Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Summary will go here. Discuss the Wolf MU here.
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Ness vs. Wolf
- Thread starter Delta-cod
- Start date
I think it's either 55:45, Ness or Wolf. I can't remember. It might be leaning towards Wolf more. When most players think of Wolf, they probably think of his f-smash. It's quick, let's him move from one area to the next and can kill. If the Wolf uses this frequently, use SH > dair. When knocked off the stage, Wolf usually uses his bair to push you further away from the stage. This is threatening in two ways. One, it can get you further from the stage, and two, if you're at high enough percent, it can kill you right off the bat.
When you're recovering, you'll want to play it safe and see what his patterns are. Is he using bair off the stage? If so, attempt an air dodge. If he's baiting you on the stage, go for the edge or over him if possible. That's about all I can think of at the moment. I'll have to play Locke some other time if I get the chance and maybe ask him for some advice.
When you're recovering, you'll want to play it safe and see what his patterns are. Is he using bair off the stage? If so, attempt an air dodge. If he's baiting you on the stage, go for the edge or over him if possible. That's about all I can think of at the moment. I'll have to play Locke some other time if I get the chance and maybe ask him for some advice.
orange/xd
Smash Ace
I think this one is 45:55; Wolf's favor.
Watch out for smashes at high %'s.
Watch out for smashes at high %'s.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Nair Is Your Friend.
orange/xd
Smash Ace
^^^yes
10yeses
10yeses
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Since I actually care a lot about this MU, I'll ask some questions.
What should you do if a Wolf is lasering to camp you?
What should you do it a Wolf is Bair walling you?
What should you do if a Wolf is lasering to camp you?
What should you do it a Wolf is Bair walling you?
xoxokev
Smash Lord
laser camping: run away and psi magnet. don't forget to lag cancel. if you can't run away, approach with with a full hop and nair. nair. nair. nair.
bair wall: i think our fair beats wolf's bair... not so sure about this
blehhhh i can't think right now... but thats what i would do
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Ness' Fair beats Wolf's Bair. I think Wolf's Fair trades with Ness' Fair.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
As a wolf player i'd like to throw my two cents into this discussion, i play a fairly competant ness player almost every night and have noticed quite a few things about this MU
Against ness wolf has to approach, he only has a blaster which you can absorb with your magnet rendering camping a fruitless tactic, as any wolf player knows the best way of approaching is either using Bair or sometimes they might try baiting you in close with retreating fairs, that post above was correct, from my experiance ness' fair beats out the bair but they do exchange hits with wolfs fair, once you get hit that wolf is going to try his best to rack the damage up on you quick, but sometimes they might lead a FF bair into a fsmash at lower percents, pk fire is good for quick damage racking and grabs but its easy to see when you're trying to bait him into getting hit by a fire so the wolf will likely reflect it back at you, i suggest saving it for a surprise at higher %'s so you can get a bthrow kill of or get him offstage.
Against ness wolf has to approach, he only has a blaster which you can absorb with your magnet rendering camping a fruitless tactic, as any wolf player knows the best way of approaching is either using Bair or sometimes they might try baiting you in close with retreating fairs, that post above was correct, from my experiance ness' fair beats out the bair but they do exchange hits with wolfs fair, once you get hit that wolf is going to try his best to rack the damage up on you quick, but sometimes they might lead a FF bair into a fsmash at lower percents, pk fire is good for quick damage racking and grabs but its easy to see when you're trying to bait him into getting hit by a fire so the wolf will likely reflect it back at you, i suggest saving it for a surprise at higher %'s so you can get a bthrow kill of or get him offstage.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
eh. sorry bout the double post, my ps3 is dumb but i thought i'd give another paragraph.
wolf is surprisingly tough to gimp in this mu, try to get him to recover low or if you can hit him with a pk fire offstage, he can scar through the ledges of some stage but this is highly punishable so he probably will only do it once, if that. his flash can spike you or if you're at a higher % (120) the sourspot will kill you. a lot of wolf players dont follow ness offstage cause wolf can have difficulty getting back but if they do they probably wont be bairing, instead they run off, shine you, buffer a jump shine then up b back to safety, at this point ness is screwed, so do your best to avoid being offstage, its very unintelligent to try and outhit ness's recovery blast so he wont try that. umm, little tips, dair can lead into nasty strings on him at lower percents, like uair, fair etc. his shine beats any of your moves, at higher percents dont get grabbed because a grab release into dsmash wont end well for ness.
wolf is surprisingly tough to gimp in this mu, try to get him to recover low or if you can hit him with a pk fire offstage, he can scar through the ledges of some stage but this is highly punishable so he probably will only do it once, if that. his flash can spike you or if you're at a higher % (120) the sourspot will kill you. a lot of wolf players dont follow ness offstage cause wolf can have difficulty getting back but if they do they probably wont be bairing, instead they run off, shine you, buffer a jump shine then up b back to safety, at this point ness is screwed, so do your best to avoid being offstage, its very unintelligent to try and outhit ness's recovery blast so he wont try that. umm, little tips, dair can lead into nasty strings on him at lower percents, like uair, fair etc. his shine beats any of your moves, at higher percents dont get grabbed because a grab release into dsmash wont end well for ness.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Ness has to approach Wolf. LOL. Sure he can down b to make ness heal, but Ness can do what to Wolf camping? Shoot a pk fire? Reflected. Fair into Wolf? Shield grabbed and then Wolf can do any move on Ness. Dash grab? Standing grab or jab beats dash grab. Ness can also be shine spiked rather easy. 60-40 Wolf at best.
KRDsonic
Smash Master
I've played this matchup sometimes, probably don't have much experience with it as some other people do though. GoldenAdept pretty much covered it though.
Our way of gimping Ness will be to shine spike him or reflect his PK Thunder (Or simply jump down and get hit by it). Grab release > Dsmash kills Ness pretty early, though from my experiences, Ness has what he needs to space away from grabs. Wolf is pretty hard to grab too so I wouldn't suggest just running around to get a grab > Bthrow, though idk if good Ness players do that. Normally when I play this matchup, I don't use Fsmash at all against Ness. Approaching with Bair walls is just... better. Our fsmash gets punnished too easily by Ness with things like PK Fire, short hop areals, etc.
Edit: @ Seagullman: Ness can space his Fair to not get grabbed... just like Wolf. Also, Ness does not have to approach. Neither does Wolf. Whoever has the highest percent will have to approach. Both characters can make eachother's projectiles useless when they're trying to camp with them, so approaching just comes down to who's least stubborn.
Our way of gimping Ness will be to shine spike him or reflect his PK Thunder (Or simply jump down and get hit by it). Grab release > Dsmash kills Ness pretty early, though from my experiences, Ness has what he needs to space away from grabs. Wolf is pretty hard to grab too so I wouldn't suggest just running around to get a grab > Bthrow, though idk if good Ness players do that. Normally when I play this matchup, I don't use Fsmash at all against Ness. Approaching with Bair walls is just... better. Our fsmash gets punnished too easily by Ness with things like PK Fire, short hop areals, etc.
Edit: @ Seagullman: Ness can space his Fair to not get grabbed... just like Wolf. Also, Ness does not have to approach. Neither does Wolf. Whoever has the highest percent will have to approach. Both characters can make eachother's projectiles useless when they're trying to camp with them, so approaching just comes down to who's least stubborn.
Bartolon
Smash Lord
Yes wolf is hard to grab I experienced that =O
Bair Walls can be a pain for ness, ness is so limited against the bair walls =/
I can't say much more though don't have too much exp against wolf.
Probably 60-40 for wolf
Bair Walls can be a pain for ness, ness is so limited against the bair walls =/
I can't say much more though don't have too much exp against wolf.
Probably 60-40 for wolf
Neither one has to approach and the match could end up being boring. Shooting PK Fire at Wolf will most likely get reflected, but not everybody goes in for a grab. Ness can SH > dair or SH > bair. And as a Ness main, if I pick up that someone likes to block a lot, chances are I'm going to go for a grab instead of using my fair over and over again, which by the way you forgot, can be retreated. And Shine Sparking Ness is possible, but the likeliness is slim. Goldenadept and KDRsonic know what's up. 55:45, Wolf.
What xoxokev, Turbo Ether, and KRD said.
I'd like to throw in all the grounded grab release stuff Wolf can do to Ness: Fsmash (DI up to get out of the 2nd hit), ftilt, dtilt, jab (if you break close), dsmash (watch out for this at kill %s), and *gasp* regrab. Regrab has to be buffered perfectly though, I believe. But I don't think Ness players are in the habit of getting grabbed often anyways
Probably 55-45 or 60-40 Wolf, I'd say. Fair and nair are really annoying x_x
I'd like to throw in all the grounded grab release stuff Wolf can do to Ness: Fsmash (DI up to get out of the 2nd hit), ftilt, dtilt, jab (if you break close), dsmash (watch out for this at kill %s), and *gasp* regrab. Regrab has to be buffered perfectly though, I believe. But I don't think Ness players are in the habit of getting grabbed often anyways
Probably 55-45 or 60-40 Wolf, I'd say. Fair and nair are really annoying x_x
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
Ness doesn't hunt for grab.
The killing bthrow just means that Ness becomes Ice Climbers at mid percents.
And Ness' FAir only beats Wolf's BAir if you disregard how the Wolf is going to use it when it will come out sooner than Ness can attack.
Ness' FAir is a lot of commitment. If Wolf baits it, you're gonna get ripped to pieces.
Wolf has **** ground game, and everything he could ask for everything else.
And kills you really early.
The killing bthrow just means that Ness becomes Ice Climbers at mid percents.
And Ness' FAir only beats Wolf's BAir if you disregard how the Wolf is going to use it when it will come out sooner than Ness can attack.
Ness' FAir is a lot of commitment. If Wolf baits it, you're gonna get ripped to pieces.
Wolf has **** ground game, and everything he could ask for everything else.
And kills you really early.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Well Wolf can't really regrab as easily as marth. Also Ness loses out his aerials to Jumpshine in all ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu87vcmBzGU
This vid basically describes what the matchup is like. Though this Wolf is more aggressive then most.
So if Wolf's grab isn't as good as Marth's, then that's just saying that grabbing Ness isn't always going to work. And is that video supposed to prove that the guy is fighting the best Ness? Because he's not the best one out there. He defeated some good MK's, which is great. But after that, people dickride him.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I'm just posting a vid on general what the matchup is basically. Wolf's grab isn't worst then Marths. He just can't regrab easier like Marth can. Generally though I'd rather Fsmash or at killing percents Dsmash.
Yeah, Wolf's d-smash scares me. If you know who Locke is, I've fought his Wolf a number of times and that d-smash gets to me.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Arcpoint=Locke plays an incredibly different way then me.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
**** JJs wolf is sick nasty 
kennypu
Smash Journeyman
most wolfs play aggressive, but there are some out there that rely heavily on bair walls and baiting. but the bair auto-cancel to fsmash or dsmash is nasty, gets me all the time >.>
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Bair>Fsmash is a true combo. Most Wolfs play aggressive like Me, JJ, Kain, etc... But there are campy Wolfs who do good to like Omniswell and Mitsurugi.
KRDsonic
Smash Master
Jumpman is probably the best example of a campy wolf, though he's only gone to one tourny before (and gotten 4th. HOBO 19).
Most Wolfs are agressive though, since he seems to be one of the few characters who does well from playing offensive.
Most Wolfs are agressive though, since he seems to be one of the few characters who does well from playing offensive.
smash64
Smash Champion
i know you do uffe hehe
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
45:55 Wolf. Grab release dsmashes are such a pain, and wolfs Jab and Ftilt can be annoying when they try to follow up after grab releasing. Also When your thrown in the air or up in the air wolfs uair will wreck your dairs. On the good side. Ness' Uair has a lot of priority and comes out faster than wolfs Dair. Uair juggling should be easy at low percentage. I like using Fair Jab in this matchup cause its pretty Safe if fair hits low enough to the ground. I release Wolf of the ledge for a quick Nair or Edgeguard/Edgehog.
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
45:55 Wolf. Grab release dsmashes are such a pain, and wolfs Jab and Ftilt can be annoying when they try to follow up after grab releasing. Also When your thrown in the air or up in the air wolfs uair will wreck your dairs. On the good side. Ness' Uair has a lot of priority and comes out faster than wolfs Dair. Uair juggling should be easy at low percentage. I like using Fair, Jab, Dash Attack, Uair Juggle as a Follow up in this matchup. in this matchup cause its pretty Safe if fair hits low enough to the ground. I release Wolf of the ledge for a quick Nair or Edgeguard/Edgehog. Umm...What about stages to fight Wolf on? I think battlefeild would be horrible. My Retarted internet made me post this twice sorry.
Bartolon
Smash Lord
Man I learned alot about my loss vs wolf this sunday.
Don't go too far in the air stay low or else he will get some bairs in.. and they hurt ;__:
sh fairs should work pretty good I guess?
Don't go too far in the air stay low or else he will get some bairs in.. and they hurt ;__:
sh fairs should work pretty good I guess?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Uhhhhhhhhh. How is that useful at all? Wolf spamming his Dair? That'd be ********.
Wolf can't be released into a Nair. Wolf also is good on every stage except a few. Wolf's good on every neutral, rainbow, brinstar, ps1, etc.. Ps1 just annoys me cause of the lip of the stage.
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
I ment chase him with Nair of the stage. Wolf spaming Dair? First of all. His Dair has bad startup lag and Ending lag. Ness' Uair should catch that easily. Wolf falls fast to the ground. You can't use as many Dairs as you think in the air when hes coming down. Idk about Nair against Ness' Uair or any other aireals. You could probably just get away from them in other directions. Also Ness is good on Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. Taking Ness to brinstar is probably a bad idea because of the extra tools we get. Imo Ness sucks on Ps1. I missed my Pkt2 recovery when i hit the ledge sweet spot b4 and I got grab released easily on the end of the stage with that little line. What was that anyway
KRDsonic
Smash Master
Wolf's shine acts like an air dodge... that damages. Any smart Wolf would shine Ness's Uair instead of trying to Dair it (Unless they time it right, in which case the Ness shouldn't be dumb enough to get hit by it still).
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Obviously we should not spam Wolf Dair. Cause it's so spammable. LOL.
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
Oh. I didn't know about shine. Lulz, Timing it might be hard. I'll try that because I never do shine much when I use Wolf. Shine tricks are smexy. I wonder how useful Dtilt is in this.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Won't beat Shine. Nothing does. It has invincible frames. It guarentees safety when people charge up moves or when coming down in the air.
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
Isay Dtitl vs Wolf. Would you use shine to break it?
KRDsonic
Smash Master
I would use a simple shield, like I do with everyone if Ness Dtilts me. Grounded shines aren't nearly as useful as areal shines.