For those of you who don't know me, I'm an Australian based smasher currently living and smashing just outside Tokyo, Japan. I've been here for a few months already, and will be here until the end of February next year.
Since arriving, I make an effort to locate nearby smashers, and learn the Japanese way of doing things. Our scenes have always been so separate; obviously language playing a part. But it wasn't until I began playing some of the more high ranking players that I started realizing how underdeveloped the Western metagame really is.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anybody, or saying that Western pros are actually that good, but rather, that the Japanese do a bunch of things that we don't, and if we integrated their metagame with ours, then competitive smash would be taken to an entire new level.
So basically in this thread, I would like to discuss the differences between the Eastern and Western brawl metagames. Firstly, the Japanese Tier List:
http://www.sekieigym.com/rankingX.html
S+: Metaknight
S: Snake
A: Falco, Pit, Marth, Fox, Wario, Diddy, King Dedede
B: Olimar, Game and Watch, Zelda/Shiek, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, ROB
C: Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, Pikachu
D: Donkey Kong, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Mario
E: Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi
F: Ganon, Samus, Falcon, Sonic, Jigglypuff
Important to note here that Japan doesn't have an SBR or similar, so there are numerous tier lists floating about, although they are all very similar (this is one that a smasher I know created).
Main differences here are that Fox and Pit are really quite high, Ice climbers are low, and Sonic has been completely rejected. But why?
I actually spent most of today playing with Yui (regarded as the best fox in Japan if not the world), and quite frankly, got obliterated. I'm not a noob but any stretch (one of the best in Australia, in fact), but he crapped all over me. Short hop laser forces an approach from most characters, nair is amazing for setting up combos/strings/gimps, and he's constantly on the move. Admittedly I really didn't know the matchup and started adjusting after a time, he would still connect hits completely across the stage and score incredible amounts of damage without me touching the ground. And shield a hit and use usmash to finish. Quite frankly, I've never seen/experienced anything like it. Fox is a character with amazing potential, although he is willing to admit that Pikachu is rather, impossible. Pikachu isn't especially popular in Japan though (MK and Marth are everywhere, and both can shut down Pikachu quite well), so this is why Yui can get away with maining Fox. That being said, we seconds an amazing MK and Snake, so cps are too much of an issue.
I am yet to play Masashi, so I can't really comment on Pit too correctly at this time. Although I do know that he ledges like crazy, and camps like nobodies business, making all matchups winnable to some extent. Pit doesn't have a counter in the same way as Fox does, mind you.
Ice climbers... When you're as perfect as they are, you don't get grabbed. Perfect spacing and auto-cancelling, and you can slowly chip Nana away until there is only Popo left. They don't rate Ics very highly because they don't really have any grab setups, so they can really only get a grab if the opponent makes a mistake. Play the game everyday all day and you wouldn't make mistakes either. Not to mention, with good SDI quite a number of players can SDI through blizzard and counter with some aerial. MK really ***** them if you rknow how to do this properly.
And Sonic, I don't know cause I don't care too much for him. I'll find out if someone really wants me too...
And just in general, some of the things they do are quite incredible and I haven't seen then done by any Western players. There was one guy I was watching a couple of weeks ago (he mains random) using Marth and versing an MK, and he consistently (like, 9 times out of 10) sweetspotted a Dolphin Slash while trapped in MK's tornado. And they do this sort of crazy stuff all the time. AND if I get footstooled out of my cypher recovery at the bottom of the screen one more time I think I'm gonna scream.
But yeah, I left my recording equipment back home, so until my brother sends it to me, I don't have videos. Will hopefully start putting some up around Christmas though.
And if there is anything anyone wants to ask me about the Japanese scene, or something you want me to ask them (my Japanese is pretty good) feel free.
Until then.
UPDATE 27/12/09: TSUDANUMA RANDOM BATTLE
yes, i went to my first japanese tournament today. before i go into details about the players, i would first like to discuss some of the different rules and format they have. some of it is good, some, not so good...
- 5 rounds of 'pools' by where winners verse winners and losers verse losers. top half qualify for 'A' bracket. bottom half qualify for 'B' bracket.
- for 'pools', characters and ports are selected by agreement on a matchup. this is stupid.
- random stages here are FD, SV and BF. because they do not believe the game's algorithms to be properly random, the stage is chosen out of a hat by a TO. this stage applies to everyone that round. there is no stage cancelling here.
- 'pools' are consistuted of one round. try not to sd...
- after 5 rounds, the top half go into the 'A' bracket, and the bottom half in the 'B' bracket. seeding is used to organize within the brackets.
- 'A' bracket is a double elimination bracket, but are all 1 round except for winners' final, losers' final and the grand final. those matches are best of 3.
- 'B' bracket is single elimination, constituted of 1 round matches (except for the grand final, which is best out of 3). once again, try not to sd...
- the stage rules for both 'A' and 'B' brackets are the same. players do rock-paper-scissors before they start. the winning player bans a stage (out of FD, SV and BF), chooses their preferred port and chooses their character second. the losing players picks the stage out of the remaining two. once again, very dangerous when its 1 round only. i lost because i lost rock-paper-scissors...
- stages for counterpicking for those matches that involve best out of three are only out of FD, BF and SV. the stupid 'not picking a stage youve already won on' rule doesnt exist here.
- mk/pit are only allowed to fly under the stage once per time theyre off the edge. after flying under the stage, they are not allowed to do so again until they have STOOD on the stage (not ledge grabbed).
- you arent allowed to change your controls (i got screwed over here). the reason for this (i was told) is that it takes too much time. but given that you cant even do it in the grand final, i do not think this is the case.
- in order to discourage timing out, not only is the timer 10 minutes, but also, in the match ends in a time up, you play sudden death (lol). although this did result in the best finish to a match ive ever seen.
- all wiis and tvs are turned off during winners', losers' and grand finals. this creates a massive crowd and massive hype.
- this particular tourney had 96 entrants.
ok, so with that out of the way, the tournament itself. most of the popular ones were present: rain, brood, L, disk, bombsoldier to name a few. in the end, the tourney was won by a toon link in two sets (named Smasher). he was actually freakin amazing.
one of the main things i noticed straight away is how many underused characters are actually used in japan. im not sure about america, but in australia at least, probably 2/3 of the characters used are from the top (half) of the tier list. in japan, this appeared not to be the case. lots of ike (so much ike), lucario, bowser and other characters of the same level. that being said, everyone can use mk, and they generally choose to at the first sight of ice climbers...
another thing i noticed was the complete lack of pikachu. out of 96 people, i didnt see a single one. marth seems to be everywhere, however, so perhaps that is why. there was one really **** sheik but i cant remember his name... Asu, maybe?
sorry pit fanboys, no decent pits were present. although after talking with the guys, it seems that pit is ONLY high on the tier list because masashi seems to do really well with him. they do think all his top tier matchups are 60:40 or better for him, but no one does well with him besides masashi.
yui on the other hand was out and proud, although he was the only fox i actually saw. he beat rain (fox v falco) i rather nice style, and (from memory) came top 4. although i do have on good authority that hes an absolute doosh though (rain wins here).
omg, olimar was everywhere. and theyre so good with him. best oli (Brood) beat the best snake in a best of three. 2 stocked. not sure why he's so popular, but as a snake main, i find it horrible.
best ice climber goes by the title of kakera. it looked like he was buffering standard dthrow/bthrow chaingrabs. ive never seen anyone throw so fast... hes totally ****. doesnt go to tourneys often though.
contrary to popular belief, the official best snake in japan is actually 'shuu', and he happened to be present. very campy but also super pro at edgeguarding in unique ways... and he approaches mk backwards
and the recognized best smasher in japan is actually 'akira', an mk from osaka. not present unfortunately.
in general, japanese smash is very cautious and campy, yet simple, at least, this is how they see themselves. the sudden death rule meanings there is no benefit in timing out your opponent, instead, if someone is not approaching, it is because they cant do so without endangering themselves. to me, this results in a rather slow style of play, but a much less gay one. it creates a different kind of smash, and quite frankly, i think i prefer it.
as for the sudden death i saw, a kirby timed out an ice climber player by platform camping on smashville. that being said, the kirby was grabbed and at 100% when the timer went off. in sudden death, kirby but the grab and used an uthrow, sending popo to his doom off the top. but not before nana killed kirby with an nair. lol ****.
and yeah, i came 4th in 'b' bracket. too many characters im not used to. after lots of friendlies, i can now take japan's 8th best player's mk about 50% of the time, and his diddy almost all the time. not used to other characters though, making japanese tournaments really difficult. i think in this sense, wifi is actually a good thing, cause you can get some matchup experience from all characters, instead of hoping that youve got 35 different friends who all have different mains and live within walking distance. poor australia lol.
there is a crew tournament i will be attending tomorrow. because i applied so late, i dont even know who im teaming with. so ill get trashed. hahaha.
i think thats about all. oh wait, i took some videos! these are from my camera, so excuse the quality. proper replays of ALL important matches were saved and ill pass the links on when theyre uploaded. ill be uploading the three vids i have tonight. japan uses a site similar to youtube called nikoniko, so apparently they have heaps of smash on there. ill get round to looking at some point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-lHW0gyVo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgOtwCEIfbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPIqfbc_Twc
until next time!
official uploads: http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/16774001
UPDATE 28/12/09: Crews Tournament
part 2 of the tournament. this time we were in crews of 3. they have some funny rules here though...
- each match starts with 3 stock. they dont keep track of stock in crew battles like we do in the west. so it is very possible for one person to beat an entire team, despite losing multiple stocks to multiple players. silly rule.
- stage selection rules are the same as the bracket system from the day before. losing player's team then selects the port and stage (out of SV, BF and FD).
- only one of each character per team.
- 4 rounds of pools, then a top 16.
- single elimination bracket only.
in the end, it was all won by a **** ice climber player, kakera. have never seen anyone either play or chaingrab like him. watch the vids please. hes freakin amazing and won the grand finals all by himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT_gwiTms6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsb78o6mHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETpefbuzrYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR5b6W1cJhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pfhQa2Ie_0
didnt see any **** pits or anything today either. had a few friendlies with shuu... man he's awesome at the ditto. crazy good grenade work.
actually, talking to the japanese people about americans... they do think they play a lot slower, but a lot more cautiously. fewer mistakes mean less chance to punish. which i suppose works. apparently they think Souther plays like an american: aggressive and fast. and cheap. lol.
i probably have more to say, but im tired; its been a long two days.
UPDATE - 14/02/10: House meet.
It's been a while, but I did manage to play some more japanese smash. not much to say cause it was just a house meet, but it was lots of fun; and RAIN and BOMBSOLDIER were present. and yes, before anyone asks, BS still plays melee. just not as well as he used to (the scene is basically dead). and we wont be going to apex 2. just putting it out there.
BS does demonstrate (at least to me) why MK trashes snake. recovering is just too hard; his edgeguarding is the best ive seen. dunno what they hell he was doing on the ground though.
Oh, and Japan now loves Duelist Pro. ive created a monster. so much fun though.
I'll probably play next week and then I'm off home to Australia. Will be keeping in touch with most of the cooler smashers, though. and i should still be providing vids of Japanese Smash also. enjoy.
heaps of new vids on my channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssbbshmot
peace out.
Since arriving, I make an effort to locate nearby smashers, and learn the Japanese way of doing things. Our scenes have always been so separate; obviously language playing a part. But it wasn't until I began playing some of the more high ranking players that I started realizing how underdeveloped the Western metagame really is.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at anybody, or saying that Western pros are actually that good, but rather, that the Japanese do a bunch of things that we don't, and if we integrated their metagame with ours, then competitive smash would be taken to an entire new level.
So basically in this thread, I would like to discuss the differences between the Eastern and Western brawl metagames. Firstly, the Japanese Tier List:
http://www.sekieigym.com/rankingX.html
S+: Metaknight
S: Snake
A: Falco, Pit, Marth, Fox, Wario, Diddy, King Dedede
B: Olimar, Game and Watch, Zelda/Shiek, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, ROB
C: Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, Pikachu
D: Donkey Kong, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Mario
E: Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi
F: Ganon, Samus, Falcon, Sonic, Jigglypuff
Important to note here that Japan doesn't have an SBR or similar, so there are numerous tier lists floating about, although they are all very similar (this is one that a smasher I know created).
Main differences here are that Fox and Pit are really quite high, Ice climbers are low, and Sonic has been completely rejected. But why?
I actually spent most of today playing with Yui (regarded as the best fox in Japan if not the world), and quite frankly, got obliterated. I'm not a noob but any stretch (one of the best in Australia, in fact), but he crapped all over me. Short hop laser forces an approach from most characters, nair is amazing for setting up combos/strings/gimps, and he's constantly on the move. Admittedly I really didn't know the matchup and started adjusting after a time, he would still connect hits completely across the stage and score incredible amounts of damage without me touching the ground. And shield a hit and use usmash to finish. Quite frankly, I've never seen/experienced anything like it. Fox is a character with amazing potential, although he is willing to admit that Pikachu is rather, impossible. Pikachu isn't especially popular in Japan though (MK and Marth are everywhere, and both can shut down Pikachu quite well), so this is why Yui can get away with maining Fox. That being said, we seconds an amazing MK and Snake, so cps are too much of an issue.
I am yet to play Masashi, so I can't really comment on Pit too correctly at this time. Although I do know that he ledges like crazy, and camps like nobodies business, making all matchups winnable to some extent. Pit doesn't have a counter in the same way as Fox does, mind you.
Ice climbers... When you're as perfect as they are, you don't get grabbed. Perfect spacing and auto-cancelling, and you can slowly chip Nana away until there is only Popo left. They don't rate Ics very highly because they don't really have any grab setups, so they can really only get a grab if the opponent makes a mistake. Play the game everyday all day and you wouldn't make mistakes either. Not to mention, with good SDI quite a number of players can SDI through blizzard and counter with some aerial. MK really ***** them if you rknow how to do this properly.
And Sonic, I don't know cause I don't care too much for him. I'll find out if someone really wants me too...
And just in general, some of the things they do are quite incredible and I haven't seen then done by any Western players. There was one guy I was watching a couple of weeks ago (he mains random) using Marth and versing an MK, and he consistently (like, 9 times out of 10) sweetspotted a Dolphin Slash while trapped in MK's tornado. And they do this sort of crazy stuff all the time. AND if I get footstooled out of my cypher recovery at the bottom of the screen one more time I think I'm gonna scream.
But yeah, I left my recording equipment back home, so until my brother sends it to me, I don't have videos. Will hopefully start putting some up around Christmas though.
And if there is anything anyone wants to ask me about the Japanese scene, or something you want me to ask them (my Japanese is pretty good) feel free.
Until then.
UPDATE 27/12/09: TSUDANUMA RANDOM BATTLE
yes, i went to my first japanese tournament today. before i go into details about the players, i would first like to discuss some of the different rules and format they have. some of it is good, some, not so good...
- 5 rounds of 'pools' by where winners verse winners and losers verse losers. top half qualify for 'A' bracket. bottom half qualify for 'B' bracket.
- for 'pools', characters and ports are selected by agreement on a matchup. this is stupid.
- random stages here are FD, SV and BF. because they do not believe the game's algorithms to be properly random, the stage is chosen out of a hat by a TO. this stage applies to everyone that round. there is no stage cancelling here.
- 'pools' are consistuted of one round. try not to sd...
- after 5 rounds, the top half go into the 'A' bracket, and the bottom half in the 'B' bracket. seeding is used to organize within the brackets.
- 'A' bracket is a double elimination bracket, but are all 1 round except for winners' final, losers' final and the grand final. those matches are best of 3.
- 'B' bracket is single elimination, constituted of 1 round matches (except for the grand final, which is best out of 3). once again, try not to sd...
- the stage rules for both 'A' and 'B' brackets are the same. players do rock-paper-scissors before they start. the winning player bans a stage (out of FD, SV and BF), chooses their preferred port and chooses their character second. the losing players picks the stage out of the remaining two. once again, very dangerous when its 1 round only. i lost because i lost rock-paper-scissors...
- stages for counterpicking for those matches that involve best out of three are only out of FD, BF and SV. the stupid 'not picking a stage youve already won on' rule doesnt exist here.
- mk/pit are only allowed to fly under the stage once per time theyre off the edge. after flying under the stage, they are not allowed to do so again until they have STOOD on the stage (not ledge grabbed).
- you arent allowed to change your controls (i got screwed over here). the reason for this (i was told) is that it takes too much time. but given that you cant even do it in the grand final, i do not think this is the case.
- in order to discourage timing out, not only is the timer 10 minutes, but also, in the match ends in a time up, you play sudden death (lol). although this did result in the best finish to a match ive ever seen.
- all wiis and tvs are turned off during winners', losers' and grand finals. this creates a massive crowd and massive hype.
- this particular tourney had 96 entrants.
ok, so with that out of the way, the tournament itself. most of the popular ones were present: rain, brood, L, disk, bombsoldier to name a few. in the end, the tourney was won by a toon link in two sets (named Smasher). he was actually freakin amazing.
one of the main things i noticed straight away is how many underused characters are actually used in japan. im not sure about america, but in australia at least, probably 2/3 of the characters used are from the top (half) of the tier list. in japan, this appeared not to be the case. lots of ike (so much ike), lucario, bowser and other characters of the same level. that being said, everyone can use mk, and they generally choose to at the first sight of ice climbers...
another thing i noticed was the complete lack of pikachu. out of 96 people, i didnt see a single one. marth seems to be everywhere, however, so perhaps that is why. there was one really **** sheik but i cant remember his name... Asu, maybe?
sorry pit fanboys, no decent pits were present. although after talking with the guys, it seems that pit is ONLY high on the tier list because masashi seems to do really well with him. they do think all his top tier matchups are 60:40 or better for him, but no one does well with him besides masashi.
yui on the other hand was out and proud, although he was the only fox i actually saw. he beat rain (fox v falco) i rather nice style, and (from memory) came top 4. although i do have on good authority that hes an absolute doosh though (rain wins here).
omg, olimar was everywhere. and theyre so good with him. best oli (Brood) beat the best snake in a best of three. 2 stocked. not sure why he's so popular, but as a snake main, i find it horrible.
best ice climber goes by the title of kakera. it looked like he was buffering standard dthrow/bthrow chaingrabs. ive never seen anyone throw so fast... hes totally ****. doesnt go to tourneys often though.
contrary to popular belief, the official best snake in japan is actually 'shuu', and he happened to be present. very campy but also super pro at edgeguarding in unique ways... and he approaches mk backwards
and the recognized best smasher in japan is actually 'akira', an mk from osaka. not present unfortunately.
in general, japanese smash is very cautious and campy, yet simple, at least, this is how they see themselves. the sudden death rule meanings there is no benefit in timing out your opponent, instead, if someone is not approaching, it is because they cant do so without endangering themselves. to me, this results in a rather slow style of play, but a much less gay one. it creates a different kind of smash, and quite frankly, i think i prefer it.
as for the sudden death i saw, a kirby timed out an ice climber player by platform camping on smashville. that being said, the kirby was grabbed and at 100% when the timer went off. in sudden death, kirby but the grab and used an uthrow, sending popo to his doom off the top. but not before nana killed kirby with an nair. lol ****.
and yeah, i came 4th in 'b' bracket. too many characters im not used to. after lots of friendlies, i can now take japan's 8th best player's mk about 50% of the time, and his diddy almost all the time. not used to other characters though, making japanese tournaments really difficult. i think in this sense, wifi is actually a good thing, cause you can get some matchup experience from all characters, instead of hoping that youve got 35 different friends who all have different mains and live within walking distance. poor australia lol.
there is a crew tournament i will be attending tomorrow. because i applied so late, i dont even know who im teaming with. so ill get trashed. hahaha.
i think thats about all. oh wait, i took some videos! these are from my camera, so excuse the quality. proper replays of ALL important matches were saved and ill pass the links on when theyre uploaded. ill be uploading the three vids i have tonight. japan uses a site similar to youtube called nikoniko, so apparently they have heaps of smash on there. ill get round to looking at some point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-lHW0gyVo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgOtwCEIfbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPIqfbc_Twc
until next time!
official uploads: http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/16774001
UPDATE 28/12/09: Crews Tournament
part 2 of the tournament. this time we were in crews of 3. they have some funny rules here though...
- each match starts with 3 stock. they dont keep track of stock in crew battles like we do in the west. so it is very possible for one person to beat an entire team, despite losing multiple stocks to multiple players. silly rule.
- stage selection rules are the same as the bracket system from the day before. losing player's team then selects the port and stage (out of SV, BF and FD).
- only one of each character per team.
- 4 rounds of pools, then a top 16.
- single elimination bracket only.
in the end, it was all won by a **** ice climber player, kakera. have never seen anyone either play or chaingrab like him. watch the vids please. hes freakin amazing and won the grand finals all by himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT_gwiTms6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsb78o6mHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETpefbuzrYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR5b6W1cJhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pfhQa2Ie_0
didnt see any **** pits or anything today either. had a few friendlies with shuu... man he's awesome at the ditto. crazy good grenade work.
actually, talking to the japanese people about americans... they do think they play a lot slower, but a lot more cautiously. fewer mistakes mean less chance to punish. which i suppose works. apparently they think Souther plays like an american: aggressive and fast. and cheap. lol.
i probably have more to say, but im tired; its been a long two days.
UPDATE - 14/02/10: House meet.
It's been a while, but I did manage to play some more japanese smash. not much to say cause it was just a house meet, but it was lots of fun; and RAIN and BOMBSOLDIER were present. and yes, before anyone asks, BS still plays melee. just not as well as he used to (the scene is basically dead). and we wont be going to apex 2. just putting it out there.
BS does demonstrate (at least to me) why MK trashes snake. recovering is just too hard; his edgeguarding is the best ive seen. dunno what they hell he was doing on the ground though.
Oh, and Japan now loves Duelist Pro. ive created a monster. so much fun though.
I'll probably play next week and then I'm off home to Australia. Will be keeping in touch with most of the cooler smashers, though. and i should still be providing vids of Japanese Smash also. enjoy.
heaps of new vids on my channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssbbshmot
peace out.
