Why do people think FD should be a CP?

There's nothing wrong with the stage. Nothing gets in the way, and it's just a nice, simple stage. And people should be able to get around the "anvil edges" by now uness you have a ****ty recovery like link.

"Fighting on Final Destination is often quite straightforward, as there are no platforms or hazards on the stage. Projectile combat is often employed because it is always a straight shot at your opponent. Characters without projectiles are often forced to go on the offensive against those with projectiles to negate the range advantage that said projectiles give."

Final Destination is the best stage for a lot of characters (such as Diddy Kong) but most notably Ice Climbers who are basically completely ridiculous on it. In general, Final Destination is a chaingrabber's paradise; its popularity is somewhat bizarre in light of that.

I don't have a problem with FD as a starter, but stages like Halberd that help different types of characters need to be included too if it is. It's kinda ridiculous with the currently trendy starter lists how characters like Ice Climbers get really huge advantages on some of the starters and are generally looking at a list of their best stages while characters like Mr. Game & Watch are just looking at a list of their worst stages and only have to avoid the ones like Final Destination that are especially awful for them. When they meet it's especially bad with the stage striking; one side is forced to strike ridiculously skewed stages while despairing that there are more skewed stages than the player is able to strike while the other side strikes anything remotely close to fair in the matchup knowing that a fair stage is the worst possible outcome no matter what gets struck. You end up with a not very fair stage. If you included more stages as starters, at least characters like Ice Climbers would have to actually use their strikes to protect themselves the way every other character does against them so you'd end up on a more likely fair stage...

The other solution, which I think a lot of us are bringing up just out of frustration at the adamant refusal of certain elements to include more stages despite the dire consequences for some characters, is to just remove Final Destination as a starter. It's really not a great solution since it further encourages moving down to an even lower number of starters which ultimately still is really stacked in ICs and such favor even if their best stage in the game isn't on the list anymore.

smashville for only neutral!! xD

Amazing Ampharos said:

The other solution, which I think a lot of us are bringing up just out of frustration at the adamant refusal of certain elements to include more stages despite the dire consequences for some characters, is to just remove Final Destination as a starter. It's really not a great solution since it further encourages moving down to an even lower number of starters which ultimately still is really stacked in ICs and such favor even if their best stage in the game isn't on the list anymore.

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Here is another solution I know has been put forth, but it never really seems to go very far in the minds of people. Custom stages.

I really do not see why custom stages are not widely considered for Brawls list of possible stages.

First reason it could work is that Smash has developed into an online community. Pretty much all connections of one reigon to another is through the internet. What typically sets the standards? Conversation on SWF. Ideas get pooled on SWF, chewed up and refined until it gets spit back out into the real world. Custom stages are things that can fit the same process. They can be duplicated easily and sent out to all people with a wii to play on. So, setting a standard with custom stages would be fairly easy to set-up I would think and spread around.

The reason I see custom stages being particularly good to use is the ability to change, modify and add variety into Smash's metagame. They can also be "fair". They could allow for much more variety in stage neutrals than any other due to extremely few hazards you can put into a custom stage.

I only see good coming from the idea of using custom stages. I really would like to hear some reasons as to why we shouldn't adapt them into the metagame of Brawl.

FD favors long range and chain grabs. I always strike it in tournies, because I hate fighting there.
I also hate those ledges. Easy early death if you screw up

I find it really hard to approach with certain characters on FD, most notably Bowser. If the opponent has projectiles, u have to approach t hem and they get the first chance to counter. It also may seem noobish but everyone makes mistakes and i make a lot of mistakes because of the steeped underside of the stage

I can see how very few people think it should be a counterpick, marth mainers can get trapped under the sides with the UpB ( I know that from experience XD ) , also people who get punished by falco/dedede/ic's and other people who can chain grab ALL the time may think it should be a CP because theyre just plain annoyed.I think it should stay a neutral stage though.

A better question:

Why do TOs always put Lylat Cruise into the Counter-Picks?

It should be a neutral.

It's more balanced than battlefield.

FD is a stage for characters with projectiles due to it's big size and plus it's a stage with no platforms. Just a plain stage which makes spacing easier and camping is more effective due to the big size. That's why Snake, Shiek etc. do good here

FD is in no way, shape or form unfair lol. Just strike it/ban it, it has no random factors or anything that really hinder a player.

The reason some may think of it as just a CP stage is because it is really really good for some characters, like diddy, tl, and ic, but it should stay neutral.

Nihongo-ookami said:

A better question:

Why do TOs always put Lylat Cruise into the Counter-Picks?

It should be a neutral.

It's more balanced than battlefield.

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I agree that stages arbitrarily tilting and gimping people is far more balanced than Battlefield.

Crap, I just replied to an off-topic, no-substance post. Whoops.

How is the fact that a stage tilts or a stage being somewhat random relevant to fairness? Everyone who is good can deal with tilting, and random elements don't tend to be particularly biased one way or another in matchups. Something like "this stage's total lack of platforms or any different vertical levels really discourages jumping around and really encourages chaingrabbing" seems way more important to me.

I mean, most characters versus Ice Climbers HAVE to strike and ban Final Destination. It's just so overwhelmingly positive for them; the only positioning tool you have left to make chaingrabs hard for them is ledgestalling, and there's nothing the stage is going to do to interrupt them once they get going on it. It's not just "really good" for them so much as "it's their best stage in the entire game, including banned stages, and it's a better counterpick for them than most real counterpick stages are for most of the cast". People complain about how much Norfair helps some characters, but no character benefits from Norfair as much as Ice Climbers benefit from Final Destination. Remember now that we're talking about a stage people want to be a starter; shouldn't think shoot off a few red flags? If nothing else, your starter list needs serious counterbalance in it to account for this. I don't understand how this situation could possibly be addressed with "FD is in no way, shape, or form unfair" when Ice Climbers are a character in this game.

Short version: "Seriously, Ice Climbers aren't just good in Final Destination; they are completely ridiculous on Final Destination".

People suggest it should be a counterpick mostly because of camping and chaingrabbing.

Although Ness, Yoshi, and Lucas can get caught under the lips aswell, with practice it's easy to avoid and there really is no reason to make it a cp.

Don't want to get projectile camped? Use a character with a reflector or a better projectile.

Don't want to get chain-grabbed? Stay in the air.

Don't want to get IC chain-grabbed? Projectile camp and/or stay in the air.

UberMario said:

People suggest it should be a counterpick mostly because of camping and chaingrabbing.

Although Ness, Yoshi, and Lucas can get caught under the lips aswell, with practice it's easy to avoid and there really is no reason to make it a cp.

Don't want to get projectile camped? Use a character with a reflector or a better projectile.

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Alternate character options cannot defend a stage legality decision.

Don't want to get chain-grabbed? Stay in the air.

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And if your character doesn't have an air game?

Don't want to get IC chain-grabbed? Projectile camp and/or stay in the air.

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[copypasta]

PK-ow! said:

Alternate character options cannot defend a stage legality decision.

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*cough*DeDeDe and Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege*cough*

The Chain-Grab Gang and the Camping Crew pretty much killed the chances of Green Greens, Distant Planet, Mario Circuit, Green Hill Zone, Bridge of Eldin and Corneria being at least counterpicks. (Although the latter three also have some obstacles that interrupt game play slightly)

If FD gets demoted to cp, then DP and CS should end up banned for similar reasons (chain-grabbing). However that is extreme and I don't think either should change.

PK-ow! said:

And if your character doesn't have an air game?

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There is absolutely no reason not to have a secondary character who can fill the gaps in your mains playstyle.

PK-ow! said:

[copypasta]

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[copypasta]

UberMario said:

*cough*DeDeDe and Delfino Plaza/Castle Seige*cough*

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Cannot defend a legalizing stage legality decision.

*cough*

Thank you.

There is absolutely no reason not to have a secondary character who can fill the gaps in your mains playstyle.



[copypasta]

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Missing the point!

PK-ow! said:

Missing the point!

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The stage(s) being used should play as much into your character decision as your opponent's character. Is there anything wrong with that? You don't chose a character with a cruddy recovery when Rainbow Cruise is cp'd, you adapt. The same is true about Final Destination, although not to the same degree.

People do not know their Falco, Snake, ICs, and Diddy matchups and now they're butthurt.

This is stupid. Do people honestly think FD should be CP or is it just a stage that people don't like and has some problems? PS1 and lylat have gayer ledges than FD. Getting pressure on platforms is just as bad or worse than whatever camp game is on FD.

Well then... I think every stage should be counterpick! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, I don't think FD should be CP because it is one of the most neutral stages there is. Every stage gives advantages and disadvantages to some characters. Let's take lylat for example (Sometimes it's one of the neutrals, that's the TO's choice). The tilting screws many many recoveries up and the platforms make some characters ridiculous (I'm looking at you G&W).

Now Yoshi's Island. A generally accepted neutral. It can mess Ness and Lucas up pretty bad and Ike has the aether + tilted edge glitch.

FD does not play enough of a (dis)advantage on any character to make it CP.

Why should it be a cp?

Because it skews character matchups to a greater extent than most other legal stages. It's fairly simple.

CR4SH said:

Why should it be a cp?

Because it skews character matchups to a greater extent than most other legal stages. It's fairly simple.

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Skews character matchups? How?


You take the two chars.


You match them on a flat stage...... aka the ground.


They fight

It's skews certain character matchups in their favor, like Falco and ICs. That's why you just strike or ban it in a tourney set.

Honestly guys, if your character has THAT much trouble on it, just strike/ban it XD. It leaves room for characters to camp hard core (like mine), but you should know to ban it against certain characters by now. People ban this stage against me 90% of the time >_>

@People getting caught under the lips: I thought this wasn't an issue anymore? I think i've even been screwed by the lip, but this was also when the game first came out. Regardless of your characters recovery, you should have figured out how to avoid the "minor" stage hazard by now >_>.

ITT: People state reasons for the stage strike system, and not for FD being a CP stage.

ITT: People state reasons for adding more stages to the starter list.

bobson said:

ITT: People state reasons for adding more stages to the starter list.

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I'd actually be up for a tourney that used the entirety of NJ's current stage list and just had you strike / CP exclusively from that. It would be interesting to see what stages were used most often out of the strike phase, because right now it essentially boils down to FD, BF, or SV every set.

final destination is overplayed!

Thiocyanide said:

I'd actually be up for a tourney that used the entirety of NJ's current stage list and just had you strike / CP exclusively from that. It would be interesting to see what stages were used most often out of the strike phase, because right now it essentially boils down to FD, BF, or SV every set.

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With even 7 that doesn't happen as the result since I personally strike all three in a lot of matchups (most notably G&W vs MK; FD and Smashville are just stupidly in MK's favor vs G&W, and I like Battlefield the least/think it's the most in his favor out of any remaining five options).


I have experimented with 11 stage striking once on WiFi against a friend of mine who mains Ness (so Ness vs G&W, WiFi lag doesn't matter because stage selection doesn't lag). Our result was, out of FD/BF/Yoshi's/Lylat/Halberd/PS1/SV/PS2/Castle Siege/Delfino/PictoChat that...

We were always going to play game 1 on PictoChat. We both agreed it was a very fair stage in the matchup, and even after playing several games on PictoChat neither of us wanted to change our strikes.

A more thorough analysis would be interesting of course.

It makes camping much more effective, and it's the neutral that can most influence Matchups, more than any other Neutral.

But then again, the other and simplest option is just to strike/ban it, lol.

I would like to point out that "you can just strike/ban it" applies to any hypothetical starter. Next time some of you guys say that PictoChat shouldn't be a starter, remember that you could just strike/ban it...

For that matter, next time you say New Pork City shouldn't be a starter, same thing.

I don't think any of us find that particularly compelling. You need more to an argument for a starter than that is what I think is concluded by that.

Amazing Ampharos said:

I would like to point out that "you can just strike/ban it" applies to any hypothetical starter. Next time some of you guys say that PictoChat shouldn't be a starter, remember that you could just strike/ban it...

For that matter, next time you say New Pork City shouldn't be a starter, same thing.

I don't think any of us find that particularly compelling. You need more to an argument for a starter than that is what I think is concluded by that.

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Thing is, only IC, falco, and diddy are even close to making FD unfair. Everyone else does fine.

NPC ****s up everyone.

NPC actually doesn't mess Jigglypuff up in general.

FD is amazing for ICs, Falco, and Diddy Kong and terrible for Mr. Game & Watch at least, probably others. Anyone who likes to approach from the air has a terrible time against Meta Knight on Final Destination because of how ridiculously favorable to Shuttle Loop abuse the stage is. I mean, Shuttle Loop is that sort of problem on every stage, but the problem is multiplied on Final Destination. It's a terrible stage to use someone King Dedede can chaingrab against King Dedede, especially the characters he can standing chaingrab. For instance, DK vs DDD is a terrible matchup on just about any stage, but the single worst stage for DK in that matchup is probably Final Destination since platforms help him not get grabbed and auto-die, uneven ground can create situations where King Dedede can't infinite him, and sometimes transformations or hazards or something might interrupt infinites which is something DK favors. Final Destination fills Ness and Lucas with total dread; the stage is long and flat which maximizes the grab release chaingrab Marth has (on the not flat Yoshi's Island (Brawl), the grab release isn't even that bad, and they don't have a lot to fear if they avoid having a long expanse of flat stage behind them... only really difficult on Final Destination). Final Destination is also the one stage on which infinites against Wario are a full force threat; most people aren't bold and/or technical enough to go for them, but if I were a Wario main, I'd hate Final Destination due to what Peach/Yoshi/Bowser (maybe others) can do so much more easily there. On that note, Final Destination is probably Yoshi's best stage. I think it's also especially bad for Ganondorf, for whatever little that means.

I see Final Destination as a particularly character skewed stage. Just look at for how many characters and for how many matchups it's either notably good or bad. Is it as skewed as New Pork City? No, of course it isn't. Is it as skewed as PictoChat? Far more skewed really. In terms of how skewed it is, it's in general more in line with stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair in my experience; it just skews the opposite way in most matchups (like, in general, if a matchup really leans one way on RC, it leans just as much the other way on FD... not a strict rule but a good rule of thumb).

Did you just imply that Pictochat was more fair than FD?

No, he stated it. I'm in agreement.

Pictochat is pretty obviously more balanced than FD. All the characters who like Pictochat have at least 2 other legal stages they like better, and all those who don't like it have at least 2 stages they dislike more.

Twilight Prince said:

Pictochat is pretty obviously more balanced than FD. All the characters who like Pictochat have at least 2 other legal stages they like better, and all those who don't like it have at least 2 stages they dislike more.

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This would be true IF there weren't random props that appear in PictoChat.

The clock, the slope, and the wind literally break the game (or rather the fight) and everything else forces you to either camp until it disappears or battle near the edge.