The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

[solecalibur]

First of all, fix your "there," "their," and "they're." Unlike many other things, there actually is a big difference so your post was annoying to make sense out of.

Second of all, where did you hear that Japan banned infinites?

I was I was foreign so I could use the excuse "My english is bad"
but I've heard from most people and a couple random threads here and there (Im sure you know other wise)

 

[DanGR]

It's silly to attempt to compare the U.S.' metagame to Japan's. Until some of their top players come over here, or vice versa, we can only speculate. Speculation gets us nowhere.

I'd like more details about is this, personally:

Not to mention, with good SDI quite a number of players can SDI through blizzard and counter with some aerial. MK really ***** them if you know how to do this properly.

Am I wrong to say that the top American players aren't doing this to a great extent?

The OP's comments about Japanese players' "perfect spacing" is an assertion that can't be substantiated right now. A statement about their ability to SDI perhaps could be backed up.

I'm not trying to compare each nations' players to one another. <_<
I'm just here to learn.

edit: Fixed. ;P

 

[Shaya]

We don't have the number of players in Australia like they do in the States that promotes such diversity, and hence a much more challenging tournament experience.

Australia sucks compared to America though. No doubt about that. I'm also one of Australia's best and I got 64th at Genesis and 17th at Evo.

 

[M@v]

Fox being high on their tier list has been brought up before. We have already said here its because of the lack of Fox's 3 **** matchups there. Pika and sheik are not popular because of all the Marths running around there, and ICs just isn't popular there, and seems the japanese haven't exploited their massive potential. Yeah fox can camp and has nice combos, but landing the first hit of those combos due to garbage approaches is where fox suffers. Also, the predictablility of HOW he is going to kill you. I can see fox being B tier material(by our tier list standards), not much higher. He can be Good, but not an elite character.
Fox can be viable under 3 conditions:
a. your area is lacking in those 3 bad fox matchups.
b.you got a good secondary with fox your very comfortable with.
c. your extremely comfortable with fox on many stages.

B tier characters are viable and can still win tourneys, but face much more uphill battles than say an S tier.

 

[Meru.]

Can anyone explain to me why Peach is so low?

 

[Conviction]

Because she is a princess lol.

M@V I don't see many Pika's or Shieks either here >.>soooo your point?

 

[Palpi]

We can still realize a characters ability to get counter-picked, and take that into consideration when creating the tier list.

 

[Conviction]

If that's your case why hasn't this been implicated in Japan?

See what I'm saying?

 

[Palpi]

Yeah man I see what you are saying.

Maybe they think that because of the lack of those hard counters, it is insignificant.

 

[DanGR]

If that's your case why hasn't this been implicated in Japan?

See what I'm saying?

Quite simply because they view tier lists differently. If we took the same things to heart then our tier lists would look more identical, I'd be willing to bet.

 

[Conviction]

Could be.... Quick question that will help me understand something really quick. If a character makes A lot more tourny results than other character can that be higher on tier than said character? If so, that maybe explain Japan.

 

[Matador]

Not necessarily on our tier list, maybe theirs.

Link is higher than Fox right now on the tourney rankings list, but I doubt he'll pass him.

 

[Conviction]

Ok I understand that but here is my perfect example against this.

Wolf has 2 bad match-ups
Fox has three.

2/3 of Foxes bad match-ups almost never show at tournies

2/2 of Wolves do.

Fox is higher on Tier List.

 

[-Mars-]

For those who wanted to see a Japanese Zelda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2BPSq1x-n8

 

[Matador]

Just because I don't like flipping between tabs...
American to Japan Tier list differences:

1. (=)_______________ 13. (+9)_____________25. (+5)
2. (=)_______________14. (+1) ___________26. (-1)
3. (+1)______________15. (-3 )_____________27. (=)
4. (+14)_____________16. (-5)_____________28. (+8)
5. (+3)______________17. (-1)____________29. (+3)
6. (+16)_____________18. (-5)______________30. (+1)
7. (-4)_______________19. (-5) _____________31. (-11)
8. (-3) ______________ 20. (-11)_____________32. (+5)
9. (-3)_______________21. (-3)______________33. (-1)
10. (=)_______________22. (-3)_____________34. (-1)
11. (-3)_______________23. (+5) ____________35. (-12)
12./:shiek: ( Approx. +13) _24. (+5)____________36. (-2)​

Note: The lists are relative to the characters around them. For example, Ness is recoreded as "+1" even though he really didn't move. Also, our list has 37 entrants while this one has 36 because Zelda and Sheik count as one spot.​

 

[Conviction]

Ok I understand that but here is my perfect example against this.

Wolf has 2 bad match-ups
Fox has three.

2/3 of Foxes bad match-ups almost never show at tournies

2/2 of Wolves do.

Fox is higher on Tier List.

No one answered this >.>

Just because I don't like flipping between tabs...
American to Japan Tier list differences:

1. (=)_______________ 13. (+9)_____________25. (+5)
2. (=)_______________14. (+1) ___________26. (-1)
3. (+1)______________15. (-3 )_____________27. (=)
4. (+14)_____________16. (-5)_____________28. (+8)
5. (+3)______________17. (-1)____________29. (+3)
6. (+16)_____________18. (-5)______________30. (+1)
7. (-4)_______________19. (-5) _____________31. (-11)
8. (-3) ______________ 20. (-11)_____________32. (+5)
9. (-3)_______________21. (-3)______________33. (-1)
10. (=)_______________22. (-3)_____________34. (-1)
11. (-3)_______________23. (+5) ____________35. (-12)
12./:shiek: ( Approx. +13) _24. (+5)____________36. (-2)​

Note: The lists are relative to the characters around them. For example, Ness is recoreded as "+1" even though he really didn't move. Also, our list has 37 entrants while this one has 36 because Zelda and Sheik count as one spot.​

Ahh I see but Lol we got plus 16 and Sonic -12. Seeing the difference I like seeing double digit numbers for some reason.

 

[masterdrenin]

This list is ****ing badazz yee ;D

 

[-Mars-]

TBH I really don't like it when people group Sheik & Zelda together considering most Sheik players don't touch Zelda and she really in no way makes Sheik any better.

Edit: Hai Drenin!

 

[Conviction]

Some explain what I said please T.T

 

[Flayl]

What irks me is instead of discussing tournament placements or play styles you all went straight for the tier list.

And then commenced to make assumptions about it based on nothing.

Methinks a lot of people here need to straighten out their priorities.

 

[Palpi]

What irks me is that you are in no way leading this discussion in any direction, just criticizing its flaws, that you are willingly allowing to occur.

 

[Matador]

Ok I understand that but here is my perfect example against this.

Wolf has 2 bad match-ups
Fox has three.

2/3 of Foxes bad match-ups almost never show at tournies

2/2 of Wolves do.

Fox is higher on Tier List.

This may be the trend. It's hard to say without actually seeing if the Fox metagame there is more developed or if they simply don't face their horrid matchups as often.

What irks me is instead of discussing tournament placements or play styles you all went straight for the tier list.

And then commenced to make assumptions about it based on nothing.

Methinks a lot of people here need to straighten out their priorities.

Everything we'd discuss would be based on nothing...we don't know much about their metagame in Japan.

All of the videos posted are nearly a year old or more, and we barely have any placements or names.

 

[Conviction]

Actually there is some talk about Play styles earlier on that I made.

Summarize what I said earlier about Playstyle

I think in US we say Fox has killing potential..
But in Japan I believe they've change that killing potential in killing ability.


EDIT: also it appears on American tier list.

 

[Palpi]

We've also noticed that killing ability and countered with shielding ability. =]

 

[Flayl]

What irks me is that you are in no way leading this discussion in any direction, just criticizing its flaws, that you are willingly allowing to occur.

Are you aware how much of a hypocrite this post makes you? Also I did contribute, I'm telling people to stop making conjectures and go look up facts.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Lmfao Pit's placement in Japan. US where you at?

 

[Kinzer]

Because she is a princess lol.

M@V I don't see many Pika's

You have no idea how rampant Pikachu is running about.

 

[LuigiKing]

Oh god why do they hate luigi so much?

 

[CRASHiC]

Oh god why do they hate luigi so much?

because Marth is so frequently used.

 

[JOE!]

wow, ICs are terribly low...

I wonder how it'd change if one of our Infinite-grab IC mains just went over and broke their honor code with it...

 

[Conviction]

We've also noticed that killing ability and countered with shielding ability. =]

BUT that could be applied to many things my friend sooo.... come up with a better idea.

 

[ErikG]

wow, ICs are terribly low...

I wonder how it'd change if one of our Infinite-grab IC mains just went over and broke their honor code with it...

Victory > Honor.

 

[LaIotun]

Lol, just watched some Masashi vids, wow, so much planking. He doesn't even do any of Pit's arrow or wing techs. America has much better Pits than that imo.

Pit is a very simple character, and he focuses on clean technical execution

Don't know where im going with this.....hmmm....people are probably being fooled by flashy, pointless techniques

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Lmfao Pit's placement in Japan. US where you at?

In victory land where we play gay to win.

 

[Flayl]

In victory land where we play gay to win.

Stop making dumb assumptions and go read about Masashi's playstyle.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Stop making dumb assumptions and go read about Masashi's playstyle.

...What?

I'm talking about America, and I was joking. Get that stick out of your ***, man.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I am not really patriotic by any means, but this assumption that Japan has magically completely evolved beyond our metagame is ludicrous. The metagames are DIFFERENT, but there is no reason to assume that they are any more skilled or less skilled than we are. Let's face it, Brawl is not deep enough for such disparities to exist. Being Asian is not a superpower.

It's fairly evident that their tier lists are not based on killing potential, either. For instance, Luigi dropped so *low*, and he has near guaranteed early kills with well spaced jab cancelled Up+B. Same thing with DK. Also, Pit is not an easy character to kill with.

Pit is a very simple character, and he focuses on clean technical execution

Clean, technical planking.

 

[MrEh]

Being Asian is not a superpower.

I lol'ed. I wish it was true though. I might actually win some money for once.

Many of our character's metagames are underdeveloped due to being underplayed (Pit, Zelda, Sheik, Wolf

We can actually exclude Zelda from that list. Zelda is just as bad as everyone thinks she is. lol

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I lol'ed. I wish it was true though. I might actually win some money for once.

Inorite?

We can actually exclude Zelda from that list. Zelda is just as bad as everyone thinks she is. lol

But Din's Fire is overpowered! I actually have to press the R button to not get hit by it...

 

[Browny]

I find it ironic how in that MK vs MK vid, despite it being so incredibly flashy, the first KO to end the stalemate was a charged fsmash of all things... then the 3rd and 4th low % KO's should never have happened and would have been completely avoidable if both players didnt put themseleves in such an indredibly risky position where the result was obvious :/

Also I said it before in aus thread, this list is VERY similar to a pure rankings list. if you see australias character rankings list youll notice its practically the same. tons of characters are within +/- 5 of their position on the american list but some chars can be +/- 15-20 entire places because of being massively overused for some reason, a few good players using one char (remember aus only has like 7 regular tournies a month) and some characters being very underused, EXACTLY like luigi and IC's.

The japanese tier list holds no weight to me. Not until we know exactly how they formed it, it seems far too heavily biased on tourney results, indicative of that of a country with few top players (compared to USA)