly high percents (heaviest character in the game) he's gonna rather take the damage. Also let's be realistic. It might be pretty easy to gimp Bowser doesn't mean it'll always happen. Once a game wouldn't be considered unrealistic. Bowser really doesn't have much to mess up Mario's recovery. All I can think of is fire breath to edgeguard which won't cause gimps often. Because of this, I'm giving this to Mario.

Damage Racking/Killing - Mario wins in damage racking. Hands down. He has fast aerials and can juggle Bowser extremely easy and rack more damage than Bowser can. It's a fact and if you object to this, then you're wrong. On the other side, Bowser's attacks do a very good amount of damage per hit and he kills at low percents. Since most of his moves kill, it doesn't matter which move he uses because most of them kill. Also, Bowser won't always live to high 100's without a gimp. I'm gonna put this out now for Mario's. Saving your Usmash is dumb. Use it to rack damage on him. Fsmash is strong enough to kill him in the low-mid 100's if fresh (which it should be) and outranges all of Bowser's moves if stutter stepped. When you see an opening at those percents, get and Fsmash on him. The killing and damage racking kinda even out, but I think Bowser has a slight advantage.

Camping - I'm gonna give this to Mario and there's one real reason why. Bowser doesn't have anything to force Mario to approach. I don't care how much anybody says "we can PS them" fireballs will force an approach. The fact that we have a projectile and you don't makes it much easier to outcamp you. Your size also makes it impossible to say this is false. The logic I just used has very few exceptions (Wario).

I saw somebody use an example of Bowser fighting Samus, getting damage racked by projectiles, and still winning. That is a bad defense. Samus and Mario are two different characters. Her kill power is so terrible that Bowser can still win. Her aerials aren't quick like ours. One of her most reliable kill moves is a spike. That means her kill power is bad. It's like us saying "Look at this video of s Mario fighting a Marth, constantly getting hit due to lack of range, and we still win." (Honestly I think a video like that would help us a lot because Marth's range is also really good but it's also fast)

Also one last note about the claw hopping. I'd simply wait for it to be in its ending lag and dodge until then. For me it sounds better than a spot dodge. That move is good A2 btw. G&W's Usmash is slower than that and I see it hit pretty easily. Also when he gets in, he can use a different move. I'd try to use fireballs because he can't koopa hop and dodge fireballs. He's gonna have to stop and shield or else he'll get hit.

I keep by my opinion of 60:40 Mario.

Samus and Mario are two different characters.

Click to expand...

Lol, next you'll be telling me that MK is different than Ganon. roflcopter

My point with the vid is that you realize two things from playing as Bowser and from the vid (which I posted mostly because I couldn't find a Bowser v Mario vid I liked so I just found a good one of a very projectile spamy character): first, that you're going to get hit. Part of Ixis's problem was that he was dashing and you can't shield during the dash start up, but I digress. Second, that it ultimately doesn't matter. All it means is that it'll take Bowser a just a little bit longer to get to you and he may or may not have a little more damage by the time he does. You have to run out of stage at some point and higher percents just make it easier to get out of combos anyway, due to the increased KB and whatnot. Right? Bowser has no combos, so I wouldn't really know for sure, lol.

Also, you aren't perfect (unless you're boss or Famous or A2Z or *insert awesome Mario mainer here*) and I'm not perfect. We're bound to make mistakes and it would be wise to remember that Bowser has the higher pay off when capitalizing on them, be it a Gimpyfish combo or what have you.

I do however concede that's it's most likely in favor of Mario, if only because of the threat of gimping. Everything else about him, other characters can do better that are 40/60 match ups if not closer. Sorry, but I'd have an easier time buying the unstoppable juggernaut A2Z is selling if Mario was higher on the tier list.

inb4tiersR4queers

HeroMystic said:

>.> Not sure I wanna kill this or not.

Click to expand...

Caping a level 9 Bowser is hard if he's recovering high. Lv 9 Bowser is a genius at recovering, he made me the man I am today.

JayDeth said:

And Veggi, are you sure you're a Mario main? O.o

Click to expand...

What? Who set my icon to Mario? Bloody hackers.

JayDeth said:

I do however concede that's it's most likely in favor of Mario, if only because of the threat of gimping. Everything else about him, other characters can do better that are 40/60 match ups if not closer. Sorry, but I'd have an easier time buying the unstoppable juggernaut A2Z is selling if Mario was higher on the tier list.

Click to expand...

Mario is an extremely underrated character who is solidly mid tier, and he has no blatantly unwinnable matchups, although MK , Marth, G&W, and DDD push his limits a lot. Mario is in fact able to do somethings better than most characters. He has a significantly better out of shield game, shield pressure options than most characters, and his camping is able to safely cover several options. Furthermore he is very good at gimping Bowser reliably, and his F-smash is one of the most useful punish options in the entire game by virtue of massive damage, range, and respectable enough startup. Mario is a character who is very reliable at scoring kills safely when his opponent has enough damage, and this damage is not hard to accumulate on an unsafe and easily comboed and edgeguarded character like Bowser.

Bowser on the other hand is overrated garbage who has a few tricks that are very predictable and entirely counterable with matchup knowledge.

As for Bowser's Klaw, I don't let you execute it. I Up-B you when I observe the approach, NOT when you start Klawing. This is very safe on battlefield. If you commit to the Klaw, you get punished. If you happen to airdodge, you still aren't fast enough to reliably punish this if I land on a platform. Besides, the Klaw starts up slow enough that I could feasibly be snuffing it on reaction, and the position from which Bowser will airdodge is generally predictable.

JayDeth said:

Lol, next you'll be telling me that MK is different than Ganon. roflcopter

My point with the vid is that you realize two things from playing as Bowser and from the vid (which I posted mostly because I couldn't find a Bowser v Mario vid I liked so I just found a good one of a very projectile spamy character): first, that you're going to get hit. Part of Ixis's problem was that he was dashing and you can't shield during the dash start up, but I digress. Second, that it ultimately doesn't matter. All it means is that it'll take Bowser a just a little bit longer to get to you and he may or may not have a little more damage by the time he does. You have to run out of stage at some point and higher percents just make it easier to get out of combos anyway, due to the increased KB and whatnot. Right? Bowser has no combos, so I wouldn't really know for sure, lol.

Also, you aren't perfect (unless you're boss or Famous or A2Z or *insert awesome Mario mainer here*) and I'm not perfect. We're bound to make mistakes and it would be wise to remember that Bowser has the higher pay off when capitalizing on them, be it a Gimpyfish combo or what have you.

I do however concede that's it's most likely in favor of Mario, if only because of the threat of gimping. Everything else about him, other characters can do better that are 40/60 match ups if not closer. Sorry, but I'd have an easier time buying the unstoppable juggernaut A2Z is selling if Mario was higher on the tier list.

inb4tiersR4queers

Click to expand...

I understood the whole concept of the projectiles and Bowser getting through, but that wasn't my point in saying they are different. Samus can keep Bowser out as good, if not better than us. That's just how they go against Bowser. There is a big difference though which makes me think Mario can camp harder than Samus. Sure she can keep Bowser out, but what does she have once he gets in? Although I'm not a Samus main, I'm very sure that Mario has much better options to get you out. Plus, we can counter and get aggressive when you guys get aggressive. If any of you guys have seen some good Boss videos, you'll know that Mario can be quite a threat once he gets momentum.

The part of mistakes, I have two views of it for MU discussions. One part is that you can't ignore them because they will happen. How you punish mistakes is important because of that. For Bowser, I see that he might not be able to punish really small mistakes easy enough to land something like an Fsmash. There are definitely some things you can do like Ftilt or some other move that comes out at a good time. Also to me, punishing is getting a hit for a mistake whether its a jab combo, grab, or Usmash. Mario can definitely get some quick hits to punish Bowser without a problem. On the other side of my view, I think that you can't make punishing a big part of a MU. Making it a big deal means that you are based on your opponent making mistakes. This means that if your opponent plays very safe and makes sure they make minimal mistakes, they will win.

Last, but not least, I don't give a crap what the tier list says. That thing was made in June and there are new things being figured out. Certain characters should go up (IC's, Diddy, Lucario, Shiek) and others should go down (Pikachu, ROB, Sonic, G&W). Mario is definitely a character that should go up (above Bowser imo). He is very underrated and really only gets really beaten bad by MK. Although some other characters give him a hard time (Marth, D3, Snake, G&W) he has the potential to beat just about every character. He can really fight some of the top characters well (Diddy, Falco, Olimar). In my opinion of a tier list, he would be in mid-low C tier. Bowser would be upper low tier (where he is now). Of course this last paragraph is based completely off my opinion, so you can think I'm wrong about this paragraph.

Bowser is comparably bad to someone like Yoshi. He's not as bad as say...Ike, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf, but those are the only characters he's clearly better than. He has a few blatantly unwinnable matchups and never really goes close with any of the high or top tiers, generally doesn't have the tools to have any advantageous matchups against the mid tier and up, wins against the bottom tier (although Link is quite difficult for Bowser if he's played properly), and manages to not get ***** horribly in low tiers for the most part, although Mario at least dominates him pretty significantly (and the low tier in general, since he's in fact not low tier).

It's not so much that Mario is an unstoppable juggernaut. It's just because Bowser is bad and Mario is a better character with appropriate tools for being better than bad.

Mario however is in fact much harder to play on a high level. If Bowser were good, he would probably be my ideal main, since I do well with heavies in general. I actually don't like using really technical characters (which ironically, Mario is in fact pretty technical despite being my chosen main), and I'm quite good at mindgaming in random dumb stuff. I think my Bowser is in fact pretty legit.

lol, who the hell looks at the tier list during match-up ratios?

Looks like that 45:55 ratio between Link and Snake shouldn't even exist.

For what I think about Bowser is well he's going to have problems with all characters that have projectile because he's a big target and is slow.

I think Mario is one of Bowsers's best killers

But Bowser has his fire breath....cut himsome slack

60:45

Bowser on the other hand is overrated garbage

Click to expand...

Oh, well, when you put it that way it seems so obvious to me now. And if you had your mind made up already, what was the point of inviting us? Just to tell us why Mario is so much better than Bowser?

And what's this overrated business? If people thought he was good you would see alot more Bowser in tournies.

So what is the ratio that we all can agree with? 55:45 or 60:40.

LMFAO i swear this thread is gold

lets go with next character

I agree with 50:50

If anyone near southern Ontario wants to money match me I would love to (to see how much Mario COMPLETELY WRECKS Bowser). Just saying

Personally, I gave credit to both sides. What really hinders him and helps us is his crapload of ending lag. I can legitimately punish certain attacks with Fsmash. There are certain characters that are/were overrated. ROB was so overrated and according to the tier list he still is. G&W was overrated. Bowser might have been earlier (can't remember where he originally was) but now he is definitely not overrated. I'll repeat what I said before. I think Bowser is upper low tier like where he is now. I think Bowser can easily beat most of the current low tier characters Mario being an exception imo. Also 60:40 is not conpletely wrecking Bowser. I have no idea why you think that or why A2 ever thought this MU was 65:35 Mario because it's not. 60:40 means one character has some sort of significant advantage which I think we have (much quicker moves, easy to rack damage on you, pretty easy to edgeguard) but it's definitely winnable by the other person which I believe.

I'm just repeating myself now. I hope nobody is thinking by me saying it's 60:40 Mario that I think we destroy Bowser. Let's put a ratio on and move on. My vote is still 60:40.

I'd like to call it even as well.

A2ZOMG said:

Bowser is comparably bad to someone like Yoshi. He's not as bad as say...Ike, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf, but those are the only characters he's clearly better than. He has a few blatantly unwinnable matchups and never really goes close with any of the high or top tiers, generally doesn't have the tools to have any advantageous matchups against the mid tier and up, wins against the bottom tier (although Link is quite difficult for Bowser if he's played properly), and manages to not get ***** horribly in low tiers for the most part, although Mario at least dominates him pretty significantly (and the low tier in general, since he's in fact not low tier).

It's not so much that Mario is an unstoppable juggernaut. It's just because Bowser is bad and Mario is a better character with appropriate tools for being better than bad.

Mario however is in fact much harder to play on a high level. If Bowser were good, he would probably be my ideal main, since I do well with heavies in general. I actually don't like using really technical characters (which ironically, Mario is in fact pretty technical despite being my chosen main), and I'm quite good at mindgaming in random dumb stuff. I think my Bowser is in fact pretty legit.

Click to expand...

Tell that to to the snakes and mks I beat on a regular basis
I do agree with u that Bowzer is a difficult character to play with, he even has a very steep learning curve. Sometimes I wonder why I have devoted so much time, effort, tears, blood, sweat, sleep, and money to him. My having the most fun with him seems to be the main reason.
I'm not a bad player. I know match-ups. I'm even a ranked player in Alabama, not that Alabama is a powerhouse state mind you, lol.
Mario is tricky but manageable
55:45 Its clear that Mario has an advantage but not enough so to cometely limit Bowzer's options.

but you never use the c-stick therefore you are wrong

Lmfao Vato.

A2ZOMG said:

Mario is an extremely underrated character who is solidly mid tier, and he has no blatantly unwinnable matchups, although MK , Marth, G&W, and DDD push his limits a lot. Mario is in fact able to do somethings better than most characters.

Click to expand...

I agree, I'd say he is at least A tier material (especially if characters like Lucario are at the top of B tier). The fact that he's E tier baffles me completely.

As for the matchup ratio, I'd say it's 55:45-60:40 in Mario's favor.

l think A tier is abit pushing it too much lol...

UberMario said:

I agree, I'd say he is at least A tier material (especially if characters like Lucario are at the top of B tier). The fact that he's E tier baffles me completely. I'd put Mario as solid C tier.

As for the matchup ratio, I'd say it's 55:45-60:40 in Mario's favor.

Click to expand...

Sorry to crush your hopes but Mario is definitely not A tier. Also, don't sell Lucario short. He's a very good character. He has the potential to be low A tier possibly top 10. He should definitely be above Kirby and ROB and maybe Pikachu.

The Brown Scourge said:

Tell that to to the snakes and mks I beat on a regular basis
I do agree with u that Bowzer is a difficult character to play with, he even has a very steep learning curve. Sometimes I wonder why I have devoted so much time, effort, tears, blood, sweat, sleep, and money to him. My having the most fun with him seems to be the main reason.
I'm not a bad player. I know match-ups. I'm even a ranked player in Alabama, not that Alabama is a powerhouse state mind you, lol.
Mario is tricky but manageable
55:45 Its clear that Mario has an advantage but not enough so to cometely limit Bowzer's options.

Click to expand...

It's funny that I agree on all this but I think it's 60:40 Mario for the same reason you think it's 55:45. 60:40 means it's one player's advantage clearly but it's definitely fightable and options aren't limited. 55:45 means it's about even but one character has a slight, but not clear advantage. As I've been saying in my last few comments, this is my opinion.

Most people agree that this is Mario's advantage in some way, shape, or form. The thing is how much in his advantage. I've said my opinion enough.

Inferno3044 said:

Sorry to crush your hopes but Mario is definitely not A tier. Also, don't sell Lucario short. He's a very good character. He has the potential to be low A tier possibly top 10. He should definitely be above Kirby and ROB and maybe Pikachu.

Click to expand...

Lucario is better than Pikachu?

hippiedude92 said:

l think A tier is abit pushing it too much lol...

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but he shouldn't be in the top10 of the worst characters.

Mario is the most underrated character right now. He's at least B-tier...I'd put him at the bottom of A tier. A good Mario is fast, racks up damage, has lots of variety. There are only a few bad match ups, and all of them are winnable. Definitely better than Lucario, probably able to outrank Kirby and ROB. Having no cheap/abusable strategies prevents him from climbing any higher than that, though.

mario is not b tier...lol

Mario should be bottom C-tier.

JayDeth said:

Oh, well, when you put it that way it seems so obvious to me now. And if you had your mind made up already, what was the point of inviting us? Just to tell us why Mario is so much better than Bowser?

Click to expand...

I didn't invite anyone. I wanted to explain to other Mario users why I know Bowser doesn't stand a chance against Mario in high level play. Bowser is too limited and unsafe a character to compete on the same level as a character with legitimately good options.

And what's this overrated business? If people thought he was good you would see alot more Bowser in tournies.

Click to expand...

Tier list yo. Bowser is currently in fact ranked above Mario, even though Bowser in fact is too high, and Mario is BLATANTLY too low.

As skill level increases, the matchup only gets worse for Bowser. He doesn't have very extreme technical depth, while Mario does have good technical depth that really increases his options for playing safe and punishing hard. Bowser doesn't even win KO percents very reliably once you start introducing Mario players who pull off the sliding Up-smash consistently (can kill Bowser as early as 125%) and REALLY know the spacing for F-smash, not to mention the timing and spacing for Jab Jab D-smash (which is unblockable if executed correctly), and he still gets gimped infinitely more than Mario, and is much less consistent and effective at damage dealing.

This matchup may be close in low level play, where it is much easier to abuse Bowser's more obvious range and higher average reward per single hit as a spacing and punishing advantage against players who lack the technical skill or proper reaction to reliably counter some of Bowser's predictable stuff. But that is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about players who have good technical skill (which I don't have) and reactions on both sides. Mario has better tools and more diverse counters, and played to all his strengths, Bowser's advantages are extremely minimal. Mario for the most part can do everything Bowser can just as well, and usually significantly better and more safely.

tbh who are these people

/random lol

and mario has a answer to every thing, just saying.

A2ZOMG said:

I didn't invite anyone. I wanted to explain to other Mario users why I know Bowser doesn't stand a chance against Mario in high level play. Bowser is too limited and unsafe a character to compete on the same level as a character with legitimately good options.

Tier list yo. Bowser is currently in fact ranked above Mario, even though Bowser in fact is too high, and Mario is BLATANTLY too low.

As skill level increases, the matchup only gets worse for Bowser. He doesn't have very extreme technical depth, while Mario does have good technical depth that really increases his options for playing safe and punishing hard. Bowser doesn't even win KO percents very reliably once you start introducing Mario players who pull off the sliding Up-smash consistently (can kill Bowser as early as 125%) and REALLY know the spacing for F-smash, not to mention the timing and spacing for Jab Jab D-smash (which is unblockable if executed correctly), and he still gets gimped infinitely more than Mario, and is much less consistent and effective at damage dealing.

This matchup may be close in low level play, where it is much easier to abuse Bowser's more obvious range and higher average reward per single hit as a spacing and punishing advantage against players who lack the technical skill or proper reaction to reliably counter some of Bowser's predictable stuff. But that is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about players who have good technical skill (which I don't have) and reactions on both sides. Mario has better tools and more diverse counters, and played to all his strengths, Bowser's advantages are extremely minimal. Mario for the most part can do everything Bowser can just as well, and usually significantly better and more safely.

Click to expand...

Some things I'm gonna say about this. Bowser is not too high. I can't believe you seriously said before that Yoshi > Bowser. Bowser is definitely one of the better low tier characters. A sliding Usmash will not kill Bowser at 125%. Bowser is THE heaviest character in the game. There's no way our Usmash will end up killing at that low. It might kill him at 125% with no DI but any person with good DI will live far beyond 125%. To give us an advantage with that, I'd say that we can use it as a really good damage racking move. Also, jab x2 > Dsmash falls under damage racking. I think you are really selling Bowser short. You make it sound like its 70:30 Mario while I'm giving Mario's facts plus Bowser's abilities and saying Mario wins, but Bowser can definitely fight and it's a winnable MU for them although we have a clear advantage. 60:40 Mario.

@people saying Mario is A or B tier - He is not that good. He's a good character, but not A tier material. I need to seriously know why you guys think Mario's clearly better than Lucario. I do agree that Mario is very underrated and should definitely be higher.

@Uber Mario - Yes I think Lucario is better than Pikachu. I'll tell you what Pikachu has. He has good camping skills, mediocre kill power, really good recovery, and some chain grabs that just happen to work on some good characters. Seriously, the only really good Pikachu is Anther and he is the only reason that Pikachu is as high as he is. I've seen some good Lucario's either in person or online (Azen, Zucco, Junebug). He is definitely better than Pikachu.

Inferno3044 said:

Some things I'm gonna say about this. Bowser is not too high. I can't believe you seriously said before that Yoshi > Bowser. Bowser is definitely one of the better low tier characters.

Click to expand...

Bowser is not one of the better low tiers. He's average for a low tier. He lacks a lot in fundamentally landing hits of any kind, whether it's for damage dealing or KOing. He can KO pretty early by punishing big enough mistakes with the right move out of shield, and that's about it.

He's comparably horrible to Yoshi, not necessarily worse. He has very predictable approach options that are easily countered with matchup knowledge, and approaching him is at best tedious, rather than a bad option, and he generally doesn't have many options to really work around defenses. Bowser has something that resembles an approach, while Yoshi has something that resembles camping and survives longer.

A sliding Usmash will not kill Bowser at 125%. Bowser is THE heaviest character in the game. There's no way our Usmash will end up killing at that low. It might kill him at 125% with no DI but any person with good DI will live far beyond 125%.

Click to expand...

Bowser is not the heaviest character vertically, and you really underestimate the raw power a slight charge adds to Up-smash.

To give us an advantage with that, I'd say that we can use it as a really good damage racking move. Also, jab x2 > Dsmash falls under damage racking. I think you are really selling Bowser short. You make it sound like its 70:30 Mario while I'm giving Mario's facts plus Bowser's abilities and saying Mario wins, but Bowser can definitely fight and it's a winnable MU for them although we have a clear advantage. 60:40 Mario.

Click to expand...

It's not 70/30 since Mario isn't Marth with retardedly broken everything, but this is a matchup that is too blatantly hard for Bowser in high level play. Bowser can't really legitimately counterpick Mario for an advantage, and Bowser literally can't win on certain stages.

It's at minimum 60/40, but Mario's advantages on Bowser are not small at all. They are fundamentally very significant, and this is a matchup that Bowser should not be winning in high level play. So I'm pushing it closer to 65/35. It's not 7/3 because this matchup is technical for Mario. A Mario with proper technical skill WILL however **** this matchup significantly.

@Uber Mario - Yes I think Lucario is better than Pikachu. I'll tell you what Pikachu has. He has good camping skills, mediocre kill power, really good recovery, and some chain grabs that just happen to work on some good characters. Seriously, the only really good Pikachu is Anther and he is the only reason that Pikachu is as high as he is. I've seen some good Lucario's either in person or online (Azen, Zucco, Junebug). He is definitely better than Pikachu.

Click to expand...

Both Pikachu and Lucario are not that good, and I think they're about the same in rank, except Pikachu ***** a few more characters with a reliable chaingrab, and doesn't really lose much on counterpick stages in general, and the characters Lucario does better against, not too many, and it's only by a very small extent.

Neither character can actually kill anyone easily in high level play (Pikachu has fresh N-air for his best option, Lucario...fresh U-tilt or D-air I guess). They don't have very good camping either.

Al I can say is, Mario does not diserve to be in the E tier if Bowse is in the D tier

But A Bowser got fire breath so cool

I actually dn't care fo Lucario and stuff but Pikachu.....his thunder is crazy, his Down smash is annoying and well he does desrve to be in one of the high tiers.....He's not fun to fight because of those attacks...especially online

Pikachu's Thunder should rarely hit you if you have good DI and reaction time. Don't get greedy when he lets the bolt hit himself.

His D-smash does very little damage if you SDI well. If you block it, it is possible for Mario to F-smash him out of shield.

OK. We are getting really off topic right now. I see quite a few 60:40's, some 55:45's, an even, and a 65:35. If I put this at 60:40, who will complain?

57:43

******** ratios ftw